Pat Hickey suggests more funding...

Mikel · 14-09-2008 06:17PM

cowzerp wrote: »

what is your suggestion as seen as you asked the questions?

I suggest that any sport funding strategy should not be based on what people believe our best chances of winning medals are.
I suggest that sports like boxing for eg should be funded on the basis of the contribution they make to the overall welfare of the country, so say for instance there's 100 boxing clubs with an average of say 50 kids training.
That's 5000 kids who are engaging in a healthy activity, getting fit, developing confidence.
So I say, give them a pile of cash.

The potential for medal winners is irrelevant imo. Yes it's a big achievement and well done and everything, but it benefits a small number of people.
At the end of the day this 'medal winners' is just an excuse for people in the pub to cheer at the tv.

Remember when we were all cycling fans? Or swimming fans?
This time for two weeks everyone became a boxing expert.
But it's all forgotten very quickly, and for the most part the benefits wane just as quickly.

And remember, not all sports are Olympic sports. Where do they stand?

Also, be careful what you wish for. At the moment boxing is flavour of the month and everyone thinks the HP is a great idea.
But people are fickle, what would it take for them to say otherwise.
One bad games Maybe two?

cowzerp · 14-09-2008 06:28PM

as boxing clubs are mainly in hard up rough areas they tend to keep a lot of potential druggies, robbers, joyriders and muggers off the streets and keep them on the straight and narrow, this is way more valuable than medals, over th course of a few years 100's of kids could be trained in 1 club, even the 1's that dont stick it out would be boosted in self worth and confidence, this is why boxing should stay top of the list..and the simple fact that there non profit makes a massive difference in my eyes..

so we seem to be on the same wave lenght!

conor rowan · 14-09-2008 09:26PM

cowzerp wrote: »

the money would be better spent on judo than swimming etc,,
but they should put more into boxing as its ran as non profit by all amateur clubs and is generally a very irish sport also and always our best chance of medals, most martial arts clubs are making profit so dont deserve the funding as much imo...

hate to see the rich yuppy sports get lots of funding though! they dont need it really and its just lining peoples pockets!

define yuppy sport?

Nothingcompares · 14-09-2008 09:38PM

Obviously Golf, Rugby, Cricket, Croquet, Squash beach volley ball.....

Mikel · 14-09-2008 10:45PM

cowzerp wrote: »

as boxing clubs are mainly in hard up rough areas they tend to keep a lot of potential druggies, robbers, joyriders and muggers off the streets and keep them on the straight and narrow, this is way more valuable than medals, over th course of a few years 100's of kids could be trained in 1 club, even the 1's that dont stick it out would be boosted in self worth and confidence, this is why boxing should stay top of the list..and the simple fact that there non profit makes a massive difference in my eyes.

I'd say we more or less agree, although you have a very romantic view of boxing clubs... but I don't run one so what do I know :pac:

Boxing has a track record in this kind of thing, and to me that is their value, not the number of medals the lads pick up. So that is what i think they should be judged on. Tbh you could probably put any other number of sports in that bracket too, I just don't think they should be valued less just because they don't seem a prospect for a medal.

I realise there is a limited budget to go around, I think the call on where the money goes should be made on the basis of other things

Pingu · 15-09-2008 09:12AM

cowzerp wrote:

...hate to see the rich yuppy sports get lots of funding...

...judo clubs get mats given to them every other year! the only expense most judo clubs have is insurance....

...How does boxing suffer? its always been our best olympic sport..and where we get world champs at pro level, i dont see world champ judoka's...

...as boxing clubs are mainly in hard up rough areas they tend to keep a lot of potential druggies, robbers, joyriders and muggers off the streets and keep them on the straight and narrow, this is way more valuable than medals...

I feel I should be crying even reading this for all the poor boxing clubs. Nice play on the emotive language though.

But in all seriousness in one point you're saying that boxing should get the funding as it has been our most successful Olympic sport. Then in another point the fact that boxing keeps potential druggies off the streets is way more valuable than medals. So you're pretty much suiting yourself/ boxing with your arguement?

As the current situation stands with funding of MA/anything that's not Rugby/GAA in this country for athletes of any level wheter it's six year olds in the local parish hall or sports centre or someone preparing for a European Championship should be welcomed and shouldn't be whined/moaned about.

cowzerp · 15-09-2008 11:58AM

Pingu wrote: »

I feel I should be crying even reading this for all the poor boxing clubs. Nice play on the emotive language though.

