Lack of bus routes in Dalkey!

iwudluvit

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if Dalkey ... a major infrastructure improvement in the next 2 to 5 years. .... What if a shopping center like the ones in Blackrock or St. Stephens Green was planned for Dalkey?

I'd be shocked and very surprised. You're way off. Not in the foreseeable future.

It's too small, no access, too much competition from Dun Laoghaire / Dundrum / Bray. No appetite for commercial spend in view of current and foreseeable consumer demand.

Any development will be over the hill along N11 / Cherrywood / Luas with links to there at end of their spoke.

patrickbrophy18

iwudluvit wrote: »

I'd be shocked and very surprised. You're way off. Not in the foreseeable future.

It's too small, no access, too much competition from Dun Laoghaire / Dundrum / Bray. No appetite for commercial spend in view of current and foreseeable consumer demand.

Any development will be over the hill along N11 / Cherrywood / Luas with links to there at end of their spoke.

Do you not think that the traffic in Dalkey is rapidly getting worse though?
From my perspective, it is. I frequently see cars, trucks and buses having to pull up into the mouth of a Cul De Sac or side road to let the on coming vehicle (s) pass. Ideally, no road in a suburban area should be like this. I would suggest turning at least some parts of the road network in the Dalkey area into a series of one-way streets. The other alternative would be to widen the main roads leading to Dalkey. Or it could be a mixture between one-way systems and road widening.

iwudluvit

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Do you not think that the traffic in Dalkey is rapidly getting worse though?. I would suggest turning at least some parts of the road network in the Dalkey area into a series of one-way streets. The other alternative would be to widen the main roads leading to Dalkey. Or it could be a mixture between one-way systems and road widening.

Oh yes, I agree with this. Parts of the road network are already one way. But perhaps more could be done. The main roads are r118/119 are probably wide enough. It's Dalkey Ave, Tubbermore, Sorrento that are narrow but they are local access roads really almost and very hemmed in with houses.

The idea of a major commercial infrastructure like a shopping centre before a revisit of the roads would be the cart before the horse.

It's really the traffic thru Dalkey, not the traffic into and around that's the trouble. Difficult to see what can be done there.

patrickbrophy18

iwudluvit wrote: »

Oh yes, I agree with this. Parts of the road network are already one way. But perhaps more could be done. The main roads are r118/119 are probably wide enough. It's Dalkey Ave, Tubbermore, Sorrento that are narrow but they are local access roads really almost and very hemmed in with houses.

The idea of a major commercial infrastructure like a shopping centre before a revisit of the roads would be the cart before the horse.

It's really the traffic thru Dalkey, not the traffic into and around that's the trouble. Difficult to see what can be done there.

"Hemmed in"? What does that mean?

Anyway, you are right there. A shopping center couldn't be built in the Dalkey area without dramatically altering the use or appearance of the surrounding infrastructure. It's important to realise that this idea of a shopping center in the Dalkey area is purely hypothetical. As such, I DON'T want this to create rumours that it would happen. It's just wishful thinking on my part. However, this is off topic. My main complaint was the lack of bus routes in the area and surrounding environs. I was just saying that if a shopping center where ever to be built in the area that it would put the final bit of pressure on Dublin Bus to introduce more services.

iwudluvit

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

"Hemmed in"? What does that mean?

that it would be hard to widen the roads, the existing roads have either houses with no gardens or minimal gardens on both sides. only way is to make them one way.

patrickbrophy18

What is the meaning of the word denizens?

I am aware that there is a heavy use of the private car in the area in question. To a certain extent, I would agree that this would cripple the viability of bus services. From this fact, one could deduce that the people of Dalkey are the worst car based global warming offenders. I was watching a documentary on National Geographic which stated that there is enough ice in the North and South poles to raise sea levels by 80 meters. Dalkey would be completely submerged by this. Therefore, if the population including myself want to hold on to their village they beter start using the bus. There is a latent demand for a much higher level of public transport in the area. After all, a tri-axle could take at least 12 cars off the road (If we assume that the average car is a six seater).

However, a frequent day time service via the Stillorgan QBC has never been tried before. The 46N seems to do very well beyond Dun Laoghaire. I was on it last night and there were at least 12 people on it passed Dun Laoghaire. I would therefore assume that this amount would be many times greater during the day. I don't understand why the 46A couldn't be extended to Dalkey (Not every service but every third or fourth one). The extended service could bypass Monkstown Farm where the five to ten minutes of lost journey length would be re-allocated to the Dalkey stretch. This wouldn't exactly be asking much. It would require a complete change of attitude from the people of the Dalkey, Killiney and Sandycove area. Would I not at least be right in theory?

HydeRoad

No, I don't think so. I am not putting you down. It would be great for the environment of villages like Dalkey if we could get rid of a lot of the cars needlessly choking up the place. And of course it would be great to have frequent bus services in all directions.

