British friends of Ireland

Pgibson

thejamescaird wrote: »

The amount of irish blood in england is massive.

Thats true.
They are "recent" arrivals however.

One of the great "mysteries" has been why the English language is almost completely devoid of Celtic words.

You get the odd word all right (Avon= river="Owen") but not many.

Good article here:

http://www.21stcenturyfogey.com/language/celticandenglish1.htm

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thejamescaird

no mystery
we spoke irish 100 years ago and now we dont have any celtic words either.
it doesnt take much to change a peoples language.
people will change to whatever they need to get ahead in life.
only a few thousand normans came to england and changed it from anglo saxon to anglo norman english which are very different within 100 years.
the original inhabitants of ireland who came 8000 years ago as hunter gatherers have left no traces of their language either which probably would have been pre indo european like basque for example. we are mostly descended from them even to this day. some invading elite brought the celtic irish language and replaced their language totally. just as the elite english did the same.

thejamescaird

thanks for that link btw interesting

getz

1 in 3 people in manchester have irish family or irish ancestors , this was from a survey from last year

MadsL

No 'mystery' that Celtic words and artifacts are missing...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1211427/posts

Irish, Scots and Welsh not Celts - scientists


September 09 2004 at 08:15PM


Dublin - Celtic nations like Ireland and Scotland have more in common with the Portuguese and Spanish than with "Celts" - the name commonly used for a group of people from ancient Alpine Europe, scientists say.

"There is a received wisdom that the origin of the people of these islands lie in invasions or migrations... but the affinities don't point eastwards to a shared origin," said Daniel Bradley, co-author of a genetic study into Celtic origins.

Early historians believed the Celts - thought to have come from an area to the east of modern France and south of Germany - invaded the Atlantic islands around 2 500 years ago.

But archaeologists have recently questioned that theory and now Bradley, from Trinity College Dublin, and his team, say DNA evidence supports their thinking.

Affinities don't point eastwards to a shared origin Geneticists used DNA samples from people living in Celtic nations and compared the genetic traits with those of people in other parts of Europe.

The study showed people in Celtic areas: Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Brittany and Cornwall, had strong genetic ties, but that this heritage had more in common with people from the Iberian peninsula.

"What we would propose is that this commonality among the Atlantic facade is much older... 6 000 years ago or earlier," Bradley told Reuters.

He said people may have moved up from areas around modern-day Portugal and Spain at the end of the Ice Age.

The similarities between Atlantic "Celts" could also suggest these areas had good levels of communications with one another, he added.

But the study could not determine whether the common genetic traits meant "Celtic" nations would look alike or have similar temperaments. Dark or red hair and freckles are considered Celtic features.

ejmaztec

MadsL wrote: »

No 'mystery' that Celtic words and artifacts are missing...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1211427/posts

Irish, Scots and Welsh not Celts - scientists


September 09 2004 at 08:15PM


Dublin - Celtic nations like Ireland and Scotland have more in common with the Portuguese and Spanish than with "Celts" - the name commonly used for a group of people from ancient Alpine Europe, scientists say.

"There is a received wisdom that the origin of the people of these islands lie in invasions or migrations... but the affinities don't point eastwards to a shared origin," said Daniel Bradley, co-author of a genetic study into Celtic origins.

Early historians believed the Celts - thought to have come from an area to the east of modern France and south of Germany - invaded the Atlantic islands around 2 500 years ago.

But archaeologists have recently questioned that theory and now Bradley, from Trinity College Dublin, and his team, say DNA evidence supports their thinking.

Affinities don't point eastwards to a shared origin Geneticists used DNA samples from people living in Celtic nations and compared the genetic traits with those of people in other parts of Europe.

The study showed people in Celtic areas: Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Brittany and Cornwall, had strong genetic ties, but that this heritage had more in common with people from the Iberian peninsula.

"What we would propose is that this commonality among the Atlantic facade is much older... 6 000 years ago or earlier," Bradley told Reuters.

He said people may have moved up from areas around modern-day Portugal and Spain at the end of the Ice Age.

The similarities between Atlantic "Celts" could also suggest these areas had good levels of communications with one another, he added.

But the study could not determine whether the common genetic traits meant "Celtic" nations would look alike or have similar temperaments. Dark or red hair and freckles are considered Celtic features.

I expect that all of the pasty-faced freckly ginger people rushed up from the Iberian Peninsular because it was too hot and Factor 60 sun-screen hadn't been invented.

mountainyman

John Edward Drayton Stephenson

thejamescaird

now theres a strange fish

Pgibson

"Genetics and archaeology prove that most modern English people descend from the Romano-British population and not from intrusive Anglosaxons, so it is clear that the 'arrival of the Anglosaxons', whatever it entailed exactly, did not represent a change in the basic population of the south and east of Britain. There was no wholesale ethnic cleansing across the entire south and east of England. Most of the present population of southern and eastern England descend from Romano-Britons who abandoned their Celtic language in favour of the Old English of the Anglo-Saxons."

