British friends of Ireland

McArmalite

Pgibson wrote: »

Interesting how Armelite wielding IRA Terrorists gave Northern Ireland over to Ian Paisley and caused the Irish Republic to recognise N.I. as "British" in its constitution.

They murdered thousands in the process.

Big Grin indeed.

.

Gerry, Marty and co. didn't " gave Northern Ireland over to Ian Paisley ". it was scarficied to the brits and enforced on the country by 'Free' State in 1922. As for trying to legitimise british occupation of the six counties, I was TOTALLY against it, I campaigned against their dropping, Save Articles 2 & 3 was the name of the campaign. Indeed I had some very heated words with my former 'friends' from 'Sinn Fein' which almost ended in fisticuffs outside the Portobello pub in Dublin !!!!!!! :rolleyes: Tiocfaidh ar la as my former friends from SF used to say .

( BTW, the government had been conniving to get rid of Articiles 2 & 3 from back in the mid 60's )

" They murdered thousands in the process. " Well you got that one right, UVF/british forces did indeed murder thousands in the process, and unfortunatley the brits are still murdering "thousands in the process" in Iraq and Afghanistan - but we wouldn't see 'terrorist' haters like yourself condeming them too often - if at all - will we ??

brianthebard wrote: »

Well it was only after the Parnell period that people began to think of Ireland as a Catholic Island exclusively, with a connection being established between Home rule and the catholic church in order to gain support. this led to a turning away of Ulster protestants from an Irish identity and a crystallisation of their core british values as they saw them.

Sorry I didn't include this line of argument from your the previous post, yes indeed Irish nationalism was hijacked in the 1800's to equate it with Catholicism, mainly due to the oppurtunism and absoulute lack of morals of the so called 'liberator' Daniel O'Connell and ofcourse the power hunger Catholic church. Nobody got it more right than James Connolly when he described the Catholic church as Ireland's second greatest enemy......... but I cann't nor wouldn't go into each and every possible detail, scenario and event regarding the Catholic church's role in the matter in a quick reply to someone.

Indeed I have often thought that the role of the Catholic church in aiding and abetting british mass murder and occupation would be a very good theme for a thread, something I may do in the near future.

brianthebard

Well the catholic church within the british empire is a complex issue and deserves a thread.I'll leave it to you to frame the debate.

McArmalite

walrusgumble wrote: »

if you are going to bother replying please read this in full , becasue you are getting the wrong end of the stick and making comments i am not even making arguments to or disagreeing to, particularily any time after 1916!

1. Issue of Irish in Crown Forces. The history books would be a start - read Robert Kee's Green Flag of Nationalism. The issue of most of Crown's forces in ireland being Irish is not off topic, as it was also Irish People themselves who actually did the evil work of the Crown against the Irish. So are you saying the Royal Dublin Fusilars and Royal Irish Regiments which were based as Collins Barracks during 1916 were actually mostly born in the island of Britian? I think i actually stated something along the lines as far up to "1916" many of the crown forces were irish. normally by stating that word "up to" would be a cut off point. so everything facts recorded in history after is there for all to read that england were a shower of thugs , and no one is goign to argue with you as one would probably be in agreement.

i never referred or would ever refer to war of independence and was careful not to - but of course you went flying in:rolleyes:. to have referred to war of independence was be wrong and inaccurate becasue 1916 really and trully changed irish men's attitude of joining the crown forces, tom barry will testify to that, even members of the connaught rangers who were executed in some place around india after protesting about the way the rebels were treated after surrendering. i was clearly referring to the accounts of rebellions such as 1690, 1798, Emmet's rebellion, Stephen's rebellion and even in parts 1916.

how the hell could britian properly trust irish regiments to deal with this country after 1916, even if they had the forces to do so? could they have really trusted them?

2. Re previous rebellions. Yes there were informers, there always was, even during the war of independence, only collins and co outsmarted them. as for the churches you do make a decent point, particularily the catholic church - always on the side of the winner:rolleyes: i concede on this point, as to go and say eg well the irish people forgot the church in 1916 and 1919(all though church started to support the cause then) despite still being brainwashed woudl be ludricous

3. Re King's visit - i don't know about that but as far as links, check out the local libruary and check the old newspapers at the time, even the more nationalist toned papers. Dublin put on a big show there, i agree and am aware that there were many unionists in dublin - both catholic and protestant, but the king got some reception all the same! i suggest you check out the primary source of the newspaper accounts (noting certain papers were unashamely unionists).