The bus service you are advocating is simply awful. It does everything wrong that countless extensions to Dublin Bus routes in other areas have done, creating horrendously long journeys that are anything but attractive to an already disinclined commuting public.

If the average resident of Dalkey wishes to drive to Dublin, they drive the direct way. That is the Rock Road, the way number 8 buses and number 8 trams before them went. They do not put miles, time, and expense on themselves by needlessly driving round in circles.

You are WAY off the beam suggesting extending 46As to Dalkey. That is economic madness in this time of rising fuel costs and ever increasing traffic congestion. If it is possible to drive from Dalkey to Dublin in under half an hour at a reasonable pace (the old number 8 could do it in 40 minutes off peak), why would anyone advocate a bus journey that would take up to an hour and a half? I certainly wouldn't travel on it!

The only kind of suitable bus service direct to Dublin is exactly that, a DIRECT service. And I believe at this time there isn't the market for a frequent enough service. The old number 8 ceased operating because nobody used it.

While I see a time in the future where a number 8 bus could return, as a frequent, fast, limited stop service, it is not yet. At this time, the only bus service I see viable for Dalkey is a local service operated by smaller buses, linking to the main bus corridors in Dún Laoghaire.


* * * * *
Denizen

–noun
1. an inhabitant; resident.
2. a person who regularly frequents a place; habitué: the denizens of a local bar.
3. British. an alien admitted to residence and to certain rights of citizenship in a country.
4. anything adapted to a new place, condition, etc., as an animal or plant not indigenous to a place but successfully naturalized.

–verb (used with object)
5. to make a denizen of.

patrickbrophy18

A lot of the suggestions that I have made are being met with huge skepticism. It is true that Dalkey lies at the end of a spoke. This doesn't mean that certain bus services can't be viable. The Patton Flyer is proof of this. Very few people get on the 59 past Dalkey as the terminus is a dead end. Where as the terminus for the Patton Flyer is the Airport which is very sought after. If the terminus for the 59 where for example Sandyford or UCD a lot more people would get on it. The fact that it's terminus is a dead end cripples it's viability. People don't care about parks such as Mackintosh as they aren't areas of business. Fair enough, there is a car manufacturer, a hospital and a Lidl nearby but other than that nothing to write home about. A lot of people get on the Patton Flyer at Dalkey. The reason why Mr. Patton set the service up is partially because Dublin Bus are so reluctant set up any decent service for the area. Would anyone even agree with me that Dalkey is very isolated?

MiniD

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

A The reason why Mr. Patton set the service up is partially because Dublin Bus are so reluctant set up any decent service for the area. Would anyone even agree with me that Dalkey is very isolated?

The Patton flyer does not have a licence to operate, and is doing so illegaly. Dublin Bus were refused extending the 746 airport service outside the current timetable.

I don't agree that Dalkey is isolated. It is served by DART, it has a local service (59) running every 40 minutes. It also has 9 peak time journeys (7D/8) running to the city centre.

patrickbrophy18

Firstly, the DART is limited to only 2 directions north and south. Secondly, it is very hard to get to Dalkey from places such as Foxrock, Dundrum and Cherrywood. Bar the almost non existent 7D, there is no other direct way of getting to the Stillorgan Dual Carriageway let alone places further west. Ideally, there should be connections to the upper road every mile (or at least at every town) along the DART line so that there wouldn't be as much chopping and changing. Having to take 2 services to get to a place that would otherwise take 10 minutes to get to directly is madness. While Dalkey isn't a major town like Blackrock or Dun Laoghaire, it is a town nonetheless. Dun Laoghaire and Blackrock have 10 bus services each some of which are shared and most of which are frequent. The bus service in Dalkey is generally very restricted. The most frequent (comparitively speaking) bus serving Dalkey is the 59 which isn't all that frequent. 40 minutely is not frequent. It's alright at best. If the 59 is empty past Dalkey (which regularly the case) its most likely to do with the fact that terminus is a dead end.

About the Patton Flyer. Mr. Patton applied for a license 2 years ago and was never granted it. They say it was because it was a supposedly similar route to the Greystones Aircoach. From Blackrock onwards yes. Before Blackrock, it couldn't be any more different. It goes up to the Dual Carriageway via the 45 stretch therefore bypassing a big niche which is Dun Laoghaire, Sandycove and Dalkey. Nobody should have to pay for a license to run a bus service. If there is demand for a service (of which there was for the Patton Flyer), it should be introduced effective immediately. For the record, a lot of people get on the service at Dalkey. The only resources bus operators should have to pay for petrol, drivers and taxes. I don't think any other country has this problem.
What do you think?

MiniD

Firstly, the DART is limited to only 2 directions north and south.

