Christianity or Islam? Which one to believe?

hunnybunny

I had thought about posting this on the Islam thread but my questions are really more about Christianity and Islam together.

Basicly I was born a Catholic and I have spent some time in the Middle East.
I have been looking at Christianity and Islam and how the 2 interlink (even the Jewish torah interlinks with christianity and Islam at some points )

When comparing the bible and the Quran, something that hits me is that the Quran has never been changed since it was written. And it was written directly by Mohommed himself. Muslims are encouraged to read it and understand it for themselves. The Koran is also younger and when translated into English , it reads in a way I can easily understand.

The bible on the other hand, was not written directly by Jesus. There are many books but only a certain few made it into the bible. Which sadly leads me to question what is written inside it.
In school I wasn t really encourage to read and interperet the bible for myself. I read many chapters of the bible independently at home.
Many other Catholics I know don t even own one and they were surprised at many of the things I told them that I read about eg. book of revelations and what it says about women. It contradicted what the church tells them and what our society is now.

Why don t we as christians question things more, like about what the bible says?

Another thing, with regards to Mohommed himself. We know he existed and he created an amazing movement that so many Muslims today follow.
Does nobody else question why they do this? How do we know that Jesus was the last messenger? Why don t we even take look at Mohommed and his teachings?

I can belive that Jesus was an amazing person who changed the world. But if there is only one god, how could Jesus be the son of god? There is meant to be no other gods other than the creator, as was said in the old testament and the koran. The Koran also says that Jesus will come again.

In Islam you can accept both Jesus and Mohommed as messengers of God, yet in Christianity I will be completely shutting out one prophet. What if this is a mistake?

I feel like I am on the correct road but which path should I follow christianity or Islam? I know only I can answer this!

Muslims believe in their religion with such devotion. I really admire it. You never hear of Muslims converting to christianity, yet some christians do convert to Islam. Why is this?

To be honest certain things about Islam (in the Koran) make perfect sense to me, when there are so many things about christianity (in the bible) that confuse me in todays world.
Then again there are things in Islam that I question, but its mainly to do with the culture in todays world. I tend to agree with the prinicples but I don t like the way I see some of them simply ignored or twisted to suit their culture (like in Saudi Arabia)

I am not one of these people who would believe everything the priest/rabbai or Imam would tell me without question. I have to understand these things for myself.
Do you think there are any priests who would be able to discuss my questions about Islam with regards to christianity?
I ve already spoken to several Muslims about this and I d like to discuss it with someone who is Christian and sure of their beliefs.

Tar.Aldarion

One thing I don't understand is how muslims believe jesus is a messenger, do they think that he was lying when he said he was god and so on?
What do they believe about him exactly?

As for there being more than one god, jesus is supposed to be god, not another god, they are parts of the trinity according to christians, which apparantly means they are one. I'll let others address the rest of your post as I believe in neither religion and would just be discussing 'why believe in any of them' which is not what you want.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Well I think more muslims are converting to christianity in Africa than the other way around.

hunnybunny wrote:

In Islam you can accept both Jesus and Mohommed as messengers of God, yet in Christianity I will be completely shutting out one prophet. What if this is a mistake?

This is pretty irrelevent, how can you be sure the truth must be christianity or islam? Think of the thousands of prophets you're shutting out if you choose either

PDN

hunnybunny wrote: »

When comparing the bible and the Quran, something that hits me is that the Quran has never been changed since it was written.

Actually there are many variant readings in copies of the Quran. Have you ever heard of the Satanic Verses? These were a part of the Quran where supposedly Mohammed was deceived by Satan to teach that there were some godesses - but they were later removed. http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_Verses

And it was written directly by Mohommed himself.

That would have been somewhat difficult since many Islamic scholars teach that Mohammed was illiterate.

The Koran is also younger and when translated into English , it reads in a way I can easily understand.

Age has little to do with truth. The Daily Star is younger than either the Quran or the Bible.

Actually Islamic scholars teach that the Quran is only the Word of god when you read it in Arabic. Once you translate it into English or any other language it ceases to be the literal word of Allah and is only an interpretation.

The Bible, however, is available in plenty of modern translations.

The bible on the other hand, was not written directly by Jesus. There are many books but only a certain few made it into the bible. Which sadly leads me to question what is written inside it.

The fact that they operated a quality control system to weed out unworthy books increases my confidence in the Bible rather than diminishing it.

In school I wasn t really encourage to read and interperet the bible for myself. I read many chapters of the bible independently at home.
Many other Catholics I know don t even own one and they were surprised at many of the things I told them that I read about eg. book of revelations and what it says about women. It contradicted what the church tells them and what our society is now.

I'm not a Catholic, so I'll make no comment on that.

Why don't we as christians question things more, like about what the bible says?

