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25,000 people protesting outside the Dail today...

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Comments

  • #62
    luckat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,366 ✭✭✭luckat


    I don't know, Xavi - it's cultural. Working-class people are cautious of loans. It's the middle classes who'll go into debt to get an education.

    I absolutely agree about the points system. Most of the educational system in Ireland isn't good for training creative, intelligent, sparky, experimental people.

    It's training for slaves, yassuh training, training that teaches people to learn the answers and spout 'em out.

    The fact that one or two superb schools - like that one in Cork, what's it called? - produce creative scientists and mathematicians shows that it can be done. What a pity it's not rewarded - teachers are rewarded for turning out points-grinders instead. Stultifying.


  • #63
    mountainyman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,268 ✭✭✭mountainyman


    Xavi6 wrote: »
    'Oh noes we have to pay da college fees!!!11!!1'.

    Due to our poxy points system I had no real option but to go to private college in order to get my career of choice. That's 4,500 per year before you even start. I worked two jobs during my first two years to help my pay for it.
    There's good object lesson in why you should work hard in school.
    Xavi6 wrote: »
    My parents chipped in as well.
    I taught in a private collge and I'd say that 99% of the kids had their parents 'chipping in'. If you did pay for your own college you were part of a tiny minority.


  • #64
    Xavi6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,159 ✭✭✭✭Xavi6


    mountainyman wrote: »
    There's good object lesson in why you should work hard in school.

    Wow what a narrow minded comment :rolleyes:

    495 points were required for journalism when I did my Leaving. I wasn't a maths/science type person yet was an 'A' student at English. No way was pass Maths and a D in Biology going to get me to journalism is DCU. I lost out on my course through the points system and not my ability to do that particular course.

    Believe it or not, not everyone is an academic all rounder.
    I taught in a private collge

    I hope to God you don't still teach in a private college given your above attitude towards the people you would be lecturing.
    I'd say that 99% of the kids had their parents 'chipping in'. If you did pay for your own college you were part of a tiny minority.

    Of course there were a lot of silver spoons, just like there are in UCD etc.


  • #65
    Morgase
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 737 ✭✭✭Morgase


    luckat wrote: »
    No, I'm saying "from each according to his capacity" - it's a waste for the country when someone who could be a brilliant engineer is instead digging the streets.

    Never a truer word spoken. If not for free fees back in the late 90's, I would not have been the first in the family to go to university. I would not now be working in a professional capacity and earning such a comfortable amount of money that the government gets plenty of tax out of me (and I'm happy with that). I've probably paid for my university education many times over by now!

    If not for free fees, I'd probably still be working in an unskilled job in the local town. People like me didn't even consider getting loans to cover university costs.


  • #66
    smk135
    Closed Accounts Posts: 235 ✭✭smk135


    Xavi6 wrote: »

    Far too many people saunter into college, do next to nothing and come out of it with a piece of paper. Is that helping the prosperity of the country?



    As I said, bring in the loans system where by you pay it off when you're working. Seperate the serious students from the jokers.

    Do you not think that bringing fees in is going to reinforce that? It's not the rich kids who are not going to be able to go to college - they will still be able to just "saunter" in there.

    What class of people do you think go to college for "the craic"? it certainly not the working class - why would anyone work two jobs, study and attend class "for the craic"? It's a LOT easier to do barwork and have great craic with money in your pocket, leisure time and live as you like!

    And your views on student loans - do you not see the problem with that? since when did it become natural to be in debt? to "borrow" money?

    We shouldn't have to - we should spend what we have not what the bank has.


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  • #67
    smk135
    Closed Accounts Posts: 235 ✭✭smk135


    Xavi6 wrote: »

    495 points were required for journalism when I did my Leaving. I wasn't a maths/science type person yet was an 'A' student at English. No way was pass Maths and a D in Biology going to get me to journalism is DCU. I lost out on my course through the points system and not my ability to do that particular course.

    Believe it or not, not everyone is an academic all rounder.


