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Is Atheism a belief system in itself?

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  • 19-05-2008 6:16pm
    #1
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭


    I came across this article and while I disagree with a lot of what is said in it the one thing that I was interested in was the idea that atheism was a belief system akin to any other religion. I don't believe it is, the way I see it is that it is just being human minus a belief in deities/fairies/a deity or the supernatural. Whatever the person believes after that is not part of his atheism although he may be freed up to believe certain things as an atheist. What do you folks think?


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    #2
    Sir Digby Chicken Caesar
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,556 ✭✭✭✭Sir Digby Chicken Caesar


    i think if youn just put the link in as the actual url below your post it would be a hell of a lot easier on those of us using the minamilist skin.


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    #3
    stereoroid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 418 ✭✭stereoroid


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    I came across this article and while I disagree with a lot of what is said in it the one thing that I was interested in was the idea that atheism was a belief system akin to any other religion.
    I think there's two parts to this:
    - an assumption that everyone has to have a belief system, with ordained morals and codes of conduct - and if you don't, you're somehow "outside" society, akin to a criminal. It's a failure of imagination on their part. This is why there's so much discussion of secular ethics & morals, and their prehistoric (i.e. pre-religion) origins, as opposed to "religion as the source of morality".
    - "framing" atheism as a belief allows theists to say things like "why is your belief system more rational than ours?" - that is, it lets them accuse atheists of being just as irrational as they are. Totally unsubstantiated, not that it matters to someone bent on painting atheists as the enemy. :rolleyes:


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    #4
    eoin5
    Registered Users Posts: 2,141 ✭✭✭eoin5


    At the second sentence this article failed my crap-o-metre.

    Anyways yes atheism is a belief, its true. The reason being you cant prove that god is not real despite all the probabilities you care to mention.

    Is it like a religion? heck no!

    A commonly used parallel is someone who believes astrology isnt real, thats also a belief. I think to call either atheism or non-astrologism a belief system is a very big stretch.


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    #5
    Fremen
    Registered Users Posts: 2,481 ✭✭✭Fremen


    Athiesm is a belief system in the same way that NOT playing tennis is a sport.


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    #6
    eoin5
    Registered Users Posts: 2,141 ✭✭✭eoin5


    Is theism even a belief system in itself? You could describe a belief system as theistic or atheistic but wouldnt the religion itself be the belief system?


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    #7
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    Yes, I do remember suggesting this here before and getting slated.


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    #8
    eoin5
    Registered Users Posts: 2,141 ✭✭✭eoin5


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Yes, I do remember suggesting this here before and getting slated.

    Not by me I hope :D


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    #9
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,288 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    eoin5 wrote: »
    Is theism even a belief system in itself? You could describe a belief system as theistic or atheistic but wouldnt the religion itself be the belief system?

    we're getting into crazy levels of reductionism here. If we want to take that to it's ultimate conclusion, its impossible to label anything as 'a belief system' because every single individual that ever walked the earth had their own unique system of beliefs (if every snowflake can be unique, then there are enough unique variations on belief to cover every human individual)


    I would go with sam harris on this one and suggest that the majority of 'believers' don't actually believe in God, rather, they believe in the belief in god. They think that believing is a virtue, and therefore they ought to believe in a god, but they can't actually define any specific characteristics of the god they claim to believe in. (aside from their own opinion of what they think a god might be like, but based on nothing really)

    fundamentalists don't fit into this characteristics because they at least have a frame of reference, the bible. Most christians don't know scripture well enough to form an 'evidence based' opinion, and instead just go with wishy washy versions of belief in 'something' because they think that belief itself is a virtue, even if you don't know what you believe in.


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    #10
    eoin5
    Registered Users Posts: 2,141 ✭✭✭eoin5


    Akrasia wrote: »
    we're getting into crazy levels of reductionism here. If we want to take that to it's ultimate conclusion, its impossible to label anything as 'a belief system' because every single individual that ever walked the earth had their own unique system of beliefs (if every snowflake can be unique, then there are enough unique variations on belief to cover every human individual)

    If the term "belief system" doesnt come with an explicit quantization I'd accept that as a conclusion, everyone has their own take on things.

    edit:

    Here we go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief_system

    from there I'd go for: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_stance

    ...and:
    wikipedia wrote:
    Life stance or lifestance refers to a person's relation with what he or she accepts as of ultimate importance, the presuppositions and theory of this, and the commitments and practice of working it out in living.


