Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
If we do not hit our goal we will be forced to close the site.

Current status: https://keepboardsalive.com/

Annual subs are best for most impact. If you are still undecided on going Ad Free - you can also donate using the Paypal Donate option. All contribution helps. Thank you.

Christianity or Islam? Which one to believe?

124»

Comments

  • #92
    Schuhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,835 ✭✭✭Schuhart


    Bduffman wrote: »
    Which is why the most likely explanation is that the NT was fabricated. After all, if you know what the prophesies are, all you have to do is write a story matching them exactly - yes?
    That certainly is the most likely explanation. And, given that the Quran substantially agrees with the broad thrust of the Gospel account, the most likely explanation for it is that it is fabricated as well.

    This strikes me as a key problem for the Quran. If we accept the NT is fabricated, then the Quran has to be hit by the aftershock. On the other hand, if we accept the NT as substantially true, that equally seems to wipe the Quran - as why would we need a 'corrected' account if the one we had was adequate?

    I think its also important to recall exactly how the Quran seeks to unseat the Jesus figure. A logical statement like 'why would God need a son' seems more rational than the rather fatuous account actually in the text. We might equally ask 'why would God need to create a Universe if he's already perfect'. I'm not in a mood to ascribe to a religion the rational doubts that atheists bring to the debate.

    Judaism has a perfectly logical position. If Jesus was never the Messiah, then he just doesn't feature as he can simply be dismissed as a fraud and we need take no further interest in him. The Quran, on the other hand, invites us to accept that everyone would have seen him die on the cross and have had no reason to believe otherwise until over 600 years later when Mohammed is told it was only a body double.

    I think this is important to consider for a moment, as its hard to see what the Quran is stating to be a corruption in the Gospel text on this particular point. It actually seems to be confirming that the Gospel accurately records what someone would have seen on the day. Ditto with the virgin birth - which suggests Jesus isn't just another 'Son of God' like any other human. Adam is parentless, but is created by God breathing life into clay. Jesus seems unique (I'm open to factual contradiction on this point) as the only human in the Quran born to a virgin mother. Hence, the contention that the Quran says he's just another prophet does not seem to catch the essential incoherence of the Quran about who or what Jesus was.

    The claims of Christianity are claims we can investigate and find flaws in. But, to my mind, the Quran does not offer us anything to add to that investigation.


  • #93
    Schuhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,835 ✭✭✭Schuhart


    PDN wrote: »
    The claim that the NT was fabricated? I don't see any evidence for such a claim, that's why I'm asking for it. :confused:
    Can I say I have no evidence that the NT was fabricated. All I'm operating on is the idea that extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence, coupled with an awareness that human minds do add to stories. I can recall reading something about the Cargo Cults (unfortunately, I've no reference for this as it was a while ago) where they say that, while the cults are only a relatively recent phenomenon, no-one actually knows if the 'John Frum' figure at their centre is a real person, or based on some real person. And that's events in the modern world - how much more difficult is it to account for events two thousand years ago?


  • #94
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    PDN wrote: »
    The claim that the NT was fabricated? I don't see any evidence for such a claim, that's why I'm asking for it. :confused:

    No, I mean theoretically, what would convince you that say Jesus wasn't born in Bethlehem?

    What is conceivable evidence that would make you go "Oh, he wasn't born there. Ok, he wasn't the Messiah, he was just pretending to be"


  • #95
    wasper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 419 ✭✭wasper


    PDN wrote: »
    Actually there are many variant readings in copies of the Quran. Have you ever heard of the Satanic Verses? These were a part of the Quran where supposedly Mohammed was deceived by Satan to teach that there were some godesses - but they were later removed. http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_Verses

    The Satanic verses is a work of fiction. Salman Rushdie said it himself. So how do you make it an authority on Islam & the Koran!


  • #96
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    wasper wrote: »
    The Satanic verses is a work of fiction. Salman Rushdie said it himself. So how do you make it an authority on Islam & the Koran!

    I think you're a bit confused. Salman Rushdie's novel is, of course, fictional. However, the title is taken from some verses that were supposedly originally part of the Koran but were later edited out by Mohammed. The story of the Satanic Verses precedes Salman Rushdie by over a thousand years.


  • Advertisement
  • #97
    Asiaprod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭Asiaprod


    wasper wrote: »
    The Satanic verses is a work of fiction. Salman Rushdie said it himself. So how do you make it an authority on Islam & the Koran!

