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Golf mind games

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    #32
    One Cold Hand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭One Cold Hand


    Swinging Looney wrote: »
    If I asked him, with a look of mischief in my eye, how long his willy normally is first thing in the morning, there's a good chance I'll get the same result.

    Pfft. Amateur!!!;):D See you shouldn't ASK him. What I'd do would be whip out my willy, wave it in his general direction, and shout 'Beat that motherfooker!'. If that doesn't put him off, nothing will!


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    #33
    One Cold Hand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭One Cold Hand


    madds wrote: »
    Foursomes matchplay, and we were 1 down playing 17, a par 5. We were in for 5, and our opponents had a 25 foot putt from just off the back of the green. Opponent A elects to leave the flag in the hole and makes his stroke. As the ball approaches the hole, Opponent B takes the flag out. Immediately my partner and I look at each other both thinking the same thing, i.e. he can't do that. The hole is halved and as we walk to the next tee I tell my partner that we won't cause any upset by claiming the hole or anything but I didn't want to let it pass without making a comment.

    Common mistake. The flag can actually be attended and held even when the ball is off the green.

    17-1. Flagstick Attended, Removed or Held Up
    Before making a stroke from anywhere on the course, the player may have the flagstick attended, removed or held up to indicate the position of the hole.

    If the flagstick is not attended, removed or held up before the player makes a stroke, it must not be attended, removed or held up during the stroke or while the player’s ball is in motion if doing so might influence the movement of the ball.

    Note 1: If the flagstick is in the hole and anyone stands near it while a stroke is being made, he is deemed to be attending the flagstick.

    Note 2: If, prior to the stroke, the flagstick is attended, removed or held up by anyone with the player’s knowledge and he makes no objection, the player is deemed to have authorized it.

    Note 3: If anyone attends or holds up the flagstick while a stroke is being made, he is deemed to be attending the flagstick until the ball comes to rest.

    The key question here is was the player's partner attending the flag before the stroke, and if not, did his removing of the flagstick affect the movement of the ball? If not, then they were probably in the right.

    I wouldn't consider your questioning of the action to be mind games by the way, you were simply stating that you felt he broke the rules! For him to deny that he took it out seems ridiculous.

    Although this denial leads me (seamlessly!) onto another story that I just remembered. Two friends of my fathers (lets call them 'Jimmy' and 'Tommy') was playing a match against a well known chancer ('Paddy') and some other guy. It was a tight game and they got to the 15th (can't remember the exact score at this point, but it irrelelvant). Paddy hit his drive and he completely duffed it, and it hopped up and hit himself in the shin. He let out an audible grunt, and the ball bounced off in the opposite direction. The two lads, Jimmy and Tommy, just looked at each other and said, 'that's a two shot penalty, you just hit yourself.' The guy stopped massaging his shin and then claimed that it didn't hit him, at all. He just point blank refused to admit that it hit him. They stood on the tee for about 10 minute argueing. The lads were standing there saying 'come on Paddy, there was an audible thump when it hit you, you said Ow, and it hopped off in the opposite direction to where it had been going.' Eventually Paddy's partner stepped in and said 'Come on Paddy, I think it did hit you.'

    I just thought it was a hilarious story!


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    #34
    Swinging Looney
    Closed Accounts Posts: 217 ✭✭Swinging Looney


    One Cold Hand wrote: »
    Pfft. Amateur!!!;):D See you shouldn't ASK him. What I'd do would be whip out my willy, wave it in his general direction, and shout 'Beat that motherfooker!'. If that doesn't put him off, nothing will!

    :eek:

    I am indeed in the presence of greatness and astounding knowledge. I humbly request your forgiveness at making such an oversight and promise to forthwith ensure this method of distraction becomes a common technique I shall use in every match.

    Thank you.

    :D:D:D:D


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    #35
    ShriekingSheet
    Registered Users Posts: 3,476 ✭✭✭ShriekingSheet


    Swinging Looney wrote: »
    the idea of chatting to a normally quiet person, clamming up with a chatty bloke, rushing a slow player or slowing down a fast player, with the sole purpose of simply pissing him off or upsetting him that I don't like. ..

