That rich farmer down the road.........

towel401 · 02-10-2008 10:45PM

stevoman wrote: »

I dont know why people dont like the farmers in this country. They are the true maintinee's of the countryside and if it wasnt for them maintaining that god only know what the place would look like.

Im from a town myself, but rest assued its the likes of lads from towns that are the first ones to thorw their rubbish out their car window and onto the side of the road. If it wasnt for farmers the Irsh countryside wouldnt be as beautiful as it is.

its just because this place is full of clueless urbanites who live in one-bedroom apartments in StillorgLan and other boring satellite towns.

these are the same people who start screaming as soon as the power goes out for a couple of seconds and call an electrician if a lightbulb needs changing or if any of their other modern conveniences stop working and gets in the way of their otherwise boring life they have to call someone and pay them money to fix it.

of course these guys hate farmers. i'd hate them too if i had to eke out a miserable existence in the concrete jungle

Nermal · 02-10-2008 10:57PM

Schism wrote: »

In fact were it not for EU subsidies there wouldn't be any small farmers left in the country.

So? What's the problem with that? They'd just get the dole anyway, if they're not already fiddling it.

The cost of providing transport, power, water and sewage to one-off houses in Ballynowhere should be deducted from these payments before the farmers get their hands on them.

Or alternatively, any farmer heard moaning should have his payment confiscated. They'd be worth paying if it led to silence.

the_syco · 02-10-2008 11:09PM

Boeyenk wrote: »

The real tax money in this country goes to the people that are "not able to work" (not reffering to the people that have been made redundant)

You talking about the disabled, or the Dubs on the Dole? The DotD should be forced into labour camps from 7am to 10am Monday to Friday.

towel401 · 02-10-2008 11:13PM

Nermal wrote: »

So? What's the problem with that? They'd just get the dole anyway, if they're not already fiddling it.

The cost of providing transport, power, water and sewage to one-off houses in Ballynowhere should be deducted from these payments before the farmers get their hands on them.

Or alternatively, any farmer heard moaning should have his payment confiscated. They'd be worth paying if it led to silence.

they already pay for all that stuff. except most of them don't have sewage. just a septic tank - a big hole in the ground that contains the last 20 years of your ****. you probably never seen one of those. that concept alone would scare most townies into staying inside, far away from those evil barbaric culchies

brianthebard · 02-10-2008 11:15PM

Nermal wrote: »

So? What's the problem with that? They'd just get the dole anyway, if they're not already fiddling it.

The cost of providing transport, power, water and sewage to one-off houses in Ballynowhere should be deducted from these payments before the farmers get their hands on them.

Or alternatively, any farmer heard moaning should have his payment confiscated. They'd be worth paying if it led to silence.

Good luck paying 30 quid for a pound of round.

humbert · 02-10-2008 11:15PM

Prob not a good idea, what is it meant to achive. The abusers will desist from the shame, I don't think so! Probably some farmers abusing it prob some farmers need it to maintain a way of life.

More to the point, they should publish a list of those "not fit to work" for over a year say. I'd say there's much much greater abuses there.

brianthebard · 02-10-2008 11:22PM

Its based on how many acres/hectares you own isn't it? How the hell are farmers supposed to be abusing that? There's a record of all the land in Ireland and who owns it, how the hell do you think that can be abused??

Blush_01 · 03-10-2008 12:04AM

Nermal wrote: »

The cost of providing transport, power, water and sewage to one-off houses in Ballynowhere should be deducted from these payments before the farmers get their hands on them.

Or alternatively, any farmer heard moaning should have his payment confiscated. They'd be worth paying if it led to silence.

You do realise that rural ESB prices, for example, are a minimum of 25% higher for the same energy consumption as urban prices? Does that not constitute paying for the provision of the service?

As for water charges, sewerage charges etc. who exactly do you think pays for them? Are you sticking your paw in your pocket every time I flush the toilet at my parents house? Because if you are I'd love to know what they're getting a water bill for each year. We have our own septic tank, which we're responsible for maintaining. What happens when your sewerage system backs up? Do you whinge down the phone at someone to fix it, or do you actually do something about it?