The DART connects with other rail links form Connolly to the rest of the country, and also connects with LUAS, providiong yet another rail link to Heuston.

Secondly, it is very hard to get to Dalkey from places such as Foxrock, Dundrum and Cherrywood. Bar the almost non existent 7D, there is no other direct way of getting to the Stillorgan Dual Carriageway let alone places further west.

It's a similar situation for many areas around the city. For example, it's difficult to get from Ballsbridge to Dundrum directly, or to get from Blanchardstown to Coolock directly. You simply can't have buses linking every suburb.

The most frequent (comparitively speaking) bus serving Dalkey is the 59 which isn't all that frequent. 40 minutely is not frequent. It's alright at best. If the 59 is empty past Dalkey (which regularly the case) its most likely to do with the fact that terminus is a dead end.

I really don't think Dalkey needs something like a 15 minute frequency. Buses would be running empty. You're forgetting how frequent the DART is... trains every 10 minutes?

If there is demand for a service (of which there was for the Patton Flyer), it should be introduced effective immediately.

Tell this to the people of Adamstown, Swords, Blanchardstown, Celbridge who physically can't get onto their bus it's so full. The DOT has refused service expansion in these areas. You say Dublin Bus are reluctant to set up new services, but this simply isn't the case. The plans for a 24 hour 746 service to the airport were rejected. There is a much greater demand for a 24 hour bus service on the 746 than there ever would be for the Patton Flyer, but it wasn't to be.

patrickbrophy18

I know the DART is frequent. That is a blinding statement of the obvious. Town, Bray, Dun Laoghaire and Blackrock are not the only places people from Dalkey go to. I know a lot of people who go to UCD and Dundrum from Dalkey. It is also worth pointing out that Ballsbridge and Coolock are already serviced by frequent bus services. Ballsbridge is also walking distance from the DART and is therefore serviced frequently by bus and DART. It is also worth pointing out that Ballsbridge is not to far from the Luas which connects to Dundrum. It also has connections to the Stillorgan Dual Carriageway. Adamstown is serviced by Commuter rail also which is relatively frequent and is therefore another mode of transport into the city center. I have heard a lot of my fellow Dalkey "denizens (as you guys say)" complain about the lack of service from places other than those by the DART.

I know that Dalkey doesn't exactly have big businesses and shopping centers but that doesn't justify depriving the area of obvious tranportation needs such as even a semi frequent one that covers the Stillorgan QBC. I still maintain that an hourly 8 bus would also do quite well. The old 8 frequency happened to be matched by the DART which is the reason why the passenger numbers became diluted. Hourly is a quarter of its old frequency which would allow passnger numbers to build up. Hourly is basic enough not to be too much to ask. It's all about options at the end of the day. Dalkey doesn't exactly have enough options to meet modern demands. Maybe Dalkey does need to be rejuvenated in a way that will make it a popular place to go be it night or day.

MiniD

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

It is also worth pointing out that Ballsbridge and Coolock are already serviced by frequent bus services. Ballsbridge is also walking distance from the DART and is therefore serviced frequently by bus and DART. It is also worth pointing out that Ballsbridge is not to far from the Luas which connects to Dundrum.

The point I was making is that not every suburb is connected by bus, as you seem to want for Dalkey. If you wanted to get to Dundrum, you only need to hop on the frequent DART or get a 59 to Dun Laoghaire and switch to a 75 bus.

If there was a demand for more buses in Dalkey then we would have the current 7D and 8 full at peak times but they're not. People are using the Dart or driving their cars.

Cookie_Monster

MiniD wrote: »

If there was a demand for more buses in Dalkey then we would have the current 7D and 8 full at peak times but they're not. People are using the Dart or driving their cars.

Hit the nail on the head there

The current services aren't used, why would there be a need for additional ones?

Fratton Fred

MiniD wrote: »

You say Dublin Bus are reluctant to set up new services, but this simply isn't the case. The plans for a 24 hour 746 service to the airport were rejected. There is a much greater demand for a 24 hour bus service on the 746 than there ever would be for the Patton Flyer, but it wasn't to be.

I get the 5am Patton Flyer every Monday morning and it is always full by the time it leaves Monkstown. Other than Taxi, there is no other way of the people of Dalkey and Dun Laoghaire getting to the airport before 6am when a lot of flights start to leave.

There is demand for it, Dublin Bus just like to think there isn't as it doesn;t fit in with their current planning.

Cookie_Monster

MiniD wrote: »

The plans for a 24 hour 746 service to the airport were rejected. There is a much greater demand for a 24 hour bus service on the 746 than there ever would be for the Patton Flyer, but it wasn't to be.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

There is demand for it, Dublin Bus just like to think there isn't as it doesn;t fit in with their current planning.