Firstly apologies, I did read your post #15 in it's entirity and din't quote it in full due to thinking it would make my whole post too long. However as I'm not going to go thru a posting whole word for word, line for line, I quote the parts I have most contention with.

1. Issue of Irish in Crown Forces. The history books would be a start - read Robert Kee's Green Flag of Nationalism. "

Well I would have thought that it was obvious I have read quite a lot of history books and I have yet to see where it stated that most of Crown's forces in Ireland being Irish up to 1916, but if it's such a commonly stated fact I'm sure you can give me the relevant details of other books besides Kee's mentioning this fact ( and Kee is known for his problemising of Irish nationalism ). Indeed if it's as commonly known fact as you say it is, surely you know relevant web pages stating this and can you post them.

My line of argument about Irish recruited regiments been sent to the far side of the globe for obvious military considerations - having weapons in the hands of potential mutinious rebels - is actually from an article by James Connolly and he sites various instances to support this. To be honest I cann't remeber which particular one it is, but since your so familiar with James Connolly I would have thought you might have taken Connolly's assertions onboard rather than Robert Kee.

The issue of most of Crown's forces in ireland being Irish is not off topic, as it was also Irish People themselves who actually did the evil work of the Crown against the Irish.So are you saying the Royal Dublin Fusilars and Royal Irish Regiments which were based as Collins Barracks during 1916 were actually mostly born in the island of Britian? I think i actually stated something along the lines as far up to "1916" many of the crown forces were irish.

When I said we'ree going off topic I stated this in relation to the OP - British friends of Ireland - rather than a discusssion about the composition of the crown forces in Ireland, but a worthwhile discussion it is. Ofcourse thier were Irish regiments based in Dublin, never said that their were no Irish regiments used in occupying the country, my point been that MOST of the britsh forces used in occupying Ireland where from England, Scotland and Wales, with the potential mutiny of Irish soldiers been avoided by having them across the globe, which makes obvious military commonsense, a policy used long before 1916.

2. Re previous rebellions. Yes there were informers, there always was, even during the war of independence, only collins and co outsmarted them. as for the churches you do make a decent point, particularily the catholic church - always on the side of the winner:rolleyes: i concede on this point, as to go and say eg well the irish people forgot the church in 1916 and 1919(all though church started to support the cause then) despite still being brainwashed woudl be ludricous

" 1916 and 1919(all though church started to support the cause then) ". Nothing could be further from the truth, to suggest such is in your own words - ludricous. Just read Tom Barry, Tim Pat Coogan etc

3. Re King's visit - i don't know about that but as far as links, check out the local libruary and check the old newspapers at the time, even the more nationalist toned papers. Dublin put on a big show there, i agree and am aware that there were many unionists in dublin - both catholic and protestant, but the king got some reception all the same! i suggest you check out the primary source of the newspaper accounts (noting certain papers were unashamely unionists).

Yes that useless parasite Edward got some receprtion, just like Lady Di or Elvis would. Certain papers were indeed unashamely unionist, and some still are such as Independant Newspapers.

LordSutch

In reality relations between Britain & Ireland are at an all time 'high'

But sadly there will always be an unjustified undercurrent in many Irish people minds of Anti-British sentiment, due mainly to ignorance & bigatory & an a-la-carte take on Anglo-Irish History!

Like it or not, we are living on the british isles, the island next door is Britain, most of the people up North are british, a massive part of our economy is linked to the British economy, most of us have British connections, many of us follow british (English) football teams & watch British TV - in fact I would say that we are so close to being british ourselves that it hardly makes any difference

Apart from the fact that we are 'Irish' & we dont like being friends with the British

1 Tony Blair
2 William Gladstone
3 Winston Churchill

Pgibson

The True "British" are the Celts of Scotland, Wales and Cornwall.

The Saxons are pure Germans who invaded Britain from Saxony around the time of St. Patrick.

(80% of the ordinary English words we use today are of German origin.)

The word "Welsh" is the Saxon word for "Foreigners" or "Aliens".