    Agreed - all b*llox that'll prob just end up distracting yourself from your own game inanyways!

    Good thread.


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    #36
    Swinging Looney
    Closed Accounts Posts: 217 ✭✭Swinging Looney


    I suppose I just feel that if I was given the choice of being:

    A) a pleasant, respectful, well mannered opponent who makes birdie when you make par, par when you make bogey and wins by a large amount

    or

    B) an ignorant, deceitful, unethical opponent who makes double bogey but puts you off enough to make a triple bogey, and wins by one shot

    I would undoubtedly want to be A. Both will have their name in lights at the end of the day, but I guess it is all about what your own personality is comfortable sleeping with.


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    #37
    PhilipMarlowe
    Subscribers Posts: 4,419 ✭✭✭PhilipMarlowe


    I played in the final of our club matchplay last year and was ahead after 9, not really from great golf, more from my opponent not starting well.... I told my opponent that he was too good of a golfer to be in this position and not to quit on the back nine, and that he had shots to get from me too...
    Off 10, he played the back 8 in even par to beat me on the 17th.

    I was still trying to beat him but was much happier loosing to better golf than winning to poor stuff. Using 'mind games' like some of the above shows a lack of class...
    I got a nice mention in his acceptance speech for sportsmanship which to me was more important than the title.... and when I notice the runners-up crystal in my house, this is what I remember.


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    #38
    Golferx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭Golferx


    Golf is a game of honour.

    How one interprets this says a lot about the person.


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    #39
    ShriekingSheet
    Registered Users Posts: 3,476 ✭✭✭ShriekingSheet


    Golferx wrote: »
    Golf is a game of honour.

    How one interprets this says a lot about the person.

    Honour and respect for your opponent are key elements of all the best sports.

    What we're talking about is no different from the treatment a corner forward gets from his marker in GAA. Or what happens when you're at the bottom of a ruck, forehead-to-forehead with Paul O'Connell.

    Like it or not, guys push to the limits of the rules and ettiquette and sometimes beyond in their sport to get an edge. This is the case at nearly all levels of sport.

    There are over-the-top examples such as diving in football or coughing at the top of someones backswing, but no one in this thread is condoning this kind of behaviour.


    If you don't hold that corner forwards jersey now and then, he's gonna walk all over you. And if he doesn't, you're either playing under 9's or you better tuck some yellow ribbons into those shorts quickly - cos it's tag rugby for you mate!


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    #40
    Adiaga 2
    Registered Users Posts: 1,052 ✭✭✭Adiaga 2


    Licksy wrote: »
    I played in the final of our club matchplay last year and was ahead after 9, not really from great golf, more from my opponent not starting well.... I told my opponent that he was too good of a golfer to be in this position and not to quit on the back nine, and that he had shots to get from me too...
    Off 10, he played the back 8 in even par to beat me on the 17th.

    I was still trying to beat him but was much happier loosing to better golf than winning to poor stuff. Using 'mind games' like some of the above shows a lack of class...
    I got a nice mention in his acceptance speech for sportsmanship which to me was more important than the title.... and when I notice the runners-up crystal in my house, this is what I remember.


    Thanks Licksy for restoring my faith in mankind. ;) Seriously, that was a nice thing you did especially in a matchplay final and good of your opponent to acknowedge it afterwards.


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    #41
    PhilipMarlowe
    Subscribers Posts: 4,419 ✭✭✭PhilipMarlowe


    ShriekingSheet wrote: »
    Like it or not, guys push to the limits of the rules and ettiquette and sometimes beyond in their sport to get an edge.
    In the vast majority of cases though, they are being refereed by an 'outsider'. In golf, pushing beyond the rules is called cheating ;)


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    #42
    Golferx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭Golferx


    ShriekingSheet wrote: »
    ..........
    What we're talking about is no different from the treatment a corner forward gets from his marker in GAA. Or what happens when you're at the bottom of a ruck, forehead-to-forehead with Paul O'Connell.

    ...................

