Armed Gardai! Look out innocent people!!

Four-Too · 15-09-2008 02:52AM

Jeanxx wrote: »

I agree.
No armed Guard who has been properly trained is going to shoot someone for the craic or if they're not sure. That's ridiculous. Honestly some people watch too much television.

& if you are a Guard who wants to join an armed unit they have to seriously go through the mill to get in. Rigourous testing & such & they already have to have exemplery behaviour throughout their career as an unarmed Guard. They don't let any Joe Soap who wants to wield a gun in. Sure to get into the Reserves was a loooonnngg process & that's just the reserves.

Yes, they are trained very well to look after the elites and the government's interests. Yeah, they are properly trained to maim or attack the "right" people...US. They are trained up so so well just in case some innocent people might get their way and overcome the Gaurds.... and manage to hold onto what civil rights they have left and what is rightfully theirs, or get their justice.

SnowMonkey · 15-09-2008 03:06AM

Four-Too wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0904/1220372097767.html

Now they have set up an armed back-up force for the Gardai, which would be allowed to use deadly weapons. I think the country and it's populace is quite peaceful, the only ones in Irish society who would deserve to have armed Gardai on their tail are a few drug dealers who also carry weapons. But these drugies could be dealt with in other ways that the government hasn't bothered to do.
Bottom line, this is an attack on YOU! The ordinary Irish citizen, and your human rights if they should try anything. Police brutality is around the corner, and a policed state is here!

hey look across the pond for a second take london, perfect example. turkish, kurdish indian those areas are over flowing with heroin, in england there are more gangland shootings then you think, they need armed responce.

bristol saint pauls coucil estate is said to have more crack in there then anything else armed yardies patrol the street's, the police try to install cctv camers only to have the installer threatined with his life. They controll ther eown areas no cops go down these's streets.

Look at Ireland.

In ten years time where going to have a polish gang,s nigerin gang's we all ready do but we can't see it because we can;t speek the launedge's the fact of the matter eventully dublin will be come very similer to london officer's should be armed and just because the garda have a bad rep dont mean there all going to gun toting coppers runing around squeezing rounds of...

Drugs, fruad, armed robrey etc, are all allread happening.
I think its a good dession..

with the likes of crack becaoming availble street mugings will become huge, if you think heroin was bad we as a nation aint seen nothing yet. Id be hoping and praying that the garda really pull a rabit out of the hat or this country is going to have street gan violance at an all time high you think the last few years have been bad you wait and see mate you have no idae...

Bob the Builder · 15-09-2008 03:11AM

For the record, my brother got arrested wrongly by the same cop twice. Except in the second incident, the garda didn't realise there was cameras at the scene.

Was about to lodge a complaint with the ombudsman(i think thats the dude), but then they started picking on my other brother, so then for our own sake, he just didn't lodge the complaint in the end...

jesus_thats_gre · 15-09-2008 03:17AM

I know a few Gardai who are literally armed to the teeth. Every single one of them are about as level headed a person that you can get and I would far prefer to know that they exist for when they are needed.

Four-Too · 15-09-2008 03:26AM

SnowMonkey wrote: »

hey look across the pond for a second take london, perfect example. turkish, kurdish indian those areas are over flowing with heroin, in england there are more gangland shootings then you think, they need armed responce.

bristol saint pauls coucil estate is said to have more crack in there then anything else armed yardies patrol the street's, the police try to install cctv camers only to have the installer threatined with his life. They controll ther eown areas no cops go down these's streets.

Look at Ireland.

In ten years time where going to have a polish gang,s nigerin gang's we all ready do but we can't see it because we can;t speek the launedge's the fact of the matter eventully dublin will be come very similer to london officer's should be armed and just because the garda have a bad rep dont mean there all going to gun toting coppers runing around squeezing rounds of...

Drugs, fruad, armed robrey etc, are all allread happening.
I think its a good dession..

with the likes of crack becaoming availble street mugings will become huge, if you think heroin was bad we as a nation aint seen nothing yet. Id be hoping and praying that the garda really pull a rabit out of the hat or this country is going to have street gan violance at an all time high you think the last few years have been bad you wait and see mate you have no idae...