You can hardly blame Dublin Bus for this?
They applied for permission to run the route and were denied. Unlike Mr. Patton they followed the rules and don't operate an illegal service!

patrickbrophy18

MiniD wrote: »

The point I was making is that not every suburb is connected by bus, as you seem to want for Dalkey. If you wanted to get to Dundrum, you only need to hop on the frequent DART or get a 59 to Dun Laoghaire and switch to a 75 bus.

If there was a demand for more buses in Dalkey then we would have the current 7D and 8 full at peak times but they're not. People are using the Dart or driving their cars.

Most of the time when I see a 7 at Blackrock it is almost empty. This has been the case at peak times also. I was on the 8 recently and the Dalkey stretch had about ten people on it. By this I mean that when it was on a the Upper Glenageary Road just before Killiney Towers Roundabout, it had ten people on it. For the record, this was off peak. Another time I saw the exact same service (2:30 Dalkey bound) drop roughly five people off at the Dalkey Terminus. Another time when I caught sight of the 8 at the bottom of my road there were already ten people on it again off peak at roughly 10:20 in the morning. It slowly passed me by and I decided to take a head count. What does this tell you?

Now, about the 7D. The 7D leaves before most commuters wake up which is why it is empty in the morning. Think about it. It leaves Dalkey at 5:20 in the morning on its first round. There is very little merit to this as the lectures in UCD won't be starting for another 3 or so hours. Also nobody would be up at this time. The 7:35 makes more sense as it's arrival in UCD is tied in more with the start of lectures. I know a few people who use this particular round on a regular basis. Someone on this thread left a comment saying that its evening return was full of UCD students passed Dun Laoghaire. What does this tell you? On Saturday, it only has one outbound journey again at a very unsociable hour of 5:45. There is also no return journey.

If frequent bus services weren't viable in Dalkey, the Patton Flyer wouldn't be doing well. This service is hourly and most of the time is half full by the time it arrives at Dun Laoghaire. Another person left a comment saying that as journeys progress buses can fill up quickly. The reason why the 59 doesn't do to well passed Dalkey on it's Mackintosh Park bound journey is because Mackintosh Park is mostly residential with very few nearby commercial buildings. A lot of people seem to be overlooking this very impoirtant fact. Sandyford on the other hand is host to some of the biggest companies in the world including the highly popular Google. Dalkey to Dun Laoghaire seems to do very well on the 59 as people are being dropped off at a place of higher significance. I would also like to point out that the 59 has been coming in double decker form recently. This is becoming more frequent.

Fratton Fred

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

You can hardly blame Dublin Bus for this?
They applied for permission to run the route and were denied. Unlike Mr. Patton they followed the rules and don't operate an illegal service!

The word illegal is a bit dramatic. He's not selling crack to kids, he is providing a needed service.

Xylophonic

That legally he shouldn't.

Cookie_Monster

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Most of the time when I see a 7 at Blackrock it is almost empty. This has been the case at peak times also

Generally 7's fill up again at Dun Laoghaire, regardless of the time of day. At rush hour you can be lucky to get on one its so crowded at times

Cookie_Monster

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The word illegal is a bit dramatic.

No it isin't. Like everything either its legal or illegal, in this case illegal, simple.
Regardless of whether it is "needed" or not.

patrickbrophy18

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

No it isin't. Like everything either its legal or illegal, in this case illegal, simple.
Regardless of whether it is "needed" or not.

I will remind you again that Mr. Patton did apply for a license and he never heard back from the Department of Transport. It shouldn't be illegal to run bus services anyway. As for the word "needed". This is far more important than being legal or not. It sounds like this draconian law like the recently introduced Intoxicating Liquor Bill 2008 were put in place deliberately to cripple progress. Sometimes, I think that common sense escapes our government. Ideally, if something is needed it should be put in place IMMEDIATELY, no questions asked. Like it or not, most cities (of a similar population) in other countries in the world and indeed there suburbs have extensive transport connections.

Fratton Fred's point is far more valid as it shouldn't be illegal to cater for needs at all. Then again, this country is quite backward. The Dalkey Community Council and Senator Eugene Regan both agree with me that the bus service in Dalkey is very scarce. Both parties have been in constant contact with Dublin Bus in relation to this problem and nothing is being done about it. That is why I refer to Dublin Bus as reluctant. I even heard that when a bus was put in place of the DART during the upgrade that people at certain bus stops weren't even being served despite flagging the bus. This tells me that the driver wants to make it look unviable.