We do. We question it in small bible study groups, in theological studies, and on internet fora like this one. In fact Christians today are generally much more free to question the Bible than Muslims are to question the Quran. Nobody will stone you if you disagree with the official line.

Another thing, with regards to Mohommed himself. We know he existed and he created an amazing movement that so many Muslims today follow.
Does nobody else question why they do this? How do we know that Jesus was the last messenger? Why don t we even take look at Mohommed and his teachings?

Jesus was not just a messenger. He was the Son of God who died for the sins of the world. Many of us have looked at the teachings of Mohammed and we have rejected them as inferior to the Gospel.

I can belive that Jesus was an amazing person who changed the world. But if there is only one god, how could Jesus be the son of god? There is meant to be no other gods other than the creator, as was said in the old testament and the koran. The Koran also says that Jesus will come again.

Jesus claimed to be God. If He was wrong about this then he was not a Messenger or a great prophet - rather that would make Him a liar or a nutcase. There is only one God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We call this the Trinity, and I freely admit it is hard to understand. That will cause trouble for those who think our finite minds should be able to comprehend the nature of an Infinite God.

Jesus will indeed come again at the end of the ages. This time He will come as a Judge rather than as a Saviour.

In Islam you can accept both Jesus and Mohommed as messengers of God, yet in Christianity I will be completely shutting out one prophet. What if this is a mistake?

Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No-one comes to the Father except through me." If you follow Mohammed then, by definition, you have to reject Jesus as who he really was and instead believe a distorted message about Jesus. If you follow Jesus you do indeed have to shut out false prophets.

I feel like I am on the correct road but which path should I follow christianity or Islam? I know only I can answer this!

Indeed. No-one else can make that decision for you.

At least we can be thankful that you have a choice. In centuries gone by the Catholic church would have killed you if you didn't choose their way. Today there are some Muslim states where you can be imprisoned or killed for choosing to follow Jesus. Being free to make your own choice is good, isn't it?

Muslims believe in their religion with such devotion. I really admire it. You never hear of Muslims converting to christianity, yet some christians do convert to Islam. Why is this?

Christians who convert to Islam can freely talk about their conversion without any risk. However, in some parts of the world Muslim converts to Christianity have to do so in secret because of persecution.

Ahmad Al Qataani أحمد القطعاني An important Islamic cleric,said on Al Jazeera, speaking of Africa alone: “In every hour, 667 Muslims convert to Christianity. Everyday, 16,000 Muslims convert to Christianity. Ever year, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity."

In my own Church two of my assistant Pastors are converts from Islam. We have more converted Muslims in the congregation.

To be honest certain things about Islam (in the Koran) make perfect sense to me, when there are so many things about christianity (in the bible) that confuse me in todays world.
Then again there are things in Islam that I question, but its mainly to do with the culture in todays world. I tend to agree with the prinicples but I don t like the way I see some of them simply ignored or twisted to suit their culture (like in Saudi Arabia)

I think there are things in both the Quran and the Bible that most people will find confusing. Cultures and political rulers will also twist both religions to suit themselves.

hunnybunny

This is pretty irrelevent, how can you be sure the truth must be christianity or islam? Think of the thousands of prophets you're shutting out if you choose either

Islam, Christianity and Judaism all have roots that interlink. I believe in the basic tenants of Islam and Christianity, not other religions.
Islam and Christianity share many prophets like Moses, Adam, Abrahim, Isaac, Jesus etc. If you look online you can see the flowcharts of the different prophets.

Jesus and Mohommed are the most recent and the ones that divide the 3 main religions Islam, Christianity and Judaism. They are main prophets of 2 major religion (Jesus for Christianity and Mo'hd for Islam)! Do you not know that?

quote Well I think more muslims are converting to christianity in Africa than the other way around.

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world

philologos

Muhammad is a prophet of 2 major world religions?

hunnybunny

Actually there are many variant readings in copies of the Quran. Have you ever heard of the Satanic Verses? These were a part of the Quran where supposedly Mohammed was deceived by Satan to teach that there were some godesses - but they were later removed. http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_Verses

No I haven t read the Satanic verses but I wouldn t rule out reading it.

That would have been somewhat difficult since many Islamic scholars teach that Mohammed was illiterate.

The word was given to Mohommed through the angel Gabriel (same angel who told Mary she was expecting)

Age has little to do with truth. The Daily Star is younger than either the Quran or the Bible.

True, but the Koran can relate more to the modern world than say the Bible. If Mohommed truly is the last the messenger then it the latest word of God. since the bible

Actually Islamic scholars teach that the Quran is only the Word of god when you read it in Arabic. Once you translate it into English or any other language it ceases to be the literal word of Allah and is only an interpretation.

Well I d have to judge on what I ve learnt so far before taking the trouble to learn arabic like so many converts have done.

