BER referal fees.

mrgaa1

just received this today - not too sure how the UK version works but.....

As one of the UK’s leading EPC providers we are delighted to announce our new pricing structure effective from January 1st 2009
EXISTING DWELLING RESIDENTIAL EPCs

£43.00 Plus VAT
We have a National Team and already provide over 3,000 EPCs per month to some of the UK’s major estate agents, letting agents and social housing landlords. Our online work management system makes the instruction and management of EPCs extremely easy to manage.
NEW BUILD EPC's
Residential developments; over 20 units £39.00 plus VAT includes SAP, PEA and On Construction EPC
www.epcassessments.co.uk

PYRO#1

dennistuam wrote: »

i know there is a code of conduct about conflict of interest but how auctioneers will get around this is have a buddy in auctioneering business in a town say 10 /20 miles away in other words no competition to do it , i all ready have been taped to this ,basically he does all the work on it and i sign off on it, but i told him to get lost because naturally ever house on books is going to be a b1 ,but what will happen to dennis when the new owner of the house gets it redone and it is only d1 , thats right big claim,then the roof will be taken off me

Thats a disgrace!!!:mad:
They will end up stabbing each other in the back anyway! One guy will be selling a house nearby and he will give the other guy a bad rating on his house so he can sell his own, hahahaha

They shouldn't be let anywhere near these certs, its a complete conflict of interest for auctioneers!!! They shouldn't even refer people to accessors, its crazy. They are paid on a percentage of the sale and a ber cert with a high rating adds value. Is this not the case???

Its like your doctor referring you to an undertaker after he tells you, you have six weeks to live:D

topcatcbr

mrgaa1 wrote: »

just received this today - not too sure how the UK version works but.....

As one of the UK’s leading EPC providers we are delighted to announce our new pricing structure effective from January 1st 2009
EXISTING DWELLING RESIDENTIAL EPCs

£43.00 Plus VAT
We have a National Team and already provide over 3,000 EPCs per month to some of the UK’s major estate agents, letting agents and social housing landlords. Our online work management system makes the instruction and management of EPCs extremely easy to manage.
NEW BUILD EPC's
Residential developments; over 20 units £39.00 plus VAT includes SAP, PEA and On Construction EPC
www.epcassessments.co.uk

They are different systems with different levels of work.
It takes approx 1 hr for an existing dwelling EPC including survey and report in the UK. And this price is in high density urban aeas where there is little or no travel involved. An assessor would expect to do 7 or 8 in a day. It costs £10inc Vat. for the assessor to lodge the report. Min wage in UK is £5.73ph
Average Industrial Wage in Uk £17123 PA

In ireland it takes approx 5 or 6 hours to do existing dwelling and report as a higher level of detail is required also there is usually a greater distance to travel required. Making it only possible to do 2 a day. It costs the assessor €30.25inc Vat to lodge the report here. Min wage in ireland €8.65ph. Average Industrial Wage in Ireland €32431 PA

legs akimbo.

When I undertook the new dwellings course back in March I approached two auctioneers I knew well about doing their BER's. The first has been true to her word and I will be doing hers, and with a referal fee, of which I have no problem. The second auctioneer, I explained what it was all about and the time frames and legislation etc etc etc, spent a good whille explaining to him all the details of energy assessing and again he said he would be happy for me to do all his dwellings ...then.....a few weeks later his auctioneers were runnining courses training up prospective BER assessors.
He then approached every auctioneer in town to undertake his courses so that they could keep the whole shooting match tied up amongst themselves. He approached my first auctioneers on a number of occasions as she was the only one not playing ball but she had promised me the work and was and is quite happy with the arrangement.
I was pretty much put out at the second auctioneers underhand methods but hey they are auctioneers so no surprise there. I can assure you that this is episode is quite true,the first auctioneer is a very good friend ( the referal is out of her hands its how they work in her fathers business) the second auctioneer is my wifes cousin, nice of him wasnt it.

dennistuam

i got a phone call from a buddy of mine that just today got word he got merits in new building course and there is a place for him for the existing dwellings,
i congradulated him, then he started to laugh then he told me that he started the course in june 08 but at 11 o clock on the first day he was out of his depth and jacked it in, still he got his exam result with a merit,
just what i felt was going on all along the biggest swindle of all time .there is free reign get them apes in fleece them and when they come to sei course in june next year the only ones that will pass will be engineers ect
eddie hobbs or duffy should be told

sinnerboy

dennistuam wrote: »

eddie hobbs or duffy should be told

Duffy is too thick to understand

motherfunker

What is the SEI course, never heard of that, sounds interesting though.