This tells me that the bus drivers want to see it cancelled so that they wont have to work as much. When the 4 was extended to Stradbrook Blackrock and it's auxilary(A) route was introduced there was uproar from the drivers point of view. A lot of employees would jump at the chance of a shift extension as it means more money. However, it seems to be the opposite due to laziness and bad attitude on the drivers part. It is very coincidental and conveinient that a lot of the people on this thread are ex bus drivers for Dublin Bus. A pattern seems to be emerging alright. The 2003 film Intermission seems to portray this attitude very well. At one point the main bus driver asks when his colleagues shift finishes to which he replies ten minutes, followed by "you lucky pr***". Don't get me wrong, a good few bus drivers I have met have been very pleasent. However, there isn't enough of them.

Victor

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

If frequent bus services weren't viable in Dalkey, the Patton Flyer wouldn't be doing well.

You need to differentiate between standard and premium services.

HydeRoad

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

This tells me that the bus drivers want to see it cancelled so that they wont have to work as much. When the 4 was extended to Stradbrook Blackrock and it's auxilary(A) route was introduced there was uproar from the drivers point of view. A lot of employees would jump at the chance of a shift extension as it means more money. However, it seems to be the opposite due to laziness and bad attitude on the drivers part. It is very coincidental and conveinient that a lot of the people on this thread are ex bus drivers for Dublin Bus. A pattern seems to be emerging alright. The 2003 film Intermission seems to portray this attitude very well. At one point the main bus driver asks when his colleagues shift finishes to which he replies ten minutes, followed by "you lucky pr***". Don't get me wrong, a good few bus drivers I have met have been very pleasent. However, there isn't enough of them.

You seem to be blaming the lack of buses in Dalkey as somehow the fault of the 'drivers.' You aren't making any sense at all now. Fair play for campaigning for more bus services in Dalkey, sometimes it takes people to campaign tirelessly to get things done, but your arguments as you present them here are doing you no favours.

Sort out your spelling, get rid of the bold typeface, make a list of bullet points and salient issues, and stick to them. Your arguments are rambling at the moment. But you do have points. I am trying not to be annoyed with you. Your motives are good.

The only way to campaign for something is to demonstrate how money can be saved, not how money can be squandered. You want people to listen to you. You want credibility. Show some research, and hard figures, and you will interest people. Don't alienate people with arguments that bear no relation to reality.

patrickbrophy18

HydeRoad wrote: »

You seem to be blaming the lack of buses in Dalkey as somehow the fault of the 'drivers.' You aren't making any sense at all now. Fair play for campaigning for more bus services in Dalkey, sometimes it takes people to campaign tirelessly to get things done, but your arguments as you present them here are doing you no favours.

Sort out your spelling, get rid of the bold typeface, make a list of bullet points and salient issues, and stick to them. Your arguments are rambling at the moment. But you do have points. I am trying not to be annoyed with you. Your motives are good.

The only way to campaign for something is to demonstrate how money can be saved, not how money can be squandered. You want people to listen to you. You want credibility. Show some research, and hard figures, and you will interest people. Don't alienate people with arguments that bear no relation to reality.

When I was comparing the population of the Dalkey, Killiney and Sandycove areas with that of the Blackrock and Dun Laoghaire areas, those where hard figures. One could deduce that the size of the population in a given area has a very strong influence on the viability of transportation services. The Blackrock area seems to cover the same amount of land as that of the Dalkey, Killiney and Sandycove area. I encorporate Killiney and Sandycove as they are largely part of this gap in the tranportation network. I also use comparisons to demonstrate the uneven nature of the "Quality?" Bus Network.

I don't encoroate Glasthule as it is walking ditance of Dun Laoghaire. By this, I mean that the 46A or any other bus from Dun Laoghaire is five minutes walk from Glasthule village. Glasthule also lies next to the 111 route which next year will connect it to the Luas. The same thing goes for the majority of the Glenageary area which is why I amn't incorporating it either. Do you see where I am coming from? If so, I will continue.

Having to take one mode of transport (DART or 59) to reach another only adds time to the overall journey lenght. Someone on this thread mentioned that the most direct route is exactly that, direct. This was said while disagreeing with me which is almost a complete contradiction. Some parts of Dalkey and Killiney are a good distance away from both DART and Dun Laoghaire's various bus services. From some parts of the area in question, it can be up to an hour walking ditance from the Dun Laoghaire terminus. What I was suggesting is a bus service or bus services that would start in Dalkey and work its way through Sandycove and Killiney area.

As for the way I am writing. I am using bold to highlight the important parts of the arguement. Having a dig at my spelling is just being a smart Alec as these spelling mistakes are just typing errors. That last paragraph in my previous comment describes a well known fact about bus drivers.

The reason why I write paragraphs is because it is a formal way of getting the point accross. Credibilty and formality while not the same do complement each other nicely. You want bullet points HydeRoad? Here are two bullet points for you.