The Bible, however, is available in plenty of modern translations.

yes because its interperted in so many different ways by different peope, catholics think one thing, Jehovahs witnesses another, protestants again something differnt, orthodox christians etc...
Same in Islam, Shi ites one thing, Sunnis another

The fact that they operated a quality control system to weed out unworthy books increases my confidence in the Bible rather than diminishing it.

But can you trust the person who picks and choses the books. Who are they? Things are picked and chosen and twisted to suit people. Like Mary Magdelen being brandished prostitute when Historians say it was never the case. as far as I know its not even written in the Bible. Thats just one way that christians have been mislead through not reading and interperting for themselves

We do. We question it in small bible study groups, in theological studies, and on internet fora like this one. In fact Christians today are generally much more free to question the Bible than Muslims are to question the Quran. Nobody will stone you if you disagree with the official line.

Again, its a catholic thing. You don t read the bible for yourself in church and there is no Questions and answers section in the cermony.

Jesus was not just a messenger. He was the Son of God who died for the sins of the world. Many of us have looked at the teachings of Mohammed and we have rejected them as inferior to the Gospel.

Many Muslims have asked me how can there be a son of god? How is that even possible? As if he is described as one God, how can he have a son? how can there be 2 parts to the one and only God, that makes no sense?

This is the question that stung me hard when I was asked it by a Muslim friend 3 years ago. I didn t know how to reply apart from its just what we believe It was then I started doubting and did more research into islam.

Maybe its all simply down to which version of the story of jesus do you believe more? the Bibles version or the Korans?

Jesus claimed to be God. If He was wrong about this then he was not a Messenger or a great prophet - rather that would make Him a liar or a nutcase. There is only one God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We call this the Trinity, and I freely admit it is hard to understand. That will cause trouble for those who think our finite minds should be able to comprehend the nature of an Infinite God.

The Muslims have him down as a great prophet among the likes of Abrahim, Moses and Isaac but cannot accept that there could be a son of god. Its one God or nothing for them.

Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No-one comes to the Father except through me." If you follow Mohammed then, by definition, you have to reject Jesus as who he really was and instead believe a distorted message about Jesus. If you follow Jesus you do indeed have to shut out false prophets.

Thank you, that quote is actually very helpful for me.

Indeed. No-one else can make that decision for you.

At least we can be thankful that you have a choice. In centuries gone by the Catholic church would have killed you if you didn't choose their way. Today there are some Muslim states where you can be imprisoned or killed for choosing to follow Jesus. Being free to make your own choice is good, isn't it?

I was never in any of those countries and I have never met anyone who converted to Christianity in any the Middle eastern arab countries I was in.

Christians who convert to Islam can freely talk about their conversion without any risk. However, in some parts of the world Muslim converts to Christianity have to do so in secret because of persecution.

Thats true but alot of this is down to culture and depends on how modernised the thinking is in the particular Islamic country.
Im not trying to defend Islam or take down Christianity. Both religions have things I agree with and dont.

hunnybunny

Jakkass wrote: »

Muhammad is a prophet of 2 major world religions?

No Mohommed is for Islam, though jesus is a prophet as well

PDN

hunnybunny wrote: »

Well I think more muslims are converting to christianity in Africa than the other way around.

Facts are what really matter, not what you or I think.

Let's see what Islamic leaders are saying. Here, read for yourself: http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/AlJazeerahAfrica.php

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world

That claim is often made, but the truth is a bit more complicated. Try reading this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest_growing_religion

Another factor to be considered is that most of Islam's growth is due to high birth rates rather than conversion. There is a bit of an urban legend about Islamic growth due to the building of Mosques in European and North American cities. However, such buildings are generally catering for immigrants who were always Muslims, not converts to the faith. In a free and democratic society conversions to Islam are comparatively rare.

In some Muslim countries, however, where there is no pattern of immigration (Christian or otherwise), huge Christian churches are springing up, even in the face of persecution. My own comparatively small denomination, for example, has its headquarters in the US, but we now have over 2 million members in Indonesia - twice our US membership. This includes a single congregation of 100,000 members in Jakarta and another with 75,000 in Subaraya.

hunnybunny

One thing I don't understand is how muslims believe jesus is a messenger, do they think that he was lying when he said he was god and so on?
What do they believe about him exactly?

No they definately don t think he is a liar, they just have a different version of his life and they don t believe that he claimed to be God.

As for there being more than one god, jesus is supposed to be god, not another god, they are parts of the trinity according to christians, which apparantly means they are one. I'll let others address the rest of your post as I believe in neither religion and would just be discussing 'why believe in any of them' which is not what you want.

Its the trinity that Muslims don t believe in. How could god be in heaven but jesus be on earth? thats what they struggle to believe. How could Jesus be the son of god? etc etc

PDN

hunnybunny wrote: »

Maybe its all simply down to which version of the story of jesus do you believe more? the Bibles version or the Korans?

