Gardai are to be issued with pepper spray.

Dave! · 24-10-2008 02:37AM

brendansmith wrote: »

I always like a bit of pepper on my pork:D:o

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa233/shredtastical/I-see-what-you-did-there.jpg

brendansmith · 24-10-2008 02:59AM

Dave! wrote: »

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa233/shredtastical/I-see-what-you-did-there.jpg

Sharp as a tack me!:pac::mad::cool::eek::o

Fulton Crown · 24-10-2008 09:38AM

Biggins wrote: »

Given that the Gardi now face handguns, semi-automatics, a wide verity of knives, physical assaults from drug filled wackos whom also think nothing about spiting (transfer of AIDS/etc), I think the least we can do is give them something in the form of a pepperspray.

Guess what, if your not attacking a person that is there to normally protect you, you won't get sprayed!

Pepper spray - Cnunts don' even know how to use a salt cellar !:D

Prof.Badass · 24-10-2008 10:02AM

10 years time;

new pepper spray crime crises. Kids carrying pepper spray to school, sprayings up 500%.

where are they getting it from?

special report after the news.

Dinter · 24-10-2008 10:04AM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I disagree the pepper spary was not required!

If that cop couldn't refrain that girl without pepper spray well then he shouldn't be a cop.

You know when you see cop shows and there's like 8 policemen taking down one person that it's not because it needs 8 of them. One could do it by smashing the lads knee with a baton. Or one policeman could lock up his shoulder and pivot him onto the ground full force or really any number of alternatives. Instead numbers are used to make it more clinical and ensure there's less chance of harm coming to the person being detained.

The policeman used his pepper spray as a less violent method of detaining her than using full force and grapples. You mention it was a 15 year old girl. So what? She bit the cop. Hepatitis B isn't like a fine wine that somehow increases potency with age.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Each can must assigned with a serial number and handed out personally to the officer. That number is on record so if the can goes missing, becomes discharged or the seal is broken for any reason it must be reported immediately. This way there is a less chance of cans going "astray" and falling into the wrong hands.

Those carrying it must also receive proper training on its use and also how to treat people who have been sprayed by the stuff and it should only be used in self defense.

See this is what I mean about your posts. You make a hysterical "demand" for perfectly acceptable regulations of the kind that were introduced with the ASP and will of course be introduced with the spray and imply that without them we'll have cops running amok, champing at the bit for an opportunity to spray random passerbys. That whole "astray" business. :rolleyes:

drunkmonkey wrote: »

If you give the Garda pepper spray and tasers the criminals will just use something stronger....like bullets...

Violence breeds Violence....America is testament to that....

more feet on the street or a complete overhaul of our drug policys is the only answer..

If you know a Garda is packing a weapon to take you down your only defence is a bigger weapon...

This is a mistake and a step in the wrong derection, Let the communities responsible for little scumbags deal with little scumbags, pepper spay will not stop the rot....

While I agree there should be more feet on the street this spray is being introduced to ensure that first responders have some way of defending themselves on a normal day to day basis. As it is quickly incapacitating without leaving long term damage it's far safer for a criminal to come up against that rather than an armed Garda.

Pepper spray isn't being introduced as a deterrent against committing crimes, that's what courts / prisons are for. This spray is solely aimed at protecting the people who try to protect others.

Prof.Badass · 24-10-2008 10:15AM

Dinter wrote: »

Pepper spray isn't being introduced as a deterrent against committing crimes, that's what courts / prisons are for. This spray is solely aimed at protecting the people who try to protect others.

Skanger Joe is off his tits on a variety of substances, He decides it would be a good idea to spray some graffitti. Gaurda Paul comes along, but skanger joe refuses to co-operate, and tries to make a break for it. Garda Paul sprays him with pepper spray, he gets taken in. He's ordered to clean up the graffiti and stay out of trouble. However being sprayed in the eyes with pepper spray really, really hurts, and now skanger joe has it out for the police. There is no chance in hell he'll ever co-operate with them. He tells his friends/parents/ granny and now large groups of the community don't trust the police.

Skanger Joe, vows that next time he'll carry a knife.

