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Lack of bus routes in Dalkey!

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Comments

  • #62
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,004 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    I`m hoping Fratton Fred is mistaking genuine concern and exasperation on the Patton Flyer issue for begrudgery,cos I don`t do begrudgery and most other posters here appear to be open minded to a fault :)

    As Fratton sez,the market opportunity for the Patton Flyer route was astutely spotted and availed of by the company.
    However,it should be remembered that the same opportunity had already been spotted by Aircoach amongst others albeit with slightly differing alignments.
    There remains a serious issue as to why the Department of Transport is prepared to countenance licences being issued to operators who then fail to impliment them within a reasonable timeframe.

    It is most likely that Aircoach only started the Greystones route in the wake of the Patton Flyer startup as a panic stricken response to its market share being whisked from under its nose ?

    Make no mistake however but that the issues raised by the Patton Flyer startup will not go away and will if not addressed by the Minister and Department of Transport return again and again to haunt us..:p

    It`s not unlike how we all clamoured to get on board the unregulated Banking Industry when it came to the availability of "Easy Money" loans for New Cars and Spanish Villa`s...however,come the crash we look to the same easy going regulatory regieme and ask why they were not doing more to protect us from.....Ourselves.... :eek:


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #63
    MiniD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 371 ✭✭MiniD


    patrickbrophy18 wrote: »
    Dalkey has no direct connections to the Luas.

    Dalkey has a direct connection with the Red luas line using the Dart.
    patrickbrophy18 wrote: »
    In fact, the Luas would actually be the second change someone from Dalkey would have to make if they were to travel to Dundrum or Ranelagh for example.

    Incorrect. Someone traveling from Dalkey to Dundrum could use the 75 from Dun Laoghaire. Anyone coming from Dalkey to Ranelagh just needs to get the Dart to Sydney Parade and switch to the 18 bus.
    patrickbrophy18 wrote: »
    The 75 is a very slow route from Dun Laoghaire let alone having to change at Dun Laoghaire from Dalkey and I am therefore ommiting it.

    You can't just decide to omit bus routes because they don't suit your argument. Whether it's slow or not, it suffers the same traffic as any other bus route would in this area. The 75 has a 30 minute frequency throughout the day and carries good loadings.

    KC61's excellent post answers all of your queires on the difficulties involved with the bus network in Dublin. You should be grateful to have the Dart and a good peak hour bus service which you can actually board. There are some bus routes across Dublin which leave stops full of people stranded every morning and evening. Compare this to the 7D and 8 which I see half empty heading outbound every evening.
    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    The amount of begrudgery towards the Patton flyer on this board is amazing. People moan about the lack of public transport in this country, then when someone does something about it and gets ****ed about by the government, they get slated for operating it anyway. Surely the support should be for the patton flyer not against it.:confused:
    .

    I'm not sure where you get the feeling of begrudgery from? Everybody has been very clear in expressing their issues with this service, mainly that it's not licenced. I have no support anybody breaking the law to make money.


  • #64
    patrickbrophy18
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,317 ✭✭✭patrickbrophy18


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    I`m hoping Fratton Fred is mistaking genuine concern and exasperation on the Patton Flyer issue for begrudgery,cos I don`t do begrudgery and most other posters here appear to be open minded to a fault :)

    As Fratton sez,the market opportunity for the Patton Flyer route was astutely spotted and availed of by the company.
    However,it should be remembered that the same opportunity had already been spotted by Aircoach amongst others albeit with slightly differing alignments.
    There remains a serious issue as to why the Department of Transport is prepared to countenance licences being issued to operators who then fail to impliment them within a reasonable timeframe.

    It is most likely that Aircoach only started the Greystones route in the wake of the Patton Flyer startup as a panic stricken response to its market share being whisked from under its nose ?

    Make no mistake however but that the issues raised by the Patton Flyer startup will not go away and will if not addressed by the Minister and Department of Transport return again and again to haunt us..:p

    It`s not unlike how we all clamoured to get on board the unregulated Banking Industry when it came to the availability of "Easy Money" loans for New Cars and Spanish Villa`s...however,come the crash we look to the same easy going regulatory regieme and ask why they were not doing more to protect us from.....Ourselves.... :eek:

    May I remind you that the Patton Flyer is doing very well. In my opinion Mr. Patton was very brave in going ahead with the service despite lack of authorization for the Department of Transport. The process of applying for a route license is long winded and unnecessary and is therefore an obstacle. Private operators such as the Patton Flyer are essentially a separate entity from the DOT. Mr. Patton is the only one taking the risks as he is paying for the resources such as buses, drivers and fuel costs among others.

    The DOT took to long to allow him to do this. Mr. Patton didn't need that so called protection from himself as his investment is having good returns. By enforcing such a daft law, the DOT are preventing or certainly slowing down Mr. Patton from providing a service that would encourage car owners to leave their cars at home. As such, the DOT are slowing down the process of complying to the Kyoto Protocol. This law is itself illegal as it slows down the process of switching to environmentally friendly modes of transport. Assuming that the average bus capicity is 42 seater, that is effectively seven 6 seater cars off the road per service or ten and a half 4 seater cars off the road.