That's a very good point. So which version is most likely to be correct?

a) The version that was written down by eye-witnesses, by followers of Jesus, and by close associates of those followers. The version that was written and widely circulated within 50 years or so of His life and death.

b) The version that an illiterate Arab merchant says he received from an angel 550 years after the event.

Think about it.

Fanny Cradock

Just a heads-up, PDN. Those links are broken.

Fanny Cradock

hunnybunny wrote: »

Its the trinity that Muslims don t believe in. How could god be in heaven but jesus be on earth? thats what they struggle to believe. How could Jesus be the son of god? etc etc

Well, nobody ever said the concept was easy to grasp.

I have a question: do Muslims (all or some) believe that Allah is omnipresent? If so then the concept of a triune God isn't then outside the boundaries of an omnipotent God. (Does that qualify as an oxymoron?)

Nothingcompares

PDN, I think you're letting yourself down by your choice of language in your most recent post.

I often think it's more important to judge a relgion on how it expects its followers to behave rather than theological history. Would you feel more at home in the muslim way of life than you do in your Christian? Try and seperate the arab culture from the muslim and the western culture from your christian way of life.

Nothingcompares

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Well, nobody ever said the concept was easy to grasp.

I have a question: do Muslims (all or some) believe that Allah is omnipresent? If so then the concept of a triune God isn't then outside the boundaries of an omnipotent God. (Does that qualify as an oxymoron?)

I'm not a Muslim nor any kind of expert but I've always felt that the Muslim interpretation of Allah (pbuh) was that "he" was a way. As opposed to the Christian view of God which is often personified as Jesus or another kind of old dude with a beard (think of simpsons).

Pyr0

PDN wrote: »

a) The version that was written down by eye-witnesses, by followers of Jesus, and by close associates of those followers. The version that was written and widely circulated within 50 years or so of His life and death.

But what about the sections we never got to read or study ? That happened to be cleverly weeded out over the years ? Surely some of them have been written by eyewitnesses too ? Gives me the impresstion they were trying to control what people believed and gathered from the Bible to suit their own personal needs as time progressed.

I suppose when it comes down to it OP, it's all about faith as they say, what suits and is more believable to your own personal understanding. I personally avoid religion, but I do find their debates interesting.

Fanny Cradock

Pyr0 wrote: »

But what about the sections we never got to read or study ? That happened to be cleverly weeded out over the years ? Surely some of them have been written by eyewitnesses too ? Gives me the impresstion they were trying to control what people believed and gathered from the Bible to suit their own personal needs as time progressed.

One man's weeding out is another man's quality control. To what sections do you refer to?

PDN

Pyr0 wrote: »

But what about the sections we never got to read or study ? That happened to be cleverly weeded out over the years ? Surely some of them have been written by eyewitnesses too ? Gives me the impresstion they were trying to control what people believed and gathered from the Bible to suit their own personal needs as time progressed.

We have discussed this before in this forum.

There are other accounts that claim to be written by eyewitnesses, but many of them are obviously from a much later date.

Actually you are free to read and study them. The myth that the Church methodically wiped out all competing books owes more to fiction like the Davinci Code than it does to history. Here's a link if you want to read and study some of them. I have done so, and it is an interesting experience. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/

What happened was that the early Christians began to read and share with each other the writings and accounts of Jesus that squared with the memories of the eye-witnesses that became the apostles and leradership of early Christianity. Individual churches steered clear of books that were obviously not consistent with this. Gradually a consensus developed as to which books were considered 'Scripture' and at a later date various Church Councils put their seal of approval on that consensus.

Fanny Cradock

Nothingcompares wrote: »

I'm not a Muslim nor any kind of expert but I've always felt that the Muslim interpretation of Allah (pbuh) was that "he" was a way. As opposed to the Christian view of God which is often personified as Jesus or another kind of old dude with a beard (think of simpsons).

I'm not following your post. What does the baseless representation of the Christian God - a being with a white beard and sandals - have to do with the Muslim interpretation of the nature of Allah? Whether Allah is 'a way' (I'm guessing you mean 'away' in a non-interventionist sense) doesn't really say anything about his nature. Maybe my question is better asked on the Islam forum. Thanks for your input anyway.

PDN

Nothingcompares wrote: »

PDN, I think you're letting yourself down by your choice of language in your most recent post.

Well I'm always open to correction.

Which part do you think is offensive?

The fact that Mohammed was illiterate? This is taught by many Islamic scholars.

The fact that he was an Arab? That is surely relevant since he came from a different culture to that of Jesus.

The fact that he was a merchant? Somewhat irrelevant, I must admit.

The fact that he claimed an angel gave him the facts about Jesus?