Hi, I totally believe you, you have a great picture of the future, OUR future - which matters. I'm saddened greatly by reading your post....but we need to do something to help other people, it doesn't have to turn out like that, I know it and you know it. Why have to start asking questions..we have to start gettting angry, really angry. Why are Poles and Latvians and Nigerians let into our country illegaly every day? Their crimes are going to be a great excuse to bring in armed cops, sadly. But we have to come to understandings, all of us, in the future, and we must unite and look out for each other, and I mean blacks, Poles and native Irish looking out for one another. Sounds a bit fairytailish

Dragan · 15-09-2008 09:45AM

Four-Too wrote: »

Bottom line, this is an attack on YOU! The ordinary Irish citizen, and your human rights if they should try anything. Police brutality is around the corner, and a policed state is here!

Personally i support arming certain parts of our police force.

In other words, i hate seeing people post as if they know what i want.

milod · 15-09-2008 11:06AM

SnowMonkey wrote: »

In ten years time where going to have a polish gang,s nigerin gang's we all ready do but we can't see it because we can;t speek the launedge's....

Class, absolute f**kin' class!

You meant this ironically right?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 15-09-2008 11:13AM

milod wrote: »

Class, absolute f**kin' class!

You meant this ironically right?

I wouldn't be so sure, judgeing by the rest of his post.

Run_to_da_hills · 15-09-2008 11:19AM

About ten years ago my younger brother was out drinking in south Dublin, he had an empty 3.3 shell in his pocket, something that anyone can buy in an army surplus store. His jacket was robbed along with his driving license. The drunken Idiot that robbed it spooked and handed the jacket into the cops. At about two in the morning ten armed branch cops arrived and almost kicked the door down at his flat.

They had a warrent to search the house on suspicion of him being involved in a "terrorist organisation". The Cops recovered a bb gun, a catapult and a decommissioned shot gun that belonged to my grand father. He was released without charge but the guy that reported him was subsequently arrested for being drunk and disorderly and swiping his jacket. This case could have easily gone sour.

I can see the need for armed cops in this country but they will have to thread very carefully and think before they do anything stupid. I would be more in favor for the use of non lethal weapons such as tazer guns. We don't won’t to see any “de Menezes” cases in this country.

Hanley · 15-09-2008 11:42AM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

About ten years ago my younger brother was out drinking in south Dublin, he had an empty 3.3 shell in his pocket, something that anyone can buy in an army surplus store. His jacket was robbed along with his driving license. The drunken Idiot that robbed it spooked and handed the jacket into the cops. At about two in the morning ten armed branch cops arrived and almost kicked the door down at his flat.

They had a warrent to search the house on suspicion of him being involved in a "terrorist organisation". The Cops recovered a bb gun, a catapult and a decommissioned shot gun that belonged to my grand father. He was released without charge but the guy that reported him was subsequently arrested for being drunk and disorderly and swiping his jacket. This case could have easily gone sour.

I san see the need for armed cops in this country but they will have to thread very carefully and think before they do anything stupid. I would be more in favor for the use of non lethal weapons such as tazer guns. We don't won’t to see any “de Menezes” cases in this country.

It COULD have but it didn't. The Gardai reacted in an appropriate manner in my opinion.... imgaine the outrage if nothing was done and your brother had an arsenal in his bedroom and went on a rampage??

In the end they did the right thing.... arresting the drunken idiot and leaving your brother be after checking him out.

They did the right thing and they're being criticised here for it?? Doesn't make any sense to me. I wouldn't expect an unarmed garda to go checking out someone who was found with a bullet shell on them, would you?? Even it was only military memorabilia, there's other things that he could have had that may have been dangerous.

Seriously, are you giving out about the Gardai's conduct here??

Dragan · 15-09-2008 11:55AM

Hanley wrote: »

Seriously, are you giving out about the Gardai's conduct here??

Irregardless of how the Gardai conducted themselves in this case they would always have been wrong simply because it was the posters brother.

CiaranC · 15-09-2008 12:07PM

This thread and all of AH makes me want to cry. When did the young generation turn into conservative Daily Mirror/Liveline soundalikes?

We are one of the last democracies in the Western world without an armed general police force. Our crime figures are low. To read this thread, you would think we are living in South Africa or something. The mind boggles.

thelordofcheese · 15-09-2008 12:11PM

SnowMonkey wrote: »

hey look across the pond for a second take london, perfect example. turkish, kurdish indian those areas are over flowing with heroin, in england there are more gangland shootings then you think, they need armed responce.

bristol saint pauls coucil estate is said to have more crack in there then anything else armed yardies patrol the street's, the police try to install cctv camers only to have the installer threatined with his life. They controll ther eown areas no cops go down these's streets.