    Dublin Bus which is run by the Department Of Transport introduced an unlicensed route which competed directly with the Swords Express. Unlike the competing route, the Swords Express is far more frequent and isn't just restricted mainly to peak times. Swords Express weren't the only people affected by this as the Circle Line route was also affected. The Circle Line recently ceased service altogether as a result. I completely agree with the two privately owned companies as it is unfair competition. This sounds like a case of the private operators are doing well, Dublin Bus take notice of this and report it to the DOT who in turn try and shut the service down and replace it with a shoddy infrequent service. I reckon that they are trying to do this to the Patton Flyer as well.

    As for the whole Greystones Aircoach situation. This service goes nowhere near Dun Laoghaire or Dalkey. Like it or not that is a huge difference. The Greystones Aircoach and Patton Flyer happen to meet at the Blackrock QBC. That is about the only similarity. South of Blackrock it is a different story entirely. Before Blackrock, the Greystones Aircoach visits Bray, Shankill, Loughlinstown, Cherrywood, Cabinteely, Cornelscourt and Deansgrange. On the other hand the Patton Flyer, before reaching Blackrock visits Dalkey, Sandycove, Glasthule, Dun Laoghaire and Monkstown. I think you can see what I am getting at. The stretches are up to 3 miles apart from each other especially at Sandycove and Dalkey. The difference is that I have a ten minute walk to the Patton Flyer as opposed to over an hours walk to the Aircoach. So your arguement about slight difference holds very little merit. Anyway back to the main topic.

    Fratton Fred has taken the words right out of my mouth when he mentions the word burough. The amount of changes one has to endure when getting from one part of the Dun Laoghaire Burough to another part is madness. Going to Blackrock to get to Sandyford is anything but direct. This method could take up to an hour to complete door to door. On the other hand, a direct route from Dalkey would take about twenty minutes to complete, if that. Chopping and changing should only be done if you are going from one side of the Greater Dublin Area or Ireland to the other. Even then, it should be kept to a bear minimum. A large portion of the Killiney region, Dalkey and Sandycove are the most deprived in the Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown area when it comes to bus services. Am I not convincing you yet?


  • #65
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    MiniD wrote: »
    Incorrect. Someone traveling from Dalkey to Dundrum could use the 75 from Dun Laoghaire. Anyone coming from Dalkey to Ranelagh just needs to get the Dart to Sydney Parade and switch to the 18 bus.
    my neighbour does it on a daily basis. He jogged home the other night because he hates the journey so much. If that is the best way to get from from main point of the borough to another then its no wonder the roads are so busy tbh.


    MiniD wrote: »
    I'm not sure where you get the feeling of begrudgery from? Everybody has been very clear in expressing their issues with this service, mainly that it's not licenced. I have no support anybody breaking the law to make money.

    It is the use of the terms Illegal etc that bug me. OK, so swords don't have a similar service, I feel for them, but then they probably don't have to fork out €50 to get them to the airport for an early flight.

    The Patton flyer has done all it can to meet licencing requirements and as far as I am aware has not been rejected, it has not been approved. its a lot less of an offence in my opinion than the thousands of L plates i see on motorways or driving unsupervised. To compare it with gang lords is mad, I sometimes drive over the speed limit, I know people who don't have a TV licence, should they be compared to drug dealers as well?


  • #66
    loyatemu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,604 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    anyone who suggests getting a DART and then a 75 or an 18 as a good option needs their head examined. No-one who has access to a car would voluntarily get on a 75 or an 18 - I've used both these services and quickly lost the will to live.

    Similarly any journey in Dublin that involves changing buses is likely to be an absolute nightmare. I've stood for 20 minutes or more on the N11 and in Ballsbridge waiting for buses into town - these are 2 of the best served routes in the city but service intervals are still highly erratic. When you are waiting at a Dublin bus stop you have no idea a)how long you're going to be waiting or b) whether your bus is running at all.


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  • #67
    KC61
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭KC61


    loyatemu wrote: »
    anyone who suggests getting a DART and then a 75 or an 18 as a good option needs their head examined. No-one who has access to a car would voluntarily get on a 75 or an 18 - I've used both these services and quickly lost the will to live.

    Similarly any journey in Dublin that involves changing buses is likely to be an absolute nightmare. I've stood for 20 minutes or more on the N11 and in Ballsbridge waiting for buses into town - these are 2 of the best served routes in the city but service intervals are still highly erratic. When you are waiting at a Dublin bus stop you have no idea a)how long you're going to be waiting or b) whether your bus is running at all.

    I can understand your skepticism regarding the 75, and with the old timetable it was well founded. However, since last April a new schedule has been in operation on the route, and buses have been given longer running times to get from one terminus to the other, thereby improving reliability dramatically, and also the number of departures have increased.

