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Abortion Unfiltered

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  • 17-09-2008 2:56pm
    #1
    Ultravid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 436 ✭✭


    I want to raise awareness of an excellent website which shows from every angle - biological, political, conditional, and philosophical - that abortion is the greatest injustice in the world today.

    Read the articles on the site, watch the videos, and we can then use this thread to discuss the issues raised.

    http://www.abort73.com/


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    #2
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    how about you back up your opinion with your own arguments? I could link to a dozen websites that would claim there's nothing wrong with abortion.


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    #3
    Virgil°
    Registered Users Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭Virgil°


    This issue has been done to death already.
    Moral of the story: Neither side budge an inch and the thread gets locked.

    Edit: By the way "The greatest injustice" !?!?. Thats a tad insulting to several other pressing problems this planet is host to.


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    #4
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Besides this has been done, locked, done again and locked again, in the last two weeks.

    The only thing we've established without doubt is that certain posters can't discuss abortion without resorting to personal insults.


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    #5
    bushy...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,467 ✭✭✭bushy...


    Ultravid wrote: »
    I want to raise awareness of an excellent website which shows from every angle - biological, political, conditional, and philosophical - that abortion is the greatest injustice in the world today.
    Read the articles on the site, watch the videos, and we can then use this thread to discuss the issues raised.

    http://www.abort73.com

    Looks a bit iffy , like something they talk about here :

    http://www.bbt.com/about/privacyandsecurity/fraudulentwebsite_mimic.html

    www.abort.com was probably the original


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    #6
    Zaph
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 47,283 ✭✭✭✭Zaph


    Ultravid wrote: »
    I want to raise awareness of an excellent website which shows from every angle - biological, political, conditional, and philosophical - that abortion is the greatest injustice in the world today.

    Personally I'd say that millions of children dying every year for want of safe drinking water was the greatest injustice. Or maybe that millions of unwanted children are born every year because of the lack a proper co-ordinated family planning programme in many underdeveloped countries. Or that there are millions of people displced from their homes by war. Or the fact that even in this day and age people die of hunger every second of every day. Or that people are routinely detained, tortured or killed for their political or religious beliefs in countries all around the world. Or that the richest countries in the world have stood idly by and done little or nothing to resolve any of these situations.

    But sure if hyperbole is what floats your boat then don't let me stop you. However some facts and opinions of your own rather than a link to the site of some "ministry" who seem to be as intent on selling web design packages as they are their message would strengthen your argument immensely.


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    #7
    Ultravid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 436 ✭✭Ultravid


    Hey this thread needn't be locked! We need not resort to personal insults as they do not achieve anything and have no bearing on the discussion. I will take seriously the suggestion made by the first poster to this thread, and I will post my reply in a short time, to get the ball rolling, so to speak.

    If you have nothing constructive to say, please do not view or post on this thread! If you want to insult anyone, insult me by PM! I can take it!


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    #8
    rainbow kirby
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    Zaph speaks more sense than the rest of this thread put together.


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    #9
    Ultravid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 436 ✭✭Ultravid


    Ok so I said I would post my own reply, so here it is.

    I say that abortion is the greatest injustice in the world today, because it snuffs (read kills) out the life of an unborn human person. It is the killing of an innocent human life and I will demonstrate how so in this post.

    This injustice exceeds all others that one could name, since the right to life is a basic, fundamental human right. The right to live. The right to life. To be deprived this right is a primary and supreme injustice.

    It may surprise many people to learn that the scientific community are in absolutely no doubt as to when human life begins: they unanimously agree that life begins at conception - this is just one quote, but there follows a link to many others. To say that science does not know when human life begins is dishonest, since there is no debate - emphasis mine:
    Professor Micheline Matthews-Roth
    Harvard University Medical School:

    "It is incorrect to say that biological data cannot be decisive...It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception."
    Much more here from multiple scientific authorities:
    http://www.abort73.com/HTML/I-A-1-medical.html

    It is also interesting to note what the pro-abortion people have said about it in the past:
    Faye Wattleton, the longest reigning president of the largest abortion provider in the world – Planned Parenthood – argued as far back as 1997 that everyone already knows that abortion kills. She proclaims the following in an interview with Ms. Magazine:
    "I think we have deluded ourselves into believing that people don't know that abortion is killing. So any pretense that abortion is not killing is a signal of our ambivalence, a signal that we cannot say yes, it kills a fetus."
    Again this individual does not stand alone, there are many more interesting statements:
    David Noonin, in his book, A Defense of Abortion, makes this startling admission:
    "In the top drawer of my desk, I keep [a picture of my son]. This picture was taken on September 7, 1993, 24 weeks before he was born. The sonogram image is murky, but it reveals clear enough a small head tilted back slightly, and an arm raised up and bent, with the hand pointing back toward the face and the thumb extended out toward the mouth. There is no doubt in my mind that this picture, too, shows [my son] at a very early stage in his physical development. And there is no question that the position I defend in this book entails that it would have been morally permissible to end his life at this point." (p. xiv)
    More statements here, and the sources for those I've posted to follow up:
    http://abort73.com/index.php?/abortion/medical_testimony

    The fact is, abortion is the killing of an innocent human life. It is not the life of a goat, or a monkey, but only that of a human being.