Dinter · 24-10-2008 10:26AM

vinylmesh wrote: »

There is no chance in hell he'll ever co-operate with them. He tells his friends/parents/ granny and now large groups of the community don't trust the police.

Tbh, Skanger Joe didn't sound like a fine upstanding member of the community beforehand!! Seriously tho do you think this story would have had a happier ending if Skanger Joe was bopped about with a baton?

End of the day though, unless you're actively trying to hurt a Garda there's very little chance of them using unreasonable force on you. Yes I know people are going to point out protesters getting "attacked" or whatever but they are given dozens of chances to get out of the way beforehand. If they want to stay, after being made completely aware of the consequences it's up to them. Getting walloped or dragged out of the way appeals to their desire for "martyrdom" for their cause.

When I watch the "shell to sea" protests I always wonder how many people would turn out if they were in Kenya or 1970's Northern Ireland.

seamus · 24-10-2008 10:39AM

vinylmesh wrote: »

now skanger joe has it out for the police. There is no chance in hell he'll ever co-operate with them. He tells his friends/parents/ granny and now large groups of the community don't trust the police.

Skanger Joe, vows that next time he'll carry a knife.

And how is that different from now, where skanger joe gets pinned to the ground and starts whining like a little bitch that he's being hurt, and then tells all his family that the gardai beat him up?

Prof.Badass · 24-10-2008 10:41AM

Dinter wrote: »

Tbh, Skanger Joe didn't sound like a fine upstanding member of the community beforehand!! Seriously tho do you think this story would have had a happier ending if Skanger Joe was bopped about with a baton?

As far as i was aware, kids didn't get hit with batons for being drunk and disorderly, if they do, they shouldn't.

If there's a culture of police aggression there'll also be a culture of criminal aggression.

You can question/arrest someone without being overly aggressive towards them. In fact you get the impression that in places like the us, police are aggressive even towards innocent people they stop by the road. if you want the general public to be uncooperative with the police, this is the type of stuff you need to be doing.

seamus · 24-10-2008 10:53AM

vinylmesh wrote: »

If there's a culture of police aggression there'll also be a culture of criminal aggression.

But there's not a culture of police aggression. Gardai are not known for being heavy-handed (cue may day riots footage :rolleyes: )
Just because they're carrying another non-lethal weapon, doesn't mean they're suddenly going to become violent bastards overnight.

In fact you get the impression that in places like the us, police are aggressive even towards innocent people they stop by the road.

If youtube videos and cop shows have shown anything, it's that by and large, U.S. cops are very professional and hands off, until you f*ck with them. Once you start acting the prick, they'll let loose. And rightly so.

Prof.Badass · 24-10-2008 11:04AM

seamus wrote: »

But there's not a culture of police aggression. Gardai are not known for being heavy-handed (cue may day riots footage :rolleyes: )
Just because they're carrying another non-lethal weapon, doesn't mean they're suddenly going to become violent bastards overnight.

If youtube videos and cop shows have shown anything, it's that by and large, U.S. cops are very professional and hands off, until you f*ck with them. Once you start acting the prick, they'll let loose. And rightly so.

I'm not talking as much about physical aggression. It's more of a verbal/psychological thing. It's mostly about posture and tone of voice and how you deal with the person. Of course they're not gonna hit people straight away if they're on tv.

I once saw a clip from "night cops" or something (it's based in the uk). Some guy got loads of eggs thrown on him (poor guy). So he goes up to the policeman and he starts telling him the story. The policeman is being a right cun't and not really listening to the story (it's his job).So the guy gets kind of angry (as you would if you had eggs thrown all over your suit) and uses the f-word. Now it wasn't directed towards the policeman, it was just something like; "they threw ****ing eggs on me". With that the policeman really steps up the prickery and starts being more of a prick (imo) than the guys who threw eggs on him, just going on a major power trip and taking it out on this poor victim. He then gets taken down to the staion, for what? reporting a crime?