    I'd also disagree with you, in that I find it hard to believe that provided you check departure times for either the 75 or 18, that it would be hard to plan a connection from DART to bus from either Dun Laoghaire or Sandymount stations given that they are right beside the termini.


  • #68
    MiniD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 371 ✭✭MiniD


    patrickbrophy18 wrote: »
    The amount of changes one has to endure when getting from one part of the Dun Laoghaire Burough to another part is madness. Going to Blackrock to get to Sandyford is anything but direct. This method could take up to an hour to complete door to door. On the other hand, a direct route from Dalkey would take about twenty minutes to complete, if that. Chopping and changing should only be done if you are going from one side of the Greater Dublin Area or Ireland to the other. Even then, it should be kept to a bear minimum. A large portion of the Killiney region, Dalkey and Sandycove are the most deprived in the Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown area when it comes to bus services. Am I not convincing you yet?

    Again, your claims are incorrect. Balckrock has a direct link to Sandyford using the 114 bus. This journey takes a little over 30 minutes. You seem to think that Dalkey is unique in not having direct links to neighbouring suburbs. It's not. Try getting a bus from Crumlin to Islandbridge/Heuston, or a direct bus from Cabra to Finglas. In short, it is not possible to have every suburb linked directly.

    Again, you seem to miss the fact that while the 9 services in and out of Dalkey are running almost empty, there are other parts of the city in a far greater need of buses.
    Fratton Fred wrote: »

    The Patton flyer has done all it can to meet licencing requirements and as far as I am aware has not been rejected, it has not been approved. its a lot less of an offence in my opinion than the thousands of L plates i see on motorways or driving unsupervised. To compare it with gang lords is mad, I sometimes drive over the speed limit, I know people who don't have a TV licence, should they be compared to drug dealers as well?

    What the Patton Flyer is doing is illegal. Plain and simple. Of course there are different levels of crime, but it's still illegal. From my understanding, the Patton Flyer was refused a licenced because it conflicts with the Greystones Aircoach. While I agree this is madness and should not happen, I also believe the law should be upheld.
    The department of transport has referred an airport coach operator to gardai because it says the company is illegally operating a route between Dalkey and Dublin Airport.


    Officials say that the Patton Flyer service, owned by Curtis Coaches, does not hold a route licence and is therefore operating outside the law.

    The provision of any public bus services on a specific route by a private bus operator is subject to the Road Transport Act, 1932.

    But sources familiar with the legal situation have indicated a certain amount of sympathy for the operators because the 1932 act is seen as hopelessly inadequate to deal with modern day transport demands.

    Wholesale reform of the 1932 act has been mooted for some time to make it easier to allow for competition on different bus routes.

    A spokesman for the department of transport said: "When the department became aware that a company advertised as the Patton Flyer was operating unlicensed, scheduled bus passenger services between Dalkey and Dublin Airport, it immediately wrote to the company advising it that the operation of the service was in breach of section 7 of the Road Transport Act, 1932."

    According to the department, the service providers are continuing to illegally operate thehourly route so the matter has been referred to gardai.

    It is understood that another operator has already applied to the department to operate a similar route but has yet to receive permission from officials.

    The operators of the Patton Flyer did not return calls last night seeking comment. Its buses travel from Dalkey to the airport via Blackrock and the Dublin Port Tunnel.

    The service, which began just a few months ago, has proved popular with passengers and uses modern luxury coaches.
    __________________

    It's amazing this service is still running despite it being illegal. I would love to know what the implications would be for staff and passengers if one of these vehicles were incolved in an accident. Are these buses insured to pick up passengers without a licence?


  • #69
    KC61
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭KC61


    patrickbrophy18 wrote: »
    May I remind you that the Patton Flyer is doing very well. In my opinion Mr. Patton was very brave in going ahead with the service despite lack of authorization for the Department of Transport. The process of applying for a route license is long winded and unnecessary and is therefore an obstacle. Private operators such as the Patton Flyer are essentially a separate entity from the DOT. Mr. Patton is the only one taking the risks as he is paying for the resources such as buses, drivers and fuel costs among others.

    The DOT took to long to allow him to do this. Mr. Patton didn't need that so called protection from himself as his investment is having good returns. By enforcing such a daft law, the DOT are preventing or certainly slowing down Mr. Patton from providing a service that would encourage car owners to leave their cars at home. As such, the DOT are slowing down the process of complying to the Kyoto Protocol. This law is itself illegal as it slows down the process of switching to environmentally friendly modes of transport. Assuming that the average bus capicity is 42 seater, that is effectively seven 6 seater cars off the road per service or ten and a half 4 seater cars off the road.

