BER referal fees.

No6 · 18-11-2008 12:30am #1

I was apporached today by a local Auctoineer who asked about doing BERs for existing houses. He then informed me that he would refer all his clients to me for a % fee of my fee. Another assessor had already offered him 15%. I am furious with this type of behaviour which is nothing more than a racket or scam but is it a) in breech of the assesssors code of coduct or b) in breach of the Auctoneers Code of Conduct. I think its very unethical but what do i do about it? suggestions please.

Eurorunner · 18-11-2008 12:54am

It was obvious that something like this was going to happen. However, you can do as you please. Nobodies forcing you to give him a %. Do you believe him when he says hes been offered 15%? Might just be fluff on his part. 15% for turning over a phone number sounds like a lot?
I don't think its an unethical approach on his part - afterall, they're his contacts. Maybe you should be grateful that he's not going and doing them himself. Will be interesting to see how many of them decide to do them themselves. Lets face it, they have little else to be doing at the moment

DOCARCH · 18-11-2008 7:37am

No. 6 - I wouldn't be suprised if he was having you on/trying his luck!

That sort of thing drives me mad!!! I bet you he's not doing very much as he's the sort of guy you wouldn't want to buy a house from!:p

smashey · 18-11-2008 10:27am

What a fcukin tosser. :mad: Unfortunatley, that's what tends to happen in this greedy wee country of ours.

No6, you couldn't get a little tape recorder in your pocket the next time you talk to him?

No6 · 18-11-2008 10:34am

Eurorunner he's not allowed do BER's for his own clients as an auctoneer. I know he's trying his luck but I don't think he's representing his clients very well in this manner. I bet his clients would be delighted with him if they saw on my invoice a big hefty precentage referal fee for him on top of my fee!! My thoughts exactly smashey!!!:D

Eurorunner · 18-11-2008 10:53am

No6 wrote: »

Eurorunner he's not allowed do BER's for his own clients as an auctoneer.

Really? Well, thats good news.

muffler · 18-11-2008 10:54am

There's always someone looking to get a cut of your hard earned money (even the taxman:eek:) but approaches like this are reprehensible.

Personally I'd tell him to go fuck himself and then go round and stick a business card on every "for sale" sign he has up (or through the letterbox if the house is still occupied) with a note stating that you you will charge 10% less than what the auctioneer can arrange it for.

No6 · 18-11-2008 11:03am

muffler wrote: »

There's always someone looking to get a cut of your hard earned money (even the taxman:eek:) but approaches like this are reprehensible.

Personally I'd tell him to go fuck himself and then go round and stick a business card on every "for sale" sign he has up (or through the letterbox if the house is still occupied) with a note stating that you you will charge 10% less than what the auctioneer can arrange it for.

Well the way I see it is I can a) set my fee at about the same level as everyone else and add his percentage on, or b) opperate at a loss and keep the fees at the same level inculding his "cut". a) dosn't do anything for his clients and b) dosn't do anything for me.

Personally I think the go Fu*k option is the best one, I can of course then advertise very loudly that I don't pay any auctoneer referal fees I may starve but at least my reputation will be intact!!

Chimpster · 18-11-2008 12:10pm

Lads,

The domestic BER is going to be a complete jungle.

1. I have experienced auctioneers who are going to 'rate' each others properties.

2. I've sat in front of auctioneers who want 15% per referrel.

3. I've come across a munster based outfit who are reportadly tearing the ar$e off the pricing in this sector.

No6 · 18-11-2008 12:15pm

So what do we do? let the system become corrupt & discredited before it even starts?

smashey · 18-11-2008 12:23pm

I have an idea.

Eamon Ryan (yes, the TD) is a member here. I'll send him a link to this thread and see what he says.

sydthebeat · 18-11-2008 12:26pm

DOCARCH wrote: »

No. 6 - I wouldn't be suprised if he was having you on/trying his luck!

That sort of thing drives me mad!!! I bet you he's not doing very much as he's the sort of guy you wouldn't want to buy a house from!:p

hes not trying his luck...

a local auctioneer that i know very well has already been approached by TWO assessors who have told him that THEY WILL GIVE HIM €100 for every BER he puts their way... these were two separate independant assessors...!!!!

this kind of action disgusts me.

smashey · 18-11-2008 12:30pm

smashey wrote: »

I have an idea.