    GAA is one of the least honourable sports, with rugby not far behind, neither of which can be or should be compared to Golf. Your comparisons do not hold in any way whatsoever.

    In Golf, one referees oneself. One only has to look at the antics of most sports when there is a neutral referee appointed to chaperone the participants.

    If one has to resort to side-tactics to win what is a game of skill, then one is obviously not good enough at playing the game.


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    #43
    ShriekingSheet
    Registered Users Posts: 3,476 ✭✭✭ShriekingSheet


    Golferx wrote: »
    GAA is one of the least honourable sports, with rugby not far behind, .

    More sweeping statements, more I say!!
    Golferx wrote: »
    If one has to resort to side-tactics to win what is a game of skill, then one is obviously not good enough at playing the game.

    As we've consistently said, we're talking about operating within the rules and ettiquette of the game.

    You seem to have taken it upon yourself to set a further standard of what's honourable and what's a deceiptful side-tactic, within those laws.

    The rules are laid out clearly. The points of ettiquette have stood for hundreds of years.

    Neither state that if an opponent marches confidently and quickly from green to tee that I need to do the same. Nowhere does it say that I can't take the flag out when chipping, even if it is just to send a message that I'm looking to hole everything. And it's not against the rules to be looking elsewhere while my opponent is putting.

    If you feel so strongly about it, I suggest you quickly report these dishonerable side-tactics to the R&A for the good of the sport, so that they may ammend the rulebook.

    Otherwise, I think one might be better off stating one's opinions as such.


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    #44
    One Cold Hand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭One Cold Hand


    Licksy wrote: »
    I played in the final of our club matchplay last year and was ahead after 9, not really from great golf, more from my opponent not starting well.... I told my opponent that he was too good of a golfer to be in this position and not to quit on the back nine, and that he had shots to get from me too...
    Off 10, he played the back 8 in even par to beat me on the 17th.

    I was still trying to beat him but was much happier loosing to better golf than winning to poor stuff. Using 'mind games' like some of the above shows a lack of class...
    I got a nice mention in his acceptance speech for sportsmanship which to me was more important than the title.... and when I notice the runners-up crystal in my house, this is what I remember.

    Fair play Licksy, that was a really nice thing to do. However, and I mean this in the nicest possible way, I personally would much rather win the match. I not suggesting you should have resorted to any kind of mind games, but I certainly wouldn't have been encouraging the guy. It's not as if you'd be classified as unsportsmanlike if you hadn't encouraged him, is it?

    Don't get me wrong, I really respect you for doing something like that, even more so I guess as I know I probably wouldn't have done it myself. If this says something about my personality then so be it!


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    #45
    One Cold Hand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭One Cold Hand


    Golferx wrote: »
    In Golf, one referees oneself. One only has to look at the antics of most sports when there is a neutral referee appointed to chaperone the participants.

    One may referee oneself in golf, but you always have 2/3 playing partners playing with you, marking your card and keeping an eye on you. If players were sent out one by one, marking their own card, I'd like to see the score that might come in. Wouldn't be as honourable then I would wager...


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    #46
    PhilipMarlowe
    Subscribers Posts: 4,419 ✭✭✭PhilipMarlowe


    I had previously beaten someone in an earlier round that was playing poorly and to be honest it was a non-event for me. In the semi I had a great match and won the 17th to take the game and at least it was a battle...
    Maybe I'll get more chances to win and maybe I won't but either way I'm glad that we had a good hard match. The fact that I wasn't able to keep with him on the day is secondary to me because I tried my best and he was better.


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    #47
    Gegerty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 900 ✭✭✭Gegerty


    I think a lot of you need to brush up on the rules of golf. If someone was talking obsessively to me I'd politely ask them to shut up, failure to do so while interrupting my game is simply against the rules of golf.

    Going slow to try and put a player off...also against the rules. In fact doing anything that interrupts the other players game is against the rules.

    The only mind game I can see on here within the rules is keeping quiet. Again, hardly a mind game the guy is just going to think you're just shy and quiet or else he's going to think you're a nob...hardly something thats going to give you an advantage.