    Dublin Bus which is run by the Department Of Transport introduced an unlicensed route which competed directly with the Swords Express. Unlike the competing route, the Swords Express is far more frequent and isn't just restricted mainly to peak times. Swords Express weren't the only people affected by this as the Circle Line route was also affected. The Circle Line recently ceased service altogether as a result. I completely agree with the two privately owned companies as it is unfair competition. This sounds like a case of the private operators are doing well, Dublin Bus take notice of this and report it to the DOT who in turn try and shut the service down and replace it with a shoddy infrequent service. I reckon that they are trying to do this to the Patton Flyer as well.

    As for the whole Greystones Aircoach situation. This service goes nowhere near Dun Laoghaire or Dalkey. Like it or not that is a huge difference. The Greystones Aircoach and Patton Flyer happen to meet at the Blackrock QBC. That is about the only similarity. South of Blackrock it is a different story entirely. Before Blackrock, the Greystones Aircoach visits Bray, Shankill, Loughlinstown, Cherrywood, Cabinteely, Cornelscourt and Deansgrange. On the other hand the Patton Flyer, before reaching Blackrock visits Dalkey, Sandycove, Glasthule, Dun Laoghaire and Monkstown. I think you can see what I am getting at. The stretches are up to 3 miles apart from each other especially at Sandycove and Dalkey. The difference is that I have a ten minute walk to the Patton Flyer as opposed to over an hours walk to the Aircoach. So your arguement about slight difference holds very little merit. Anyway back to the main topic.

    I think you're still missing the point. Whether or not any of us like it (and as I have said above I think personally that The Patton Flyer should have been licensed, the fact remains it is not, and every other operator has had to abide by the law in this regard. Mr. Patton has been content to operate his service anyway in violation of it.

    Dublin Bus have not been able to introduce any improvements whatsoever in the Lucan/Leixlip/Maynooth or Celbridge areas (where population has exploded) while Circle Line was in operation, despite the fact that Circle Line did not even serve Leixlip or Maynooth. There are significant improvements to services in the Blanchardstown area put on long term hold because the DoT is afraid that because the 37 route shares roadspace with the first 2 miles of the UrBus service (that operates to Dublin Airport and Swords), any improvement to it could be unfair competition, despite vast new housing estates in the Carpenterstown area not having a proper link to/from Blanchardstown Centre.

    Dublin Bus is not run by the DoT. It receives state subsidies, and rather low ones at that, to operate socially essential services which would be otherwise lossmaking, and has received grant aid to purchase new buses. However, the day to day operations of Dublin Bus are nothing to do with DoT except it must (like all other operators except Patton Flyer) apply for approval to change timetables/routes.

    As far as the Swords Express service is concerned, eh, Dublin Bus were there years beforehand (early 1990s to be exact) with the 41X, which operated non-stop from Pinnock Hill in Swords to City Centre (except for a stop at Drumcondra). When the Port Tunnel opened the drivers would ask if there was anyone on for Drumcondra, and if not would then operate via the Tunnel. Now how this could be viewed as removed from commonsense I don't know, but the DoT did and ordered them to not operate via the Tunnel. Dublin Bus ceased doing so (in line with the DoT instruction) and it took a massive campaign instigated by local residents' groups in Swords to get the 41X reinstated through the Port Tunnel.

    In the case of Circle Line, the reality is also somewhat removed from your interpretation above, and has been extensively discussed here. The reality was that this company expanded a very successful peak hour operation (which was doing exceptionally well alongside Dublin Bus) into an all day operation to/from Celbridge, which (for a variety of reasons) proved a disastrous move, principally due to the restrictions that are present under the current legislation. The additional 3 auxiliary departures that Dublin Bus operated were to/from Lucan and not Celbridge, and they operated simply because people were being left behind, as they still are!!!

    Now as for Aircoach, I am inclined to agree with you, in that why should Monkstown, Dun Laoghaire and Dalkey not be entitled to an Airport service? I suspect that had Mr. Patton applied for a licence with a last stop at Monkstown he might have got it, but Aircoach got in ahead of him with the application and were successful. Both have pickup stops along the Blackrock QBC and that is the nub of the problem here. DoT for whatever reason are reluctant to give any two operators permission to operate within the same area, and although I think that in this case it is utterly daft, that is their perogative.

    My point is that every other operator has to abide by this legislation and has done so - Mr Patton does not and that is simply not fair. The law is in this case completely focussed on operators and does not take the consumer perspective whatsoever, but until it is reformed next year we're stuck with it. That should not in my view give individual operators the right to operate services wherever they wish.
    patrickbrophy18 wrote: »
    Fratton Fred has taken the words right out of my mouth when he mentions the word burough. The amount of changes one has to endure when getting from one part of the Dun Laoghaire Burough to another part is madness. Going to Blackrock to get to Sandyford is anything but direct. This method could take up to an hour to complete door to door. On the other hand, a direct route from Dalkey would take about twenty minutes to complete, if that. Chopping and changing should only be done if you are going from one side of the Greater Dublin Area or Ireland to the other. Even then, it should be kept to a bear minimum. A large portion of the Killiney region, Dalkey and Sandycove are the most deprived in the Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown area when it comes to bus services. Am I not convincing you yet?