    In the meantime, I would recommend the website www.abort73.com, as it contains all the information you need to be informed of the truth about abortion. It will shock you. It will disturb you. But it is the truth.


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    #10
    Zaph
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 47,283 ✭✭✭✭Zaph


    Ultravid wrote: »
    I say that abortion is the greatest injustice in the world today, because it snuffs (read kills) out the life of an unborn human person. It is the killing of an innocent human life and I will demonstrate how so in this post.

    This injustice exceeds all others that one could name, since the right to life is a basic, fundamental human right. The right to live. The right to life. To be deprived this right is a primary and supreme injustice.

    In every example I mentioned above innocent lives are being ended on a scale that puts the number of abortions carried out worldwide into the shade. How are those lives any less valuable than that of an unborn baby?
    Ultravid wrote: »
    Ok so I said I would post my own reply, so here it is.


    It may surprise many people to learn that the scientific community are in absolutely no doubt as to when human life begins: they unanimously agree that life begins at conception - this is just one quote, but there follows a link to many others. To say that science does not know when human life begins is dishonest, since there is no debate - emphasis mine:

    Much more here from multiple scientific authorities:
    http://www.abort73.com/HTML/I-A-1-medical.html

    It is also interesting to note what the pro-abortion people have said about it in the past:

    Again this individual does not stand alone, there are many more interesting statements:

    More statements here, and the sources for those I've posted to follow up:
    http://abort73.com/index.php?/abortion/medical_testimony

    The fact is, abortion is the killing of an innocent human life. It is not the life of a goat, or a monkey, but only that of a human being.

    In the meantime, I would recommend the website www.abort73.com, as it contains all the information you need to be informed of the truth about abortion. It will shock you. It will disturb you. But it is the truth.

    Where is your own reply? All those facts, opinions, call them what you will, are lifted directly from that website. They are not your own, they have been compiled by someone else and posted on a website with an agenda that you just happen to support.

    And just so we're clear on this I'll state my own position on abortion - I have none. I am completely neutral on the subject and have no strong opinions either for or against it. What I do have strong opinions on, however, is lazy posting and passing off other people's doctrine as being your own "proof" as to why your particular point of view is correct. Did you think we wouldn't notice or something?


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    #11
    Phototoxin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭Phototoxin


    ITs clear that ultravid is agasint abortion and the sources cited are some of the reason why, you ahd ly expect her/him to get a medical degree. Sources are being cited.

    Addionally while the lives of the unborn are of no more value that children in any other part of the world that does not make it alright. just because people are dying in some coutries doesnt make intentional killing alright.

    In addition a simple change of law in the countires effected by abortion would dramatically cut them.

    Also its worth nothing that there is a correlation between better maternity care and the absense of abortion in a country...


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    #12
    Ultravid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 436 ✭✭Ultravid


    Zaph wrote: »
    In every example I mentioned above innocent lives are being ended on a scale that puts the number of abortions carried out worldwide into the shade. How are those lives any less valuable than that of an unborn baby?



    Where is your own reply? All those facts, opinions, call them what you will, are lifted directly from that website. They are not your own, they have been compiled by someone else and posted on a website with an agenda that you just happen to support.

    And just so we're clear on this I'll state my own position on abortion - I have none. I am completely neutral on the subject and have no strong opinions either for or against it. What I do have strong opinions on, however, is lazy posting and passing off other people's doctrine as being your own "proof" as to why your particular point of view is correct. Did you think we wouldn't notice or something?

    I am not talking here about starving children. That too is an injustice, but this discussion is about abortion. We know there is enough food and money to feed all the world's people. The problem is human selfishness.

    I posit that the problem of abortion is also one of human selfishness.

    The arguments on abort73 are supported by myself. I say that abortion is the greatest injustice in the world today. I held that abortion was gravely wrong long before I discovered that particular website. I do not see how my use of an information resource is somehow problematic to you.

    I say it again: Abortion is the killing of an innocent human life.


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    #13
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Ultravid wrote: »
    The fact is, abortion is the killing of an innocent human life. It is not the life of a goat, or a monkey, but only that of a human being.

    What's so great about humans anyway?