Eamon Ryan (yes, the TD) is a member here. I'll send him a link to this thread and see what he says.

Pm sent.

Chimpster · 18-11-2008 12:31pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

hes not trying his luck...

a local auctioneer that i know very well has already been approached by TWO assessors who have told him that THEY WILL GIVE HIM €100 for every BER he puts their way... these were two separate independant assessors...!!!!

this kind of action disgusts me.

They must be charging a fair whack to be able to give €100 away in a referell!

Having spoken to auctioneers in around galway in relation to BER you get a real insight into the 'scratch my back' culture that existed in that industry. One can only imagine the scrathing that was going on in the golden years.

sydthebeat · 18-11-2008 1:10pm

Chimpster wrote: »

They must be charging a fair whack to be able to give €100 away in a referell!

Having spoken to auctioneers in around galway in relation to BER you get a real insight into the 'scratch my back' culture that existed in that industry. One can only imagine the scrathing that was going on in the golden years.

all the auctioneer has to do is tell the clients "it will cost in the region of .... (€500 has already been widely accepted as the fee due to SEI on the Last Word)....

a healthy living would be made doing two assessments a day at €400 a pop!!

topcatcbr · 18-11-2008 1:58pm

Check out the Joe Duffy show at 1pm he is talking about BER

sydthebeat · 18-11-2008 3:26pm

anyone listen to this??

what was the general feeling / public sentiment...

sinnerboy · 18-11-2008 3:50pm

Another bloody tax ( Quote - Joe Duffy ) . Punter complaing about "wild price variations in quotes" . Govt choking small businesses at this difficult time . "What does cert DO for you you already know if your house is warm or cold" cries Joe . Ray H is doing his best but has just been asked " are you going to change my light bulbs for me ? " . Big resentment at being "forced into" energy efficiency" .... stuff like that

Hands up - who is surprised ?

topcatcbr · 18-11-2008 3:53pm

Nobody explained that this is not for the landlord but to give prospective tennants information when renting properties or potential purchasers not builders.

Where are SEI for this. Surely they were asked to come on.

No6 · 18-11-2008 4:25pm

sinnerboy wrote: »

Another bloody tax ( Quote - Joe Duffy ) . Punter complaing about "wild price variations in quotes" . Govt choking small businesses at this difficult time . "What does cert DO for you you already know if your house is warm or cold" cries Joe . Ray H is doing his best but has just been asked " are you going to change my light bulbs for me ? " . Big resentment at being "forced into" energy efficiency" .... stuff like that

Hands up - who is surprised ?

I hate to say it but he's probably right, the system was invented when the property market was booming, where another few hundred in BER cert fees here and there wouldn't be missed but now that the bubble has burst it will be seen as another tax, blame the greens!! Personally I think the marketing has been all wrong from day one people still don't know that its a standardised method of comapring energy effeciency, it will not save you money yet (maybe when carbon taxes come in??). Its only a label ( a bit of an expensive designer one perhaps "Guicci BER"):D

DOCARCH · 18-11-2008 4:44pm

Chimpster wrote: »

I have experienced auctioneers who are going to 'rate' each others properties.

I've heard this too. I've heard that most of the big auctioneers have their in in house guys trained up to carry out carry out assessments on a 'I'll scratch your back, etc., basis' for each other.

This came from a guy who had set himself up in Dublin and approached most of the auctioneers and they all said no thanks, we're sorted!

He has since given up and sent back his registration papers to SEI in protest!

The whole thing is a shambles!

ardara1 · 18-11-2008 10:46pm

Trying to push this again folks - why are the DEAP/BER issues buried in RENEWABLE ENERGIES - does it not deserve its own spot under construction?
Mods - are you listening? Would bribery help? :rolleyes:

No6 · 18-11-2008 11:22pm

DOCARCH wrote: »

I've heard this too. I've heard that most of the big auctioneers have their in in house guys trained up to carry out carry out assessments on a 'I'll scratch your back, etc., basis' for each other.

This came from a guy who had set himself up in Dublin and approached most of the auctioneers and they all said no thanks, we're sorted!