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    #48
    madds
    Registered Users Posts: 1,883 ✭✭✭madds


    Gegerty wrote: »
    I think a lot of you need to brush up on the rules of golf.
    Going slow to try and put a player off...also against the rules. In fact doing anything that interrupts the other players game is against the rules.

    Where in the Rulers of Golf does it explicitly say you cannot try and get the upper hand in a match by influencing your opponents rhythm? Lads, I think we all need to get real here. Matchplay is matchplay. It's as much about being mentally tough as well as having your game in order.

    I've just started reading A Good Walk Spoiled by John Feinstein and the first chapter gives an account of David Love's feelings/experiences heading into and participating in the 1993 Ryder Cup at The Belfry. Knowing how big a part "mind games" played in that and subsequent Ryder Cups, I think those of you who see the mental aspect of matchplay having no part to play in golf shouldn't bother tuning into the coverage from Valhallah in 3 week's time in case you are shocked by what you see.


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    #49
    Gegerty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 900 ✭✭✭Gegerty


    Inteferring with a players game is against the rules. The mind games people are suggesting here are blatant inteferring with the game, with the exception of keeping quiet which I whole hartedly support!

    Mind games in the ryder cup happen off the course. In game build up and media interviews. If you want to antagonize your oppenent before the game has start then fair enough. Doing so during the game is against the rules and I'm not going to dig out a link to prove it its common knowledge.

    Play fair or get off the course and go and play a sport more suited to you.


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    #50
    Mr. Larson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,429 ✭✭✭Mr. Larson


    Licksy wrote: »
    I played in the final of our club matchplay last year and was ahead after 9, not really from great golf, more from my opponent not starting well.... I told my opponent that he was too good of a golfer to be in this position and not to quit on the back nine, and that he had shots to get from me too...
    Licksy wrote: »
    I had previously beaten someone in an earlier round that was playing poorly and to be honest it was a non-event for me. In the semi I had a great match and won the 17th to take the game and at least it was a battle...
    Maybe I'll get more chances to win and maybe I won't but either way I'm glad that we had a good hard match. The fact that I wasn't able to keep with him on the day is secondary to me because I tried my best and he was better.

    Your approach sounds like mine, Licksy... I recently played a 4 handicap golfer in a Club Matchplay quarter final. We chatted and joked all the way around and had a great tussle. I entered into the tournament off 19 after a horrendous start to the year (went up to 18.5) but I had only lasted there (19) for a few weeks - I'm now off 15 and should go lower, so it was always going to be tough for him, giving away 15 shots. My previous victories against low handicappers felt hollow as I'm never a 19 handicapper.

    I was 'up' from the 3rd to the 15th despite him knocking in a birdie and about 12 pars. He knocked about 90% of his putts absolutely stone dead from everywhere, off the green, on the green, ones with huge breaks, some with no breaks... There were about 3 putts he had for a ½ that were in the 4/5 foot range. I conceded all of them without hesitation. He had 'given' me a putt earlier that I didn't fancy and it was for a ½ - I even asked him if he was sure and he told me to pick it up. I could have chosen not to give those putts but I didn't and I don't regret it, who knows he may even have missed one. If I made him hole out a 4 footer and he knocked it in (as I felt he would have), I would feel the message going out would be that the gloves are off and he now has the psychological edge. It would almost be like I tried to wind him up but failed... so he has the edge now after knocking it in.

    He holed out from 115 yards for a par on the 14th (after O.B. off the tee) to get back to 1 down, went 1 up on the 16th and won the 17th to win the match... he played savage golf and I'm glad he won because he totally deserved it. I told him that too. No regrets. People will point to the fact that the posters who didn't engage in mind games or were overly generous, lost their matches and there's probably something in that. But I wouldn't play it any other way... it just wouldn't mean that much to me.


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    #51
    madds
    Registered Users Posts: 1,883 ✭✭✭madds


    Gegerty wrote: »
    The mind games people are suggesting here are blatant inteferring with the game

    Examples please.
    Gegerty wrote: »
    Mind games in the ryder cup happen off the course. In game build up and media interviews.