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SlabMurphy

Camelot wrote: »

In reality relations between Britain & Ireland are at an all time 'high'

But sadly there will always be an unjustified undercurrent in many Irish people minds of Anti-British sentiment, due mainly to ignorance & bigatory & an a-la-carte take on Anglo-Irish History!

Like it or not, we are living on the british isles, the island next door is Britain, most of the people up North are british, a massive part of our economy is linked to the British economy, most of us have British connections, many of us follow british (English) football teams & watch British TV - in fact I would say that we are so close to being british ourselves that it hardly makes any difference

Apart from the fact that we are 'Irish' & we dont like being friends with the British

1 Tony Blair
2 William Gladstone
3 Winston Churchill

What a load of total bollox. Where the hell do your type come from. Obviously your a supporter of this West Brit organistaion called Reform http://www.reform.org/ which is made up of mostly Sir Tony O'Reilly's top 'journalists' such as Ruth Dudley Ellis, Conor Cruise O'Brien, Eoghan Harris etc and other genuine crackpots who are also all members of the flat earth society no doubt.

" Like it or not, we are living on the british isles, " Ireland is an IRISH island, not a British one.

" the island next door is Britain " Very clever there Professor, your a genius.

" most of the people up North are british " A shrinking majority in the six counties claim to be British, at the moment it's about 54% to 46%. But with the fenian birth rate, the northern statelet hasn't got long before the papes out number them, glad to let you know .

" a massive part of our economy is linked to the British economy " Yes but most of it is linked to Europe and America. Besides it's not unusual for a small country beside a larger one to have strong economic links, for example Denmark and Germany, Portugal and Spain etc.

" most of us have British connections, " Some of us have relations in England, ( whose children generally regard themselves as Irish, check out the Irish Post newspaper for Irish people over there and see for yourself), some of us also have relations in America, how can that mean we're actually American ?

" many of us follow british (English) football teams " True, ( though the number of players in it from England seems to be getting smaller and smaller every year it seems . Also not to mention the owners of the clubs. Indeed, could it be called an Englsih league at all but an international one ). The vast majority of people who follow soccer and rugby and indeed sports in general, also follow Gaelic games. Gaelic games are still easily the most populiar sports throughout the country, no other sports can come within a fraction of the crowds that attend the All Ireland championships. Don't assume everyone is a brit/west brit like you.

" watch British TV " Yes, and we also watch tons of American TV and also Aussie soaps and nature documentary's etc

" in fact I would say that we are so close to being british ourselves that it hardly makes any difference " Even more total bollx. What next from him, probably he'll want Britain to reinvade the 26 counties I suppose ??:rolleyes: And stop using the word we as you obviously see yourself as a brit, the rest of us are happily Irish .

As for Blair, Gladstone and Churchill - already been well covered the dirtbags that they were.

Pgibson

I think McArmalite and SlabMurphy are fighting long dead wars.

Nobody cares about your wars any more guys.

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LordSutch

SlabMurphy wrote: »

What a load of total bollox. Where the hell do your type come from. Obviously your a supporter of this West Brit organistaion called Reform http://www.reform.org/ which is made up of mostly Sir Tony O'Reilly's top 'journalists' such as Ruth Dudley Ellis, Conor Cruise O'Brien, Eoghan Harris etc and other genuine crackpots who are also all members of the flat earth society no doubt.

Us type 'as you put it' come from Ireland but value our links & connections with the people, the cultural connections, & the blood ties with the rest of the british isles, oh - and by the way, Thank you for that Link, I suspect I will fit right-in there )

SlabMurphy wrote: »

" Like it or not, we are living on the british isles, " Ireland is an IRISH island, not a British one.

The term british isles refers to the archipelago (group of islands) off the coast of Brittany (ireland inc).

SlabMurphy wrote: »

" most of the people up North are british " A shrinking majority in the six counties claim to be British, at the moment it's about 54% to 46%. But with the fenian birth rate, the northern statelet hasn't got long before the papes out number them, glad to let you know .

I am sure somebody will query your figures, but how quickly will the balance shift? and what about the imponderables like immigrents (Unionist or Nationalist)? the future is up to them - And if they leave the UK that's their decision.