    QUOTE]

    you just sound like you have a massive chip on your shoulder because you had to work harder than you "should have" whereas you "should have" been allowed in because you're clever, and smart and deserve to go to whatever Uni you want.


  • #68
    Xavi6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,159 ✭✭✭✭Xavi6


    smk135 wrote: »
    you just sound like you have a massive chip on your shoulder because you had to work harder than you "should have" whereas you "should have" been allowed in because you're clever, and smart and deserve to go to whatever Uni you want.

    That's not what I said.

    I believe people should be given the opportunity to do the course they are best suited to. The points system doesn't allow that. The high courses are taken by all rounders who do well in all subjects.

    For example, someone who is crap at French/German/Irish is going to struggle to get medicine even with an A in Biology.


  • #69
    smk135
    Closed Accounts Posts: 235 ✭✭smk135


    Xavi6 wrote: »
    That's not what I said.

    I believe people should be given the opportunity to do the course they are best suited to. The points system doesn't allow that. The high courses are taken by all rounders who do well in all subjects.

    For example, someone who is crap at French/German/Irish is going to struggle to get medicine even with an A in Biology.

    And I completely agree with you on this - in fact the exact same thing nearly happened to me but I just got extremely lucky and found a brand new course that happened to be everything I wanted and more. It's ridiculous that one can't attend the course they want, or may even have the vocation for because of our points system - but then every country has a f*cked up system somewhere along the line.

    But on the other hand, I'm going to start this course next year, and already have to work the whole year to get money together - now to think of having to pay an extra say 24k over the 4 years just to start off with makes it a hell of a lot harder.

    I'm not old enough to be a mature student, and I'm completely alone in funding my studies. Yet I haven't been studying for 3 years because I wanted to make sure I chose the right course to avoid feckin around and/or dropping out.
    Because the authorities are as thick as sh1t, they will not give me a grant at all because my mother now lives abroad although she worked over 30 years paying a LOT of tax in Ireland and never claimed a penny off the gvt for her kids because (at the time) she could afford not to. So she didn't want to take money that may have been used elsewhere.

    Anyway, my point is, I genuinely think there is a huge amount of students who are going to suffer and I genuinely do think that people will have to either not attend or borrow - and I think we can look at the state of the financial world now and safely say that it's not the most sustainable solution to bring laods + debt into student life.


  • #70
    mountainyman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,268 ✭✭✭mountainyman


    Apologies Xavi,

    I appreciate that Journalism is a course with high points. I also appreciate that there are not many Journalism courses in Ireland. You personally may be very well suited to journalism, I hope it works out for you and I congratulate you on the character you have shown in working your way through college.

    However I went to TCD as an undergrad a well known snobby college and I feel that the private college where I taught is far morse cliquish and snobby (though TCD is not that cliquish). I really did feel that a lot of the kids were thick. Journalism like many jobs should not require a degree. In the '80s you would get a job as a 'scout' then work your way up.

    Credentialism creates a barrier to entry.
    Perhaps the answer is fewer 3rd level courses overall, more on the job training and the deferral of credentialisation until the mid twenties when people who lack your drive and passion will have a better handle on what to do with their lives.

    I don't feel that bringing back fees is anything other than a step back.

    MM


  • #71
    Cactus Col
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭Cactus Col


    Walked down molesworth street after the protest. Was disgusted to see how much litter was left around by the student protesters.

    I was on the street at about 2ish that day, after the elderly protested, and the street was grand, after the student protest, the place was littered with flyers, cans and bottles, and discarded signs.

    It was a disgraceful sight, and the organisers of the march should have made sure they tidied up after themselves, instead of leaving it to the tax payer to clean up their mess.


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  • #72
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Pighead wrote: »
    Now Pigheads all for the right to protest but not when people are trying to geta bit of shuteye. Was awoken with a start earlier on by a bunch of students chanting rubbish slogans at the top of their whiney voices. These fcukers certainly weren't students of literature judging by their gawd awful chanting

    "No way, we won't pay" How long did it take them to come up with that? Pathetic. It's like something out of an Ann and Barry book. They should have come up with something with a bit more verve and bite like " We're not going to pay, we're not, no way"

    Perhaps they should have sung it in the third person?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #73
    TheEnforcer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 28 ✭TheEnforcer


    Mass public demonstrations will be a common occurance in the next few years.