Below is a list of 2 unfortunate facts:

• There was a large number of route cancellations on the week when the 4 was extended and another northside route were introduced. This was largely because the bus drivers were complaining about having extra hours. Unprofessional? Yes. Rambling? I am afraid not.
• I have come accross many people who have complained about the attitude that bus drivers have when serving customers. I have experienced quite high levels of ignorance by bus drivers myself when boarding various buses. Again, this is unprofessional.
• If look at a map of Blackrock, Dun Laoghaire, Dalkey and Bray on Google Maps you will notice how Dalkey is the farthest from the upper road. The other three areas are strongly linked with Stillorgan QBC. Intermediate areas such as Shankill, Cherrywood, Booterstown, Monkstown, Sydney Parade, Ballybrack *, Rochestown Avenue all benefit from the bus services. *While Ballybrack is part of Killiney it lies to the south west or Cabinteely end.

Anyway, getting back to the main point. Most of Killiney, Dalkey and Sandycove are very cut off. This arguement does bear relation to reality. The reality is that there is huge room for improvement in the Dublin Bus network and a good place to start would be the area in question. Thanks for saying that my motives are good. You didn't have to imply that you are annoyed with me though. That is just hurtful. If you are an ex bus driver, I made it abundantly clear that not all of them are unpleasent hence the bold type face. However, I have come across a lot of unpleasent ones.

Victor, standard and premium services aim to provide a cheaper alternative to the taxi for getting to places.

MiniD

I will remind you again that Mr. Patton did apply for a license and he never heard back from the Department of Transport. It shouldn't be illegal to run bus services anyway. As for the word "needed". This is far more important than being legal or not.

With respect, you are not in a position to decide what should be legal or not. The department of Transport did not grant a licence to the Patton Flyer. This service should not be operating. This service does not have a licence to pick up passenegrs and operate a bus service.

Here are two bullet points for you.

Below is a list of 2 unfortunate facts:

* There was a large number of route cancellations on the week when the 4 was extended and another northside route were introduced. This was largely because the bus drivers were complaining about having extra hours. Unprofessional? Yes. Rambling? I am afraid not.
* I have come accross many people who have complained about the attitude that bus drivers have when serving customers. I have experienced quite high levels of ignorance by bus drivers myself when boarding various buses. Again, this is unprofessional.
* If look at a map of Blackrock, Dun Laoghaire, Dalkey and Bray on Google Maps you will notice how Dalkey is the farthest from the upper road. The other three areas are strongly linked with Stillorgan QBC. Intermediate areas such as Shankill, Cherrywood, Booterstown, Monkstown, Sydney Parade, Ballybrack *, Rochestown Avenue all benefit from the bus services. *While Ballybrack is part of Killiney it lies to the south west or Cabinteely end.

There are 3 bullet points there...

Can you elaborate on these large number of route cancellations? Route 4 and 4A were introduced to give extra much needed capicity on the Rock Road. They were launched on the same day as the 128 using extra buses bought under the transport 21 scheme. The industrial dispute was centered on rostering arrangements and breaking locations. What this has to do with your call for more buses in Dalkey is lost on me...

To bring this thread back to it's original topic. While I can understand your desire for more buses in Dalkey, I find it hard to figure out what you want exactly. You want a link to the Stillorgan QBC, you want a direct frequent link to the city centre, you suggest extending some 46As to Dalkey etc.
To be honest, if I thought the existing bus service in Dalkey was under strain I would agree for improvements.

The fact is, Dalkey is served by a frequent train service and a peak hour bus service. It also has a frequent local service and a Nitelink. Using the train and the 59, linking Dun laoghaire, this gives access to buses serving to Dundrum, Tallaght, UCD, Stillorgan etc. If the Dart wasn't in existance then of course there would be a need for a more frequent 8 but if the people of Dalkey had to choose, they will always opt for the Dart.

AlekSmart

I must confess that I share MiniD`s sense of exasperation at the essential point of this thread.
Granted patrickbrophy18 raises a valid point regarding how such an intrinsic part of urban fabric as a bus route is actually decided upon.

However,like Hyde Rd and others I find myself struggling with the actuality of what the situation currently is as against what he appears to be suggesting.

At the Days end if patrickbrophy18 or anybody else has strong feelings regarding this then he should in the first instance write to the Secretary General of the Department of Transport who,no matter what others may say,has full responsibility and control over the establishment of public transport bus routes.

Suggesting that Bus Atha Cliath have any input into the issue is wide of the mark.
The company could submit 100 different route permutations for Dalkey and environs and the Department would then be required to consider each one in great depth,with any decision unlikely before patrickbrophy reaches118.

Currently,any and all improvements in Dublin`s public bus services remain comprehensively stalled until the Department of Transport decides on what is policy and what is not.