RKQ

I've had afew enquiries from people wanting a BER Assessor. I've no problem passing on names and numbers without a fee.

I like to be able to give an unbiased independent referral - as I hope to give all my Clients a list of three or four Assessors that I've worked well with. That way my Client retains the Assessor & I've no PI implications.

Auctioneers may be looking for referral fees to beef up there falling sales commissions but its not good business.

Any house seller will simply DIY it - look on SEI site and approach Assessors for a quote - best quote wins!

People won't stomach a referral fee - smacks of brown envelopes = dodgy deeds. If I was an Assessor I'd be very careful not be get tarnished by it. (Then again certain people might seek out the "Dodgy" Assessor, in the hope of a "good" rating.)

Prompt professional service from an individual with a good reputation will win out in the end, don't get involved in referral fees!:)

No6

RKQ wrote: »

I've had afew enquiries from people wanting a BER Assessor. I've no problem passing on names and numbers without a fee.

I like to be able to give an unbiased independent referral - as I hope to give all my Clients a list of three or four Assessors that I've worked well with. That way my Client retains the Assessor & I've no PI implications.

Auctioneers may be looking for referral fees to beef up there falling sales commissions but its not good business.

Any house seller will simply DIY it - look on SEI site and approach Assessors for a quote - best quote wins!

People won't stomach a referral fee - smacks of brown envelopes = dodgy deeds. If I was an Assessor I'd be very careful not be get tarnished by it. (Then again certain people might seek out the "Dodgy" Assessor, in the hope of a "good" rating.)

Prompt professional service from an individual with a good reputation will win out in the end, don't get involved in referral fees!:)

Ray while I'm a bit far way to do existing buildings down your way feel free to send my any new builds that need them!!:D But you're right most people selling will not stomach a referal fee to auctioneers on top of the BER fee, although I must say the impression I got off one Auctioneer was to break out the brown evelope's!! The dodgy assessor to my mind will not last to long (hopefully) if the assesment is out side of the normal parameters for a similar building it will most likely be audited by SEI. You should also point out to your clients that while normally the best quote wins consider who is giving the quote, if the lowest quote is from a BER assessor with a background in hairdressing you may not get the best service but perhaps a good blow dry!!!:D

RKQ

No. 6 my name is Mond, Ray..Mond!:D
Spectra fed No. 2 to the Sharks, No. 1 is petting the white pussy and I will look for a female hairdresser, with lots of Experience and gives a good blow dry!:D Where did I leave my Tux?

IMO Technicians will make the best Assessors as they are experienced in construction techniques, can survey on site quickly and are used to complex maths on spreadsheets. (Its one thing entering data it s another understanding what you are entering.)

Its very early days yet but I wish ye well. The public will get a perception, and this perception will be hard to change... so I hope ye can give a good, fair, professional perception and give the public confidence. Good luck

No6

Ahh Mr Mond, it will be a long painful death by blowdrying!!!:D:D yes some of use are fighting to have a good perception of and instill confidence in the system and of its benifits but at times I do fear the worst!!! Most people simply havn't got a clue about it, there's a huge ammount of misinformation out there (even the SEI's adds are a bit weak) and a lot of people see it as another tax on property transactions!! Now wheres my solar death ray (mond) hair dryer!!!:D:D

RKQ

No6 wrote: »

Most people simply havn't got a clue about it, there's a huge ammount of misinformation out there (even the SEI's adds are a bit weak) and a lot of people see it as another tax on property transactions!!

I agree but I do hope it all works out. Pity there is so little info for the general public.

The Government are good at making new rules, regulations and laws but IMO they aren't good at following it up with good info, help and inspection / enforcement. As January 1st fast approaches, I've heard nothing in the media about BER!

Professionism will win out in the end (I hope!)
Best of luck

Number one

No6 wrote: »

Ray while I'm a bit far way to do existing buildings down your way feel free to send my any new builds that need them!!:D But you're right most people selling will not stomach a referal fee to auctioneers on top of the BER fee, although I must say the impression I got off one Auctioneer was to break out the brown evelope's!! The dodgy assessor to my mind will not last to long (hopefully) if the assesment is out side of the normal parameters for a similar building it will most likely be audited by SEI. You should also point out to your clients that while normally the best quote wins consider who is giving the quote, if the lowest quote is from a BER assessor with a background in hairdressing you may not get the best service but perhaps a good blow dry!!!:D

According to the SEI there'll be no hairdressers registering

''In order to become a BER Assessor for Dwellings you must meet the following:
Pre-qualifications
Have a National Certificate Level 6 Advanced Certificate/Higher Certificate in construction studies or other cognate discipline or equivalent. Equivalence may be determined as a combination of an appropriate construction-related qualification and significant relevant experience. SEI will recognise the UK Domestic Energy Assessor (DEA) course and the UK Home Inspectors Course as prequalification requirements.''