The whole aggression thing i'm talking about is definately more of a verbal thing.

shelly999 · 24-10-2008 11:12AM

i agree that i prefer gardai to have this spray rather then a gun. im sure some gardai would hate if there were issued with firearms, at least this method of protection is milder and once its usage is warranted i say "spray the hell outta it" :rolleyes:

Dinter · 24-10-2008 11:24AM

vinylmesh wrote: »

As far as i was aware, kids didn't get hit with batons for being drunk and disorderly, if they do, they shouldn't.

That's the whole point though. If it comes to a situation where once the Garda would have had to draw his baton he can now resort to the spray instead. Even the mere act of freeing the spray should give anyone being aggressive pause for thought and it might end there.

vinylmesh wrote: »

If there's a culture of police aggression there'll also be a culture of criminal aggression. You can question/arrest someone without being overly aggressive towards them. If you want the general public to be uncooperative with the police, this is the type of stuff you need to be doing.

It's funny how if a Garda broke some scummers arm in a scuffle it would be front page news however when it happens to a Garda there's not a murmer. There are massive strictures and regulations that the Gardai operate under about reasonable and justified use of force. Adding another non lethal weapon to their armoury won't affect that.

vinylmesh wrote: »

I'm not talking as much about physical aggression. It's more of a verbal/psychological thing. It's mostly about posture and tone of voice and how you deal with the person. Of course they're not gonna hit people straight away if they're on tv.

And yet from my viewing of assorted cop shows it seems the scummers never have any problem assaulting the police whether there's cameras or not.

You should realise that a Garda's posture, tone of voice, et al is deliberately designed to intimidate people that they fear could become aggressive or to make people obey directions through sheer force of will. They're the ones at risk at the scene and by virtue of the statutory obligations we entrust them to make those decisions. When watching tv remember that hindsight is always 20:20. Fair enough, to someone watching after the fact, it may appear to be heavy handed tactics but the only person who knows whether an incident was going to escalate is the man at the scene.

Prof.Badass · 24-10-2008 11:35AM

Dinter wrote: »

You should realise that a Garda's posture, tone of voice, et al is deliberately designed to intimidate people that they fear could become aggressive or to make people obey directions through sheer force of will. They're the ones at risk at the scene and by virtue of the statutory obligations we entrust them to make those decisions. When watching tv remember that hindsight is always 20:20. Fair enough, to someone watching after the fact, it may appear to be heavy handed tactics but the only person who knows whether an incident was going to escalate is the man at the scene.

fair enough if the person is threatening physical violence, most of the time they're not though. e.g someone's caught with drugs, the cop can act professional and emotionless or he can be an aggressive prick.

Dinter · 24-10-2008 11:44AM

vinylmesh wrote: »

fair enough if the person is threatening physical violence, most of the time they're not though. e.g someone's caught with drugs, the cop can act professional and emotionless or he can be an aggressive prick.

Tbh, a Garda can't tell how the lad will behave so to start they always try and keep them off balance. However while it might look like they're being unnecessarily aggressive their behaviour would be moderated by the lads behaviour or his history of how he deals with the Gardai.

For example Skanger Joe in our last scenario might have been perfectly rational that day but during his last dealings with a Garda he spat at one, bit another, claimed his pockets were sharp free resulting in a needle stick for an officer, kicked out a patrol car window, smashed his head off a cell door and claimed assault. I mean the list of what could have happened previously goes on.

It's hard to base an opinion on something you're hearing third hand or watching as an outsider.

Helix · 24-10-2008 11:51AM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

.

this is abuse of pepper spray:mad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10VKwULQbb8&feature=related

fully deserved

as pointed out in the comments he requested she put her hands behind her back about 30 times, she refused, fought him, and bit him

Biggins · 24-10-2008 11:53AM

vinylmesh wrote: »

...the cop can act professional and emotionless or he can be an aggressive prick.

Same can be said for the criminal. He can behave him/herself and comply with the legal authority issuing the requests to comply - or they can react in a manner that is dangerous to themselves and/or for all in the surround area.

Long story short, if you behave like a stupid dope - you will get treated like one.