The Patton Flyer,as mentioned by several here,operates only as a consequence of its principal taking a very public decision to ignore the law of the land in much the same way as the current crop of gang leaders do in more serious ways...it`s only a matter of scale..the essential decision remains the same...Obey the Law or Break it...the decision`s yours.
However in the Patton Flyer case the water is muddied by the remarkable inability or unwillingness of theMinister for Transport,His Department and,somewhat incredibly An Garda Siochana to actually accept responsibility for upholding that Law...Odder and Odder it gets...

It`s also unfortunate that patrickbrophy18 heads off on a tangent concerning the pro`s and con`s of various Busdrivers "attitudes" and the "attitudes" of various people to them....I rather suspect there will be as many "attitudes" as there are people involved...that is one of the downsides of life itself I fear.....the unwillingness of the rest of the world to accept that one is right...I know I suffer from it greatly :rolleyes:

Fratton Fred

The amount of begrudgery towards the Patton flyer on this board is amazing. People moan about the lack of public transport in this country, then when someone does something about it and gets ****ed about by the government, they get slated for operating it anyway. Surely the support should be for the patton flyer not against it.

Anyway, back on topic.

As I have said before, at the moment Dalkey is great if you want to head into the City centre, but for me people's main reason for taking public transport is to get to work. To get public transport from Killiney/Dalkey/Sandycove to the areas main places of work (Which are even in the same borough), Dundrum, cherrywood and Sandyford, is a nightmare. it involves getting the Dart to Dun Laoghaire (The wrong direction) and then a bus. Surely there should be something from Dalkey up towards Cherrywood and then a connector from the to Sandyford and or Dundrum, especially with the Luas coming.

patrickbrophy18

AlekSmart wrote: »

I must confess that I share MiniD`s sense of exasperation at the essential point of this thread.
Granted patrickbrophy18 raises a valid point regarding how such an intrinsic part of urban fabric as a bus route is actually decided upon.

However,like Hyde Rd and others I find myself struggling with the actuality of what the situation currently is as against what he appears to be suggesting.

At the Days end if patrickbrophy18 or anybody else has strong feelings regarding this then he should in the first instance write to the Secretary General of the Department of Transport who,no matter what others may say,has full responsibility and control over the establishment of public transport bus routes.

Suggesting that Bus Atha Cliath have any input into the issue is wide of the mark.
The company could submit 100 different route permutations for Dalkey and environs and the Department would then be required to consider each one in great depth,with any decision unlikely before patrickbrophy reaches118.

Currently,any and all improvements in Dublin`s public bus services remain comprehensively stalled until the Department of Transport decides on what is policy and what is not.

The Patton Flyer,as mentioned by several here,operates only as a consequence of its principal taking a very public decision to ignore the law of the land in much the same way as the current crop of gang leaders do in more serious ways...it`s only a matter of scale..the essential decision remains the same...Obey the Law or Break it...the decision`s yours.
However in the Patton Flyer case the water is muddied by the remarkable inability or unwillingness of theMinister for Transport,His Department and,somewhat incredibly An Garda Siochana to actually accept responsibility for upholding that Law...Odder and Odder it gets...

It`s also unfortunate that patrickbrophy18 heads off on a tangent concerning the pro`s and con`s of various Busdrivers "attitudes" and the "attitudes" of various people to them....I rather suspect there will be as many "attitudes" as there are people involved...that is one of the downsides of life itself I fear.....the unwillingness of the rest of the world to accept that one is right...I know I suffer from it greatly :rolleyes:

Okay, I was going off on a tangent when I brought up the subject of bus drivers. For that, I appologise. MiniD, that was a typing error. I appologise for that also.

Anyway, between Dun Laoghaire and the city there is a wide variety of bus routes. Monkstown, not only benefits from the very frequent DART but it also benefits from the 7, the 7A and the 8. The first route will give Monkstown direct connectivity with the Luas when it opens in Cherrywood in 2009. Monkstown is also a five to ten minute walk from the very frequent 75 and 46A bus routes depending on where you live in Monkstown. The 75 gives Monkstown connctivity to bothLuas lines at Tallaght and Dundrum. It just bypasses Monkstown Farm. It is also not far from the 4 and the 4A terminus. Booterstown benefits from the 7, 7A, 8, 45, 4 and 4A. Shankill, lies along all of the Bray to town routes as well as being situated along the 45A Bray-Dun Laoghaire feeder bus.

All of these commutes bypass a very big portion of the Dalkey, Killiney and Sandycove environs leaving it with the least number of routes. Dalkey has no direct connections to the Luas. In fact, the Luas would actually be the second change someone from Dalkey would have to make if they were to travel to Dundrum or Ranelagh for example. The 75 is a very slow route from Dun Laoghaire let alone having to change at Dun Laoghaire from Dalkey and I am therefore ommiting it. I took the 75 from Dundrum to Dun Laoghaire and it took thrity five to forty minutes. This was both off peak and on a Sunday. That is beside the point. If there was a frequent connection between Dalkey and the Luas, it would only take 10 minutes to get to. Dundrum therefore be only 25 minutes away.