SlabMurphy wrote: »

Gaelic games are still easily the most populiar sports throughout the country, no other sports can come within a fraction of the crowds that attend the All Ireland championships. Don't assume everyone is a brit/west brit like you.

Indeed, but I still think that there is a sizeable proportion of the Irish population who follow English Premiership teams like ManU, Liverpool, Chelsea, Newcastle, etc etc - maybe even some of those Irish football supporters they are west brits too :rolleyes:

SlabMurphy wrote: »

" in fact I would say that we are so close to being british ourselves that it hardly makes any difference " Even more total bollx. What next from him, probably he'll want Britain to reinvade the 26 counties I suppose ??:rolleyes: And stop using the word we as you obviously see yourself as a brit, the rest of us are happily Irish .

Are we 'not allowed' to be British & Irish too?

SlabMurphy wrote: »

As for Blair, Gladstone and Churchill - already been well covered the dirtbags that they were.

I thought Blair was a true friend of Ireland by doing a huge amount for Anglo-Irish relations during his Priemiership!!! I also thank Winston Churchill for saving our bacon & keeping the Nazi's away in WWII, and Gladstone who helped to bring some form of justice to Ireland, by helping & furthering O'Connell's Catholic Emanicapation.

All three, good friends of Ireland I think.

SlabMurphy

Camelot wrote: »

Us type 'as you put it' come from Ireland but value our links & connections with the people, the cultural connections, & the blood ties with the rest of the british isles, oh - and by the way, Thank you for that Link, I suspect I will fit right-in there )



The term british isles refers to the archipelago (group of islands) off the coast of Brittany (ireland inc).



I am sure somebody will query your figures, but how quickly will the balance shift? and what about the imponderables like immigrents (Unionist or Nationalist)? the future is up to them - And if they leave the UK that's their decision.



Indeed, but I still think that there is a sizeable proportion of the Irish population who follow English Premiership teams like ManU, Liverpool, Chelsea, Newcastle, etc etc - maybe even some of those Irish football supporters they are west brits too :rolleyes:



Are we 'not allowed' to be British & Irish too?



I thought Blair was a true friend of Ireland by doing a huge amount for Anglo-Irish relations during his Priemiership!!! I also thank Winston Churchill for saving our bacon & keeping the Nazi's away in WWII, and Gladstone who helped to bring some form of justice to Ireland, by helping & furthering O'Connell's Catholic Emanicapation.

All three, good friends of Ireland I think.

Well at least you admit your a west brit. So, off you go with the flat earth society west brit association Reform.

SlabMurphy

Pgibson wrote: »

I think McArmalite and SlabMurphy are fighting long dead wars.

Nobody cares about your wars any more guys.

.

Ah yes, yet again Irish history has come to an end - indeed.

Pgibson

SlabMurphy wrote: »

Ah yes, yet again Irish history has come to an end - indeed.

Yes it has!

"The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it."...............From The Rubiyat of Omar Khayaam

Tomorrow is another day.

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McArmalite

Camelot wrote: »

Us type 'as you put it' come from Ireland but value our links & connections with the people, the cultural connections, & the blood ties with the rest of the british isles, oh - and by the way, Thank you for that Link, I suspect I will fit right-in there )



The term british isles refers to the archipelago (group of islands) off the coast of Brittany (ireland inc).



I am sure somebody will query your figures, but how quickly will the balance shift? and what about the imponderables like immigrents (Unionist or Nationalist)? the future is up to them - And if they leave the UK that's their decision.



Indeed, but I still think that there is a sizeable proportion of the Irish population who follow English Premiership teams like ManU, Liverpool, Chelsea, Newcastle, etc etc - maybe even some of those Irish football supporters they are west brits too :rolleyes:



Are we 'not allowed' to be British & Irish too?



I thought Blair was a true friend of Ireland by doing a huge amount for Anglo-Irish relations during his Priemiership!!! I also thank Winston Churchill for saving our bacon & keeping the Nazi's away in WWII, and Gladstone who helped to bring some form of justice to Ireland, by helping & furthering O'Connell's Catholic Emanicapation.

All three, good friends of Ireland I think.

Unionist troll, how boring.