Fact.
1. The sprays will be numbered and allocated to traceable by name Gardi, all recorded to official file.
2. No Garda is just going to use it at the drop of a hat. The decision to use it will not be taken lightly, if only because of the possible investigations into why it was thought they should be and the amount of paperwork involved too for the Garda having to use it. No person (or Garda) wants to add to their already over burdened paperwork!

Those that say these will end up in the hands of schoolboys are talking a load of tosh - has this happened at all in America where such a device has been around for years?

I will no sympathy for those that will find themselves sprayed by it. The decision to do so will not be taken lightly and if your manhandling a person that is only there to uphold the law and save lives, you deserve what you get for your own (no one forced you to abuse Gardi) actions.
All actions have consequences. You make your own consequences by your actions.

daveharnett · 24-10-2008 12:28PM

Raze_them_all wrote: »

I think the question is how strong a pepper spray?? wasn't there cases where it weren strong enough and only angered the person more and beat the crap outta thecops??

Ever rubbed your eyes after chopping chilli? The police issue is pretty strong stuff - a direct hit to the face means eyes burning (almost to the point of blindness) and laboured breathing for several minutes, and irritation lasting for an hour.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Is it illegal for me to carry pepper spray?

Yes

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Most Garda are good people and they need some kind of defence...but so do women, children and old people, should we not give them some pepper spray as well?

Possibly, except for the children bit. Children and weapons do not mix :rolleyes:

drunkmonkey wrote: »

this is abuse of pepper spray:mad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10VKwULQbb8&feature=related

IMO this is a perfect example of the use of pepper spray. The cop was fully aware that he was on camera, and clearly did not want to hurt/injure the girl. He tried verbal commands, physical force and pain compliance, all with no avail. In the absense of pepper spray, the guy would have had to break bones to get her into cuffs.

As for those who called for a softer approach, she's fifteen ffs. Five year olds should know better than to disobey REPEATED direct instructions from police.

Homer · 24-10-2008 12:49PM

Biggins wrote: »

Those that say these will end up in the hands of schoolboys are talking a load of tosh - has this happened at all in America where such a device has been around for years?

No need for them to go losing or giving the stuff away. You can very easily order the stuff for as little as €6 from security discount germany. I'll not post a link to the website but you can find it very easily. They ship to Ireland in discrete unmarked parcels.
And no, I didn't order them. It was well documented in an article a few months back by a newspaper reporter, who ordered... a pepepr spray, stun gun and ASP directly to their door without any problems whatsoever delivered within 2-3 days!

Biggins · 24-10-2008 12:52PM

Homer wrote: »

No need for them to go losing or giving the stuff away. You can very easily order the stuff for as little as €6 from security discount germany. I'll not post a link to the website but you can find it very easily. They ship to Ireland in discrete unmarked parcels.
And no, I didn't order them. It was well documented in an article a few months back by a newspaper reporter, who ordered... a pepepr spray, stun gun and ASP directly to their door without any problems whatsoever delivered within 2-3 days!

Well until I see the majority of teens flashing their credit cards (to be able to order these), I will sleep easy knowing that the likelihood of an Irish teen spraying one in my face is as likely as you or I winning the lotto

The fact that the sprays have ALREADY been around for sometime and apparently purchasable, just proves the unlikelihood of been accosted by one. Has it happened yet already?
Giving them now to Gardi will make no difference to your argument about the increasing chances of this happening.

seamus · 24-10-2008 12:53PM

Homer wrote: »

No need for them to go losing or giving the stuff away. You can very easily order the stuff for as little as €6 from security discount germany. I'll not post a link to the website but you can find it very easily. They ship to Ireland in discrete unmarked parcels.
And no, I didn't order them. It was well documented in an article a few months back by a newspaper reporter, who ordered... a pepepr spray, stun gun and ASP directly to their door without any problems whatsoever delivered within 2-3 days!

Well this is the thing. For years and years, a routine search of any group of school kids coming back from a trip abroad would turn up slingshots, large knives, tasers and no doubt pepper spray.

So if the public can easily get their hands on these kinds of things, why should we be worried about Gardai having them?