I doubt too many hairdressers have Level 6 Advanced certs

No6

Number one wrote: »

According to the SEI there'll be no hairdressers registering

''In order to become a BER Assessor for Dwellings you must meet the following:
Pre-qualifications
Have a National Certificate Level 6 Advanced Certificate/Higher Certificate in construction studies or other cognate discipline or equivalent. Equivalence may be determined as a combination of an appropriate construction-related qualification and significant relevant experience. SEI will recognise the UK Domestic Energy Assessor (DEA) course and the UK Home Inspectors Course as prequalification requirements.''


I doubt too many hairdressers have Level 6 Advanced certs

Level 6 certs in blow drying!! perhaps seriously though if you ask SEI they will tell you that it is up to the educator to check your qualifications and for the most part they don't in fact if I felt like paying for it I could send my dog and some of them would try to train him :eek: I do personally know one registered assessor who has a level 8 qualification in buisness or something like that but nothing in the construction side of things. SEI also do not ask for copies of your certificates / diplomas or degrees when registering.

topcatcbr

I know of a Florist and a hairdresser who have done the course.

RKQ

Surely the market will dictate....

I do understand the problem of less experienced people becoming BER Assessors. But these people may find it tough going and may opt not to continue in business.

If the Course is good, then those that pass will be able to function correctly. Surly thats the point of the course.

Am I sensing genuine concerns or snobbery and a "jobs for the boys" attitude?

While I doubt many hairdressers are becoming Assessors, many Carpenters, Builders and Foremen have become Assessors. These site experienced people may not have Diplomas or Degrees but they understand construction, they can read, they can operate a computer and they can meassure on site or off drawings - so what am I missing?

I don't understand the fear Assessors seem to have with competition?

No6

RKQ wrote: »

Surely the market will dictate....

I do understand the problem of less experienced people becoming BER Assessors. But these people may find it tough going and may opt not to continue in business.

If the Course is good, then those that pass will be able to function correctly. Surly thats the point of the course.

Am I sensing genuine concerns or snobbery and a "jobs for the boys" attitude?

While I doubt many hairdressers are becoming Assessors, many Carpenters, Builders and Foremen have become Assessors. These site experienced people may not have Diplomas or Degrees but they understand construction, they can read, they can operate a computer and they can meassure on site or off drawings - so what am I missing?

I don't understand the fear Assessors seem to have with competition?

RKQ my fear is not with competition, but with standards, I have no difficulty with experienced tradesmen being assessors but there are people who have no experience with the construction industry at all becoming assessors. Some training providers were training virtually anyone who turned up at their many courses and you are making a huge assumption that they are all good!!! Some are and some are perhaps not so good!!!

My biggest fear is with the system being discredited before it really gets going and what you are missing is the feeling from nearly all the assessors I know that so far they have been shafted at all turns by SEI, Training providers etc etc.... I dont know any assesor that has even broken even on their initial inversment yet there may be one or two of them but not many.

The market will probably dictate the lowest cost possible but that my not result in the most accurate assessment and inaccurate assesments will effect the value of property in the next few years.

topcatcbr

RKQ wrote: »

Surely the market will dictate....

I do understand the problem of less experienced people becoming BER Assessors. But these people may find it tough going and may opt not to continue in business.

If the Course is good, then those that pass will be able to function correctly. Surly thats the point of the course.

Am I sensing genuine concerns or snobbery and a "jobs for the boys" attitude?

While I doubt many hairdressers are becoming Assessors, many Carpenters, Builders and Foremen have become Assessors. These site experienced people may not have Diplomas or Degrees but they understand construction, they can read, they can operate a computer and they can meassure on site or off drawings - so what am I missing?

I don't understand the fear Assessors seem to have with competition?

We are not talking about people from a construction backround. We are talking about people doing a job they have not been properly trained for.

A week on a BER course does not teach you about construction. so a backround in hairdressing for example does not prepare adequatly for the job of BER assessor and it does nothing for either the hairdresser or the public to have under qualified people trying to perform tasks which are beyond their training.

One thing which stood out on my course was the difference between these two groups especially when trying to identify method of construction. eg timber frame, cavity block drylined, block on flat or cavity wall. and also trying to determine age and period of construction. People who are not working in construction cant be expected to know these differences from a visual inspection.

The problem was with the course providers and SEI for not policing this properly. not the people who took the courses. I have only sympathy for these. They had their money taken and all they will get from this is grief.