That is the latest thinking.

However, if it is true then modern English should have a lot more Celtic words than it actually does.

English is still over 80% pure German with almost no Celtic words.

Puzzled.

Gilander

Pgibson wrote: »

"Genetics and archaeology prove that most modern English people descend from the Romano-British population and not from intrusive Anglosaxons, so it is clear that the 'arrival of the Anglosaxons', whatever it entailed exactly, did not represent a change in the basic population of the south and east of Britain. There was no wholesale ethnic cleansing across the entire south and east of England. Most of the present population of southern and eastern England descend from Romano-Britons who abandoned their Celtic language in favour of the Old English of the Anglo-Saxons."

That is the latest thinking.

However, if it is true then modern English should have a lot more Celtic words than it actually does.

English is still over 80% pure German with almost no Celtic words.

Puzzled.

Hmm, these people suggest a different %: http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutenglish/proportion?view=uk

Tara45

How can we get more English players to declare for the republic in soccer ?

Maybe a grant ?

Pgibson

Gilander wrote: »

Hmm, these people suggest a different %: http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutenglish/proportion?view=uk

I meant ordinary everyday words.

Not religious or technological or scientific words.

Virtually 100% of the Latin/Greek came from the Church and later from science and technology and politics and educational etc. input.

The French came from the Normans of course.

English: "The storm is strong"
German: "Der Sturm ist streng"

Hardly needs translating!

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Pgibson

Incidentally the first known "British Friend of Ireland" was the "Venerable Bede".
A pure blooded Saxon.
He always heaped high praise on "Irish Learning".
Read about him here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_ecclesiastica_gentis_Anglorum

Quote:

"The only criticism he ventures of his native Northumbria comes in writing about the death of King Ecgfrith in fighting the Picts at Nechtansmere in 685. Bede attributes this defeat to God's vengeance for the Northumbrian attack on the Irish in the previous year. For while Bede is loyal to Northumbria he shows an even greater attachment to the Irish and the Irish Celtic missionaries, whom he considers to be far more effective and dedicated than their rather complacent English counterparts."

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Snickers Man

Pgibson wrote: »

English is still over 80% pure German with almost no Celtic words.

Puzzled.

Have you ever heard of a book called "How the Irish invented slang"? It's written by an American linguist and he reckons that much modern American slang comes from Gaelic, a fact he attributes to the large number of Irish immigrants who inhabited the lowlier street occupations in the 19th century. As a result they became involved in activities like trade unionism, gambling, crime (on both sides of the law) bartending etc etc.

If you remember any of your school Irish it's a fascinating read.

I really dig how the Irish got the skinny on the American dream and climbed their way into the spic and span world of yankee affluence. It's a smashing read.

How many Irish derivations did you spot in that sentence?

There's at least four, if the book is to be believed.

Pgibson

Snickers Man wrote: »

remember any of your school Irish it's a fascinating read.

I really dig how the Irish got the skinny on the American dream and climbed their way into the spic and span world of yankee affluence. It's a smashing read.

How many Irish derivations did you spot in that sentence?

There's at least four, if the book is to be believed.

I'm guessing:
Skinny...spic..span...smashing.

"Smithereens" is my own favourite Irish word in the American language.

Incidentally.Linguists tell us that American English is now virtually a different language to English English.

That great defender of the English language Alistair Cooke remembered when the "Talkies" first came across the Atlantic.
The English people could barely understand the Yanks.

("Boogying with my baby on the sidewalk" was gobbledygook to Londoners.)

He reckoned that film and TV have made us bilingual in the American language and English language.

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getz

ENGLISH LANGUAGE---member of the germanic brance of th indo-european language family.it is traditionally described as having passed through four major stages over about 1,500 years;OLD ENGLISH or ANGLO-SAXON [c 500-1050,rooted in dialects of invading settlers [jutes saxons angles and frisians] MIDDLE ENGLISH [c 1050-1550] influenced by NORMAN FRENCH after the conquest 1066-and by ecclesiastical latin; EARLY MODERN ENGLISH [c1550-1700] includind a standardization of the diverse influences of MIDDLE ENGLISH and LATE MODERN ENGLISH[c1700 onwards] including in particular the development asd spread of current STANDARD ENGLISH. through extensive exploration, colonization,and trade, english spread worldwide from the 17th century on-wards and remains the most important international langyage of trade and tech-nology .it is used in many variations ,for example BRITISH AMERICAN CANADIAN ,WEST INDIAN INDIAN SINGAPOREAN and NIGERIAN ENGLISH, and many pidgins and creoles.--glad i have finished that,

Pgibson

Bede's Death Song written around 730 AD in his own Anglo-Saxon:

Fore ðæm nedfere nænig wiorðe
ðonc snottora ðon him ðearf siæ
to ymbhycgenne ær his hinionge
hwæt his gastæ godes oððe yfles
æfter deað dæge doemed wiorðe.