The fact that he lived 550 years after the life and death of Jesus?

Or do you think I should follow the politically correct and inconsistent media practice of referring to him as 'The Prophet Mohammed'?

philologos

Nothingcompares wrote: »

As opposed to the Christian view of God which is often personified as Jesus or another kind of old dude with a beard (think of simpsons).

I don't know any Christian who genuinely believes that God is an old man with a beard. The Simpsons might have portrayed God as such, but then again The Simpsons isn't a source of Christian theology. Jesus is the Son, a part of the Holy Trinity, so yes He is human and divine at the same time, the Father and the Holy Spirit are both divine also. The Christian God is three persons which make up one Almighty God. I find this diagram explains it best.

Nothingcompares wrote:

Would you feel more at home in the muslim way of life than you do in your Christian? Try and seperate the arab culture from the muslim and the western culture from your christian way of life.

I'd quite honestly prefer being a Christian, believing the Bible because I believe it holds up better than the Qur'an in terms of who Jesus is. Historical sources confirm the crucifixion, and various events that took place in the Gospel narratives such as the death of James the Righteous, and archaeology is now confirming the background of the Gospels to be true. The place of residence of Pontius Pilate, the palace of Herod Antipas. Why would people feel more at home in the Islamic way of life than that of a Christian in your opinion?

Nothingcompares

Fanny Cradock I'm obviously misinterpreting your question and / or am incapable of justly answering it.

I wasn't challenging the correctness of your post but perhaps I inferred a condescending and derogatory tone. Was that your intention ?

The version that an illiterate Arab merchant says he received from an angel 550 years after the event.

Is a bit like saying "Jesus was a Jewish carpenter that implied he was God who ran amok in a temple and died childless and wifeless at age 30 something".

Jackass, I don't think anything explains the mystery of the holy trinity, but that diagram is as good an effort as any.

Why would people feel more at home in the Islamic way of life than that of a Christian in your opinion

I think you may have taken me up wrong. I wasn't endorsing either religion. I inferred from the original posters comment that he had a crisis of faith based on whether he should follow an Islamic or a Christian path. To answer this question I encouraged him or her to ignore the history/mytology of the religions and concentrate on the practical side. I presume the culture and environment they were brought up in. In the same way an Irish man might be proud to be Irish purely because that's where he was born and raised, pick him up at age 2 weeks and put him in New Zealand and he'll probably feel the same way about NZ too.

philologos

Faith isn't about feeling at home. It's about a search for truth and meaning. Perhaps in a lot of cases many people do use their religion as a badge of pride, but that isn't the way it is intended.

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

That's a very good point. So which version is most likely to be correct?

a) The version that was written down by eye-witnesses, by followers of Jesus, and by close associates of those followers. The version that was written and widely circulated within 50 years or so of His life and death.

b) The version that an illiterate Arab merchant says he received from an angel 550 years after the event.

Think about it.

Er, if you believe it actually was an angel then surely the correct answers is B, is it not.

PDN

Wicknight wrote: »

Er, if you believe it actually was an angel then surely the correct answers is B, is it not.

Only if you believe that all angels are both good and truthful.

wes

hunnybunny wrote: »

I had thought about posting this on the Islam thread but my questions are really more about Christianity and Islam together.

The guys in the Christian forum are hardly going to recommend another religion to be fair . (Also the Islam forum would be no different also.)

As for which one to choose, well I think that something that you can only answer for yourself. Best to follows your own conscious on it, or even cast a wider net if you like, to look at other belief systems.

Bduffman

Asking christians which religion to believe in is a bit like asking a cork man what hurling team you should support. You are hardly going to get an objective answer from anyone who is born into a religion.

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

Only if you believe that all angels are both good and truthful.

Ok, let me clarify, if you believe it was an angel sent by God, then surely the correct answer is B

why would anyone believe a bunch of humans over an angel sent by God?

robindch

Wicknight wrote: »

why would anyone believe a bunch of humans over an angel sent by God?

Saved me from asking the same question... All the more so, since I recall PDN writing a "well, everything is possible for god" type response in a post a week or two back and thinking that the point was satisfactorily answered.

PDN

Bduffman wrote: »

Asking christians which religion to believe in is a bit like asking a cork man what hurling team you should support. You are hardly going to get an objective answer from anyone who is born into a religion.

And what about those of us that weren't born into a religion?

In fact, since Robin claims that everyone is actually born as an atheist, your logic would pretty well mean that nobody can give an objective answer about atheism.

Bduffman

PDN wrote: »

And what about those of us that weren't born into a religion?

Then you are part of a tiny minority. So you parents were atheists? Or were they simply non-practising? Because if its the latter, any belief they had was bound to filter down. You are a christian because, I presume, you live in a majority christian country. Or is it just coincidence that you 'became' a christian?