    Tis true Salman Rushdie did not invent the Satanic verses. His controversial book is a work of fiction that is based on a real event. Just for the record.
    When Muhammad and his community came under severe persecution, eighty-three of his followers who had no protection emigrated from Mecca to Ethiopia, taking refuge in the ancient Christian country, Abyssinia.1 Under increasing boycotts and pressure, Muhammad went through a time of weakness and compromised with the Meccan pagans by acknowledging the existence of three pagan goddesses alongside Allah: Lat, Uzza, and Manat.2 The Arabian goddesses are mentioned in Sura an-Najm (Star) 53:19-22.

    In Sura Hajj (Pilgrimage) 22:52-53, Muhammad confessed his mistake, alleging that all prophets were tempted by Satan who inspire them with demonic verses, as if they were actually revealed by God. But later on Allah abrogated those Satanic Verses with new revelations and instructs his prophets with new verses. According to Islam, Allah permits such demonic inspiration to test weak believers and to cut off those with hardened hearts.
    muhammadanism.org
    http://www.muhammadanism.org/quran/SatanicVerses.htm


  • #98
    Schuhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,835 ✭✭✭Schuhart


    Just a point of detail - that link to the wikipedia entry for Satanic Verses is not working. Hence, in fairness, wasper may not have had access to the information provided in support of the statement. (Incidentally, I think that entry is worth reading subject to the usual wikipedia health warning. I actually didn't realise how initimately the legend is tied in to the Quran.)

    The correct reference is to here.


  • #99
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    hunnybunny wrote: »
    When comparing the bible and the Quran, something that hits me is that the Quran has never been changed since it was written. And it was written directly by Mohommed himself. Muslims are encouraged to read it and understand it for themselves. The Koran is also younger and when translated into English , it reads in a way I can easily understand.
    Well Mohammed preached peace and tolerance but in his own life he led 26 military campaigns to force people to accept his religion. Jesus never took up the sword. When they went out to preach, he told them to shake the dust off their feet if the town rejected their message, rather than forcing it on them.


  • #100
    ChocolateSauce
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭ChocolateSauce


    If I had to choose between the two, I'd choose Islam. It is closer to being objectively correct.

    For one, Mohammad, unlike Jesus, is a real historical figure. Jesus as we know him is a legend based around a man who almost certainly wasn't like we have been told. Mohammad on the other hand was chronicled in life by both Muslims and non-Muslims alike. He had a long line of descendants, and we know a great deal about his friends. Abu Bakir, for example, was his best friend and the first Caliph. On the other hand, we don't even know how the 12 disciples died.

    For two, the bible is full of internal contradictions, whereas the Koran is not. The Koran delivers a much clearer message. This is a powerful aid that Islam has, and gives it an edge over Christianity. Islam is also less fragmented than Christianity. Yes, there are branches, but no where near as many as with Christianity, and the differences are pettier.


  • #101
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    Care to support your statement with some evidence?


  • Advertisement
  • #102
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Húrin wrote: »
    Well Mohammed preached peace and tolerance but in his own life he led 26 military campaigns to force people to accept his religion. Jesus never took up the sword. When they went out to preach, he told them to shake the dust off their feet if the town rejected their message, rather than forcing it on them.
    I always find this argument funny, the idea that Jesus was more authentic because he talked of peace.

    Have you read the Old Testament at all? If Jesus was in fact God he didn't mind the odd bit of mass genocide.

    Mohammed lead military campaigns around the Middle East, as did Jesus. And Jesus ordered his men to raid cities killing all the men women and children in them.

    The idea that Jesus was a peace maker is some what shot in the foot by Jesus claiming to be God, the same God that had his followers wage genocidal war after genocidal war in the Middle East.


  • #103
    Schuhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,835 ✭✭✭Schuhart


    ChocolateSauce wrote: »
    Jesus as we know him is a legend based around a man who almost certainly wasn't like we have been told. Mohammad on the other hand was chronicled in life by both Muslims and non-Muslims alike.
    Can you tell us what this non-Muslim source is? My understanding was that only Muslim sources exist describing the early years of Islam. I've a feeling that you may be referring to a handful of references to Mohammed in non-Muslim writings, all of which would be later than his career.

    When you consider his name means 'one who is praised', it would actually cast an element of doubt to whether that was his name, or a title conferred on him later.

    I think you also need to bear in mind that Mohammed's visions relate to events that he had no personal knowledge and connection to. Hence, it seems a little strange to be placing such weight on what he said. I could spout some vision of the career of Jesus and (unlike Mohammed) offer you a blood test as proof of my existence. What's that got to do with the truth of my vision?
    ChocolateSauce wrote: »
    For two, the bible is full of internal contradictions, whereas the Koran is not.
    Not only has the Quran contradictions, it depicts a flat earth with both the Sun and Moon rotating about it.
    ChocolateSauce wrote: »
    The Koran delivers a much clearer message. This is a powerful aid that Islam has, and gives it an edge over Christianity. Islam is also less fragmented than Christianity. Yes, there are branches, but no where near as many as with Christianity, and the differences are pettier.
    This stuff seems qualitative but, in any event I suspect you are getting your information from an uncritical source.