As for the public. How is it going to look when an assessor gets struck off and all thier work is to be redone at the expense of the struck off assessor.

It will be interesting to hear Joe D on this

RKQ

Topcatcbr and No.6 we share the same sentiments. I agree with the points both of you make. It would be very difficult IMO for a hairdresser, florist or even an Estate Agent to make aiving from BER's.

I feel the course may have been "over" sold, as a business oppertunity to ordinary people. I also share your concerne about how the public view BER Assessors. This is critical at the moment, as the process begins.

If the BER is in anyway seen as a con or a Tax then the public will reject it. Another thread today discussed Kilkenny County Council bringing in a Statement of Intention, a sort of BER report for new applications. Such a move should not be welcomed as extra work for BER Asssessors but should be seen as a meassure that could have negative public reaction, a planning tax not required in other Counties!

IMO All new homes already require the input of a BER Assessor at design stage. No need for any other organisation to jump on the band wagon and "muddy" the issue. Mixing planning permission with BER could be a disaster!
(Certification of Compliance etc)

Got luck to the Hairdresser and Florist as they are on a very steep learning curve! Their changes of full time employed may be very difficult.

I do hope all the experienced BER Assessors will strive to be professional, competitive and open and push SEI to meet their needs and resolve their concerns. (Already people have asked me why the Irish system is so much more expensive that the UK system - not an easy one to answer)

Good luck to you all. It may be difficult but the BER is a possitive way forward that must be welcomed and complied with.

topcatcbr

RKQ I tried to explain the price difference a few posts back

Getting back to referal fees I was out talking to local auctioneers receintly and all of them have been approached by ber assessors offering referral (Bribe) Fees. I think we have talked ourselves into this one. I think it is a slippery slope. I would have done the BER course anyway as i see it as an extension of Arch Tech function but if i was getting into this thinking it would be gainfull employment on its own i would be rethinking my options right now.

Many of the auctioneers i have spoken to are confident that they will be allowed to survey their own properties and are holding out for a decision by the EU on this. I fear it will turn out to be extra work for no extra pay by the relevent professional and this would suit the gov fine. But we can only wait and see.

RKQ

topcatcbr wrote: »

RKQ I tried to explain the price difference a few posts back

I know but not everybody reads these posts. Good answer by the way.

Unfortunate if Auctioneers muddy the water. Having a vested interest in the sale and giving a BER rating smells of corruption. It could destroy the publics faith in the system.

Referral fees smacks of corruption! So sad in this day and age when internation confidence in our Housing market is so low.

No6

RKQ wrote: »

I know but not everybody reads these posts. Good answer by the way.

Unfortunate if Auctioneers muddy the water. Having a vested interest in the sale and giving a BER rating smells of corruption. It could destroy the publics faith in the system.

Referral fees smacks of corruption! So sad in this day and age when internation confidence in our Housing market is so low.

My sentiments exactly but unfortunately SEI do not agree and have declared that it is an accecptable practice. I'd nearly ring JD on it myself, he would have a fit!!!

MEONLY

My stratagy: Do not approach auctioneer verbally. This puts you in a weak negotiating position. Write to his/her office selling your wares and offer discount for "bulk business", this puts the onus on the auctioneer to deliver to you "bulk business" if he/she wants discount. Remember auctioneers have friends (not auctioneers) who they WILL tell sooner or later about your lower price and so your price will spiral downwards gradually. Discount on the basis of "bulk business" and your OK. I have a scale of 10% for the first 10 assessments,(the 10th one is free) 15% thereafter to a max discount of €50 @ assessment. The principle of discount for bulk business is well established in our capitalist society. If the auctioneers friend tells me of my lower price I agree, inform him/her of my bulk business system and invite them to join in it too if they want the lower price. I believe this way ones integrity stays intact and assessors can hold the line on price. This comes from 20 years self employed, all above board, dealing with similar situations and the holder of a tax compliant cert, the type some politicians find hard to get.
What do you think of this approach

No6

Who are you passing the discount on to?, A lot of us are passing on discounts for multiple units already, but directly to the clients.

MEONLY

No6 wrote: »

Who are you passing the discount on to?, A lot of us are passing on discounts for multiple units already, but directly to the clients.