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    #14
    Phototoxin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭Phototoxin


    if they're not great then why is your sig telling us to donate blood ?? To feed vampires ?:pac:


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    #15
    Nerin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭Nerin


    Dave! wrote: »
    What's so great about humans anyway?

    happy meals on legs is all they are! Bah,is this another abortion bashing thread by someone with an agenda,or,is it another lazy troll thread. Zaph speaks much sense. I'd thank him if there was a mobile thanks button.


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    #16
    Phototoxin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭Phototoxin


    This is my last post before I get back to guild wars and msn..

    It doesnt seem like a bashing thread, infact the OP hasn't bashed it they've just put forth reasons why and support of thier position. If anything its the other superfulous comments.:(


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    #17
    Ultravid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 436 ✭✭Ultravid


    It is interesting that there is a zealous desire to silence all discussion on abortion on boards.ie.

    You would actually think that they are terrified about discussing it, and so out comes the bashing/insult card in order to lock all threads, and thus stifle discussion. Scary.


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    #18
    Nerin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭Nerin


    Ultravid wrote: »
    It is interesting that there is a zealous desire to silence all discussion on abortion on boards.ie.

    You would actually think that they are terrified about discussing it, and so out comes the bashing/insult card in order to lock all threads, and thus stifle discussion. Scary.

    :rolleyes: oh ffs come off it. We discussed it last week. And the week before that. Two, maybe Three threads i believe. Posting a link to some site to start a thread about abortion,on its own,is the reason i would feel less than inclined to have a serious discussion. Threads get locked when- prochoice people get annoyed and tell prolife people to **** off and stop being so enraging,or when prolifers call prochoicers baby killers. Since i've joined boards theres been loads of abortion threads. But they.re usually the same,neither side budges. There is no conspiracy,we aren't silencing you. Thats that.


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    #19
    Meirleach
    Registered Users Posts: 240 ✭✭Meirleach


    Ultravid wrote: »
    It is interesting that there is a zealous desire to silence all discussion on abortion on boards.ie.

    You would actually think that they are terrified about discussing it, and so out comes the bashing/insult card in order to lock all threads, and thus stifle discussion. Scary.

    It is a rather touchy subject, so bashing and insulting does tend to happen, I don't think there's any boards conspiracy to shush it up though(although there's probably a fair few people sick of hearing about it!).


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    #20
    Mena
    Registered Users Posts: 3,180 ✭✭✭Mena


    Ultravid wrote: »

    It may surprise many people to learn that the scientific community are in absolutely no doubt as to when human life begins: they unanimously agree that life begins at conception - this is just one quote, but there follows a link to many others. To say that science does not know when human life begins is dishonest, since there is no debate - emphasis mine:

    Much more here from multiple scientific authorities:
    http://www.abort73.com/HTML/I-A-1-medical.html

    I'm sorry, but I have to call Bulls**t here. Can you provide some sort of evidence for this claim?


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    #21
    Ultravid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 436 ✭✭Ultravid


    Ok. I don't want to insult anyone nor get personal and I would ask the same of any visitor to this thread.

    If anyone wants to get personal with me, PM me! (This is a half-joke =p)

    I would suggest that antagonists be banned or their posts deleted, and the mannerly remainder can continue their discussion.

    To Mena: the evidence is in the link, which shows the testimony of countless medical experts and medical school textbooks. It's all there. The science is saying human life begins at conception.

    The link again, is here:
    http://abort73.com/index.php?/abortion/medical_testimony

    Scroll down - you can see the books, the quotes - this is what the student doctors are taught about human life.


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    #22
    Nerin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭Nerin


    Ultravid wrote: »
    Ok. I don't want to insult anyone nor get personal and I would ask the same of any visitor to this thread.

    If anyone wants to get personal with me, PM me! (This is a half-joke =p)

    I would suggest that antagonists be banned or their posts deleted, and the mannerly remainder can continue their discussion.

    To Mena: the evidence is in the link above, which shows the testimony of countless medical experts and medical school textbooks. It's all there. The science is saying human life begins at conception.

    a-mods will decide. B-religious,philosophical and scientific means usually are need to decide something like "when life starts". None have all agreed or come to a totally universal conclusion. Hence,as mena said so eloquently,its bull.


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    #23
    Ultravid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 436 ✭✭Ultravid


    Sorry to double post, but here is more evidence of the fact that science tells us life begins at conception:

    http://www.prolifephysicians.org/lifebegins.htm

    Just one of the quotes there:
    "To accept the fact that after fertilization has taken place a new human has come into being is no longer a matter of taste or opinion ... it is plain experimental evidence."