  • #104
    Jannah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 263 ✭✭Jannah


    hunnybunny wrote: »
    You never hear of Muslims converting to christianity, yet some christians do convert to Islam. Why is this?
    The punishment for leaving Islam is death, as directed in the Qur'an...


  • #105
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Jannah wrote: »
    The punishment for leaving Islam is death, as directed in the Qur'an...

    Indeed that's why I think that the ex-Muslims who do turn to Christ are very brave, and perhaps have a bit more faith than some of those who are already Christians in the West. I don't know if I could make a sacrifice as big as that.


  • #106
    Jannah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 263 ✭✭Jannah


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Indeed that's why I think that the ex-Muslims who do turn to Christ are very brave, and perhaps have a bit more faith than some of those who are already Christians in the West. I don't know if I could make a sacrifice as big as that.

    Very true- but it's not because either religion is "better" or "worse", it's the fact that people have the balls to stand up in front of their family, friends and people of whom they already know will completely dismiss and ridicule them just to make a stand for something they feel strongly about. Thats pretty damn honourable- even if it doesn't relate to their religious beliefs


  • #107
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Jannah wrote: »
    Very true- but it's not because either religion is "better" or "worse", it's the fact that people have the balls to stand up in front of their family, friends and people of whom they already know will completely dismiss and ridicule them just to make a stand for something they feel strongly about. Thats pretty damn honourable- even if it doesn't relate to their religious beliefs

    have to disagree there. The honour is in what you stand up for, not that you set yourself up for ridicule. If, for example, scientolgy is a pile of garbage (which it is), and I make a stand for it, where is the honour? Its like, 'i don't care, I'm standing up for my beliefs'. Ok, there is a certain amount of courage, but if your beliefs turn out to be rubbish, then there is no honour is there?


  • #108
    Jannah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 263 ✭✭Jannah


    JimiTime wrote: »
    scientolgy is a pile of garbage
    first thing's first: very, very much agree there. Then again, any 'religion' that gets any air time in Hollywood is usually a ridiculous money-making cult that's only aim is to be able to exclude others to make some gob****es feel like they have some worth. Ugh.
    JimiTime wrote: »
    Ok, there is a certain amount of courage, but if your beliefs turn out to be rubbish, then there is no honour is there?
    In fairness, no matter what you believe in, there's always going to be somebody out there who thinks whatever it is is a load of bull. It is the act of standing up for something- anything- that you feel strongly about (usually in a moral sense) and think is right, regardless of what other people will do or say to you- I just think it's something pretty worthwhile in these days when it's so much easier to go with the flow and accept things because they're easy and not necessarily because you believe in them yourself. Obviously, you'll have the obvious exceptions like people who believe in racist or homophobic ideas- but usually in things like these there's always a little cligue of losers who will be egging them on, which kinda defeats the whole act being any way brave


  • #109
    DOONEE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5 ✭DOONEE


    Hi all, this is a very interesting post
    I'd like to just butt in and say that there are many scholars who proved that Jesus NEVER claimed to be god or the son of god or anything similar(which i find is the main problem in this discussion but of course i respect those who do believe that) Mohammad didn't write the quran the revelations were coming from god by the angel gabriel to mohammad.

    Recently i read the most interesting book about the bible written by a british priest not long ago called ''Is the Trinity Doctrine Divinel Inspired?''
    heres the link to download it

    http://8ooks0f1slam.wordpress.com/2008/09/01/is-the-trinity-doctrine-divinely-inspired/


    and also read who wrote the bible? by Richard Elliott Friedman.




    Peace...


  • #110
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    DOONEE wrote: »
    Hi all, this is a very interesting post
    I'd like to just butt in and say that there are many scholars who proved that Jesus NEVER claimed to be god or the son of god or anything similar

    No, there are some scholars who make that claim - but their claims are rather lacking in evidence. As one who has both studied and taught theology at post-graduate level I can confidently state that no scholar has ever come close to proving such an assertion.


  • #111
    Tim_Murphy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,995 ✭✭✭Tim_Murphy


    Off topic but lol @
    The Christian says, "I can't believe it's not butter!
    The Agnostic says, "I don't know whether it's butter or not!"
    The Atheist says, "Butter is the cause of all the suffering and violence in the world!"


  • Advertisement
Advertisement