PDN wrote: »

In fact, since Robin claims that everyone is actually born as an atheist, your logic would pretty well mean that nobody can give an objective answer about atheism.

Now you're being pedantic. I may have said 'born christian' but you know well I meant that someone who is born into a christian family is probably going to become a christian. And yes, parents who actively raise their children as atheists may well become atheists. My own preference would be to bring children up to think for themselves by using facts & logic & leave them decide for themselves when they're older.

PDN

Bduffman wrote: »

Then you are part of a tiny minority. So you parents were atheists? Or were they simply non-practising? Because if its the latter, any belief they had was bound to filter down. You are a christian because, I presume, you live in a majority christian country. Or is it just coincidence that you 'became' a christian?

I was raised as an atheist. The fact that I lived in a so-called majority Christian country certainly hindered my conversion to Christianity. I was so turned off by the hypocrisy and narrow-mindedness of mainstream Christianity that I would rather have embraced any other religion. However, upon examining the available evidence, Christianity made more sense than any other option I could see.

Are you seriously arguing that people who are raised in a non-Christian society and not been raised in the faith are therefore not going to become Christians?

philologos

PDN wrote: »

Are you seriously arguing that people who are raised in a non-Christian society and not been raised in the faith are therefore not going to become Christians?

Well if he was all he would have to do is substitute Atheist / Agnostic in the place of Christian, and apply it to his own situation to see that that was false.

Fanny Cradock

Nothingcompares wrote: »

I wasn't challenging the correctness of your post but perhaps I inferred a condescending and derogatory tone. Was that your intention ?

Not at all. I'm usually quite clear when I want to be obnoxious!

Tar.Aldarion

PDN wrote: »

Are you seriously arguing that people who are raised in a non-Christian society and not been raised in the faith are therefore not going to become Christians?

For a majority, yes. There are converts later in life but where and when you are born has a big affect on what religion you are.

Schuhart

hunnybunny wrote: »

When comparing the bible and the Quran, something that hits me is that the Quran has never been changed since it was written.

As I understand it (and I’m just a gob****e, so this is more just thoughts you might want to investigate in your own study) the Satanic Verses episode mentioned by PDN is a traditional story told about Mohammed, rather than something that can be positively verified as having happened. I don’t think there are actually copies of the Quran with those verses in them, and then later versions with them removed.

That said, the utterly unchanged Quran is a bit of a myth. There are variations between the text as we know it now and inscriptions on early buildings. Scriptural analysis also suggests later changes – including Mohammed’s name. Where the Quran seemed to benefit was that an early Caliph was organised enough to establish a process through which a standardised text was compiled, with all other texts being destroyed.

Hence, the situation is more that we know about the various religious texts that didn’t make it into the Bible, but all we know about the alternative versions of the Quran is that they were destroyed.

That said, we can probably take it that the Quran is a reasonable account of Mohammed's visions in the same way that we can take the Gospels to be a reasonable account of what early Christians said about Jesus.

Wicknight wrote: »

why would anyone believe a bunch of humans over an angel sent by God?

Is the choice not more between whether you believe a bunch of humans who say 'we met God' or an individual who said 'I met an angel sent by God'? I'm not confident that we've correctly identified the comparison here.

And surely, in this context, to the extent that what’s at issue is the career of Jesus, the Quran account would be simply irrelevant. We need to say no more about it than Mohammed would have an awareness of Jesus from the Christian communities that he knew, and so there’s no great mystery about where he would have heard about the concept of a virgin birth or the crucifixion.

The issue is purely one about the extent to which we feel early Christians (leaving aside for a moment how ‘early’ is early) might have written an inaccurate account. Which I think is a space that cannot be bridged, as its quite clear that the tale could have grown in the telling, even in the space of a few decades (and, as I said, leaving aside for a moment if 'early' might involve a couple of centuries). Equally, however, it seems open to someone to maintain that they feel no significant distortion occurred. There seems to me to be no solid way of closing that gap.

As I see it, it simply comes back to that argument that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. To me, the Quran is clearly nonsense, while the Bible falls well short of the level of proof I’d expect a fair minded deity to provide if he really wanted us to pay heed and avoid damnation.

But then, maybe he’s not a fair minded deity.

Bduffman

PDN wrote: »

Are you seriously arguing that people who are raised in a non-Christian society and not been raised in the faith are therefore not going to become Christians?

Well more or less yes - and the numbers back me up. Its why you are not a muslim or hindu or buddhist. You may have been raised as an atheist but you had exposure to christianity as we all do in western society. Therefore you became a christian & not anything else. If you were raised in Iran you would probably be muslim - not because it is the right religion - but because of circumstance.
So are you seriously suggesting that the chances of you following any other religion was just as likely as you following christianity?