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getz

i would not say that the language that BEDE spoke ,was the norm in the uk--for instance if you check out cornwall you will find even today people talking in a CELTIC language--and lets face it BEDE was a geordy

Pgibson

getz wrote: »

i would not say that the language that BEDE spoke ,was the norm in the uk--for instance if you check out cornwall you will find even today people talking in a CELTIC language--and lets face it BEDE was a geordy

Of course!

Don't ever call the Cornish "English".

They will tell you that they are not English,they are "British".

Just like their Celtic cousins in Brittany.

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getz

now they are after me --just out of interest [i being born in cheshire] did you know if i was standing on the roman walls of chester at dusk-i would be allowed to shoot at him with a bow and arrow/?

Pgibson

Believe it or not there is a "Cornwall National Liberation Army" dedicated to obtaining Cornwall's Independence from the nasty English Oppressors:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1554444/Cornish-firebomb-threat-to-top-chefs.html

Pgibson

getz wrote: »

now they are after me --just out of interest [i being born in cheshire] did you know if i was standing on the roman walls of chester at dusk-i would be allowed to shoot at him with a bow and arrow/?

English Laws still on the Statute Book::

1. In Hereford you can shoot a Welsh person all day on a Sunday, with a Longbow, in the Cathedral Close.
2. Taxi drivers are required to ask all passengers if they have smallpox or the plague.
3. Any person found breaking a boiled egg at the sharp end will be sentenced to 24 hours in the village stocks (enacted by Edward VI).
4. Throughout the whole of England it is illegal to eat mince pies on the 25th of December.
5. You can shoot a Welsh person with a bow and arrow in Chester, inside the city walls and after midnight.

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Pgibson

90% of the Population of Ireland lived under these laws drawn up by the English against Catholics:

• He was forbidden to receive education.
• He was forbidden to enter a profession.
• He was forbidden to hold public office.
• He was forbidden to engage in trade or commerce.
• He was forbidden to live in a corporate town or within five miles thereof.
• He was forbidden to own a horse of greater value than five pounds.
• He was forbidden to own land.
• He was forbidden to lease land.
• He was forbidden to accept a mortgage on land in security for a loan.
• He was forbidden to vote.
• He was forbidden to keep any arms for his protection.
• He was forbidden to hold a life annuity.
• He was forbidden to buy land from a Protestant.
• He was forbidden to receive a gift of land from a Protestant.
• He was forbidden to inherit land from a Protestant.
• He was forbidden to inherit anything from a Protestant.
• He was forbidden to rent any land that was worth more than 30 shillings a year.
• He was forbidden to reap from his land any profit exceeding a third of the rent.
• He could not be guardian to a child.
• He could not, when dying, leave his infant children under Catholic guardianship.
• He could not attend Catholic worship.
• He was compelled by law to attend Protestant worship.
• He could not himself educate his child.
• He could not send his child to a Catholic teacher.
• He could not employ a Catholic teacher to come to his child.
• He could not send his child abroad to receive education.

Fratton Fred

Pgibson wrote: »

English Laws still on the Statute Book::

1. In Hereford you can shoot a Welsh person all day on a Sunday, with a Longbow, in the Cathedral Close.
2. Taxi drivers are required to ask all passengers if they have smallpox or the plague.
3. Any person found breaking a boiled egg at the sharp end will be sentenced to 24 hours in the village stocks (enacted by Edward VI).
4. Throughout the whole of England it is illegal to eat mince pies on the 25th of December.
5. You can shoot a Welsh person with a bow and arrow in Chester, inside the city walls and after midnight.

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There was also one about more than two welshmen in Chester market together could be considered an invasion and you were entitled to use whatever force required to repel the invasion.

It was also a legal requirement for all men between 13 and 40 years of age to practice the longbow everyday.