As for confiscating single farm payments etc. there have been issues in the past with the payments being up to 6 months late. There are numerous families who cannot survive without those payments - payments which make the milk, butter, cheese, bread, vegetables, meat and grains etc. you eat affordable. How would you feel if the employer forcing you to fill in forms before you can scratch your nose paid you 6 months late? There are huge issues with some farmers who have increasing levels of paperwork and very poor literacy levels because they left school at such a young age and there are few if any supports in place for them.

I've lived both a rural life and an urban one, and I know which one is cushier when it comes to services, facilities and opportunities. In an urban area, I can afford to be a pedestrian because there is a public transport service in place to take me from A to B. In a rural setting, I could sit and swivel for eternity if I wanted to and I'd never see a bus. Why is the farming community funding public transport for people who despise the 70+ hour weeks they have to put in before they come close to breaking even?

It works both ways. Being part of a democratic community means you pay for the "crap" you don't want so you can get the stuff you do want or need.

Alessandra · 03-10-2008 12:59AM

Nermal wrote: »

So? What's the problem with that? They'd just get the dole anyway, if they're not already fiddling it.

QUOTE]

You mightn't be so quick to ask that if you had any understanding of how much of the food you eat gets to your table.

*Some* people enjoy locally produced food and not food with 10,000 air miles behind it before it gets to the table.

For many, farming isn't a job so much as a way of life. Hard for many to imagine safe in the comfort of their 3 bed semi. Before any of the "wealthy farmers" get their hands on those lucrative payment schemes(such as REPS) there's plenty of paperwork and farm inspections to be carried out. This often requires the farmer to employ an accoutant to go over the numbers. Then he must make sure the land is compliant with all environmental laws and EU regulations. Not very taxing you'd imagine? General maintenance of the land etc is costly. Many farmers today work full-time and part-time to supplement their income and are often lucky to break even after the year.

I wonder with the current downturn in the economy why people aren't so quick to take up farming since the EU are willing to give them so much money for nothing?

Macha · 03-10-2008 01:12AM

Maybe if we actually paid a decent price for our food, the farmers wouldn't need subsidies? Is that such a crazy idea??

brianthebard · 03-10-2008 01:15AM

Whoa whoa tac, a fair price for a quality product? Don't be absurd!!!!

Macha · 03-10-2008 01:23AM

Sorry, silly me. I mean it's totally ridiculous to think that people might cut down on ryanair flights or flat screen TVs or clothes or any other amount of needless sh!te rather than spend some money on decent food.

But no, the first whiff of a recession and everyone runs screaming to Lidl for their reconstituted orange juice and 50% meat burgers...(bleurgh..)

brianthebard · 03-10-2008 01:52AM

taconnol wrote: »

Sorry, silly me. I mean it's totally ridiculous to think that people might cut down on ryanair flights or flat screen TVs or clothes or any other amount of needless sh!te rather than spend some money on decent food.

But no, the first whiff of a recession and everyone runs screaming to Lidl for their reconstituted orange juice and 50% meat burgers...(bleurgh..)

Marry me? What are you doing tuesday???

Macha · 03-10-2008 02:07AM

No ye hairy boho culchie, I don't want to live in boggy Galway!

(Plus I'm an urban socialist hypocrite - I don't actually practice what I preach! :pac:)

But thanks for the proposal

brianthebard · 03-10-2008 02:30AM

Roffles so many contradictions! But we could have densely thighed rural urban socialist children! Oh well it wasn't meant to be...

Macha · 03-10-2008 02:31AM

Jebus...you must be drunk...

brianthebard · 03-10-2008 02:40AM

taconnol wrote: »

Jebus...you must be drunk...

Just because I've had a bottle of wine and 4 beers doesn't mean we couldn't have genetically well adjusted sprogs...or does it?

Macha · 03-10-2008 02:48AM

LOL I knew it! Feeling lonely down on the ranch?

brianthebard · 03-10-2008 02:59AM

You have no idea.

but I have lots of land to inherit you'd be swimming in eu money apparently!!!! (or not if you knew how to use the website properly, which you prolly do)

gabigeist · 03-10-2008 10:20AM

humbert wrote: »

More to the point, they should publish a list of those "not fit to work" for over a year say. I'd say there's much much greater abuses there.