Look at Ireland.

In ten years time where going to have a polish gang,s nigerin gang's we all ready do but we can't see it because we can;t speek the launedge's the fact of the matter eventully dublin will be come very similer to london officer's should be armed and just because the garda have a bad rep dont mean there all going to gun toting coppers runing around squeezing rounds of...

Drugs, fruad, armed robrey etc, are all allread happening.
I think its a good dession..

with the likes of crack becaoming availble street mugings will become huge, if you think heroin was bad we as a nation aint seen nothing yet. Id be hoping and praying that the garda really pull a rabit out of the hat or this country is going to have street gan violance at an all time high you think the last few years have been bad you wait and see mate you have no idae...

Your poorly spelt slippery slope argument has made me smile.
Thank you.

Run_to_da_hills · 15-09-2008 01:44PM

Hanley wrote: »

It COULD have but it didn't. The Gardai reacted in an appropriate manner in my opinion.... imgaine the outrage if nothing was done and your brother had an arsenal in his bedroom and went on a rampage??

In the end they did the right thing.... arresting the drunken idiot and leaving your brother be after checking him out.

They did the right thing and they're being criticised here for it?? Doesn't make any sense to me. I wouldn't expect an unarmed garda to go checking out someone who was found with a bullet shell on them, would you?? Even it was only military memorabilia, there's other things that he could have had that may have been dangerous.

Seriously, are you giving out about the Gardai's conduct here??

So being in the possession of a legally held empty bullet shell and taking the word of some drunken thief gives the guards the right to barge into someones flat an hour later. This is over reaction and the very type of carry on that one would expect to find in a police state.

Dragan · 15-09-2008 01:54PM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

So being in the possession of a legally held empty bullet shell and taking the word of some drunken thief gives the guards the right to barge into someones flat an hour later. This is over reaction and the very type of carry on that one would expect to find in a police state.

Removing the powder from a bullet is not a difficult thing to do. In fact, certain groups of people make a good living from moving live ammo as being dead when all they have done is remove the powder but the firing primer is still intact.

As such, if a bullet showed up then yes, I would ****ing dearly hope the Gardai would take to steps to ensure the person who had it was not a ****.

Finally, unless they have gone the Psychic route I fail to see how the cops would know the bullet was legally acquired.

If it was me I would be telling my brother to stop walking around with something that looks so bad in his pocket.

monument · 15-09-2008 02:48PM

Dragan wrote: »

Irregardless of how the Gardai conducted themselves in this case they would always have been wrong simply because it was the posters brother.

That stinks of a mentality that people can't complain about when they think family members have been wronged simply because they are family members??? That's a "police can't do wrong" or a "it's war, there will be collateral damage" point-of-view. The laws of western states are mainly based on the idea it's “Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer.” This concept extends to policing.

Anyway, lets not just take one person's case where his brother was wronged...

While there are loads of cases where there is no complaint made etc, we don't even know the full picture of the cases settled by the Department of Justice. And while this is to protect the victims, it also protects the officers. See here.From the article, in direct relation to searches of premises...

Unlawful or unauthorised searches of premises and properties also proved incredibly costly for the Exchequer with a series of payments made, the largest of which was €315,000.

And even if you were amoral, the links shows €14.7m was paid out last year for Garda abuse. That's your tax money (even if you are only paying vat on products you buy).

Dragan · 15-09-2008 02:57PM

monument wrote: »

That stinks of a mentality that people can't complain about when they think family members have been wronged simply because they are family members??? That's a "police can't do wrong" or a "it's war, there will be collateral damage" point-of-view. The laws of western states are mainly based on the idea it's “Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer.” This concept extends to policing..

Awesome, i was however talking about the posters brother situation, nothing else.

If you can give me a valid reason why the Gardai should have left him alone then please post it.

Nowhere did i say the Gardai can do no wrong either.

Finally, while i agree in large with your post when applied to the bigger picture please don't seek to tell me what my point of view is.

getz · 15-09-2008 03:13PM

every year i come over to ireland on holiday--all of the police i have come into contact with have been very friendly - if the terrorists kick off {not irish ] you will be glad they have guns .do not think ireland is free from it because the security services know of islamic cells that have been set up in the republic

monument · 15-09-2008 03:29PM

Dragan wrote: »

Awesome, i was however talking about the posters brother situation, nothing else.