    Beware http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S1nHvvkzvA

    Do not riot, this is what they want, another excuse to further enforce a police state to "protect" the people.


  • #74
    robtri
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,425 ✭✭✭robtri


    250,000 students yet only 10,000 turned up to protest??? whats that all about??? do the other 240,000 not give a crap???
    By the way the thread title says 25,000 but the news report says 10,000 students and 1,000 oaps
    it amazes me the arrogence of some people, the student fees have only increased by €600 they where at €900 and now going up to €1500...
    don't get me wrong €600 is a lot of cash but in reality it is just a student saving an extra €11.53 a week for the year...
    thats what 2 drinks a week in the pub...

    I have already read a comment in this thread, by a student who said they won't be able to afford booze if they have to pay... I have also read in other threads students saying they won't be able to afford takeaways or new clothes ..... seriously cop the hell on....

    how much money was spent on that protest.... and the state the left the place in.... a lot of them got buses, a lot got food from fast food places, signs made up, beer and a lot was drunk, how much did it cost the taxpayer to clean up afterwards....
    if you can take a day off to protest you can take a day off to work and earn money towards your fees.
    STUDENTS AND FF are all the same, just out after their own pockets...


  • #75
    Tony Broke
    Closed Accounts Posts: 495 ✭✭Tony Broke


    Xavi6 wrote: »
    That's not what I said.

    I believe people should be given the opportunity to do the course they are best suited to. The points system doesn't allow that. The high courses are taken by all rounders who do well in all subjects.

    For example, someone who is crap at French/German/Irish is going to struggle to get medicine even with an A in Biology.

    Not everyone can be a doctor.

    If you cant get an A in a subject as easy as Irish, you dont have the capacity to be a doctor.Thats the way the system works and I agree with it.

    Its much much fairer, than in the US where anyone with a fat wallet can become one.If you can get 6 A's out of 7 subjects, then you have shown you are capable of the work ahead.If not then you didnt try hard enough or have the intellect.

    Its that simple.

    The students protesting about the €500 increase are embarrasing, its nothing.If it was the renintroduction of €4500 fees then fair enough.

    Who would want to be enslaved by €22500 worth of debt besides Xavi.

    Alot of the kids graduating College will be on just over industrial wages, which is not alot.


  • #76
    Tony Broke
    Closed Accounts Posts: 495 ✭✭Tony Broke


    robtri wrote: »
    STUDENTS AND FF are all the same, just out after their own pockets...

    Who isnt?


  • #77
    smk135
    Closed Accounts Posts: 235 ✭✭smk135


    robtri wrote: »

    I have already read a comment in this thread, by a student who said they won't be able to afford booze if they have to pay... I have also read in other threads students saying they won't be able to afford takeaways or new clothes ..... seriously cop the hell on.... ...

    That i agree 100% with - it's **** not having a little tinuy bit of luxury even in your life like being able to buy a coffee but feck it that's waht it is to be a student (not gettnig wasted every night of the week).
    robtri wrote: »
    if you can take a day off to protest you can take a day off to work and earn money towards your fees.
    STUDENTS AND FF are all the same, just out after their own pockets...

    this however I think is quite silly - are we supposed to carry on with out lives and just tut nd grumble? because then you'd say what you did at the beginning of your post, contradicting yourself, saying that "only" 10.000 turned up... How else do the People let it be known that they are unhappy about tsomething?


  • #78
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,920 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Tony Broke wrote: »
    Not everyone can be a doctor.

    If you cant get an A in a subject as easy as Irish, you dont have the capacity to be a doctor.Thats the way the system works and I agree with it.

    Its much much fairer, than in the US where anyone with a fat wallet can become one.If you can get 6 A's out of 7 subjects, then you have shown you are capable of the work ahead.If not then you didnt try hard enough or have the intellect.

