British friends of Ireland

ejmaztec · 17-10-2008 10:53pm

Pgibson wrote: »

Professor Lecky a British Protestant and ardent British sympathizer, said in his "History of Ireland in the 18th Century" that the object of the Penal Laws was threefold:
"To deprive Catholics of all civil life; to reduce them to a condition of extreme, brutal ignorance; and, to disassociate them from the soil.:
Lecky said, "He might with absolute justice, substitute Irish for Catholic, "and added a fourth objective: "To expatriate the race." Most scholars agree that the Penal Laws helped set the stage for the injustices that occurred during The Great Famine and fueled the fires of racism that were directed against the Irish by the British.

How the average English person saw the Irish:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/Punch_Anti-Irish_propaganda_%281882%29_Irish_Frankenstein.jpg

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Well, the satirist obviously wasn't that smart, as most people know that Frankenstein was the name of the doctor, not his "creature".

Pgibson · 18-10-2008 9:10am

ejmaztec wrote: »

Well, the satirist obviously wasn't that smart, as most people know that Frankenstein was the name of the doctor, not his "creature".

You didn't read the small print at the bottom of the cartoon.

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MarchDub · 18-10-2008 12:40pm

Pgibson wrote: »

You didn't read the small print at the bottom of the cartoon.

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Absolutely - the term came to mean - and still does - any creature that is created and gets entirely out of the control of its master.

What is further significant about this depiction is the simian features of the "monster" - the Irish were frequently depicted in the British press as ape creatures, lower down the line of development to the British.

The Brits would do the same throughout their possessions. Justifying their presence - i.e "there to civilise" and consequently justify their continued presence in parts of the world that they had invaded.

MarchDub · 18-10-2008 1:12pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

I would further surmise that this is the reason for the Irish having the label "thick" attached, given that there was no education available.

No, this was the result of a widespread English propaganda machine that depicted the Irish that way in order to justify the conquest of Ireland.

In fact, Irish education remained somewhat intact in the hedge schools where very remarkable scholars worked for practically nothing outside of the system.

Irish literature in English - from when it first emerges in the late seventeenth century is full of attacks on this English depiction. Swift took it on and so especially did Maria Edgesworth. Irish writers challenged the English caricature of the Irish as being stupid, lazy, irrational etc. The danger of these caricatures is that the English come to believe their own propaganda and acted accordingly.

The view that the English fostered about the Irish tells more about English needs than Irish reality.

ejmaztec · 18-10-2008 2:58pm

Pgibson wrote: »

You didn't read the small print at the bottom of the cartoon.

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My 20 20 vision is a thing of the past, like history.

getz · 18-10-2008 3:50pm

marchdub --are you looking at yourself in a mirror ?- or is that what you think the english believed ?untill the 19th century 95% of people in the uk could not read or write , no tv no radio could not read papers and being irish to them was no different than coming from london glasgow or newcastle i have a few old papers from about 1823 to 1888 so the reality is a lot different from the so called anti/british statements you see on the boards today--in one of my papers it is talking about money for building railway lines in wicklow/wexford to help farming to expand -and please dont give me the old english landlord crap -most of the land owners were irish born--if you want to learn real history try to read the papers of the day not the history the english or the irish are saying happend-i am sure you can get access to the old irish press on line-read them you will be surprised-as well as knowing irish history better

Pgibson · 20-10-2008 12:50pm

Benjamin Disraeli the British..and Irish... Prime Minister was another great "Friend of Ireland".

This is what he said:

"The Irish hate our order, our civilization, our enterprising industry, our pure religion. This wild, reckless, indolent, uncertain and superstitious race have no sympathy with the English character. Their ideal of human felicity is an alternation of clannish broils and coarse idolatry.

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Pgibson · 20-10-2008 1:08pm

MarchDub wrote: »

The danger of these caricatures is that the English come to believe their own propaganda and acted accordingly..