PDN

Bduffman wrote: »

Well more or less yes - and the numbers back me up. Its why you are not a muslim or hindu or buddhist. You may have been raised as an atheist but you had exposure to christianity as we all do in western society. Therefore you became a christian & not anything else. If you were raised in Iran you would probably be muslim - not because it is the right religion - but because of circumstance.

So, the tens of millions of people in China who, despite being raised in an atheist society with Confucian overtones have converted to Christianity, they are the exceptions that prove the rule?

BTW, the numbers don't back you up. Conversion rates worldwide demonstrate that people born into another religious environment are more likely to convert to Christianity than vice versa.

So are you seriously suggesting that the chances of you following any other religion was just as likely as you following christianity?

No, all other things being equal I would be more likely to be a Christian because it makes sense on so many levels. Also, part of conversion is the work of the Holy Spirit convincing a person of truth - that could not happen in another religion, so Christianity was more likely.

Dave!

PDN wrote: »

That would have been somewhat difficult since many Islamic scholars teach that Mohammed was illiterate.

Don't let a barrier as trivial as that turn you off Mohammed! Sure Jesus was no water strider, yet he crossed that lake like he was on a surf board!

TravelJunkie

Also, part of conversion is the work of the Holy Spirit convincing a person of truth - that could not happen in another religion, so Christianity was more likely.[/QUOTE]


What PDN says about the Holy Spirit is key. All contributors to the bible were inspired by the Holy Spirit, and even today when pastors / teachers go up and talk they are inspired by the Holy Spirit. Hopefully the people who chose what to put in the bible were also inspired by the Holy Spirit ( I trust they were).

Another point about Mohammed and him being a prophet - he wasn't the last prophet. If you're going to go with the theory that Jesus ws a prophet, then Mohammed, etc you have to continue to look for prophets and as far as I know, Baha lula (don't know if I spelt it right but it is the Bahai faith that believe in him) was the last prophet.

So if you're going to reject Christianity (in my view the coming of the Son of God put an end to the need for more prophets, so any other prophet claiming to talk on behalf of the ONE and only God must be false), you may as well look into Bahai as well.

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

So, the tens of millions of people in China who, despite being raised in an atheist society with Confucian overtones have converted to Christianity, they are the exceptions that prove the rule?

You seem to be ignoring that a) Christianity is still a small religion in China and b) Christianity has had a long history in China.

Also how would you explain the Muslims in China (nearly as many a christians), or the Buddists (far more than christians), if the Holy Spirit is key to conversions?

Bduffman

PDN wrote: »

So, the tens of millions of people in China who, despite being raised in an atheist society with Confucian overtones have converted to Christianity, they are the exceptions that prove the rule?

Incorrect. China never was an atheist society - it just had / has an atheist government.

PDN wrote: »

BTW, the numbers don't back you up. Conversion rates worldwide demonstrate that people born into another religious environment are more likely to convert to Christianity than vice versa.

Yes - but they were raised in a religious environment. Personally it doesn't really matter to me what non-existent god people believe in.

PDN wrote: »

No, all other things being equal I would be more likely to be a Christian because it makes sense on so many levels. Also, part of conversion is the work of the Holy Spirit convincing a person of truth - that could not happen in another religion, so Christianity was more likely.

The fact is that an individual who is brought up in one religion is far more likely to stay with that religion as they are to convert - thats what I mean by the numbers backing me up. You believe you are a christian because 'it makes sense on so many levels'. So its just coincidence that you happen to live in a christian country? Would you be just as likely to come to that conclusion if you lived in Iran? I don't see the 'holy spirit' convincing too many people there.

PDN

Wicknight wrote: »

You seem to be ignoring that a) Christianity is still a small religion in China and b) Christianity has had a long history in China.

If by small you mean 100,000,000 people and close to 10% of the population then we are agreed about its smallness.

A long history in China matters not a jot when a minority religion is trampled under the Cultural Revolution.

Also how would you explain the Muslims in China (nearly as many a christians), or the Buddists (far more than christians), if the Holy Spirit is key to conversions?

I never claimed that every religious conversion must be the work of the Holy Spirit. People convert faiths for a multitude of reasons. However, the work of the Holy Spirit in receiving Christ is one factor in explaining why, on a global basis, there are more conversions to Christianity than to other religions.

As for the Buddhists and Muslims in China, they actually support my criticisms of Bduffman's theory. The Buddhists and Muslims in China, like the Christians, prove that brainwashing people into a particular faith (atheism in China's case) does not stop them choosing to embrace another faith in later life.

PDN

Bduffman wrote: »

Incorrect. China never was an atheist society - it just had / has an atheist government.

Each time I visit China I meet hundreds of people who disagree with you - but perhaps you know more about China than the Chinese do themselves?

