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Are Athiests evil?
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09-11-2008 12:09pm#1
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It's atheists, not athiests...
Why don't you take your little discussion over to the atheism forum and leave us Christian folk alone?
I believe atheism and secularism is rooted in evil. Not that the subscribers themselves are inherently evil, just that they're under the influence of sinister forces.
My typing is woeful - there are several spelling mistakes in the post to correct
And there is no point in going to A&A with it as it's the opinion of christians I am interested in - and as always mods have teh power to lock, move or delete this thread if they feel it is out place.
So you think that those who don't believe in god are pawns in the power struggle between god and satan?0 -
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--amadeus-- said:
That often is a major factor in unbelief. The unwillingness to consider oneself the creature in a Creator/creature relationship.So here we have a little cabal of athiests and I suppose I am curious as to what the devout think of our position? Since The Truth is so overwhelming and God is so Magnificent why do we not believe? Is it pride?
Most unlikely. The very intelligent are relatively few in the people of God:Is it stupidity?
1 Corinthians 1:26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
Yes, you are servants of a false king - but there is hope for you:Or are we tools of some evil force?
Acts 26:17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
We are all part of God's plan. Like Paul before his conversion, you at present are sent to try and test us - but like him you may come to worship Him whom you once persecuted.Or are we part of gods plan, sent to try and test you?
Let me directly address your thread header, Are Atheists evil?
Yes. Anyone who does not worship God is evil, no matter how moral they may be in other matters.
In fact, without faith in God, all the best things one does are sinful:
Isaiah 64:6b But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;0 -
Fanny Cradock wrote: »Oh, and you can prove that, can you? Because if you cant, then I'm afraid that it's just you, based on your intolerances, presupposing that religious people are a silly bunch.
You may have guessed your contention (and let's not pussy foot around with words like 'imply') that religious people are not 'thinkers' (you didn't even bother to insert the word 'critical' before hand) is an opinion that causes me to get a little (but not overly) peeved. The arrogance of your post is circular in it's reasoning: 'anybody who doesn't think like me isn't a 'thinker'.
There are countless numbers of highly intelligent theists who have put a great deal more thought and consideration into their beliefs than you dare give them credit for, CerebralCortex. Then again, I guess you can't give them any credit because anybody who doesn't think like you isn't a thinker. And by way of counter argument, I could state that there are a high number of atheists who have not seriously considered the alternatives to their belief.
I obviously really struck a cord with you there Fanny and tbh completely unintentionally, and in my defense you've put a lot of words in your mouth. I really don't understand why you would be upset by anything I would say your reaction says a lot more than what you written to me at least. 0 -
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CerebralCortex wrote: » I obviously really struck a cord with you there Fanny and tbh completely unintentionally, and in my defense you've put a lot of words in your mouth. I really don't understand why you would be upset by anything I would say your reaction says a lot more than what you written to me at least.
I don't believe that I have read into anything. You stated that a lot of religious people are guilty of not thinking (and by extension, one can only assume that you believe a lot of non-religious are thinkers - insert' critical' or 'free' as you wish). As I have not encountered any basis to back up this belief, I can only assume it stems from a somewhat low opinion of those who choose to believe in a metaphysical being(s).0 -
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Join Date:Posts: 29920
As an agnostic I'd like to point out that there are several types of agnosticism.
One type believes that it is not possible for man to understand the nature of God, ever.
Another believes we dont know now but we might know in the future.
Another type of agnosticism is of the kind that says "we dont seem to have any contact with God, nor does he seen to play any persceptible role in our lives, so.... meh *shrug*".
There are plenty of other shades of gray too (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic).
Personally, I would be somewhere between the first type I mentioned and the last. I'm also particularly proud to be an agnostic because I believe we are the only group in the whole religious debate who arent black and white about it. We are the only group not professing to actually KNOW and that you should follow us.
Sorry, but it twists my kacks when people lump agnostics in with atheists or mis-represent the position held by agnostics.
We dont know and we think you don't either.
DeV.0 -
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Thats caused by relativistic points of view Fanny. To explain, if someone came up to you and said they believed in little green fairies at the bottom of the garden, you might re-evaluate your opinion of their intelligence... no?
I don't think this is necessarily about intelligence. For example, we wouldn't argue over Newton's intelligence, yet he was a Christian as well as an alchemist. The former I would subscribe to, the latter I would dismiss (though who is to say that he may not yet be proved correct in that matter).
As for not believing in fairies at the bottom of the Garden (an echo of Dawkins/ Adams), I don't believe that proposing false alternatives (I assume we can agree that the notion of fairies is untrue) is of huge significance. Most Christians understand the atheist position i.e. that ultimately all religions are as preposterous as the next. However, our position would be that if one belief is wrong it doesn't automatically follow that all beliefs are wrong.Speaking as an observer outside of either of your frames of reference, CC is making the same mistake by making belief in God to be proof enough of inexact thinking. In that way it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy.
Outside opinions are always welcome, especially if they happen to come from the big cheese himselfI would have to say that there are a lot of lazy catholics around in terms of critical thought and its why the evils perpetrated by some priests was allowed to proceed for so long but it would have to be said there are a lot of "sheep" atheists too.
Couldn't agree more.All that can be said is that the more educated the person the less likely they are to be deeply religious in my experience. That can be for other reasons such as greed though...