Many did believe the propaganda.
This is what the historian Charles Kingsley said about the Irish at the height of the famine:

"I am daunted by the human chimpanzees I saw along that hundred miles of horrible country. I don't believe they are our fault . I believe that there are not only many more of them than of old, but that they are happier, better and more comfortably fed and lodged under our rule than they ever were. But to see white chimpanzees is dreadful; if they were black, one would not feel it so much, but their skins, except where tanned by exposure, are as white as ours."

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WAGS · 21-10-2008 3:57pm

getz wrote: »

marchdub --are you looking at yourself in a mirror ?- or is that what you think the english believed ?untill the 19th century 95% of people in the uk could not read or write , no tv no radio could not read papers and being irish to them was no different than coming from london glasgow or newcastle i have a few old papers from about 1823 to 1888 so the reality is a lot different from the so called anti/british statements you see on the boards today--in one of my papers it is talking about money for building railway lines in wicklow/wexford to help farming to expand -and please dont give me the old english landlord crap -most of the land owners were irish born--if you want to learn real history try to read the papers of the day not the history the english or the irish are saying happend-i am sure you can get access to the old irish press on line-read them you will be surprised-as well as knowing irish history better

You are 100% correct and it's quite shocking to find such historical distortions still rampant in the 21st Century.
Throughout the centuries the average "English" "Welsh" or "Scottish" subject was no different to the average "Irish" subject. Most were uneducated, poor agricultural labourers who were neglected by their Government and the Upper classes that ruled their lives. The average British subject had no vote, Catholics and other non-conformists were treated in the same way as the Irish. Education did not become mandatory until 1870 and not free until 1891 and child labour was common.
Hunger and disease was rampant well into the 20th Century across Great Britain. There were frequent Cholera epidemics and the same class of person that thought the Irish peasants were monkeys had the same opinion towards all they considered of lower class.
I doubt that any average person living in Sussex had any idea what was going on in Brighton let alone across the sea in Ireland.
Punch was founded in July 1841 and sold an average of 6000 copies per week. Not exactly widespread circulation. Many of the original Punch writers and cartoonists had left the magazine by 1850 in protest at it's anti-Catholic leanings.
It should also be remembered that joining the mass exodus of Irish to the brave new world, was a mass exodus of English, Scottish and Welsh sometimes sharing the same almost inhuman conditions aboard "immigrant" ships.
It shocks me that so many people on these forums blame the British people as a whole for what happened in Ireland during the 17th, 18th and 19th Centuries, like somehow they had some choice or control over what went on, when the reality was that their lives were no different to that of the average Irish.

Pgibson · 21-10-2008 4:28pm

WAGS wrote: »

It shocks me that so many people on these forums blame the British people as a whole for what happened in Ireland during the 17th, 18th and 19th Centuries, like somehow they had some choice or control over what went on, when the reality was that their lives were no different to that of the average Irish.

I agree with the above.
(I never "blamed" anyone in any of my posts.)

A little known fact about pre-famine Ireland was that the Irish were among the tallest people in Europe.

They were better fed!

The Irish diet of fresh vitamin-packed potatoes was a heck of a lot better than the dried biscuits and salted meat and fish that the city dwellers of much of Europe had to endure.

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Pgibson · 22-10-2008 8:29am

ejmaztec wrote: »

My 20 20 vision is a thing of the past, like history.

The tiny print at the bottom is enigmatic.

It is almost as though the cartoonist is laying the blame for the “Monster” on England!

This is exactly what it says:

“ The baneful and blood-stained Monster *** yet was it not my Master to the very extent that it was my Creature? *** Had I not breathed into it my own spirit?” *** (Extract from the Works of C.S.P-r n-LL,M.P. )

Make of it what you will !

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WAGS · 22-10-2008 10:11am

Pgibson wrote: »

The tiny print at the bottom is enigmatic.

It is almost as though the cartoonist is laying the blame for the “Monster” on England!

This is exactly what it says:

“ The baneful and blood-stained Monster *** yet was it not my Master to the very extent that it was my Creature? *** Had I not breathed into it my own spirit?” *** (Extract from the Works of C.S.P-r n-LL,M.P. )

Make of it what you will !