    No you're not really convincing me, as I still do not believe that there is both the population density and the numbers to warrant a direct bus from Dalkey to Sandyford or Stillorgan. There are far greater numbers of people in the areas mentioned above that are miles ahead of this area in the need for providing additional bus services. The fact remains that there is a train/bus link taking 10 minutes to a high frequency service that delivers you to these areas in a further 20 minutes.

    I again refer you to my point above. Orbital services require that they pass through areas that will guarantee strong loadings along the entire route. This is achieved rarely by end-to-end usage, but by different journeys being made all along portions of the route. There is nothing to suggest to me that there are enough people travelling from Dalkey/Killiney to either Sandyford, Stillorgan or Dundrum that would be prepared to take the bus, to warrant their own bus service.

    I would make the point that in making this trip, one only needs ONE change. Not two or three. ONE. The timetables are freely available for the DART and 59. It is not rocket science to be able plan a connecting journey into a 46A or 75. And as I've said several times of late, the 75 IS now very reliable, given that it now has an achievable schedule. You cannot expect bus routes to go everywhere. There are numerous parts of South Dublin County that are not linked to one another, and similarly with Fingal, and they don't all have the potential connections that Dalkey has. Equally, there are many journeys that require a change of bus en route. Dalkey-Dundrum can be done in appx. 40 minutes by public transport, (7 minutes by DART and 25-30 minutes on the 75), which is not unreasonable.

    Again, my final point - where are you going to get the buses to operate these services? There are none available!


  • #70
    dub_commuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭dub_commuter


    I can't help think that this thread is ridicolous, completely so. Nobody can expect a bus to take them from their home directly to their work where-ever this may be, without any changes, especially when there is no demand. Dalkey has the DART, many people would kill to have the DART in their area but have not even got this option, so I can't comprehend why someone would need the DART as well as a regular bus service - it's just overkill when the bses are not being filled up.

    I myself commute from pretty much as north as you can go into the city right down to Lepoardstown every day through a mixture of a Bus and Luas, my bus journey takes me 50 minutes and then I get the Luas from St Stephen's Green. It's a long commute but pretty stress free with a bunch of great drivers and I could not ask any more, Yes a direct bus roue would be nice, but I honestly don't expect it, no direct bus route can service any two points that are required for everyone.

    I know there has been some talk about connecting transport being useless as the buses never turn up. Luckily my route, operated by Harristown is extremely well run, always on time with the appropriate diagrams so if a bus is delayed slightly there is an appropriate time allowed before it is due to operate a trip in the opposite direction to avoid any late running. If you hit out at the strikes that happened, then believe me, I hate unions, but I backed the strike as I have faith in the people who operate Harristown as the route I take every day has never let me down, unlike many others I have used in the past.

    I know there are very bad examples on the network, particularly in the Blanchardstown area which this is not the case, in one particular route on a few buses a bus is due to commence the return journey 60 minutes after it leaves it's inital terminus, despite the fact the journey by DB's own estimates takes 65 - thats bad pallning obviously and needs to be sorted. Some Garages and services are better than others. But please do not tar DB with all the same brush. There are bad examples and there are good examples. If you got the 38 for instance, then no doubt you would think DB is absloutely attrocious!

    In relation to Aircoach the Aircoach situation is interesting, I heard that the reason they only started offering the Greystones service in the last few months was the time the DOT took to process their license request. I hold no brief for private operators but use Aircoach reguarly when travelling to the Airport and find them excellent. Whilst there are rights and wrongs about private operators Aircoach was one of the first Private companies to make a signifcent investment in the market. They had a hell of a tough time at the start and lost a lot of money right at the start. But they operated within the rules at all times, even when things were looking bad for them in the early days.

    Why should The Patton Flyer feel they are exempt to the rules that everyone else have had to follow in regards to licensing, as has been pointed out, I would be very worried about what would happen if an accident happened when they are running an illegal route. Yes there are rights and wrongs about why the patton flyer and aircoach should not operate with each other, but everyone else has had to live with these rules so why should Mr Patton be any different with his service? I'm sure Aircoach would love to be able to allow people to get on/off any stop on their Belfast route rather than allowing certain people to only get on or off at certain stops, but it doesn't mean they just go and do it anyway does it?


  • #71
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,004 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    I can`t help but agree with dub_commuters evaluation on the state of this thread.

    One last nugget which I came across from last March was a quote from Trevor Patton that he wished to start up another FOUR routes in the "Flyer" mode.

    The same article also outlined the 1932 Transport Act`s penalties of €65 on conviction plus €6.50 per day of unlicenced operation.....However the REALLY interesting bit is that subsequent upon conviction if the operator continues to operate illegally it is open to the Minister to petition the High Court for an order winding up the company.....now there`s a scenario for yiz... :D

    There are also some rather interesting sub issues such as the lack of fully accessible vehicles on the service but perhaps the most serious issue may be the one of Bus Stops.