He has since given up and sent back his registration papers to SEI in protest!

The whole thing is a shambles!

It would appear to be a race to the bottom alright, every time I think of BER, DEAP or renewables all I can hear is dun dun dun dun dun ........^.......... if you know what I mean

but going back to my original post what is the consensus on what I should do!! Turn down a lot of work (possibly) on the basis that I have a serious ethical question over the retainer being demanded!! or hop into bed with the devil and look after no 1!! :eek:

I was thinking of saying no problem to the referal fee what ever % you want and I'll just put it on my invoice as a seperate item to his client with his name on it!!! His clients will really love him then!!!:D

muffler · 19-11-2008 12:31am

ardara1 wrote: »

Mods - are you listening? Would bribery help? :rolleyes:

It would

I'll talk to Mellor & smashey about this but dont hold out any hope on getting it though.

DOCARCH · 19-11-2008 7:54am

No6 wrote: »

It would appear to be a race to the bottom alright, every time I think of BER, DEAP or renewables all I can hear is dun dun dun dun dun ........^.......... if you know what I mean but going back to my original post what is the consensus on what I should do!! Turn down a lot of work (possibly) on the basis that I have a serious ethical question over the retainer being demanded!! or hop into bed with the devil and look after no 1!! :eek:

I was thinking of saying no problem to the referal fee what ever % you want and I'll just put it on my invoice as a seperate item to his client with his name on it!!! His clients will really love him then!!!:D

I'd look after no. 1 - do what you have to do to get the work (without compromising your integrity/becoming a BER slut!).

Do you have to tell him excatly how much you are going to charge for the certs - I assume he would not have to see your invoices? Suggest a fixed referal fee to him per cert?

Like some auctioneers suggest/expect, tell him that you will be doing certs for E 50* (+ expenses), so at 15% he gets E 7.50 but then you just charge the reaminder as expenses (e.g. E 5 per A4 printed page) :rolleyes:

* I did course on existing dwellings last week - when you get a group of assessors together you hear all sorts of shocking things!!! As suggested above, one assessor got phone call from auctioneer suggesting a great mutual deal - the auctioneer would exclusively get him to do all the BER certs - and he would do them at rate of E 50 per cert. No need to report his answer to that.

No6 · 19-11-2008 10:49am

He will soon hear how much I'll be charging before long, I'm sure some client will complain about it!!, What is the suggested rate for doing existing buildings. I'm going to look at an area based system, ie standard fee for the typical 3 bed semi size, increasing for larger houses!!!

mrgaa1 · 19-11-2008 11:11am

Auctioneers can not rate properties on their own books

smashey · 19-11-2008 11:15am

mrgaa1 wrote: »

Auctioneers can not rate properties on their own books

DOCARCH wrote: »

I've heard this too. I've heard that most of the big auctioneers have their in in house guys trained up to carry out carry out assessments on a 'I'll scratch your back, etc., basis' for each other.

This came from a guy who had set himself up in Dublin and approached most of the auctioneers and they all said no thanks, we're sorted!

He has since given up and sent back his registration papers to SEI in protest!

The whole thing is a shambles!

We know.

No6 · 19-11-2008 11:22am

mrgaa1 wrote: »

Auctioneers can not rate properties on their own books

So instead they are going to take a cut from us!!!:mad:, I suppose I should feel sorry for them it might be the only money they get next year!!

muffler · 19-11-2008 12:16pm

ardara1 wrote: »

Trying to push this again folks - why are the DEAP/BER issues buried in RENEWABLE ENERGIES - does it not deserve its own spot under construction?
Mods - are you listening? Would bribery help? :rolleyes:

Right. We discussed this and it was unanimously agreed that such a sub forum would not be sustainable.

Like every other request along these lines we will of course revisit the matter in a few months again.

No6 · 19-11-2008 12:33pm

Is that the sub forum or just the entire BER system thats unsustainable!!!:D

muffler · 19-11-2008 12:42pm

the whole fucking shebang

No6 · 19-11-2008 12:45pm

I think you're right there!!!:D

topcatcbr · 19-11-2008 12:50pm

Being sustainable is anything but sustainable:P

No6 · 19-11-2008 1:08pm

Maybe we should start a new thread on the Unsustainablility of Sustainability!!!