However, there was a tidy up on English law a few years ago and all these were scrapped.

ejmaztec

Pgibson wrote: »

90% of the Population of Ireland lived under these laws drawn up by the English against Catholics:

• He was forbidden to receive education.
• He was forbidden to enter a profession.
• He was forbidden to hold public office.
• He was forbidden to engage in trade or commerce.
• He was forbidden to live in a corporate town or within five miles thereof.
• He was forbidden to own a horse of greater value than five pounds.
• He was forbidden to own land.
• He was forbidden to lease land.
• He was forbidden to accept a mortgage on land in security for a loan.
• He was forbidden to vote.
• He was forbidden to keep any arms for his protection.
• He was forbidden to hold a life annuity.
• He was forbidden to buy land from a Protestant.
• He was forbidden to receive a gift of land from a Protestant.
• He was forbidden to inherit land from a Protestant.
• He was forbidden to inherit anything from a Protestant.
• He was forbidden to rent any land that was worth more than 30 shillings a year.
• He was forbidden to reap from his land any profit exceeding a third of the rent.
• He could not be guardian to a child.
• He could not, when dying, leave his infant children under Catholic guardianship.
• He could not attend Catholic worship.
• He was compelled by law to attend Protestant worship.
• He could not himself educate his child.
• He could not send his child to a Catholic teacher.
• He could not employ a Catholic teacher to come to his child.
• He could not send his child abroad to receive education.

So, apart from that lot, Catholics were quite well thought of. :eek:

The last four on the list seem to contradict the first one on the list, unless the Catholic teacher came from abroad, which in itself would mean that any illicit pupils would probably all speak French, Spanish or Italian.

I would further surmise that this is the reason for the Irish having the label "thick" attached, given that there was no education available.

thejamescaird

Gilander wrote: »

Hmm, these people suggest a different %: http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutenglish/proportion?view=uk

great link thanks

Snickers Man

Pgibson wrote: »

I'm guessing:
Skinny...spic..span...smashing.

Dig, meaning to empathise with, to like, or to understand, comes from the Irish tuig meaning to understand.

Skinny comes from an Irish word too but I can't remember what it is.

Spic and span, meaning very tidy or new looking comes from the Irish spiaca 's ban meaning shiny and white. My concise OED says that the span part of it comes from an old Norse word meaning new but neglects to mention the spick part. I reckon the Irish explanation is closer to the mark.

Smashing meaning very good comes from the simple is maith sin meaning that's good.

Pgibson wrote: »

"Smithereens" is my own favourite Irish word in the American language.

The book I mentioned gave possible Irish etymologies for a load of words that I wouldn't have thought of as Irish at all. Like razzamatazz and humdinger. I think a few of those stretched things a bit but I am convinced of the likelihood of the ones I mentioned being of Irish origin.

Also, the word phoney meaning fake or counterfeit is reckoned to come from fainne meaning a ring, and it's etymology refers to the fact that cheap rings were often passed off as being gold when in fact they were made of some cheap metal instead. Phoneys, in other words.

getz

untill a few years ago the isle of man was still at war with russia----my irish dad always used to say ;he was going to see a man about a dog; when i asked him where he was going

ejmaztec

Snickers Man wrote: »

Dig, meaning to empathise with, to like, or to understand, comes from the Irish tuig meaning to understand.

Skinny comes from an Irish word too but I can't remember what it is.

Spic and span, meaning very tidy or new looking comes from the Irish spiaca 's ban meaning shiny and white. My concise OED says that the span part of it comes from an old Norse word meaning new but neglects to mention the spick part. I reckon the Irish explanation is closer to the mark.

Smashing meaning very good comes from the simple is maith sin meaning that's good.



The book I mentioned gave possible Irish etymologies for a load of words that I wouldn't have thought of as Irish at all. Like razzamatazz and humdinger. I think a few of those stretched things a bit but I am convinced of the likelihood of the ones I mentioned being of Irish origin.

Also, the word phoney meaning fake or counterfeit is reckoned to come from fainne meaning a ring, and it's etymology refers to the fact that cheap rings were often passed off as being gold when in fact they were made of some cheap metal instead. Phoneys, in other words.

Not to mention "Shut your gob!"

Pgibson

ejmaztec wrote: »

I would further surmise that this is the reason for the Irish having the label "thick" attached, given that there was no education available.

Professor Lecky a British Protestant and ardent British sympathizer, said in his "History of Ireland in the 18th Century" that the object of the Penal Laws was threefold:
"To deprive Catholics of all civil life; to reduce them to a condition of extreme, brutal ignorance; and, to disassociate them from the soil.:
Lecky said, "He might with absolute justice, substitute Irish for Catholic, "and added a fourth objective: "To expatriate the race." Most scholars agree that the Penal Laws helped set the stage for the injustices that occurred during The Great Famine and fueled the fires of racism that were directed against the Irish by the British.

How the average English person saw the Irish:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/Punch_Anti-Irish_propaganda_%281882%29_Irish_Frankenstein.jpg


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