I glad you put that end sentence in there. It's always been the Christian contention that those with less will seek God more readily. (From the Christian perspective, that it may happen to be the wrong God is not significant). It's arguable that neither intelligence nor education are the significant factors on belief, rather a decrease in belief is down to the improved social standing (increased wealth, quality of life security to mention a few) that normally go hand in hand with education and intelligence.0 -
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CerebralCortex wrote: »Well all I can say is I apologise for expressing my views. The only I thing I can do to dig myself out of this hole though is by saying something I don't agree with, I'd say havign crossed swords with your good self before. Fundamental to this is that I don't make claims to know the truth about the universe whereas I've experienced the religious to have done that very thing, I could simillarily make claims but I have no evidence but it seems like its alright for the religious to know almost to the detail the truth without any evidence and it closes them of to possibilities. Incidentily I've met very intelligent people too who are theists through my line of work but I don't think they focus their attention on what they believe thats already sowed up for them why worry about it no need to question of course that enters the realm of my opinion on them.
I think we all make certain claims about the truth of the universe. Yours is that there is no God. Similarly, I would assume you believe that your mother loves you and subscribe to the theory of gravity, evolution and the Big Bang etc. This debate isn't necessarily about universal truths, though. It is about your and my perception an the ability to think clearly depending on your religious persuasion.
We are not going to agree here, CC. I apologise if I was forceful enough for you feel that you can't express your views. It was never my intent for you to feel this way. However, this is the internet, and it is quite natural to find people who disagree with views you hold dearly. Furthermore, it quite likely that this person will argue endlessly with you in futile attempts to change your mind. 0 -
Personally, I would be somewhere between the first type I mentioned and the last. I'm also particularly proud to be an agnostic because I believe we are the only group in the whole religious debate who arent black and white about it. We are the only group not professing to actually KNOW and that you should follow us.
You're quite wrong. I don't know a single atheist who professes to 'know' that god doesn't exist. (I'm sure somebody will pop up at this point to contradict me.)
All atheists that I know choose not to believe without evidence, but are open to modifying that position on the basis of evidence that might yet be forthcoming. The only agnostic who I would consider to differ to any great extent from an atheist is your first type - the one who says we can never know. That, in short, god is unknowable. Which is a ridiculously premature stand to take given how much has been learned about our universe in even the last five years, let alone a hundred. Who could say for certain the truth can and will never be revealed? Or can you be agnostic about your agnosticism, in an infinite regression of unwillingness to have the courage of your convictions?0 -
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Fanny, why are you quite happy to agree "that the notion of fairies in untrue" but not "that the notion of god is untrue" when there is a precisely equal amount of evidence for the existence of each?
Fair question, but I'm not interested in getting into the evidence debate again. We have had that chat all too often on this forum before.
I'm unsure where you get the notion that there is 'precisely the same amounts of evidence for the existence of each'. Maybe to you there is (and I'm assuming you feel that it is all of the same quality), but if this is your opinion then I would suggest that you haven't explored the matter sufficiently.
Whether you believe in Jesus' claims or not there is compelling for his existence. I've not seen similar evidence for fairies, nor am I aware of many (any?) intellectual luminaries (secular or otherwise) willing to devote their academic career to the study of fairies on the basis that they are real. Then there is the matter of my personal experiences and those of others. But let's not go there againYou're quite wrong. I don't know a single atheist who professes to 'know' that god doesn't exist. (I'm sure somebody will pop up at this point to contradict me.)
Here you go:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081023155501AAPfL3k
As an aside, I believe that most religious followers would say that they believe there is probably a God. So, in time honoured internet phraseology: 'the point is mute'.0 -
We dont know and we think you don't either.
that basically describes atheism.
if you reject their religion as saying that they can't possible know if what they claim is actually real then you are basically saying their beliefs are false. That the concepts contained in the beliefs (a god, a creator etc), but the actual beliefs.
the example often given is 3 men standing outside a room with a closed door. The men have never been inside and don't know what is in there.
the first man says "I believe there is a pot of gold in that room." This is the believer. He has his reasons for thinking that, and they are perfectly reasonable to him. And no one can "prove" there isn't a pot of gold in there.
the second man says "Don't be ridiculous, you can't possible know what it in the room. I totally reject that belief." This is the atheist. He strongly believes that the believer has no real clue what is in the room. To the atheist the pot of gold the believer thinks is in the room comes from the believers emotions, his desires and wishes, not from actual assessment that there is gold in the room. The atheist rejects the believer's idea, his faith, as simply wishful nonsense. Notice he isn't saying there isn't something in the room, heck he isn't saying there isn't gold in the room. What he is saying is that the believer has no clue, so he totally rejects the believer's assertions and beliefs.
The agnostic looks at the believer and the atheist and thinks "I'm not so sure". The atheist has a point when he asks how does the believer know it is a pot of gold in the room. But equally, he is not so ready to reject out of hand the believers statements about the gold. The agnostic thinks to himself that perhaps the believer does actually know what is in the room, some how, some way. After all none of them can see into the room, so none of them can actually demonstrate to the others that there isn't a pot of gold in the room. Perhaps the atheist is right to reject the beliefs of the believer, but then again perhaps the believer knows something that the rest don't.The agnostic is not ready to fully embrace the believers faith, but he is not ready to agree with the atheist that the believer doesn't have a clue what he is talking about.
That is how I see it at least. It is not a question of knowing, it is a question of what you believe. For an atheist it is not necessarily a question of believing God doesn't exist, more that the believers don't have a clue and have simply imagined these concepts up.0 -
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