+1

Public information on income is a good thing for farmers. If anything, they will come out of this looking well as most of the payments are tiny and would be pitied more than begrudged.

irish_bob · 03-10-2008 10:31AM

i grew up on a farm and let me tell you , the payments ( cheque in the post ) farmers recieve is only compensation for the fact that the cost of producing beef for example is more than what the farmer gets for the animal at the factory , farmers would much perfer they were recieving a better price for thier produce than to be recieving the cheque in the post , the cheque in the post requires a huge amount of form filling and beaurecratical bull**** in general

now on to my main point , i firmly believe that the reason this so called cheque in the post continues is because were it to end in the morning , with it would go an army of civil servants at the department of agriculture who earn a living administering the so called cheque in the post to farmers , while all the general public sees is farmers apparently getting money for nothing , they fail to realise that thier is an entire civil service industry built around theese payments , were they to end in the morning , it is the public service unions who would be on the streets , not the IFA

TheBigLebowski · 03-10-2008 10:32AM

stevoman wrote: »

I dont know why people dont like the farmers in this country. They are the true maintinee's of the countryside and if it wasnt for them maintaining that god only know what the place would look like.

Im from a town myself, but rest assued its the likes of lads from towns that are the first ones to thorw their rubbish out their car window and onto the side of the road. If it wasnt for farmers the Irsh countryside wouldnt be as beautiful as it is.

This post is absolute bollox. I can assure you the Irish countryside was a lot more beautiful before any of us arrived especially the farmers who cut down all the woodlands for grazing and crops. I'm not saying it wasn't ncessary to do this for food but to say the countryside is more beautiful because of farmers is absolute nonsense. I'd gladly see the majority of it return to forestry.

TheBigLebowski · 03-10-2008 10:33AM

irish_bob wrote: »

i grew up on a farm and let me tell you , the payments ( cheque in the post ) farmers recieve is only compensation for the fact that the cost of producing beef for example is more than what the farmer gets for the animal at the factory ,

Don't produce phucking beef then...

andrewdeerpark · 03-10-2008 10:34AM

From my local knowledge I cannot see any payments against the large farmers, cattle dealers & tillage farmers on the system.

Data looks a con job to me with only small payments on it.

I know farmers can have different herd numbers, paid through wife's maiden name etc tried all that and still no known large payment appeared.

Look like the IFA got a deal for their top farmers here.... keeping them off the list.

kevmy · 03-10-2008 11:18AM

andrewdeerpark wrote: »

From my local knowledge I cannot see any payments against the large farmers, cattle dealers & tillage farmers on the system.

Data looks a con job to me with only small payments on it.

I know farmers can have different herd numbers, paid through wife's maiden name etc tried all that and still no known large payment appeared.

Look like the IFA got a deal for their top farmers here.... keeping them off the list.

Or maybe, just maybe farmers don't get as much as people think they do.

Also so far this only covers certain payments (as of yet it doesn't cover the single farm payment - which is the main one). So far it has REPS - which most farmers are now members off - and other schemes.

Single farm payment not on it until April next year.

Personally I don't think it's right to single out farmers. Why don't we publish social welfare amounts or public service salaries. If everyone was on these fair enough but picking out farmers is again doing the dog on them while letting everyone else off the hook.

I'm telling you that from the moment you buy in cattle to the moment you sell them 2 and a half years later there might be 2 grand in the difference. Now take into account the feed you buy, the silage you cut (the contractors have to be paid), the hours you put in, the machinery you upkeep etc there is feck all left as profit for yourself.
Of course if you have loads of cattle you can make the savings up by buying in bulk and you can make money but the majority of Irish farmers are small time operators. They do it cos they want to, they enjoy doing it and have grown up doing it. Most would love to do it full time but can't afford to.

How many townies get up at half 2 in the morning for 6 weeks in the year during lambing season just to do there job? To get maybe if there lucky €100 per lamb (again excluding feed, labour, haulage costs)?

To make a little extra money farmers join REPS schemes which involve stuff like only putting fertiliser on 60% of a field or making sure every gate on your land is painted or making major changes to existing infrastructure to bring it up to code. Of course this stuff is good for the environment and worthwhile overall but it's not a cheque for nothing, hard work and money goes into it and will usually result in a lower yield on the farm.

And after all this what happens to the farmer; he gets screwed. Every piece of meat you buy in the shops the farmer gets approx 10% - thats if it's Irish. Who gets the rest of it the hauler, the meat factories, the government and the butcher. Imagine if you where a company which did 80% of the work and got 10% of the profits - you'd be pissed off - in fact you'd probably give up and go out of business.