I'm still waiting for this damn global warming!!:D

sinnerboy · 19-11-2008 1:51pm

On JD show the other day - the punter complaining about "wild variations" in prices for assessments ( never heard of free market economy obviously )

for 60m2 apartment - was qouted €190 ~ €350

topcatcbr · 19-11-2008 2:18pm

Yes i heard this. Interesting that joe took the side of the "poor" landlord who owned 10 properties all rented. Didnt seem to interested in the poor tennent who knows nothing about how energy effecient their potential rental property is untill after contracts are signed. Try to get a landlord to increase insulation levels then.

sinnerboy · 19-11-2008 3:05pm

The big point missed by JD is that cert is not actually ( at point of sale or letting ) produced for the clients benefit at all . It is produced for the information / benefit of the prospective purchaser or tenant .

So the question* is not " why do I need a cert to tell me my house is cold / warm "

It is " is the house I am thinking of buying going to be cold / warm "

(* In JD terms )

No6 · 19-11-2008 3:51pm

And will it be expensive to run!! The rent or Purchase price is one thing the cost of keeping the place warm is another expecially with our lovely damp climate and perpetually freezing Irish women (well my wife anyways!!):D

topcatcbr · 19-11-2008 4:59pm

I sent him an email regarding this yesterday and rang today but it seems he doesnt want to hear this side of the argument. I suppose the truth dosnt make as good radio as outraged landlords. There was another show on the tv that would encourage an argument not JD but JS.

No6 · 20-11-2008 6:45pm

Just to update you on the original post. I also asked the BER association about this issue and they have contacted SEI about it. I am awaiting the results of this contact.

dennistuam · 20-11-2008 8:06pm

i have done the ber course for energy along with fellow auctioneers as a side line feater in cap type sideline but i am beinging to realise along with others that it a joke , first of all the new builds i thought there would be a lot of work from this ,knowing builders that i sold sites for ect but what has happened the aritects and engineers are doing them for free if you choice them to do planning permission ect ,so forget about that
next existing buildings basically the same thing will happen why should joe soap pay for 2 surveys
so basically all that is left is the rental market but there no fear engineers going to have a price war over it
as one auctioneer told me that taxi drivers are coming into his office doing ber certs for gods sake as bad as auctionners are at least we have some experience of dwelling details
the only one making money are the course providers
the auctioneer that taped you for work must be the only one that cannot do it as all my colleges under 40 have done it.he is a chancer

topcatcbr · 20-11-2008 8:36pm

dennistuam wrote: »

i have done the ber course for energy along with fellow auctioneers as a side line feater in cap type sideline but i am beinging to realise along with others that it a joke , first of all the new builds i thought there would be a lot of work from this ,knowing builders that i sold sites for ect but what has happened the aritects and engineers are doing them for free if you choice them to do planning permission ect ,so forget about that
next existing buildings basically the same thing will happen why should joe soap pay for 2 surveys
so basically all that is left is the rental market but there no fear engineers going to have a price war over it
as one auctioneer told me that taxi drivers are coming into his office doing ber certs for gods sake as bad as auctionners are at least we have some experience of dwelling details
the only one making money are the course providers
the auctioneer that taped you for work must be the only one that cannot do it as all my colleges under 40 have done it.he is a chancer

Dennis as an auctioneer you cannot assess dwellings that you have a financial interest in. eg. selling for commision.

sydthebeat · 20-11-2008 8:43pm

dennistuam wrote: »

i have done the ber course for energy along with fellow auctioneers as a side line feater in cap type sideline but i am beinging to realise along with others that it a joke , first of all the new builds i thought there would be a lot of work from this ,knowing builders that i sold sites for ect but what has happened the aritects and engineers are doing them for free if you choice them to do planning permission ect ,so forget about that
next existing buildings basically the same thing will happen why should joe soap pay for 2 surveys
so basically all that is left is the rental market but there no fear engineers going to have a price war over it
as one auctioneer told me that taxi drivers are coming into his office doing ber certs for gods sake as bad as auctionners are at least we have some experience of dwelling details
the only one making money are the course providers
the auctioneer that taped you for work must be the only one that cannot do it as all my colleges under 40 have done it.he is a chancer

it makes complete sense for an agent such as an architect / engineer to be able to provide this as part of their service.....

the may tell a client its free, but of course they would work it into their overall fee...