But in all seriousness in one point you're saying that boxing should get the funding as it has been our most successful Olympic sport. Then in another point the fact that boxing keeps potential druggies off the streets is way more valuable than medals. So you're pretty much suiting yourself/ boxing with your arguement?

As the current situation stands with funding of MA/anything that's not Rugby/GAA in this country for athletes of any level wheter it's six year olds in the local parish hall or sports centre or someone preparing for a European Championship should be welcomed and shouldn't be whined/moaned about.

What are you on about? it was stated that medals should not be the be all and end all of where the money goes, so i gave another valid reason why boxing should be supported, in my club the kids pay 2 euro a week for 5 sessions of top training, down below our club the kenpo train 2 times a week and im guessing its minimum 5 euro a class,

and another important point, it tends to be the rougher kids doing the boxing and the softer kids doing the karate, so do you propose that both get equal funding even though 1 club has more dedication and is voluntary while the other is ran for profit and only train 2 times a week.

i'd love to see judo, kickboxing, thai boxing and all the combat sports get funded but we all know its not going to happen at any decent rate, all these make money to buy themselves pints by training and charging a fare rate, they do well financially so i dont see where the lack of money problem is.

Roper · 15-09-2008 12:04PM

Cowzer I think if we all had your attitude then no kid from a poorer area would even dare step onto a tennis court or try their hand at rugby. Equally, no kid from Foxrock would dare step into a boxing club.

Pingu · 15-09-2008 12:17PM

One of your reasons for supporting more funding for boxing was that it is one of our most successful sports and that you don't see world champion tennis players judoka's etc. But then you say that medals aren't the be all and end all so you use the boxing success to bolster your own point while at the same time saying medals don't matter. Which is it?

So as the kids that do karate are in your opinion "softer" they should get more funding? Maybe they prefer Karate? or JiuJitsu? or Judo? or Tennis? or Handball? So you feel that they shouldn't get as much funding?

Are you saying the people that coach Karate or Judo aren't dedicated? are in it for the money? To be perfectly honest with you that's down right disrespectful. How dare you make such accusations, all to bolster your "woe is me" line with respect to boxing. You're based in Rush right? why not drop down and watch a judo session in Lusk, Portmarnock or Swords and then come back on here and try and say that the people coaching their aren't doing it for the love of the sport?

"all these make money to buy themselves pints.." yes people are coaching Karate and Judo in order to buy alcohol, of course that really is their motivation, it has been a big secret until now - but you have uncovered it - well done.

Alot of the funding need is to support athletes and to help fund them in their training and to enable them to attend training camps on the continent so they can have the top level of training partners. And that they can have the top level of support while here.

conor rowan · 15-09-2008 12:34PM

correct me if im wrong, but was ken egan not on the top level of funding from the irish sports council along with the shotgun fella?

as for moaning about other sports getting funding, im not entirely convinced that any sport gets neglected more so than other.

the big sports soccer,GAA,rugby etc have more money as they are the BIG sports and generate money themselves through jersey sales, tv rights, gate receipts etc (and yes the GAA did receive a lot of funding for croker from the government but we do need a large stadium that is becoming more and more multi use).also GAA is a symbol of national pride/heritage and therefore always going to have a stronger hand

i had a similiar argument with one of ken egans supporters in a pub in beijing who was having a pot shot at sailing and the sailors competing. something along the lines of " theyre all loaded and dont need the money", which is absolute bollox.once you get to olympic standard, most irish athletes are scraping by and could do with more funding.
all sports have an intrinsic value. all sports encourage healthy living.team work, dedication etc. to say one is better than another and deserves more funding is crap.

as for the actual funding itself, is it even there? who here has applied for it and been denied and on what basis have they been refused?id like to hear more about the actual process of obtaining funding.

Judomad · 15-09-2008 12:40PM

conor rowan wrote: »

correct me if im wrong, but was ken egan not on the top level of funding from the irish sports council along with the shotgun fella?

as for moaning about other sports getting funding, im not entirely convinced that any sport gets neglected more so than other.

the big sports soccer,GAA,rugby etc have more money as they are the BIG sports and generate money themselves through jersey sales, tv rights, gate receipts etc (and yes the GAA did receive a lot of funding for croker from the government but we do need a large stadium that is becoming more and more multi use).also GAA is a symbol of national pride/heritage and therefore always going to have a stronger hand

i had a similiar argument with one of ken egans supporters in a pub in beijing who was having a pot shot at sailing and the sailors competing. something along the lines of " theyre all loaded and dont need the money", which is absolute bollox.once you get to olympic standard, most irish athletes are scraping by and could do with more funding.
all sports have an intrinsic value. all sports encourage healthy living.team work, dedication etc. to say one is better than another and deserves more funding is crap.