Homer · 24-10-2008 01:00PM

Biggins wrote: »

Well until I see the majority of teens flashing their credit cards (to be able to order these), I will sleep easy knowing that the likelihood of an Irish teen spraying one in my face is as likely as you or I winning the lotto

The fact that the sprays have ALREADY been around for sometime and apparently purchasable, just proves the unlikelihood of been accosted by one. Has it happened yet already?
Giving them now to Gardi will make no difference to your argument about the increasing chances of this happening.

Oh no i'm all for the guards having them. I was simply replying to the person who made the comment about the guards giving them away or losing them.. Was simply pointing out how easy they are to purchase for anyone over 18 with a credit card.
Wasn't contradicting your points at all. Quite the opposite

Dinter · 24-10-2008 01:02PM

Well according to the google add at the bottom of this page www.dealtime.uk will sell pepper spray to you!!

Ironic!

Biggins · 24-10-2008 01:09PM

Homer wrote: »

Oh no i'm all for the guards having them....

Glad to see we're on the same side. Now the next step is to getting the Gardi to be issued with rocket launchers to stop the joyriders! :eek:

Zangetsu · 24-10-2008 01:22PM

So if your drunk in public at 2.30 because you missed the offo as it closed at 10pm you will be fined and pepper-sprayed by the garda.

Sounds like a good night out to me

Run_to_da_hills · 24-10-2008 01:43PM

Homer wrote: »

No need for them to go losing or giving the stuff away. You can very easily order the stuff for as little as €6 from security discount germany. I'll not post a link to the website but you can find it very easily. They ship to Ireland in discrete unmarked parcels.
And no, I didn't order them. It was well documented in an article a few months back by a newspaper reporter, who ordered... a pepepr spray, stun gun and ASP directly to their door without any problems whatsoever delivered within 2-3 days!

You will soon not be able to order this stuff on line. It is due to be e_tagged along with other prohibited and restricted goods. It will be traceable from source and can be detected by customs at port of entry through electronic portal and hand scanners.

Dinter · 24-10-2008 02:44PM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

You will soon not be able to order this stuff on line. It is due to be e_tagged along with other prohibited and restricted goods. It will be traceable from source and can be detected by customs at port of entry through electronic portal and hand scanners.

Good.

redout · 24-10-2008 02:54PM

Homer wrote: »

No need for them to go losing or giving the stuff away. You can very easily order the stuff for as little as €6 from security discount germany. I'll not post a link to the website but you can find it very easily. They ship to Ireland in discrete unmarked parcels.
And no, I didn't order them. It was well documented in an article a few months back by a newspaper reporter, who ordered... a pepepr spray, stun gun and ASP directly to their door without any problems whatsoever delivered within 2-3 days!

Anyone been watching Customs on RTE lately. They seem to have gotten alot more professional now with regular search of all mail. I am sure one of those dogs would have no problem in detecting the likes of pepperspray sent through the post.

She Devil · 24-10-2008 03:25PM

This thread is embarrassing!!!!!
You know it took a guard to get stabbed in Raheny for the police force to be introduced with stab vests! It is only too right they have some form of protection to stop a violent situation becoming out of hand! My OH is a guard, I am terrified when he is on his week of nights, he is 6ft 5 and he still gets attacked, he wouldnt ever use force where not neccesary and agrees even if this pepper spray is used, the guard in question will probably have to go through months of questioning before he can justify using it.
Ireland is a joke, look at englands force with their taser's and every other country in the world almost with their guns, i'd feel much safer if the guard protecting me had the equipment to do so!

metman · 25-10-2008 12:21AM

She Devil - its nice to know there are still some folks out there with some common sense. I'm an ex-pat serving copper in London and we carry incapacitant spray and some of our units carry Taser, which is being issued routinely next year. Despite this we still get threatened, assaulted, stabbed and shot at. However, at least we are issued kit that assists us in enforcing the law and protecting ourselves in so doing, not to mention protecting joe public. This is more than the Guards have had for a long time, we were issued CS Spray in 1995 and the Irish Government is only now thinking enough of its cops to issue them spray :rolleyes:

Carry on lookin after your fella!

Gardai are to be issued with pepper spray.

Comments