No6 · 21-11-2008 12:44am

Auctioneers can rate buildings that are not on their books, eg on another auctioneers books but would most Auctioneers want to share clients like that?? You'd probably find his sign board up beside yours the day after the cert has been published!! I do think that taxi drivers and hairdressers etc etc should not have been allowed do the courses in the first place. Some trainers trained everybody who came through the door and also advertised the BER as a whole new career which was very unfair. And yes he's a chancer alright

dennistuam · 21-11-2008 12:21pm

i know there is a code of conduct about conflict of interest but how auctioneers will get around this is have a buddy in auctioneering business in a town say 10 /20 miles away in other words no competition to do it , i all ready have been taped to this ,basically he does all the work on it and i sign off on it, but i told him to get lost because naturally ever house on books is going to be a b1 ,but what will happen to dennis when the new owner of the house gets it redone and it is only d1 , thats right big claim,then the roof will be taken off me

the long and short of its regarding the need for ber assessors is we have been sold a dummy , ie the country needs 3000 asssessors, should have smelt a rat , always the case people getting duped
irish people again down in country we have seen it all before

Mushrooms oh we have a market in england with 60 million need more growers, i know people that are still in debt 10 years after they last seen a mush

Christmas trees growers we have a market for 3 million trees in europe ,again people got caught

so any time you see these opportunitys watch out

but how many taxi drivers and hairdressers will get register, i dont see many

No6 · 22-11-2008 2:52pm

Dennis I expect based on the experience with new houses that a lot of the existing houses assessments will be audited, If you do what was suggested above you'll probably be kicked of the register after a few cases. Dont do it, explain to your collegue that its not worth it in the long run.

davybaby40 · 25-11-2008 9:45pm

Ah well here i was having a look thru google tonight and amazed at the sheer number of energy "experts" out there at the moment ! I've worked in the building trade (electrician by trade ) for years now and to be perfectly honest guys this BER lark is just money for old rope! Saving energy is basic common sense.But as we all know theres nothing "common" about sense any more.How on earth can an auctioneer for example provide any "real world" suggestions above and beyond the usual suggestions of lamp choice , insulation u-values,boiler choice etc ????? The whole system is flawed if SEI think that the consumer is going to get a fair deal here if they are relying on vested interests.While the theory behind the ber scheme is completely admirable , recovering the cost of the review+cert (not to mention the remedial work which may be required to achieve these savings ) in relation to your average home/apartment is just not acheivable, unless you plan to live there for at least 12 years or so.As far as I'm concerned any ber accessor should have to pass some kind of aptitude test BEFORE training.This would guarantee the inspector arriving at your door is really going to be on top of his game .
Just my 2 Cents
Dave

davybaby40 · 25-11-2008 9:49pm

Me again , regarding paying someone for the referrals they pass on to you .Thats business folks.Leads are actually worth something you know.If your good at what you do , the lead will generate further "word of mouth" customers.So your 15% one off payment can lead to unlimited jobs.
Dave

No6 · 26-11-2008 10:52am

Dave I think you've missed the point on the referal fees, the 15% is on every BER cert carried out for that Auctioneer, so essentially he's imposing an additional 15 to 20 % on the cost of doing a BER cert on his own clients. I'm very hopeful that SEI will definitively clarify this issue soon and outlaw it. You've also missed the point on the BER cert's they are for the Buyer, or renter so they can compare the efficency of the houses they are going to buy or rent, if they buy or rent a B rated house as opposed to a G rated house they are going to save money in running it as it will be more efficient. If you are selling or renting houses and you get poor ratings you may want to consider improving the houses and the ratings to make it more attractive to the market. Saving energy may be common sense but we havn't been to sensible over the last number of years.

motherfunker · 29-11-2008 9:11pm

No6 wrote: »

So what do we do? let the system become corrupt & discredited before it even starts?

A bit late for that I think!

BER referal fees.

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