as for the actual funding itself, is it even there? who here has applied for it and been denied and on what basis have they been refused?id like to hear more about the actual process of obtaining funding.

do you know how much money the irish judo association got from the government this year or last year?????? doubt it, so this is an invalid comment in my opinion!!

judomick · 15-09-2008 01:17PM

Judomad wrote: »

do you know how much money the irish judo association got from the government this year or last year?????? doubt it, so this is an invalid comment in my opinion!!

how much?

cowzerp · 15-09-2008 01:23PM

Pingu wrote: »

One of your reasons for supporting more funding for boxing was that it is one of our most successful sports and that you don't see world champion tennis players judoka's etc. But then you say that medals aren't the be all and end all so you use the boxing success to bolster your own point while at the same time saying medals don't matter. Which is it?

So as the kids that do karate are in your opinion "softer" they should get more funding? Maybe they prefer Karate? or JiuJitsu? or Judo? or Tennis? or Handball? So you feel that they shouldn't get as much funding?

Are you saying the people that coach Karate or Judo aren't dedicated? are in it for the money? To be perfectly honest with you that's down right disrespectful. How dare you make such accusations, all to bolster your "woe is me" line with respect to boxing. You're based in Rush right? why not drop down and watch a judo session in Lusk, Portmarnock or Swords and then come back on here and try and say that the people coaching their aren't doing it for the love of the sport?

"all these make money to buy themselves pints.." yes people are coaching Karate and Judo in order to buy alcohol, of course that really is their motivation, it has been a big secret until now - but you have uncovered it - well done.

Alot of the funding need is to support athletes and to help fund them in their training and to enable them to attend training camps on the continent so they can have the top level of training partners. And that they can have the top level of support while here.

Pingu 1st off, i dont do boxing anymore and dont have an agenda, i do mma, did i say i (mma) should get funding? get off your high horse and stop jumping to conclusions.

i train judo in swords so whats your point? people pay a fair sum to partake in it, the coaches get a few quid to do what they want and fair play,the pints thing is just tongue in cheek! the clubs get judo mats on a regular basis,
and to answer the question AGAIN.
1. success proves that the effort is been put in.
2, keeping people off the streets and out of trouble is valid, so its not 1 or the other its both and lots more reasons too..

also i said on numerous occasions that i'd like to see all funded, your just reading the bits that suit you.

Burnt · 15-09-2008 01:51PM

judomick wrote: »

how much?

50K this year, to the IJA that doesn't include funds directly allocated to clubs

Judomad · 15-09-2008 01:52PM

judomick wrote: »

how much?

i've been to ija agm's and it is a whole lot LESS than people may think, and with the creation of Judo Ireland a few years ago it halfed that amount because even though at the time the IJA was MUCH bigger than JI the government seen that it was two associations for the one sport therefore split it 50/50, in fairness though, this year is the first year in the last 3 or 4 years that good young talent(Ian Byrne, Llyod Manning to mention a few) have been consistently being sent to top internationals, lisa kearney was well funded 2 years ago and was the first ever irish person to win an A standard tournament so hopefully more funding for these young talented judoka improves on a consistant basis.....

Clive · 15-09-2008 01:53PM

The money allocated for High Performance athletes should be targeted at those who are competing and winning at the highest level, and to bring those with the potential to that level. That's what the Sport's Council do - if they had more money for High Performance sport, they could do more, but they don't.

The money for NGBs should, of course be split according to the numbers of people involved in each sport and should be focused on developing sport for all. Kids, adults, men, women, recreational trainers and dedicated athletes.

They are very different things and should be kept separate.

Judomad · 15-09-2008 01:55PM

Burnt wrote: »

50K this year, to the IJA that doesn't include funds directly allocated to clubs

can you send me the link to your info please as a matter of interest, thanks.

Pingu · 15-09-2008 01:59PM

Pingu 1st off, i dont do boxing anymore and dont have an agenda, i do mma, did i say i (mma) should get funding? get off your high horse and stop jumping to conclusions.

Ah yes I'm the one on a high horse, calling sports yuppie sports and what not. No you didn't say mma should get funding, what's your point there?

But it would seem you do have an agenda

i,ve coached boxing for amateur boxers for many years, through this i never made a cent! my club train 5 nights a week

My point regading any sport is that the coaches are there week in week out for a love of the sport first and foremost, everything else comes second.