A large number of cases of Garda wrongdoings is very much so relevant. It shows his case is not just a once off. Again:

Unlawful or unauthorised searches of premises and properties also proved incredibly costly for the Exchequer with a series of payments made, the largest of which was €315,000

This shows systematic or near to systematic problems. It such case it shoud not be a leap of fate to view Run_to_da_hills' criticisms of the Garda at face value.

Dragan wrote: »

If you can give me a valid reason why the Gardai should have left him alone then please post it.

I never said such. And I even think Run_to_da_hills' point centred on the garda overreaction, rather than the fact they had taken action at all.

Dragan wrote: »

Nowhere did i say the Gardai can do no wrong either.

Finally, while i agree in large with your post when applied to the bigger picture please don't seek to tell me what my point of view is.

I never said you said that the Gardai can't do wrong, nor did I tell you what your point of view was. I said:

That stinks of a mentality that people can't complain about when they think family members have been wronged simply because they are family members??? That's a "police can't do wrong" or a "it's war, there will be collateral damage" point-of-view. The laws of western states are mainly based on the idea it's “Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer.” This concept extends to policing.

Your post -- intended or not -- was an inverted absolute defence. Why? Because you were saying that "simply" because it was his family member who was claimed to be wronged, the police "would always have been wrong".

It wasn't me! · 15-09-2008 03:30PM

I don't much give a hoot whether the Gardai are armed; it should be their own choice. However, this "erosion of civil liberties" **** that's so regularly spewed needs to stop. Any and all civil liberties you may lay claim to can exist only because of the protection of a police service, who do a fantastic job for the most part, and who don't receive any thanks from most people. To the person saying what an outrage it was that his brother had a visit as a result of carrying brass around, what the hell kind of response do you expect? I do plenty of shooting myself, and a while ago, I was making a delivery and was taking out change for a customer, and there were a couple of spent .22lr shells in my pocket (I'd been shooting pistol beforehand - the stuff goes everywhere) and the customer's eyes went straight to them and they were obviously uncomfortable. The police exist to keep people as comfortable as possible, so when something like that comes to light, of course you expect them to do something. If they'd left him alone, I'd be raising my eyebrows, frankly. So perhaps people should shut up and appreciate the work the police do to keep you safe and comfortable, rather than badmouthing them?

thelordofcheese · 15-09-2008 03:33PM

getz wrote: »

every year i come over to ireland on holiday--all of the police i have come into contact with have been very friendly - if the terrorists kick off {not irish ] you will be glad they have guns .do not think ireland is free from it because the security services know of islamic cells that have been set up in the republic

Don't talk rubbish.

Dragan · 15-09-2008 03:46PM

monument wrote: »

Your post -- intended or not -- was an inverted absolute defence. Why? Because you were saying that "simply" because it was his family member who was claimed to be wronged, the police "would always have been wrong".

Okay, but here is my issue, where is the overreaction? There are pretty basic rules around going into a residence with a possible armed person inside.

The guards had a bullet ( may or may not have primer intact ), that would indicate there may be more.

As such they showed up, looked around, found somethings and went away.

How would we have preferred they deal with it? Ignore the bullet?

And yes, based on the poster posting history i stand by the fact that the real issue here was that the gardai were there at all, and that it was his brother.

monument · 15-09-2008 03:57PM

It wasn't me! wrote: »

I don't much give a hoot whether the Gardai are armed; it should be their own choice. However, this "erosion of civil liberties" **** that's so regularly spewed needs to stop. Any and all civil liberties you may lay claim to can exist only because of the protection of a police service, who do a fantastic job for the most part, and who don't receive any thanks from most people. To the person saying what an outrage it was that his brother had a visit as a result of carrying brass around, what the hell kind of response do you expect? I do plenty of shooting myself, and a while ago, I was making a delivery and was taking out change for a customer, and there were a couple of spent .22lr shells in my pocket (I'd been shooting pistol beforehand - the stuff goes everywhere) and the customer's eyes went straight to them and they were obviously uncomfortable. The police exist to keep people as comfortable as possible, so when something like that comes to light, of course you expect them to do something. If they'd left him alone, I'd be raising my eyebrows, frankly. So perhaps people should shut up and appreciate the work the police do to keep you safe and comfortable, rather than badmouthing them?