McArmalite

I was thinking of doing a similiar posting titled Ba'ath Party's friends of Iraq. Maybe I could list Saddam Hussein, Chemical Ali etc, etc. It would be just about as relevant as British friends of Ireland :rolleyes:

Snickers Man

walrusgumble wrote: »

james connolly got it right when he said

"If you remove the English army tomorrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle, unless you set about the organization of the Socialist Republic your efforts would be in vain. England would still rule you. She would rule you through her capitalists, through her landlords, through her financiers, through the whole array of commercial and individualist institutions she has planted in this country and watered with the tears of our mothers and the blood of our martyrs".

well there you go. To get back on original topic. James Connolly, from Scotland (despite lying about it on his census returns) would be one Brit who had our best interests at heart.

Or Tomas Clarke, teh old Fenian who inspired the 1916 rebels and was the first signatory on the declaration of independence. He was born in England too.

Pgibson

Snickers Man wrote: »

well there you go. To get back on original topic. James Connolly, from Scotland (despite lying about it on his census returns) would be one Brit who had our best interests at heart.

Or Tomas Clarke, teh old Fenian who inspired the 1916 rebels and was the first signatory on the declaration of independence. He was born in England too.

Not to mention that other British Imperialist blow-in.

Wat-zis-name again.?

Oh yes..St. Patrick.

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McArmalite

Pgibson wrote: »

Not to mention that other British Imperialist blow-in.

Wat-zis-name again.?

Oh yes..St. Patrick.

.

The state of britian didn't exist back then Einstein.

( Still you have to give him a bit of credit though, he managed to make a post without mentioning the IRA )

ejmaztec

Pgibson wrote: »

Not to mention that other British Imperialist blow-in.

Wat-zis-name again.?

Oh yes..St. Patrick.

.

On reflection, I think that he caused more trouble in Ireland than the entire British population did over the past 1000 years. I also think that they should never have given him a visa.

Pgibson

McArmalite wrote: »

The state of britian didn't exist back then Einstein.

( Still you have to give him a bit of credit though, he managed to make a post without mentioning the IRA )

Yes it did Einstein.

The Romans called the island BRITANNIA and the inhabitants BRITONS.
For your education Einstein:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britannia


The BRITISH were the Celts who were thrown into Wales and Scotland and Cornwall and BRITTANY by the invading Germanic hordes called Saxons (Sassanach.) and Angles etc...etc..

(English is a German language.Welsh is a British language.)

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McArmalite

Pgibson wrote: »

Yes it did Einstein.

The Romans called the island BRITANNIA and the inhabitants BRITONS.
For your education Einstein:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britannia


The BRITISH were the Celts who were thrown into Wales and Scotland and Cornwall and BRITTANY by the invading Germanic hordes called Saxons (Sassanach.) and Angles etc...etc..

(English is a German language.Welsh is a British language.)

.

Scotland or Ireland weren't a part of the Roman state* of bRITANNIA, Einstein only England and Wales were. Anyway, this is pointless as it's not known if St Paddy was Welsh, French ( Gaul) or even possibly English or even if he was born on the 17th of MArch, but sure it's a good excuse for a drinkin' session, though obviously the 12th of July would be more to your taste

* A state - the territory of an administration of a government or ruler.

Pgibson

McArmalite wrote: »

Scotland or Ireland weren't a part of the Roman state* of bRITANNIA, Einstein only England and Wales were. Anyway, this is pointless as it's not known if St Paddy was Welsh, French ( Gaul) or even possibly English or even if he was born on the 17th of MArch, but sure it's a good excuse for a drinkin' session, though obviously the 12th of July would be more to your taste

* A state - the territory of an administration of a government or ruler.

Who mentioned a "state"?

Patrick was a literate Romanised Christian almost certainly nabbed from the west coast of the island known then as Britannia.

To call him British is perfectly in order.

Terrible isn't it ?

Our patron Saint is a Brit.

Just like Ian Paisley.

Woe is us poor oppressed Irish.


.

McArmalite

Pgibson wrote: »

Who mentioned a "state"?

Patrick was a literate Romanised Christian almost certainly nabbed from the west coast of the island known then as Britannia.

To call him British is perfectly in order.

Terrible isn't it ?

Our patron Saint is a Brit.

Just like Ian Paisley.

Woe is us poor oppressed Irish.


.