Hi no 6. My client is the auctioneer. He only gets the discount. Remember that some houses/apartments are vacant and never had an owner(as such). The auctioneer is now showing the cert to the would be buyer/renter. I might never know who the new tenant/buyer is unless they want it otherwise. The auctioneer includes his costs (inc BER) into his invoice to his/her client. I invoice the auctioneer only. If the new owner/renter asks me how much my BER charge was then I invoke confidentiality between the auctioneer (my client) & myself, unless the auctioneer is willing to inform the new owner. I would have no problem with the new owner knowing my charge and would hope that they too might join in my discount system. Everything is always above board.This is not a pyramid system :pac: its business. If a client contacts me directly then I have a one off (full)charge as normal. If a client contacts me through their auctioneer then its a genuine auctioneers discount. I might never have got the job but for the auctioneer.:cool: PS I'm not an auctioneer but they are in business much longer than BER assessors and have aquired skills.

No6

Meonly, I'd worry about the confidentialiality between yourself and the Auctoneer, that sounds like you now have a buisness arrangement with him and could be construed as being in breach of the code of conduct, and as the building owner is still paying for the service I think they are the client and have a right to know what you are charging them. however I do think passing on a bulk discount to an auctoneer for a number of BER certs is fine, (we all do it for developers) and I have no problem with an auctoneer charging his clients for facilitating you to carry out the BER on their behalf as long as it is clear and transparent and the client is aware they could possibly get it done cheaper by going directly to you (or me!!)

My problem with the referal fees as originally posted and perhaps I havn't made it clear is if the I get a BER cert to do through an Auctoneer they then want a % of my fee in cash under the table!!! Thats what I think is wrong.

If an auctoneer facliates their clients by organising an assessor to do a BER for them, Invoices the client and then pays the assessors I have no problem with them charging their clients directly for that service. All legal and above board. If they get a number of quotes for packages of properties and pick the best value and charge a fee for that fantastic, perhaps thats what they all should do.

muffler

In days of old "referral fees" were simply known as backhanders.

Another victim of the PC brigade.

MEONLY

My problem with the referal fees as originally posted and perhaps I havn't made it clear is if the I get a BER cert to do through an Auctoneer they then want a % of my fee in cash under the table!!! Thats what I think is wrong.


If an auctioneer asks for under the table fee I would simply make it clear that I dont do it and all transactions must be legit. Those types of transactions could rebound badly---Remember off shore accounts etc your family home could be at stake and more, maybe in a few years down the road when you least expect it. The entire SEI system is very transparent. All registered assessors are public knowledge. Easy to check income, VAT, the number of assessments done etc. Revenue people have huge powers & I forecast that they will swoop in a couple of years time when the system settles down. Assessors operating as nixers could loose their jobs as well, if they are lucky enough to have one. Rule of thumb with off-shore accounts was- initial amount owed X 5/6 when all penalties were included. I know some friends of mine who got caught. We are living in a new Ireland to-day. The day of the backhander is long gone.

MEONLY

No6 wrote: »

Meonly, I'd worry about the confidentialiality between yourself and the Auctoneer, that sounds like you now have a buisness arrangement with him and could be construed as being in breach of the code of conduct, and as the building owner is still paying for the service I think they are the client and have a right to know what you are charging them.


NO 6: You raise an interesting question. Who is the client?

Senario: Owner selling house = A. Auctioneer = B New buyer/owner = C BER Assesor = D
A instructs B to sell house
B instructs D to do asessment.
D sees B as his client. ( as A has given this authority to B & BER Cert is legal requirement for sale)
If A instructs B that he is denying the authority with regard to the assessment, then thats a different matter, then A is effectively organising BER himself & would be the direct client. (D then invoices A directly. No discount for "bulk/multi-build) My prefered option.
D does'nt really give two monkeys who pays. A, B or C but yes there is a legitimate above board arrangement with the auctioneer re "bulk business".
I dont see any breach of any code.
Maybe I have this all ar$e ways and will stand corrected.
Who is the client etc?
Would like to hear more views.

MEONLY

No6 wrote: »

Who are you passing the discount on to?, A lot of us are passing on discounts for multiple units already, but directly to the clients.

I have revisited this whole issue in an attempt to get my terms etc for auctioneers transparent, with no question of code problems. This is what I came up with at this point.

*Normal price for first 9 houses. 10th assessment free, within reason, up to average price of 1st 9 assessments. 10% discount approx.
*11th house onwarsds up to €50 max discount per house.
*Assessor invoices the auctioneer. Whether auctioneer passes on discount or not is not assessors concern.
*Auctioneer pays for assessment within 1 month maximum of date of assessment. Payment or the amount of payment is not related to the price or the sale/rent of the property.

*Different rules apply for estates where houses are all the same type etc.ie not every house is assessed but every buyer is entitled to a Cert.
This opens the door for the auctioneer or auctioneers to make an absolute killing and closes the door to different assessors operating in the same estate. Hav'nt figured this one out yet.