    One of the reasons for route licencing in the first place is that an operator must notify the Garda Siochana of any and all locations which it is proposed to locate a Bus Stop at.

    As the Patton Flyer is unlicenced it may be deduced that the Gardai have not approved Any of the locations currently used as suitable for further use by this operator....all academic of course...UNTIL there is an accident/incident which results in litigation for damages...then the entire situation gets very hairy indeed.

    I would be very interested to hear the views of the PF`s insurer as to their willingness to assume liability in the event of a serious accident when the policy holder has openly stated his intention to ignore the statutory requirements of operating a licenced service.

    Once again I believe that the situation is NOT of Trevor Pattons making BUT the question of Departmental Responsibility cannot be regarded as just a minor little glitch....The ramifications of this extend far beyond mere Bus Services and could if pushed to the limit cause serious long term damage to the entire concept of rules,regulations and the observance of the Law. ;)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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  • #72
    patrickbrophy18
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,317 ✭✭✭patrickbrophy18


    I heard that the Dublin Transport Authority will be established in January of 2009. Do you think they will have any effect on the cause that I am promoting on this thread?


  • #73
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    MiniD wrote: »
    It's amazing this service is still running despite it being illegal. I would love to know what the implications would be for staff and passengers if one of these vehicles were incolved in an accident. Are these buses insured to pick up passengers without a licence?

    its not amazing, its common sense. Dalkey Gardai are "Looking into it" which i think means "We don't want to stop the Patton Flyer because not only do we use, we don;t want to get lynched by the locals."

    if they are insured and the insurers are aware of the situation, then there should be no problem.


  • #74
    dub_commuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭dub_commuter


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    its not amazing, its common sense.

    I can't see how breaking the laws that everyone else has to abide by is common sense, but maybe thats just me.


  • #75
    KC61
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭KC61


    patrickbrophy18 wrote: »
    I heard that the Dublin Transport Authority will be established in January of 2009. Do you think they will have any effect on the cause that I am promoting on this thread?

    It is very unlikely for all of the reasons that I've offered in the two posts above. The reality is that there are a number of other locations that have a far greater population density that require significant improvements in bus services that would be well ahead of Dalkey.


  • #76
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    dub_commuter wrote: »
    I can't see how breaking the laws that everyone else has to abide by is common sense, but maybe thats just me.

    how many bus companies have been in a similar situation and had the act enforced?

    The gards have a lot more important things to worry about, like actual criminals or even, dare i say it, unlicensed or drunk motorists.

    It is perfectly accpetable for learner drivers to drive anywhere they like on their own, yet a bus company operates (Exceptionally well) a route that is not approved by the government and we're supposed to call in the flying squad.

    I mean it's common sense because, in the grand scheme of things, its not really that important.


  • #77
    patrickbrophy18
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,317 ✭✭✭patrickbrophy18


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    how many bus companies have been in a similar situation and had the act enforced?

    The gards have a lot more important things to worry about, like actual criminals or even, dare i say it, unlicensed or drunk motorists.

    It is perfectly accpetable for learner drivers to drive anywhere they like on their own, yet a bus company operates (Exceptionally well) a route that is not approved by the government and we're supposed to call in the flying squad.

    I mean it's common sense because, in the grand scheme of things, its not really that important.

    Amen to that. You and loyatemu seem to be the only two people who are agreeing with me. There was a forum on another site called Busrage that was in uproar over the poor frequency of the number 8. Here is the URL: http://busrage.com/forum/topic/4434.

    Bar one or two people, the rest were appauled at the new frequency. The majority of people on this thread seem to say that the the 8 bus is empty most of the time. I beg to differ. I was on it the other day and pretty much by the time it reached Dalkey there were roughly eight or nine people on it. A few of these got on at Blackrock and two got on at Town. This was off peak. Other times when I have seen it in the Dalkey area, there have been ten people on it. A few weeks ago I saw five people get of it at the terminus in Dalkey. Again this was off peak.

    I saw it again today twice and there were a good few people on it on each round. The first was at Blackrock (fair enough there were about two or three) and the second time it was at Dalkey (there were about five or six on it). I know it isn't exactly a huge amount but most of the time when I see a 7 bus at Blackrock there are only five or six people on it. KC61, what makes Dalkey so different?

    Let alone, westbound routes which are in far more demand from the Dalkey area. If there isn't a frequent west bound route to the likes of Sandyford, how do you know that it won't do well? Probably, the reason why the 7D doesn't pick up that many passengers as you claim (although contrary to what I have heard) is probably due to it's poor frequency. People have only one chance to get this bus each way, particularly those heading to UCD or Stillorgan. I have heard that a lot of people get on and off this service in the Sandycove, Dalkey area. Someone on this board who was disagreeing with me even said this which is by the way a contradiction in his arguement. If they miss it, the have to spend an extra €2.10 on a return train ticket to Dun Laoghaire. While doing so on a once off trip isn't exactly a huge hole in the pocket, try doing this five days a week. That is effectively money that could have been better spent on two pints at the weekend.