    Incorrect. One example, Tom Kite had a 2 foot putt in Kiawah Island back in '91 when playing against Seve and Ollie. Seve let Kite mark the ball down, replace it, and then line up the putt, before he said "That's good Tom". Seve didn't interfere with Kite's game, but you can bet that delayed concession got under Kite's skin a little.
    Play fair or get off the course and go and play a sport more suited to you.

    You are missing the point. People who are "supporters" of mind games are playing fair. We are not cheating or bending the rules, and do not set out to do so. I've been playing this game for 20 years and have always played fair, so I think I'll continue playing it if that's alright with you.


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    #52
    ShriekingSheet
    Registered Users Posts: 3,476 ✭✭✭ShriekingSheet


    I think this has been one of the best threads in a long time with interesting arguments from both sides.

    I've maintained that there are tactics within the rules that are used at all levels and if you think they don't exist, or don't like it when someone drops in the odd nudge, you're at a disadvantage.

    That said, all this comes with experience and, more so, experience of interclub matchplay. My point being that an inexperienced matchplayer reading this and thinking they can get an advantage using some of the mentioned tactics is, IMO, more likely to distract themselves from playing their own game well.

    What I'd say is something like... Step 1 - play a few matches and get a general idea of how it goes. Step 2 - learn to block out any attempts by the other player to put you off. Step 3 - develop your own approach to matchplay that works for you, which may or may not include any kind of mind games.


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    #53
    kingshankly
    Registered Users Posts: 7,531 ✭✭✭kingshankly


    Have to agree with an earlier comment that gamesmanship has no place in golf golf should be about friendship
    Gamesmanship experts hurt themselves just focus on your own game and stick to your routine and plan


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    #54
    Golferx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭Golferx


    madds wrote: »
    Examples please.



    Incorrect. One example, Tom Kite had a 2 foot putt in Kiawah Island back in '91 when playing against Seve and Ollie. Seve let Kite mark the ball down, replace it, and then line up the putt, before he said "That's good Tom". Seve didn't interfere with Kite's game, but you can bet that delayed concession got under Kite's skin a little.

    ................

    As a European Team supporter, Seve's conduct in Matchplay was embarrassing. Anyone remember Seve's last appearance as player, against Tom Lehmann? His conduct was deplorable.

    His antics as manager were not much better. The team won in spite of him, not because of him.


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    #55
    ShriekingSheet
    Registered Users Posts: 3,476 ✭✭✭ShriekingSheet


    Golferx wrote: »
    As a European Team supporter, Seve's conduct in Matchplay was embarrassing. Anyone remember Seve's last appearance as player, against Tom Lehmann? His conduct was deplorable.
    .

    that's the third monacle you've broken this week...
    you simply must stop being so horrified!


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    #56
    Mister Sifter
    Registered Users Posts: 3,798 ✭✭✭Mister Sifter


    I'm all for a bit of gamesmanship, as long as it doesn't cross the line. Any advantage in matchplay should be seized upon.

    That said, there is no better way to demoralise or annoy an opponent than by rolling in putts and hitting good shots!


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    #57
    One Cold Hand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭One Cold Hand


    ShriekingSheet wrote: »
    I think this has been one of the best threads in a long time with interesting arguments from both sides.

    I've maintained that there are tactics within the rules that are used at all levels and if you think they don't exist, or don't like it when someone drops in the odd nudge, you're at a disadvantage.

    That said, all this comes with experience and, more so, experience of interclub matchplay. My point being that an inexperienced matchplayer reading this and thinking they can get an advantage using some of the mentioned tactics is, IMO, more likely to distract themselves from playing their own game well.

    What I'd say is something like... Step 1 - play a few matches and get a general idea of how it goes. Step 2 - learn to block out any attempts by the other player to put you off. Step 3 - develop your own approach to matchplay that works for you, which may or may not include any kind of mind games.

    Good post SS.
    The point is that with experince you just do little things that come as second nature. Some people seem to think that it's distracting to your own game, but it's not.