But no because people want fresh produce, because the food industry is a massive part of the Irish economy (which if we had to import all the stuff would fcuk the country) the farmer is told to keep tipping along, fill out the 113 forms, tag all the animals and keep track of them, do the tough job and maybe if the idiot in the civil service doesn't fcuk up you might get a cheque in the post.

Schism · 03-10-2008 11:31AM

Nermal wrote: »

So? What's the problem with that? They'd just get the dole anyway, if they're not already fiddling it.

The cost of providing transport, power, water and sewage to one-off houses in Ballynowhere should be deducted from these payments before the farmers get their hands on them.

Or alternatively, any farmer heard moaning should have his payment confiscated. They'd be worth paying if it led to silence.

Cost of power : When getting E.S.B. to a new house you have to pay for any additional poles, iirc.

Cost of water : Most rural houses have their own wells.

Cost of sewage : Most rural houses have their own septic tank and soak pit

Cost of transport : Cars? I'm lost on this one.

So who pays for these facilities again?

Schism · 03-10-2008 11:43AM

TheBigLebowski wrote: »

Don't produce phucking beef then...

It's not that simple.

If you see a dentist who's not earning enough money would you tell him to stop phucking practicing dentistry?

I'm not saying farmers are stuck to one thing or another but if you've been rearing animals for beef all you're life it's going to require some practice and training before you can confidently switch to say, dairy. Not to mention the huge cash influx for the price of setting up such an operation.

mikemac · 03-10-2008 12:10PM

Sound great posts in this thread, keep it up.

Farmers would prefer not to be getting subsidies. It'd be a much better system if the price they were getting was enough to run the farm and a profit too. But everyone gets their cut and the factory and retailer are getting a far bigger cut than the farmer for every piece of produce you buy in the shop.

For all those complaining about subsidies? Would you be willing to pay the real price of food? Because for many farmers the price they are getting for their produce is almost a loss and it's only subsidies, a love for what they are doing and off farm employment they get that keeps it going.

But instead I'd say there are plently here buying reconstituted god knows what beef products from Lidl and Tesco and complaining about Rip off Ireland.
Ask a farmer what it would realy cost to buy quality Irish beef and you'll learn what things realy cost!

And yes, there are people in the Dept of Agriculture whose job depends on the "cheque in the post" and the forms. Ever fill up a form with stock number?
It's not even possible to enter them online (not that rural areas have broadband :mad:) so you handwrite hundreds of tag numbers and post it off and some civil servant is going to enter them all. That's government waste, not the farmers fault.

REPS is a fantastic scheme. But if you fail to meet standards they'll happily knock 10%, 15%, 20% and so on your payment.

Maybe a lack of understanding from people not familiar with the area. Pick up the Farmers Journal, available in all good newsagents

TheBigLebowski · 03-10-2008 12:58PM

Schism wrote: »

It's not that simple.

If you see a dentist who's not earning enough money would you tell him to stop phucking practicing dentistry?
I'm not saying farmers are stuck to one thing or another but if you've been rearing animals for beef all you're life it's going to require some practice and training before you can confidently switch to say, dairy. Not to mention the huge cash influx for the price of setting up such an operation.

Yes I would tell him to stop. If he's not earning enough practising dentistry, well then that indicates that there are too many dentists and the market has dictated that demand is not high enough to keep prices in dentistry up.

Likewise, if I decide to start producing some other product and lets say someone in China (or Brazil) starts producing them at 1/10th of the price, would I get subsidies from the EU to keep me going. Of course not, so why do farmers get them?

Schism · 03-10-2008 01:19PM

TheBigLebowski wrote: »

Yes I would tell him to stop. If he's not earning enough practising dentistry, well then that indicates that there are too many dentists and the market has dictated that demand is not high enough to keep prices in dentistry up.

Likewise, if I decide to start producing some other product and lets say someone in China (or Brazil) starts producing them at 1/10th of the price, would I get subsidies from the EU to keep me going. Of course not, so why do farmers get them?

Okay, so half of the farmers in the country should stop what they're doing because there isn't room in the market for everyone to make a profit. Lets see what the dole queues are like then.

You forget farming is still huge in Ireland and subsidies are given out to try and keep the farmer (small ones especially) somewhat in the black.

That rich farmer down the road.........

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