Then he must have had a Roman passport if he was a " Romanised Christian " as you say..... Jayus, PHB, will you shut this thread down as it's gone completely into the abyss.

Anyway, thanks for the " Our patron Saint is a Brit. Just like Ian Paisley. ". That'll be a nice little missile to throw at unionists like yourself from time to time - Ian Paisley, the patron saint of unionism

Pgibson

McArmalite wrote: »

Then he must have had a Roman passport if he was a " Romanised Christian " as you say..... Jayus, PHB, will you shut this thread down as it's gone completely into the abyss.

Anyway, thanks for the " Our patron Saint is a Brit. Just like Ian Paisley. ". That'll be a nice little missile to throw at unionists like yourself from time to time - Ian Paisley, the patron saint of unionism

Romanised Christian LOCAL.

The high and mighty REAL Romans wouldn't get themselves captured by mere Irish barbarians.

To be a Real Roman at that time was to be at the top of the pile.

"The rich Goth plays the Roman,
Only The poor Roman plays the Goth."

(from Goths being lampooned in Roman theatres.)

Ok?...Watz-yer-name again.....Oh Yes......."McAK47".

.

McArmalite

Pgibson wrote: »

Romanised Christian LOCAL.

The high and mighty REAL Romans wouldn't get themselves captured by mere Irish barbarians.

To be a Real Roman at that time was to be at the top of the pile.

"The rich Goth plays the Roman,
Only The poor Roman plays the Goth."

(from Goths being lampooned in Roman theatres.)

Ok?...Watz-yer-name again.....Oh Yes......."McAK47".

.

As I said this thread has gone completely into the abyss.

Pgibson

McArmalite wrote: »

As I said this thread has gone completely into the abyss.

It went there when you started in writing in it, McArtillery-Piece.



.

thejamescaird

Fratton Fred wrote: »

People like Parnell though, who came from an Anglo Irish family yet undoubtedly had the interests of the irish at heart. Was he British or Irish.

The same goes for George Wyndham or his great grand father Lord Edward Fitzgerald (Now there's a couple of candidates).

I mean, there is also rumours I believe that Theobald Wolfe Tone was the son of Theobald Wolfe, a cousin of Arthur Wolfe, Lord Kilwarden so maybe Wolfe Tone had Englsih blood.

The point I am making, is that with a lot of Irish figures, there is a very grey area when you try and distinguish between British and Irish

being irish or english blood is only in the mind.
dna studies show that the 2 groups are very closely related. the english are now supposed to be 60% of the native populations of the these islands before the anglo saxon and viking invasions and the irish 90%. so they are 60% us and we are 10% them. with most people with varying amounts of each others 'blood'
all these divisions are illusions created by people who thrive on hating their neighbours.

who cares if you are british or irish its only ****e

Pgibson

thejamescaird wrote: »

being irish or english blood is only in the mind.
dna studies show that the 2 groups are very closely related. the english are now supposed to be 60% of the native populations of the these islands before the anglo saxon and viking invasions and the irish 90%. so they are 60% us and we are 10% them. with most people with varying amounts of each others 'blood'
all these divisions are illusions created by people who thrive on hating their neighbours.

who cares if you are british or irish its only ****e

BOTH groups share 98% of their genes with chimpanzees.
(Why does that not surprise me!).

.

Pgibson

P.S.

The gentleman in this photo is 98% Irish and 98% English:

http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/1132743140039217872dJzdrj?vhost=outdoors

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getz

on my holidays in ireland it is not very hard to notice the amount of irish people with a british surname >it is the same over in the uk -- there is a lot of irish names --so it seems we are the same people but different tribes--my favourite irishman --patrick bronte :

Pgibson

getz wrote: »

it is not very hard to notice the amount of irish people with a british surname :

If only it were that simple.

A lot of Irish people have an Irish and an English version of their names.

Joyce = Seoighe for instance.

Read:

http://www.heraldry.ws/info/article08.html

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thejamescaird

there are lots of english people who will never know of their irish heritage as the irish who went there in the 18th century for example often took an english surname
in 1790 1 in 4 of londoners was irish born for example
as for the present day there are 2 million irish born in england alone with 6 million with at least 1 irish grandparent.
the amount of irish blood in england is massive.