    I know I'm probably going to get killed for asking this, but would it be true that most of the people who are 'against' mindgames, have not played in many serious interclub matches? Maybe I'm wrong, but would be interested to see if this is true or not...


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    #58
    PhilipMarlowe
    Subscribers Posts: 4,419 ✭✭✭PhilipMarlowe


    I've played and caddied in my share of inter-club matches.... I've seen a 6 inch putt not conceded and in my opinion all it served to do was motivate our team even further. If someone is 'trying it on' to some extent, that would be my natural reaction... it would cure one of my main faults and make me actually concentrate :)


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    #59
    ShriekingSheet
    Registered Users Posts: 3,476 ✭✭✭ShriekingSheet


    Licksy wrote: »
    I've played and caddied in my share of inter-club matches.... I've seen a 6 inch putt not conceded and in my opinion all it served to do was motivate our team even further. If someone is 'trying it on' to some extent, that would be my natural reaction... it would cure one of my main faults and make me actually concentrate :)

    Fair enough Licksy, but not conceding a 6 inch putt is a crap example. It's just being a knob and as you say, it only served to pump you up.

    I think not conceding very short putts is ridiculous but I'll put this to you - when he didn't give the putt, what happened? I'd bet my (future) house that there was eyes-to-heaven or a surprised, disgruntled look on the face of your team, possibly in the direction of the opponent? Possibly a delayed trudge over to the putt and a "tsk!" as you knock the ball in?
    Ok, I'm exagurating but you know what I mean. Sufice to say, in most cases there'd be a noticable negative reaction among the group to such a silly move.

    Two points I'd make...

    Firstly, one man's motivation could be another's irritant so while you were affected in a positive way, many might get peeved and play worse. Better little tactics (than not giving short putts) have a lesser chance of acting as a motivation.

    And secondly, if someone didn't give me a 6 inch putt, as soon as there was a second of silence I'd be over knocking the ball off the back of the hole and bouncing on to the next tee as if nothing happened. On the next hole if I left a 15ft putt a few inches away I'd be quickly after the ball and, (as if in strokeplay and so people watching can hear) might say "I'll finish if you don't mind" before he can either give it or leave enough silence to let me know he's not giving it. Chances are, especially with a watching crowd, he'll interupt with something like "oh no, that's good". All the while I'd continue to give all putts within 3 feet to him.
    Two things are achieved here. 1 - he's embarassed for trying such a silly thing and 2 - he is now fully aware that you are completely on your own buzz, indifferent to any attempts by him to shake you.

    See what I'm getting at?

    The 6 inch putt thing is ridiculous and, as I said, a crap example of mind games. But the second part is the kind of little tactic that works for me. Yes, it could have very little affect but in a game where people worry about 0.5 degrees of loft, lazer range finders and the difference between a ProV1 and ProV1x, I'd argue that every little advantage is worthwhile.


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    #60
    Obni
    Registered Users Posts: 424 ✭✭Obni


    If an opponent doesn't give you a putt in matchplay, then just stroll up and knock it in. If it's not a putt that you can just knock in, then they are right not to give it to you.

    I have a policy of giving reasonable putts for a half (maybe 2ft if flat), but I wouldn't give anything over 12" for a win. Make the buggers sweat if they want to beat you, and if the putt is insultingly short then it shouldn't bother them to putt out. If they miss a short putt, then you were right not to give it, and I wouldn't give them putts over 4" for the rest of the round.

    If you maintain that the other player should have to earn their victory, then when you're asked to putt out from 12" you can apply the same standards to yourself ("I have to earn this point!") without taking a blow to your ego.


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    #61
    ShriekingSheet
    Registered Users Posts: 3,476 ✭✭✭ShriekingSheet


    Obni wrote: »
    I wouldn't give anything over 12" for a win. Make the buggers sweat if they want to beat you, and if the putt is insultingly short then it shouldn't bother them to putt out.

    I think both sides of the argument on this thread would disagree with you there.
    I certainly do.

    And as Licksy said (and I'd agree), by doing that you've succesfully motivated your opponent to beat this spa who kept makin' me hole out tap-ins.


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