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I would have said the "Crown or Parliament" not England, but this new "make of it as you will" explanation is directly opposite to what you originally wrote which was:
"How the average English person saw the Irish:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ankenstein.jpg"

This Punch cartoonist work represents an editorial view of the magazine editors and the cartoonist. It was drawn to appeal to the 6000 magazine customers and would have never been seen by the average person.

The views whatever they may actually have been in this cartoon represents a specific time period in history and should be discussed as related to events in this period and not in a wider context and I am sure that nobody today views citizens of the Republic of Ireland as monsters.

However, by reading some of the posts on these very public forums (which can be accessed by people like me from all around the world) suggesting that some citizens of the Irish Republic still hold deep seated negative feelings towards the United Kingdom and its people.

As a foreigner (neither an Irish nor a UK citizen, but with Irish, Scottish and English heritage) it's hard for me to understand why people who were never part of this terrible part of history still cling onto such negative feelings and attitudes towards those who were also not around during this time.

I live in a nation (I am not a citizen of it either) that was invaded by every Tom, Dick and Harry (except the British) in Europe and beyond. It suffered greatly from many internal religious (sectarian) conflicts (including Irish involvement dating back to the 8th Century), yet has managed to "get over it" since gaining independence.

As a writer with three Irish related projects in work I recently drove around Ireland on a research/holiday. I thoroughly enjoyed meeting and talking to the locals and I never heard anything like what I have read in some of these forums even though it was a research trip and I sought to extract information and opinions.
However, I am comforted in the knowledge that these extremist views are those of the minority, expressed anonymously over the internet and unlikely to be carried over into the real world.

Pgibson · 22-10-2008 10:27am

WAGS wrote: »

"How the average English person saw the Irish"

I stand by that statement.

We Irish have long memories of the contempt we received,worldwide, in the wake of the famine.

That does not make me an extremist or a Provo terrorist.

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getz · 22-10-2008 10:49am

it is so sad that anyone who reads the theads on the boards has to see this anti/british hate i am sure that people all over the world who read this believe that the irish all think the same.those of us who know better find that the citizens of the irish republic are the most warm and friendly people one can meet, as a englishman i have never met one person over in ireland who had anything nasty to say to me--after all most of them have a british family--and most the older one have lived in the uk-and the younger ones intend to some time in there lives

Fratton Fred · 22-10-2008 10:55am

Pgibson wrote: »

I stand by that statement.

We Irish have long memories of the contempt we received,worldwide, in the wake of the famine.

That does not make me an extremist or a Provo terrorist.

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that doesn't make sense.

surely you must mean that is the way the average person not of irish decent saw the Irish?

I admire you longevity though, that must make you around 170 years old?

Pgibson · 22-10-2008 12:11pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

that doesn't make sense.

surely you must mean that is the way the average person not of irish decent saw the Irish?

I admire you longevity though, that must make you around 170 years old?

Sure everyone knows that we Leprecauns live for thousands and thousands of years, begod an begorrah.

Many of the anti-Irish were the “Scotch-Irish” in America.

The welcome the “Land of the Free” gave the Irish:

http://www.rzuser.uni-heidelberg.de/~el6/presentations/Irish_Americans_S2_WS2003/Anti_Irish_Sentiment.htm

WAGS · 22-10-2008 12:58pm

getz wrote: »

it is so sad that anyone who reads the theads on the boards has to see this anti/british hate i am sure that people all over the world who read this believe that the irish all think the same.those of us who know better find that the citizens of the irish republic are the most warm and friendly people one can meet, as a englishman i have never met one person over in ireland who had anything nasty to say to me--after all most of them have a british family--and most the older one have lived in the uk-and the younger ones intend to some time in there lives

I could not agree more and the Irish people I have served with (military), worked with (civilian) and met (looked after me and my wife on our recent trip), talked and drunk with on their home turf have been the best of the best.