    AlekSmart, I was trying to tell you that by trying to prosecute Mr. Patton for providing a service that would discourage use of the car, the DOT are effectively blocking a more environmentally friendly way of getting to the airport. While it might not be so many cars off the road, public transport is helping people to comply with the Kyoto Protocol. The Kyoto Protocol (KP) is far more important than this draconian law. The DOT's reluctance to provide Mr. Patton with a license only slows down the rate at which people comply with the KP. This is far more illegal as it contributes to the long term ramifactions of global warming which not only affects Ireland but the rest of the world in many places horrifically.
    Once again, I am using bold type face to highlight the more important matters. Do you not see that this cause if far more important?


  • #78
    dub_commuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭dub_commuter


    I'm starting to think this guy is a troll right now?


  • #79
    patrickbrophy18
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,317 ✭✭✭patrickbrophy18


    dub_commuter wrote: »
    I'm starting to think this guy is a troll right now?

    Why do you say that when my arguements are perfectly valid?


  • #80
    MiniD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 371 ✭✭MiniD


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    how many bus companies have been in a similar situation and had the act enforced?

    Most bus companies comply with legislation. For example, Dublin Bus were called to up to question recently when they added two extra non-scheduled buses to the 25X. There was uproar about this as they didn't have a licence for these departures.
    Fratton Fred wrote: »

    The gards have a lot more important things to worry about, like actual criminals or even, dare i say it, unlicensed or drunk motorists.

    I mean it's common sense because, in the grand scheme of things, its not really that important.

    With respect, it is not for you to decide what laws are important. This service is operating illegally. I wish it wasn't and it was granted a licence, but as it currently stands, it should comply with legislation and stop running.
    patrickbrophy18 wrote: »
    The majority of people on this thread seem to say that the the 8 bus is empty most of the time. I beg to differ. I was on it the other day and pretty much by the time it reached Dalkey there were roughly eight or nine people on it. A few of these got on at Blackrock and two got on at Town. This was off peak. Other times when I have seen it in the Dalkey area, there have been ten people on it. A few weeks ago I saw five people get of it at the terminus in Dalkey. Again this was off peak.

    I saw it again today twice and there were a good few people on it on each round. The first was at Blackrock (fair enough there were about two or three) and the second time it was at Dalkey (there were about five or six on it). I know it isn't exactly a huge amount but most of the time when I see a 7 bus at Blackrock there are only five or six people on it. KC61, what makes Dalkey so different?

    The 8 is not a busy service. Do you seriously consider 2 or 3 passengers on a typical journey enough to create a full day service? The 7 is a very busy service and is often under strain at various points along the route. The only time the 8 carries a full load is between Ballsbridge and the City Centre. If you compared a typical journey on a 7 to that on the 8, there would be a massive difference. Fact.
    westbound routes which are in far more demand from the Dalkey area.

    Where is the evidence for this demand?
    If they miss it(7D), the have to spend an extra €2.10 on a return train ticket to Dun Laoghaire. While doing so on a once off trip isn't exactly a huge hole in the pocket, try doing this five days a week.

    Incorrect. They could just board the frequent 46A to Dun Laoghaire and switch to the 59. There is no extra if the student has a pass or uses a transfer 90 ticket.
    Why do you say that when my arguements are perfectly valid?

    Personally I think your points are unrealistic. I suggest you have a read through the 6 pages of this thread and actually read the responses to your demands. You have posted incorrect claims to make points but don't seem to budge when your errors are pointed out. Many posters, some professionals in the transport industry, have explained reasons behind the current bus service in Dalkey. For whatever reason, you don't seem to take these explanations on board.

    I suggest if you really feel passionate about improving the bus service in Dalkey, you should consult your local TD about getting the locals to consider using the bus service which is already in place. Maybe then, with increased passenger numbers, Dublin Bus might consider adding some more journies on the 7D/8.


  • #81
    patrickbrophy18
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,317 ✭✭✭patrickbrophy18


    MiniD wrote: »
    The 8 is not a busy service. Do you seriously consider 2 or 3 passengers on a typical journey enough to create a full day service? The 7 is a very busy service and is often under strain at various points along the route. The only time the 8 carries a full load is between Ballsbridge and the City Centre. If you compared a typical journey on a 7 to that on the 8, there would be a massive difference.

    Most of the time when I see the 7 in Blackrock, I only see two or three heads on it. When is it often under strain as you suggest?
    MiniD wrote: »
    Where is the evidence for this demand?