    Its that simple.

    The students protesting about the €500 increase are embarrasing, its nothing.If it was the renintroduction of €4500 fees then fair enough.

    Who would want to be enslaved by €22500 worth of debt besides Xavi.

    Alot of the kids graduating College will be on just over industrial wages, which is not alot.

    Most of the students were protesting over the possible re-introduction of the full college fees. The Galway protest was held before the Budget was announced, so that's what we were out against.


  • #79
    Attol
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,385 ✭✭✭Attol


    robtri wrote: »
    .

    I have already read a comment in this thread, by a student who said they won't be able to afford booze if they have to pay... I have also read in other threads students saying they won't be able to afford takeaways or new clothes ..... seriously cop the hell on....

    You are completely twisting what I said in the other thread. I said I can barely afford the basics, let alone new clothes, booze or takeaways in response to the silly accusations made by everyone that students have too much money.


  • #80
    rainbow kirby
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,928 ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    robtri wrote: »
    250,000 students yet only 10,000 turned up to protest??? whats that all about??? do the other 240,000 not give a crap???
    I wasn't there yesterday, for the simple reason that I had an attendance-taken lecture at 2pm that I really couldn't miss. I am in final year - the movement towards the reintroduction of fees still terrifies me though as I have a younger sibling in Transition Year in school.
    it amazes me the arrogence of some people, the student fees have only increased by €600 they where at €900 and now going up to €1500...
    don't get me wrong €600 is a lot of cash but in reality it is just a student saving an extra €11.53 a week for the year...
    thats what 2 drinks a week in the pub...
    A lot of students are having trouble finding part-time jobs at the moment. Coming up with €1,500 as a lump sum in September is difficult for a student if they haven't been working over the summer, if they don't have savings, if they aren't getting a grant. The amount of the increase IS a big deal.
    STUDENTS AND FF are all the same, just out after their own pockets...
    Yes, FF are only after their own pockets. Not all students are. If the registration fee had been €1,500 this year I would have really struggled to return to college this year. I'm not working part-time as my workload in 4th CS is too heavy to really give me time to work, so I'm living off savings from a year out last year and I still only have about €20-30 a week for myself. I don't drink at all, because I simply can't justify the expense.


  • #81
    Caoimhín
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,789 ✭✭✭Caoimhín


    gurramok wrote: »
    Rich people would be very stupid to use a medical card.

    Can you picture them queuing in A&E for several hours and then thrown on a trolley under the state system?

    It's just silly.

    For example, Bertie fractured his leg and ended up going to the Mater private, not the public one. He has money like any wealthy person and they will pay top dollar for the quick treatment as time matters when your sick.

    Same for the drugs, they will pay to get them. Same for the docs, they will pay for a call-out or even going to the private clinics to be seen pronto.

    If anyone is in an accident regardless of wealth or health insurance, they are brought to a public A&E. I fork out €150 a month for VHI and i still spent 11 hours on a trolley in a public A&E with a cracked spine (im not complaining, i dont expect preferential treatment). After initial assessment i was transferred to a private hospital.

    There is NO accident and emergency in the Mater Private hospital. I suspect Bertie Ahern was brought there because of his status, i cant see Bertie being left on a trolley for 11 hours.

    There is indeed private A&E centres around the country however these are limited to treating minor injuries.

    Anyway "rich people" wouldn't be given a medical card.


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  • #82
    Caoimhín
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,789 ✭✭✭Caoimhín


    Darragh29 wrote: »
    They’re with O’Leary in the grave.

    Michael O'Leary?


  • #83
    Caoimhín
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,789 ✭✭✭Caoimhín


    Pugwash wrote: »
    Regarding the panto indignation which Caoimhín likens the reaction of OAPs to the medical card change, I think he misses the point. The fact is that a pillar of ones retirement security was threatened by the initial cut in the budget. Once confidence was shaken so, it is extremely hard to subdue the kind of malcontent that is thrown up. They are absolutely right to follow through on their protest.