But what I don't buy is your:

they should put more into boxing as its ran as non profit by all amateur clubs and is generally a very irish sport also and always our best chance of medals, most martial arts clubs are making profit so dont deserve the funding as much imo

In all honesty alot/most sports could probably do with more funding, and putting more in Judo & TKD is a step in the right direction for all "minority" sports and should be applauded as such.

Burnt · 15-09-2008 01:59PM

can you send me the link to your info please as a matter of interest, thanks.

http://193.178.1.186/pdfs/08allocationswebformat.pdf

Nothingcompares · 15-09-2008 02:06PM

The document Brunt links to above explains the break down of Dept of Sport/IRish Sports Council/Lotto Sports Capital Programme. This I understand is funding aimed at building new training centres, improving facilites and buying equipment. It's not related to the scholarships and grants received by individuals in the particular sports nor is it concerned with other funding aimed at providing coaching or paying the electricity bill.

As a matter of interest, within the Dublin area only Irish amateur boxing received 375000 for 2007 and 2008 and Judo received 120000. Furthermore the funding was directly to the association for Judo (and thus may be used for clubs outside Dublin I'd imagine) and to the individual clubs in case of boxing (Neilstown ABC recevied 350000 in 2007. Presumably for a new club house....?

Judomad · 15-09-2008 02:10PM

Burnt wrote: »

http://193.178.1.186/pdfs/08allocationswebformat.pdf

thanks, shows the complete lack of funding towards Judo and other "minority" sports, GAA is funded unbelievably high, its actually a joke!!! Athletics got half a million and what medals did they produce??? if 10 times the amount of money was put into the development of irish judo you could greatly improve the chances of medalling in major comps..

Nothingcompares · 15-09-2008 02:19PM

Clive wrote: »

The money allocated for High Performance athletes should be targeted at those who are competing and winning at the highest level, and to bring those with the potential to that level. That's what the Sport's Council do - if they had more money for High Performance sport, they could do more, but they don't.

The money for NGBs should, of course be split according to the numbers of people involved in each sport and should be focused on developing sport for all. Kids, adults, men, women, recreational trainers and dedicated athletes.

They are very different things and should be kept separate.

The Irish carding scheme is the grant scheme which is given to high performance athletes from a youth stage to a developmental stage to world class (Darren Sutherland, Sonia O'Sullivan in her day). Currently, the Irish carding scheme has 41 Boxers and 0 Judo/TKD/Wrestling athletes. The carding scheme is concerned with providing expertise in sports science and medicine to athletes as well as advice and counseling on career and performance. The grant also aims to cover access to training facilities (think Irish boxers going abroad for training camps).

First off, I don't for a single second begrudge any one on this list from receiving financial aid and I fully presume they all deserve it. But I think this and the capital spending evidence go a long way to dispel the myth that the poor irish boxing paupers are not receiving grants.

Nothingcompares · 15-09-2008 02:24PM

Judomad wrote: »

thanks, shows the complete lack of funding towards Judo and other "minority" sports, GAA is funded unbelievably high, its actually a joke!!! Athletics got half a million and what medals did they produce??? if 10 times the amount of money was put into the development of irish judo you could greatly improve the chances of medalling in major comps..

Again just to reiterate my own interpretation. The Link there which you're referencing refers to funding aimed at facilities and capital - football pitches, club houses, changing rooms, stadiums (stadia?). Obviously a gaelic football club will need to spend money to have an adequate training centre, match pitch etc. compared to boxing / judo. I'm not disagreeing with you, just highlighting the difference.

Nothingcompares · 15-09-2008 02:29PM

Judomad wrote: »

i've been to ija agm's and it is a whole lot LESS than people may think, and with the creation of Judo Ireland a few years ago it halfed that amount because even though at the time the IJA was MUCH bigger than JI the government seen that it was two associations for the one sport therefore split it 50/50, in fairness though, this year is the first year in the last 3 or 4 years that good young talent(Ian Byrne, Llyod Manning to mention a few) have been consistently being sent to top internationals, lisa kearney was well funded 2 years ago and was the first ever irish person to win an A standard tournament so hopefully more funding for these young talented judoka improves on a consistant basis.....

So are you saying that Judo Ireland is equally recognised by the Irish government authorices (sports council etc.)? In fairness what I think is happening is the individual Judo Ireland clubs are applying directly for funding and are receiveing 2500 and 5000 grants for new mats etc. which the IJA clubs are being represented by the IJA. The funding goes to the IJA which they did disperse as they feel. I wonder if it would be in Swords Judo Club's interest to apply directly for grants (if in fact they actually need any).