Rather then "badmouthing" or telling people or groups to "shut up", let's talk facts:

With over €14m paid out in compensation last year, compared to €2.3m in 2006, incidents of garda wrongdoing are on the increase at an enormous cost to taxpayers' pockets

Any and all civil liberties you may lay claim to can exist only because of the protection of a police service

Civil liberties exist because of a mixture of the Constitution, our laws and international law.

The police service are by far not the only protection of civil liberties. They are an element of our justice system which would not function without the other elements.

Even to say that the police are the "only" defenders of civil liberties is not only wrong on so many levels, it's a injustice to departments, agency, groups, and individuals who spend their life fighting for other people's or even their own civil liberties.

who do a fantastic job for the most part, and who don't receive any thanks from most people.

They do indeed do a great job for the most part (And for the record I have always thanked offices I've had to deal with).

But that's not a reason to turn a blind eye to their problems and wrongdoings.

monument · 15-09-2008 04:17PM

Dragan wrote: »

Okay, but here is my issue, where is the overreaction? There are pretty basic rules around going into a residence with a possible armed person inside.

The guards had a bullet ( may or may not have primer intact ), that would indicate there may be more.

As such they showed up, looked around, found somethings and went away.

How would we have preferred they deal with it? Ignore the bullet?

We're going into murky waters talking about this in great detail when the facts... but maybe a little old fashioned police work would not have went astray before a 2am raid?

found somethings

The "bb gun, a catapult and a decommissioned shot gun"? Why was are those worth mentioning again? Those items could hardly justify the raid.

And yes, based on the poster posting history i stand by the fact that the real issue here was that the gardai were there at all, and that it was his brother.

Posting history? In this thread or others?

And, btw, I think most right minded people would have a problem with police turning up at 2am to search their house and being accused of being involved in a terrorist organisation and them doing so on flimsy evidence.

humanji · 15-09-2008 04:22PM

With over €14m paid out in compensation last year, compared to €2.3m in 2006, incidents of garda wrongdoing are on the increase at an enormous cost to taxpayers' pockets

To be fair, that only proves that more cases are being reported. Nothing more.

And, btw, I think most right minded people would have a problem with police turning up at 2am to search their house and being accused of being involved in a terrorist organisation and them doing so on flimsy evidence.

Especially if they're terrorists!

monument · 15-09-2008 04:29PM

humanji wrote: »

To be fair, that only proves that more cases are being reported. Nothing more.

One way or another the amount of cases known about has risen.

Especially if they're terrorists!

:rolleyes:

So, you think terrorists are right minded people?

humanji · 15-09-2008 04:55PM

monument wrote: »

One way or another the amount of cases known about has risen.

So you admit that there could be less cases, but that there's just more than came to light?

monument wrote: »

:rolleyes:

So, you think terrorists are right minded people?

They are to their minds. It's all subjective.

Poccington · 15-09-2008 05:22PM

CiaranC wrote: »

This thread and all of AH makes me want to cry. When did the young generation turn into conservative Daily Mirror/Liveline soundalikes?

We are one of the last democracies in the Western world without an armed general police force. Our crime figures are low. To read this thread, you would think we are living in South Africa or something. The mind boggles.

We STILL don't have an armed general police force.

So your argument holds no weight.

Poccington · 15-09-2008 05:26PM

Four-Too wrote: »

Yes, they are trained very well to look after the elites and the government's interests. Yeah, they are properly trained to maim or attack the "right" people...US. They are trained up so so well just in case some innocent people might get their way and overcome the Gaurds.... and manage to hold onto what civil rights they have left and what is rightfully theirs, or get their justice.

Trained to look after the elites and governents interests?

No, they're trained to uphold the laws of this state.

m4j · 15-09-2008 05:36PM

Poccington wrote: »

The state has failed or society has failed? Absolute bull****.

Let's just a pick an area... We'll say Finglas, since I have first hand experience of it. The place is full of scumbags, I went to school with many of them and have grown up and lived in the same area as many of them. Somehow, I've managed to avoid criminal charges of any kind, addictions of any kind and I'm in a ridiculously good job. Now how did I do that but all those other folk didn't even though we started out in the exact same circumstances?

Society and the state didn't fail them, they failed themselves.

VERY WELL SAID, YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD> WELL DONE

Armed Gardai! Look out innocent people!!

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