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    #11
    iUseVi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭iUseVi


    OP: No, it is not a belief system. This thread amuses me. That is all. :rolleyes::D


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    #12
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Concious non-belief is belief IMO. if one defines themselves as atheist, then they have gone through a thought process and come out the other side with a conclusion. One could just as easily say, 'you believe there is no god'. As for there being a system, well i think it depends on the atheist really. There doesn't seem to be a common consensus on what an atheist is, so I'm not aware of a 'system' other than the basic tenet of 'i believe there is no god'. thats my two cent anyhoo.


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    #13
    iUseVi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭iUseVi


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Concious non-belief is belief IMO. if one defines themselves as atheist, then they have gone through a thought process and come out the other side with a conclusion. One could just as easily say, 'you believe there is no god'. As for there being a system, well i think it depends on the atheist really. There doesn't seem to be a common consensus on what an atheist is, so I'm not aware of a 'system' other than the basic tenet of 'i believe there is no god'. thats my two cent anyhoo.

    Indeed, but a "system" that only consisted of that single tenet is ludicrously simple. I'm not sure a system can be made out of a single thing.


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    #14
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    iUseVi wrote: »
    Indeed, but a "system" that only consisted of that single tenet is ludicrously simple. I'm not sure a system can be made out of a single thing.

    I agree. atheism is a belief, but not a belief system. however, an individual atheist may have a system that comes from atheisms basic tenet. Such as anti-theism etc.


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    #15
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    JimiTime wrote: »
    There doesn't seem to be a common consensus on what an atheist is, so I'm not aware of a 'system' other than the basic tenet of 'i believe there is no god'. thats my two cent anyhoo.
    Oh, I think there is a common consensus as to what an atheist is - the confusion simply arises when people (usually not atheists) try to add features to it. Like suggesting it's a 'faith', for instance. :D


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    #16
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Yes, I do remember suggesting this here before and getting slated.

    And rightly so :pac:

    Atheism is not a belief system

    A belief system being a common set of beliefs that build off each other (ie God exists, God loves everyone, I should be nice to everyone because God is nice to me - or - All humans are created equally, I wish to have rights, I should grant those rights to others)

    Knowing someone is an atheist tells me nothing about their belief system.

    Stalin was an atheist, so was Einstein. They did not share the same belief system as far as I can tell, and I doubt I share the same belief system with either of them.

    People tend to assume that atheism is the same as actual belief systems like humanism or secularism. It isn't. A person can be an atheist and not be a secularist or a humanist.


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    #17
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    JimiTime wrote: »
    I agree. atheism is a belief, but not a belief system. however, an individual atheist may have a system that comes from atheisms basic tenet. Such as anti-theism etc.
    Except you don't have to be an atheist to be an anti-theist. You could be agnostic, deist or fit in any number of pigeon holes.


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    #18
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Dades wrote: »
    Oh, I think there is a common consensus as to what an atheist is - the confusion simply arises when people (usually not atheists) try to add features to it. Like suggesting it's a 'faith', for instance. :D

    Cheeky:) Well if its not based on scientific eveidence, or of knowledge, what would you call it?


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    #19
    iUseVi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭iUseVi


    JimiTime wrote: »
    I agree. atheism is a belief, but not a belief system. however, an individual atheist may have a system that comes from atheisms basic tenet. Such as anti-theism etc.

    Atheism is only possible because of the lack of evidence for theism, or any -ism. I think most atheists would "believe" if given suitably convincing evidence. Of course then it wouldn't be blind faith any more...

    Theists and proponents of other religions, jump, from the position of no-evidence, and take up their various insupportable positions.

    Anti-theism stems from theism, not atheism.


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    #20
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Dades wrote: »
    Except you don't have to be an atheist to be an anti-theist. You could be agnostic, deist or fit in any number of pigeon holes.


    I agree, i just said this is something that can stem, individually, from an atheist. It was an example of a belief system that 'can' stem from the basic atheist tenet. I'm not saying that this makes atheism a system, but rather that a system can come from its basic tenet.