Judomad · 15-09-2008 02:43PM

Nothingcompares wrote: »

So are you saying that Judo Ireland is equally recognised by the Irish government authorices (sports council etc.)? In fairness what I think is happening is the individual Judo Ireland clubs are applying directly for funding and are receiveing 2500 and 5000 grants for new mats etc. which the IJA clubs are being represented by the IJA. The funding goes to the IJA which they did disperse as they feel. I wonder if it would be in Swords Judo Club's interest to apply directly for grants (if in fact they actually need any).

you saying we're posh???:D;)
just jealous

but on a serious note the GAA are given the funding for big swanky club houses and pitches for every single club, my judo club train in a school, our mats get vandalised, if there is a school function on or even exams on we cant train, we stop in summer due to school being closed also!! VERY FEW judo clubs have there own place, galways school of judo and you lot in BJJR are the only two places as far as i know, Galway school of judo is run by the president of the IJA and you's have your place through MMA therefore what about all the other clubs???? if every GAA club get there own place why cant EVERY judo club have theres, even if half of the judo clubs in ireland had that would be a huge step...this wont happen though....

as for the carding scheme..................judo is overlooked nowadays..used to have a few on it but now...nothing!!!

cowzerp · 15-09-2008 02:43PM

So judo clubs get mats, what else do they need? genuine question.
they all seem well kitted out, not much is needed to teach most martial arts, usually a hall and mats do, boxing needs a ring, bags, safety gear-headguards etc. and a lot of the time mats too, this all has to come into account..

i was speaking to a person well up in the grants etc..and he told me straight out that they prefer to give out money to the non profit clubs, hence why im not entitled to anything..

the fact that most of the people here dont care if the clubs are for profit or not shocks me..there is a big difference, the profitable clubs could put the money back in if they choose.

Judomad wrote: »

if every GAA club get there own place why cant EVERY judo club have theres, even if half of the judo clubs in ireland had that would be a huge step...this wont happen though....

1 is for irish preservation, the other is a japanese sport. the irish government will always support there own heritage.
the japs would not fund gaa if you set up a club over there in fairness..

Judomad · 15-09-2008 02:47PM

Nothingcompares wrote: »

Again just to reiterate my own interpretation. The Link there which you're referencing refers to funding aimed at facilities and capital - football pitches, club houses, changing rooms, stadiums (stadia?). Obviously a gaelic football club will need to spend money to have an adequate training centre, match pitch etc. compared to boxing / judo. I'm not disagreeing with you, just highlighting the difference.

surely in that case most of these will be one offs then seen as this is 2008 list???? its not an easy one to work out, well not for my poor sore head anyway

Judomad · 15-09-2008 02:51PM

cowzerp wrote: »

So judo clubs get mats, what else do they need? genuine question.
they all seem well kitted out, not much is needed to teach most martial arts, usually a hall and mats do, boxing needs a ring, bags, safety gear-headguards etc. and a lot of the time mats too, this all has to come into account..

i was speaking to a person well up in the grants etc..and he told me straight out that they prefer to give out money to the non profit clubs, hence why im not entitled to anything..

the fact that most of the people here dont care if the clubs are for profit or not shocks me..there is a big difference, the profitable clubs could put the money back in if they choose.

Paul, who was that question to??
my gripe with the grants is the fact our young talent isn't sent to that many competitions, camps, etc.... i had to pay for myself to represent my country on a few occasions, went to training camps as part of the Irish Judo Team and paid for myself also, im not too sure but do the national boxing squad pay there way???

Burnt · 15-09-2008 02:55PM

It's my understanding that captial grants was all the funding the IJA recived this year. I can't find the actual report at the minute, but you can see a copy of the breakdown of funding at the bottom of the page in this link

http://www.irishcycling.com/publish/news/art_2795.shtml

you may notice that they are the only ngb to recieve no core grant, anyone care to speculate why?

Nothingcompares · 15-09-2008 02:59PM

cowzerp wrote: »

So judo clubs get mats, what else do they need? genuine question.

All you need for a judo club is a good sized room, tatame, perhaps a crash mat or wall covering. Other than that all you need is 15 people in Judogis.

All you need for a boxing club is a good sized room and a pair of boxing gloves and head gear. A boxing ring is a nice investment and I'd agree that a range of heavy bags, mitts, focus mitts etc. are important.

Are you actually trying to say that a boxing club requires a significantly more capital investment then a judo club? It's looks fair similar to me.

Pat Hickey suggests more funding...

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