Fratton Fred · 22-10-2008 1:12pm

Pgibson wrote: »

Sure everyone knows that we Leprecauns live for thousands and thousands of years, begod an begorrah.

Many of the anti-Irish were the “Scotch-Irish” in America.

The welcome the “Land of the Free” gave the Irish:

http://www.rzuser.uni-heidelberg.de/~el6/presentations/Irish_Americans_S2_WS2003/Anti_Irish_Sentiment.htm

I remember reading a book, years ago, about the general history of Ireland, in it were references to the Scotish Presbytarians. I think the qoute in the book was something like they could farm sheep with a bible in one hand and a gun in the other. These were the people that moved to Ulster and then onto north america as frontier people.

They were brave people who went through a lot of hardship, but were also pretty brutal in protecting themselves and claiming land.

I'll try and dig the book out, it was very heavy reading but quite informative.

WAGS · 22-10-2008 1:15pm

Pgibson wrote: »

I stand by that statement.

We Irish have long memories of the contempt we received,worldwide, in the wake of the famine.

That does not make me an extremist or a Provo terrorist.

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Firstly you have mixed up the themes in my post. I could have done them individually, but decided (against my better nature) to mix them.
Only one paragraph was devoted to your comments about how the average person saw the Irish, which I say is absolute garbage, but I respect your right to an opinion even though I disagree with it.

The other themes were general in nature and not aimed at you.

However, this latest statement is really off the wall. You have no memory of the famine because you were not there. You have been taught to believe a certain point of view and carry that with you today.
Many (read most) nations have received bad press over the centuries, our neighbours, I can see two from my balcony, but their citizens don't walk around with great big chips on their shoulders about it.
The Ireland that suffered during the famine times is not the Ireland of today anyway.
I have never heard anyone speak ill of Ireland or its people because of the famine, only with sympathy and condolence. In fact I would add the words "admiration and respect."
There was quite a lot of rivalry in the US between Scottish and Irish immigrants so you take anything said from these quarters with a pinch of salt.

Pgibson · 22-10-2008 1:50pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I admire you longevity though, that must make you around 170 years old?

Some people can remember all the way back to 1690.

Unfortunately!

http://www.zazzle.com/ulster_flag_ulster_remember1690_sticker-217083899604115109

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WAGS · 22-10-2008 2:45pm

Pgibson wrote: »

Some people can remember all the way back to 1690.

Unfortunately!

http://www.zazzle.com/ulster_flag_ulster_remember1690_sticker-217083899604115109

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Yes this is also very sad.
I recommend for all those who remember all these things from the past from all sides, but still hold grudges, get together and have great big forgiveness parties. Forgive everything, individual and collective from the past that is believed to have wronged individuals and the nation.
It works well and everyone will feel much better after.
Never forget, commemorate where necessary, but forgive and remove the negative emotions forever.
As corny as some might think this concept is, it does work. It's very hard to make that final leap, but once the burden is lifted, new directions and horizons may open.

WAGS · 22-10-2008 3:10pm

Pgibson wrote: »

Some people can remember all the way back to 1690.

Unfortunately!

http://www.zazzle.com/ulster_flag_ulster_remember1690_sticker-217083899604115109

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By the way I have never understood why some get so upset with this 1690 stuff. What's on this website is the Battle Cry of the losers. The invasion by the Dutchman and his cronies was just one step in a long process, that would lead Ireland and it's people down the road to freedom.
The Irish people, especially the Catholics have withstood everything that the Vikings, Norman King Henry II, King Bruce I of Scotland, King Henry VIII, Elizabeth I, Oliver Cromwell, the Dutchman William of Orange, famine, greed, neglect, poverty, disrespect and civil war has thrown at them, to come out the other side as a proud independent nation, with a culture that is envied and marvelled at by many.
Maybe its time to celebrate what the Irish nation is, its freedom and not keep looking back at its glorious defeats. The Irish might have lost a lot of battles over the centuries, but the war was won a long time ago, start celebrating it.

ejmaztec · 22-10-2008 3:11pm

WAGS wrote: »

Yes this is also very sad.
I recommend for all those who remember all these things from the past from all sides, but still hold grudges, get together and have great big forgiveness parties. Forgive everything, individual and collective from the past that is believed to have wronged individuals and the nation.
It works well and everyone will feel much better after.
Never forget, commemorate where necessary, but forgive and remove the negative emotions forever.
As corny as some might think this concept is, it does work. It's very hard to make that final leap, but once the burden is lifted, new directions and horizons may open.