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    #21
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Cheeky:) Well if its not based on scientific eveidence, or of knowledge, what would you call it?

    Who said it isn't based on evidence or knowledge?


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    #22
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    JimiTime wrote: »
    I agree, i just said this is something that can stem, individually, from an atheist. It was an example of a belief system that 'can' stem from the basic atheist tenet. I'm not saying that this makes atheism a system, but rather that a system can come from its basic tenet.

    Well as wicknight said someone could be secularist or a humanist for example on top of being an atheist, but I fail to see what that may have do with the fundamental defination of atheism itself.


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    #23
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    FYI all - there is now an atheism=faith thread...

    Different from the current atheism=belief system one!


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    #24
    markyedison
    Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭markyedison


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Concious non-belief is belief IMO. if one defines themselves as atheist, then they have gone through a thought process and come out the other side with a conclusion. .

    This is exactly the same argument I've heard christians give for homosexuality; that Atheism / Queerness is a choice is a bogus postulate. Jimitime , you are being lied to!

    Apologies for the curt reply, but i find this argument offensive on both levels.

    Cheers,
    Marky


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    #25
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    markyedison wrote: »
    This is exactly the same argument I've heard christians give for homosexuality; that Atheism / Queerness is a choice is a bogus postulate. Jimitime , you are being lied to!

    Apologies for the curt reply, but i find this argument offensive on both levels.

    Cheers,
    Marky

    Steady on there tiger. I am completely missing the relevance of Homosexuality here:confused:


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    #26
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    I think markyedison is implying that you were implying that atheism is a 'choice'. Probably prompted by the word "conscious" in your post. The comparison is that certain religious elements believe homosexuality is a (bad) choice that could be avoided.

    Didn't read any of that in your post, myself!


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    #27
    markyedison
    Closed Accounts Posts: 83 ✭✭markyedison


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Steady on there tiger. I am completely missing the relevance of Homosexuality here:confused:

    In a previous post, you referred to atheism as a product of a thought process. The notion of atheism as a personal choice is, IMO, akin to the notion that being gay is a personal choice.

    To me, there is a significant similarlity between gays and atheists both in their demonisation by the church and the fiction that to be gay/ atheist is a lifestyle option upon which individuals embark.

    Again, like being gay, atheism is a black and white issue about which there is no choice. One either is or is not...
    Marky


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    #28
    eoin5
    Registered Users Posts: 2,141 ✭✭✭eoin5


    markyedison wrote: »
    In a previous post, you referred to atheism as a product of a thought process. The notion of atheism as a personal choice is, IMO, akin to the notion that being gay is a personal choice.

    To me, there is a significant similarlity between gays and atheists both in their demonisation by the church and the fiction that to be gay/ atheist is a lifestyle option upon which individuals embark.

    Again, like being gay, atheism is a black and white issue about which there is no choice. One either is or is not...
    Marky

    The default stance on the subject is agnosticism with no belief in the existance of a god. That person is an atheist by default.

    To become an atheist after being a theist though is a different story. I think some thought, even on the subconscious level, is needed to convert oneself. Its not necessarily a personal choice but its certainly not an intrinsic yay or nay for everyone either.

    The same goes for someone with knowledge of religion and continues to be an atheist.


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    #29
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    Wicknight wrote: »
    And rightly so :pac:

    Atheism is not a belief system

    Alas, I'm not convinced


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    #30
    rockbeer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭rockbeer


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Alas, I'm not convinced

    This may be a failure of your imagination. Many adherents to belief systems seem to find it almost impossible to grasp the idea of not having/needing one. Therefore they presume that atheism must be in some way analogous to whatever-it-is they believe in. I've almost fallen out with a good friend over this - he simply refuses to accept the word of an atheist on what an (this) atheist is.

    I don't know why it's so hard for you. Just think of something you don't believe in. Time travel or whatever. That, I'd dare say, is how most atheists feel about god. The fact that you believe in it passionately is irrelevant to us.

    Would you describe not believing in time travel as a belief system?


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    #31
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Alas, I'm not convinced

    Fair enough.

    Perhaps define what you understand a belief system to be and then describe how atheism matches that definition. That would at least get everyone on the same page.


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