    The "Father of Modern Genetics" Dr. Jerome Lejeune, Univ. of Descarte, Paris


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    #24
    Phototoxin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭Phototoxin


    None have all agreed or come to a totally universal conclusion. Hence,as mena said so eloquently,its bull.

    the same could be said of evolution, particle physics, or a host of any other things. Does that make them all bull ?


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    #25
    Nerin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭Nerin


    Phototoxin wrote: »
    the same could be said of evolution, particle physics, or a host of any other things. Does that make them all bull ?

    well,theories,aren't all proven,i agree that evolution makes sense,but i wouldn't say its totally proven 100% correct and flawless.. saying they are totally concrete,and fully proof of whatever you are arguing,yes,yes it is bull. The comment that because a group say something is such a way so it must be right, and everyone else is wrong. Bull.


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    #26
    Phototoxin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭Phototoxin


    Realistically life began either 650 billion years ago or 6000 (if you are yong earther creationist loon) anyway...

    However i do think that a babys life begins when it is even a single cell, as otherwise who is to say how many cells we need to be human ? If no one really knows surely it is better to err on the side of caution and not kill them ?


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    #27
    Nerin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭Nerin


    Phototoxin wrote: »
    Realistically life began either 650 billion years ago or 6000 (if you are yong earther creationist loon) anyway...

    However i do think that a babys life begins when it is even a single cell, as otherwise who is to say how many cells we need to be human ? If no one really knows surely it is better to err on the side of caution and not kill them ?

    a tadpole (even frogspawn) is not a frog. Describe a frog. 4 legs,Amphibian etc Tadpole-not a frog. But is potential to become a frog. If i killed a tadpole,i killed a tadpole,i didn't kill a frog. I killed a potential frog. I kill a bunch of cells,i didn't kill a human. Thats my opinion.


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    #28
    Phototoxin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭Phototoxin


    but you are a bunch of cells.. so if I kill your bunches of cells surely I will kill you..

    I would say that that imagery is more appropraite to a sperm and egg. But even then the tadpole has a full set of frog dna the sperm or the egg alone doenst.


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    #29
    Ultravid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 436 ✭✭Ultravid


    Nerin wrote: »
    a tadpole (even frogspawn) is not a frog. Describe a frog. 4 legs,Amphibian etc Tadpole-not a frog. But is potential to become a frog. If i killed a tadpole,i killed a tadpole,i didn't kill a frog. I killed a potential frog. I kill a bunch of cells,i didn't kill a human. Thats my opinion.

    If you reject science what do you base your opinion on?

    The moment egg and sperm unite, you have a new individual human being who begins to grow and develop at that moment. By 18-21 days the heart will begin to beat. By 6 wks, they will move on their own, and respond (draw away from) a needle if stuck during an amniocentesis. Solomen and Berg, as well as Curtis are leading college Biology texts. Both say conception is the beginning of the human life cycle. You can argue the rights of the person all you want, but facts are facts, human life begins at conception.


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    #30
    bquinn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 48 ✭bquinn


    Zaph wrote: »
    In every example I mentioned above innocent lives are being ended on a scale that puts the number of abortions carried out worldwide into the shade. How are those lives any less valuable than that of an unborn baby?



    Where is your own reply? All those facts, opinions, call them what you will, are lifted directly from that website. They are not your own, they have been compiled by someone else and posted on a website with an agenda that you just happen to support.

    And just so we're clear on this I'll state my own position on abortion - I have none. I am completely neutral on the subject and have no strong opinions either for or against it. What I do have strong opinions on, however, is lazy posting and passing off other people's doctrine as being your own "proof" as to why your particular point of view is correct. Did you think we wouldn't notice or something?


    How can you call someone who does the research to find the facts lazy? You say you have no opinion about abortion, but apathy is not an excuse to allow others to suffer. "Evil flourishes when good men do nothing." Yet that is what you seem to be advocating. The difference between a child killed by abortion and the child killed by starvation is just a little bit of time. Both suffer, and as members of the same species, we have the responsibility to care for both. Either you stand up for those who can't defend themselves, or you are part of the group who causes the suffering. That is for you to decide.


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    #31
    Nerin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭Nerin


    Ultravid wrote: »
    If you reject science what do you base your opinion on?

    The moment egg and sperm unite, you have a new individual human being who begins to grow and develop at that moment. By 18-21 days the heart will begin to beat. By 6 wks, they will move on their own, and respond (draw away from) a needle if stuck during an amniocentesis. Solomen and Berg, as well as Curtis are leading college Biology texts. Both say conception is the beginning of the human life cycle. You can argue the rights of the person all you want, but facts are facts, human life begins at conception.

    then i will. And i'll disagree with your belief,and you with mine. Circles as usual. There are scientists that will disagree with your scientists,religious folk that will disagree with your religious folk,and philosophers that will disagree with yours.


This discussion has been closed.
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