I did suggest "hugs" some time ago, but it's a bit difficult on the internet. If there is a forgiveness party, all weapons should be left in the cloakroom. :eek:

Pgibson · 22-10-2008 3:13pm

WAGS wrote: »

Yes this is also very sad.
I recommend for all those who remember all these things from the past from all sides, but still hold grudges, get together and have great big forgiveness parties. Forgive everything, individual and collective from the past that is believed to have wronged individuals and the nation.
It works well and everyone will feel much better after.
Never forget, commemorate where necessary, but forgive and remove the negative emotions forever.
As corny as some might think this concept is, it does work. It's very hard to make that final leap, but once the burden is lifted, new directions and horizons may open.

It is largely "past history" in the Irish Republic.

But not if you are living around Belfast:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2001/sep/04/northernireland.schools1

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MarchDub · 22-10-2008 7:19pm

WAGS wrote: »

You are 100% correct and it's quite shocking to find such historical distortions still rampant in the 21st Century.
Throughout the centuries the average "English" "Welsh" or "Scottish" subject was no different to the average "Irish" subject. Most were uneducated, poor agricultural labourers who were neglected by their Government and the Upper classes that ruled their lives. The average British subject had no vote, Catholics and other non-conformists were treated in the same way as the Irish. Education did not become mandatory until 1870 and not free until 1891 and child labour was common.
Hunger and disease was rampant well into the 20th Century across Great Britain. There were frequent Cholera epidemics and the same class of person that thought the Irish peasants were monkeys had the same opinion towards all they considered of lower class.
I doubt that any average person living in Sussex had any idea what was going on in Brighton let alone across the sea in Ireland.
Punch was founded in July 1841 and sold an average of 6000 copies per week. Not exactly widespread circulation. Many of the original Punch writers and cartoonists had left the magazine by 1850 in protest at it's anti-Catholic leanings.
It should also be remembered that joining the mass exodus of Irish to the brave new world, was a mass exodus of English, Scottish and Welsh sometimes sharing the same almost inhuman conditions aboard "immigrant" ships.
It shocks me that so many people on these forums blame the British people as a whole for what happened in Ireland during the 17th, 18th and 19th Centuries, like somehow they had some choice or control over what went on, when the reality was that their lives were no different to that of the average Irish.

You are incorrect in not recognizing the dangers of the stereotyping - and the certain trickle down affect it had. Modern sociologists have published much on this - that the average Irish person going abroad in those centuries suffered discrimination as a direct result of the stereotyping seen for example, on stage - the music halls - which was a direct hand down from the upper echelons of theatre. Shakespearian "Irish" caricatures is a case in point - they trickled down to the vulgar music hall burlesque. English people did not have to be literate to be exposed to anti-Irishness .

As regards the vote in 18th century - Catholics in Ireland were especially discriminated against even long after the dissenters had been given the right to vote and sit in parliament. Even after Catholic emancipation- the quota of representation from Ireland differed from that of England so that Irish Catholics were underrepresented in Westminster.

Those of us old enough to remember have first hand experience of the trickle down affect of what government behaviour - and British newspapers - did to the average English person's attitude to the Irish in the 20th century - being refused service in small English shops in the 1970s because of being Irish is something that I can personally attest to. Pathetic. Ignorance is ignorance no matter where it originates but never underestimate the danger of it to poison the average person's mind.

ejmaztec · 23-10-2008 12:25am

MarchDub wrote: »

- being refused service in small English shops in the 1970s because of being Irish is something that I can personally attest to. Pathetic. Ignorance is ignorance no matter where it originates but never underestimate the danger of it to poison the average person's mind.