    I seem to remember a post on this thread saying that the 7D was very busy in the Sandycove, Dalkey area. I have seen this as the case before. Prior to the Patton Flyer introduction, a lot of people were using the car. Now, a lot of these people have now switched to the Patton Flyer. When the old 8 route was scrapped, a lot of people were more skeptical about global warming. This might explain why people abandoned the 8 in favour of their cars. In light of new evidence, a lot of people in the Dalkey and Sandycove area have started to curb their carbon foot print. This includes a better desire to take public transport hence the Patton Flyer doing well in Dalkey. How do you know that the denizens of the Dalkey and Sandycove area won't make a similar move if Dublin Bus were to instate a frequent westbound bound route? Keep in mind the text in bold.
    MiniD wrote: »
    You have posted incorrect claims.

    Where have I ever done this?

    I backed my motion up with population figures of that in the gap in the QBC network and compared it with that of Blackrock and Dun Laoghaire. I also mentioned the Kyoto Protocol which you blissfully seem to ignore. How can you think that meeting the Kyoto Protocol is not more important than the route licensing law? One law is a contradiction to the meeting of the Kyoto Protocol. Incorrect? No. Fact? Yes. As for professionals in the public transport sector? I am beginning to question this as they seem to be over looking the Kyoto Protocol which should be top in their priority list.


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  • #82
    MiniD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 371 ✭✭MiniD


    patrickbrophy18 wrote: »
    Most of the time when I see the 7 in Blackrock, I only see two or three heads on it. When is it often under strain as you suggest?

    Firstly, I can guarantee you Dublin Bus would not have a 10 minute frequency on a route that was only carrying "two or three" heads past Blackrock. Most key bus stops along the 7 route have a good crowd of people waiting for this service and if you travel on this service daily, which I do, I can assure you it carries a full load, often leaving people behind at stops during peak hours.
    I seem to remember a post on this thread saying that the 7D was very busy in the Sandycove, Dalkey area. I have seen this as the case before. Prior to the Patton Flyer introduction, a lot of people were using the car. Now, a lot of these people have now switched to the Patton Flyer. When the old 8 route was scrapped, a lot of people were more skeptical about global warming. This might explain why people abandoned the 8 in favour of their cars. In light of new evidence, a lot of people in the Dalkey and Sandycove area have started to curb their carbon foot print. This includes a better desire to take public transport hence the Patton Flyer doing well in Dalkey. How do you know that the denizens of the Dalkey and Sandycove area won't make a similar move if Dublin Bus were to instate a frequent westbound bound route? Keep in mind the text in bold.

    I suggest you have a read of page 1 of this thread, where bus drivers explain the transport habits of Dalkey residents.

    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=56693195&postcount=9

    As for your incorrect claims...
    the DART is limited to only 2 directions north and south. Secondly, it is very hard to get to Dalkey from places such as Foxrock, Dundrum and Cherrywood.

    The Dart links with Luas and various bus routes along it's route. It's quite simple to get to Foxrock, Dundrum and Cherrywood from Dalkey. By using the frequent dart or 59 bus, and connecting to a 75 (Dundrum), a 46A/75(Foxrock) or a 7 (Cherrywood).
    Most of the time when I see a 7 at Blackrock it is almost empty. This has been the case at peak times also

    Again, the 7 is a very busy service. I'm sure there are drivers here who will back this up.
    There was a large number of route cancellations on the week when the 4 was extended and another northside route were introduced. This was largely because the bus drivers were complaining about having extra hours.

    You still havn't given us details of these large number of route cancellations. Drivers were not complaining about extra hours, but about breaking locations.
    Dalkey has no direct connections to the Luas.

    Dalkey has a direct connection with the Red luas line using the Dart.
    Luas would actually be the second change someone from Dalkey would have to make if they were to travel to Dundrum or Ranelagh for example.

    Someone traveling from Dalkey to Dundrum could use the 75 from Dun Laoghaire. Anyone coming from Dalkey to Ranelagh just needs to get the Dart to Sydney Parade and switch to the 18 bus.
    Going to Blackrock to get to Sandyford is anything but direct.

    Blackrock has a direct bus route to Sandyford (114).
    if they miss it(7D), the have to spend an extra €2.10 on a return train ticket to Dun Laoghaire. While doing so on a once off trip isn't exactly a huge hole in the pocket, try doing this five days a week.

    Incorrect. They could just board the frequent 46A to Dun Laoghaire and switch to the 59. There is no extra if the student has a pass or uses a transfer 90 ticket.


    You have now decided, after 6 pages, to introduce the Kyoto Protocol into your argument.
    How can you think that meeting the Kyoto Protocol is not more important than the route licensing law?

    I don't. You're the only person discussing this. If you really think throwing more empty buses out to Dalkey will help the environment then good luck to you.


  • #83
    patrickbrophy18
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,317 ✭✭✭patrickbrophy18


    While I will still maintain my views, I think this thread was a lost cause due to the high levels of skepticism it aroused. I tried to resist as much as I could but I'll just give up. I'll save this cause for another place and another time. Till then, I'll keep this thread on ice. It might be a few months or a few years before I continue this thread. :confused:


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