    Well first of all, if you are going to belittle my opinion then at least use the quote facility to point out exactly what issue you have with my "panto indignation".

    I was simply, and quite clearly pointing out that the protesters were mistaken in their belief that their medical cards were going to be taken off them.
    The pillar of all of our retirements was NOT threatened by the initial budget cut,it was simply going to means test the provision of the medical card to prevent very wealthy people from getting a free ride. I would rather the money wasted by providing medical cards to wealthy people was spent on providing better medical care to the truly needy.

    Just because some peoples confidence was shaken by something they misunderstood about the budget or heard on Joe Duffy does not make them "absolutely right" to take to the streets to protest about something that had been resolved and clarified by then.

    In my opinion, the "Panto indignation" was on display outside Leinster house yesterday.


  • #84
    jill_valentine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    I got talking to some of the OAP protesters yesterday, and they were very well informed, and very clear on what their dispute was. They were by no means the Joe Duffy crowd, who I had the extreme displeasure of encountering in my old job on a regular basis.

    I have to say actually, their protest kicked our protest's ass. I was rather impressed. Rage Against the Machine would have been proud...

    I am, at this stage, probably going to need a student loan, like I say. The last time I was out was for my own birthday in August, and the last item of clothing I bought was in Spring, so it's safe to say I'm not having the fabulous Duran Duran lifestyle that you might expect. I have never once complained of having no parking space for my yacht.

    Now, I work, I worked for a few years before I went college, and I qualify for the grant. I still need to go into debt to make it. Fees would throw another 30k or so onto that, which is a big hole to jump into without any guarantee of being able to climb back out.

    I don't think money should be the deciding factor on whether somebody goes into Third Level or not. The CAO system is moronic, but at least pays lip service to the notion of merit or potential. I am capable of my course, I love the subject, but if I wasn't in college already and found myself facing that prospect from the get-go, I can easily imagine making the decision differently.

    For the record, btw, several colleges and courses have grade-dependent assignments and mid-terms this week, which was a prohibitive factor for many yesterday. My college's students negotiated with their lecturers to have allowances made for the protest, and not coincidentally, produced the most bodies.

    It's frustrating to see people manage to somehow simultaneously suggest that a) So many students only turned up because they don't care enough about their coursework! and then at the same time, b) So few students turned up because they don't care about the protest!


  • #85
    Caoimhín
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,789 ✭✭✭Caoimhín


    jill_valentine wrote: »


    I am, at this stage, probably going to need a student loan,

    Fees would throw another 30k or so onto that, which is a big hole to jump into without any guarantee of being able to climb back out.

    I don't think money should be the deciding factor on whether somebody goes into Third Level or not.

    It's frustrating to see people manage to somehow simultaneously suggest that a) So many students only turned up because they don't care enough about their coursework! and then at the same time, b) So few students turned up because they don't care about the protest!

    I agree with all you have said.

    Generally speaking though, as a small country, we collectively have to accept that as a society, we simply can not afford to pay for third level education, give everyone free, (first class) health care, a very generous welfare system and an impressive transport system. ALL paid for from the low taxation of a relatively small work force of 2.2 million http://www.cso.ie/statistics/empandunempilo.htm

    Without even getting started on the construction bubble, the government has been spending beyond its means, simply to buy votes.

    As a certain CJH would say "as a society we are living beyond our means"


  • #86
    somethingwitty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 173 ✭✭somethingwitty


    She Devil wrote: »
    Oh, it was always the way, the thick fcuker gets to be a priest, and the smart one gets to go to college! So what is it to be Dougal, what category do you fall into?

    Hahaha well he's the boy so I think he will be the priest!:pac:

    Nah seriously I think we both deserve a place in college. It would be such a shame as we already have our places deferred. To have to give them up just because we cant afford to go to college would be tough...
    Does anyone know if all grants dont take siblings starting together into account...?


  • #87
    Xavi6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,159 ✭✭✭✭Xavi6


    Some top drawer photos over in Photography


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