Perhaps the small shop-keepers, in their ignorance, blamed all of the Irish for the bombs that were going off at the time. You have to understand that some English people were a bit pissed off with it. A cousin of mine seemed to get interrogated by Special Branch every time he went through Holyhead, but he was a shifty looking bum at the best of times.

I used to pay for stuff with my Bank of Ireland UK cheque book in the 1970s, and despite being asked on a number of occasions whether it was a Sterling account (which it was), I was never refused by anyone. I did have an English accent however. I always imagined them searching the building after I left.

MarchDub · 23-10-2008 1:11am

ejmaztec wrote: »

Perhaps the small shop-keepers, in their ignorance, blamed all of the Irish for the bombs that were going off at the time. You have to understand that some English people were a bit pissed off with it.

But that's the point - there was no balanced coverage in the British press.

While I was a student at an English Univ in the 70s there were massive student protests being organized over the US army in Vietnam but nary a squeak from anyone about the British Army in Ireland. Very ignorant people I always thought - absolutely no sense of balance about anything to do with their own culpability.

WAGS · 24-10-2008 8:30am

MarchDub wrote: »

You are incorrect in not recognizing the dangers of the stereotyping - and the certain trickle down affect it had. Modern sociologists have published much on this - that the average Irish person going abroad in those centuries suffered discrimination as a direct result of the stereotyping seen for example, on stage - the music halls - which was a direct hand down from the upper echelons of theatre. Shakespearian "Irish" caricatures is a case in point - they trickled down to the vulgar music hall burlesque. English people did not have to be literate to be exposed to anti-Irishness .

As regards the vote in 18th century - Catholics in Ireland were especially discriminated against even long after the dissenters had been given the right to vote and sit in parliament. Even after Catholic emancipation- the quota of representation from Ireland differed from that of England so that Irish Catholics were underrepresented in Westminster.

Those of us old enough to remember have first hand experience of the trickle down affect of what government behaviour - and British newspapers - did to the average English person's attitude to the Irish in the 20th century - being refused service in small English shops in the 1970s because of being Irish is something that I can personally attest to. Pathetic. Ignorance is ignorance no matter where it originates but never underestimate the danger of it to poison the average person's mind.

I fully understand that I am peeing into the wind here, but there's no harm in trying. I cannot and will not debate excuses. Most people in the world have been harmed in some way by others, one either gets past it or lives in the past and allow the bad feelings to fester. The really sad thing is that those who live with the hatred of the past, pass it onto their children and they pass it onto their children and so on and so on. Then one day it starts all over again.
Look at what happened in the Balkans. The common enemy was removed and the three main ethnic groups turned on each other and we including the Irish Republic stood back and let them butcher each other.
Look at Irish history. The enemy made a deal, but Irish turned against Irish because 80% of something was not enough for some and thousands more died and no British Regiments doing the killing this time, but I am sure they get blamed anyway.
Unless the cancer of hate is cut out, history has a habit of repeating itself, but you have to do this yourselves and as I said am not interested in debating excuses of why something can't be done.

WAGS · 24-10-2008 8:58am

MarchDub wrote: »

But that's the point - there was no balanced coverage in the British press.

While I was a student at an English Univ in the 70s there were massive student protests being organized over the US army in Vietnam but nary a squeak from anyone about the British Army in Ireland. Very ignorant people I always thought - absolutely no sense of balance about anything to do with their own culpability.

There's no hope.:eek:

Pgibson · 24-10-2008 10:40am

MarchDub wrote: »

being refused service in small English shops in the 1970s because of being Irish is something that I can personally attest to.

I was a Train Guard on the London Underground in the 1970s.

There was ONE reason, and ONE reason only, why many English people became wary and sometimes hostile to Irish people.

That reason was the rain of bombs IRA terrorists unleashed on London.

List Here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_bombings

Most London Irish hated the IRA even more than the Londoners did because all Irish working in London were made suspects.

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British friends of Ireland

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