KC61

OK there are several issues here.

1) The Patton Flyer
I think most of us are in full agreement that the manner in which the DoT decided not to issue a licence to this operation is plain daft. It apparently would be in conflict with the Aircoach operation along the Rock Road. The narrow method with which the DoT decide on whether licences are issued or not is as I have said before nonsensical, and is completely operator focussed while not looking at the customers' needs. However, until the 1932 and 1958 Transport Acts are reformed, we are stuck with it.

However the reason I and other posters do have an issue with this operation continuing without a licence is that in numerous other locations around the city Dublin Bus and other operators have been refused permission to operate services by the DoT and they have had to accept that decision (for better or for worse). Why should the citizens of Dalkey be any different to the rest of the city? There are people in Swords, Lucan, Maynooth, Celbridge, Blanchardstown and Castleknock (among others) that have not had any improvement in bus services precisely because the DoT will not sanction any increase in Dublin Bus services. Yet, Mr. Patton continues regardless.

2) Premium Coach -v- Regular Bus
As Victor rightly says, one needs to differentiate between premium coach services and regular bus services. There are a whole breed of individuals out there who will gladly use a service such as the Patton Flyer or Aircoach, or similar coach services, who would never dream of using a regular bus. And nothing but nothing will take them out of their cars. That is a harsh reality.

3) Orbital bus routes
Orbital bus services are exceptionally difficult to plan. They need to operate through areas where there will be a greater likelihood of people getting on and off the bus all along the route. This of course does not suit people travelling from one end of the route to the other, but the reality is that they tend to be in the minority. Unlike the radial routes to/from the city centre where most people are going to/from the city, on orbital routes most people's travel patterns differ from one another and the challenge is getting a compromise route that suits the majority.

That is why the 75 operates via Stillorgan, Dundrum, Ballinteer, Rathfarnham, Firhouse en route from Dun Laoghaire to Tallaght.

Similarly, that's why the 17 operates via UCD, Dundrum, Rathfarnham, Terenure, Crumlin en route from Blackrock to Rialto.

4) Drivers
Bringing the drivers' actions in Harristown into this argument (whether one agrees with them or not) is a red herring and has nothing to do with the overall planning of the bus network. It was to do with rosters and working hours, which is the job of the bus company to manage.


5) Dalkey Bus Services
I'm not sure what exactly you are looking for. Is it an improved service on the 8 or is it a an all day 7D or a local link service to/from the Stillorgan QBC. Unfortunately, I cannot see any of these happening for a variety of reasons.

Firstly the market for increased "bus" services is just not there. That may sound harsh, but I am afraid that there are not enough people prepared to use the bus in that area to justify it. They are wedded to their cars.

Your desire appears to be to get to the QBC. That requires only one change and you have several options to do it:
a) DART to Dun Laoghaire and 46A or 75
b) DART to Blackrock and 17
c) DART to Sydney Parade and 3
d) DART to Sandymount and 18
e) 59 to Dun Laoghaire and 46A or 75

Yes the 75 takes on average 25-30 minutes from Dun Laoghaire to Dundrum, but any route that is going to make that trip will take the same amount of time for the reasons outlined at section 3 above.

The reality is that there are not hundreds or thousands of people in Dalkey wanting to go to the LUAS or to the Stillorgan QBC. There are enough people to warrant the 7D, 8 and 59 bus services, and realistically that is it. Many parts of Dublin have nowhere near the number of options that Dalkey does. People in Dublin (not just Dalkey) have to get used to changing buses en route for orbital journeys - there are a finite number of possible routes available. There is a bus passing through Dalkey approximately every 40 minutes all day that connects with a high frequency route, and a train every 20 minutes that does the same. As I say, there are a lot of other places in Dublin with a far greater population density with nowhere near that level of service.

However, the principal reason I say that it won't happen is that there are NO spare buses!!! There are far more locations throughout the city that are crying out for a decent bus service that are way up the pecking order for any additional buses that may appear whenever the Minister decides to finally grant approval for extra vehicles.

Finally, for your info the 0520 service is not strictly a 7D. It is primarily an early morning service to get drivers into Donnybrook (and has operated since the very very early days).

It actually operates from Dalkey via the following route:

Dalkey (Post office) - Barnhill Rd - Avondale Rd - Church Rd - Shanganagh Rd - Shankill Church - Dublin Rd - N11 - Wyatville Rd - Churchview Rd, then regular 7 route as far as Nutley Lane - Donnybrook Garage - Anglesea Rd - Merrion Rd to City terminating on Burgh Quay.