Personally it doesn't really matter to me what non-existent god people believe in

So that's why you're posting in a thread about whether someone should believe in Islam or Christianity? :rolleyes:

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

If by small you mean 100,000,000 people and close to 10% of the population then we are agreed about its smallness.

Yes I would consider 10% of the population small and consistent with the history of Christianity in China, especially considering Islam is put at between 4% and 9% (I notice you are rounding up with your Christianity statistics) and some estimates put Buddhist cultural adherence as high as 75% of the population. Perhaps the holy spirit wants everyone to be Buddhist.

PDN wrote: »

A long history in China matters not a jot when a minority religion is trampled under the Cultural Revolution.

The Cultural Revolution lasted 13 years PDN. You make it sound like it went on for decades. In 1979 and 1980 the Chinese government reinstated the official Christian churches.

While Christianity no doubt suffered terribly during the Cultural Revolution the idea that Christianity was some how wiped from China is a gross misrepresentation of history, though I can see how it would serve the missionary/conversion propaganda that you seem to be involved in.

Christianity had a long established place in Chinese society and culture, that survived the Cultural Revolution

PDN wrote: »

However, the work of the Holy Spirit in receiving Christ is one factor in explaining why, on a global basis, there are more conversions to Christianity than to other religions.

is it?

you attribute the "holy spirit" to the high level of Christian conversion when at a particular point in time those are the highest statistically

I wonder would you invoke the supernatural deity of other religions if they, at a particularly point in history, were a religion with the highest conversion rate at that present moment in time.

or would you invoke "multitude of reasons"

PDN wrote: »

As for the Buddhists and Muslims in China, they actually support my criticisms of Bduffman's theory. The Buddhists and Muslims in China, like the Christians, prove that brainwashing people into a particular faith (atheism in China's case) does not stop them choosing to embrace another faith in later life.

See that is the thing. Your assertion that religion was wiped out from China during communist rule, and that since the 1990s it has reestablished itself despite being an alien concept in an non-religious culture and society, doesn't hold up.

robindch

PDN wrote: »

People convert faiths for a multitude of reasons.

Indeed. It's a sentiment which Gibbon memorably recorded in his infamous Chapter XV:

Edward Gibbon wrote:

Our curiosity is naturally prompted to inquire by what means the Christian faith obtained so remarkable a victory over the established religions of the earth. To this inquiry an obvious but unsatisfactory answer may be returned; that it was owing to the convincing evidence of the doctrine itself, and to the ruling providence of its great Author.

But as truth and reason seldom find so favourable a reception in the world, and as the wisdom of Providence frequently condescends to use the passions of the human heart, and the general circumstances of mankind, as instruments to execute its purpose, we may still be permitted, though with becoming submission, to ask, not indeed what were the first, but what were the secondary causes of the rapid growth of the Christian church?

...and spends the next few chapters sketching one series of answers to that really-quite-interesting question.

Bduffman

PDN wrote: »

Each time I visit China I meet hundreds of people who disagree with you - but perhaps you know more about China than the Chinese do themselves?

Right - so lets see if I can get this straight - as soon as the communists came to power - everyone just automatically became atheist? I don't need to go to China to realise that is just not true. (And thats based on logic not blind faith )

PDN wrote: »

So that's why you're posting in a thread about whether someone should believe in Islam or Christianity? :rolleyes:

Well of course. Isn't that obvious?

BrianCalgary

Bduffman wrote: »

Right - so lets see if I can get this straight - as soon as the communists came to power - everyone just automatically became atheist? I don't need to go to China to realise that is just not true. (And thats based on logic not blind faith )

I don't think PDN ever made that claim.

Flamed Diving

OP, you may be interested in the Bahá'í Faith. It might be right up your alley.

The Bahá'í Faith is a religion founded by Bahá'u'lláh in nineteenth-century Persia.[1] There are an estimated five to six million Bahá'ís around the world in more than 200 countries and territories.[2][3]

Bahá'í teachings emphasize the spiritual oneness of humanity and the underlying unity of the major world religions. Religious history is seen to have unfolded through the influence of a series of divinely sent messengers, each of whom established a religion that was suited to the needs of the time. These messengers have included Abraham, Moses, Zoroaster, the Buddha, Krishna, Jesus, Muhammad and, most recently, the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh. In Bahá'í belief, each messenger taught that other messengers would follow, and Bahá'u'lláh's claims and teachings fulfil the eschatological promises of previous scriptures. Humanity is understood to be involved in a process of collective evolution, and the need of the present time is for the gradual establishment of peace, justice and unity on a global scale.[4]

The word "Bahá'í" (/bæhɒːʔiː/, /bəˈhai/, Persian: بهائی) is used either as an adjective to refer to the Bahá'í Faith or as a term for a follower of Bahá'u'lláh, and the word is not a noun meaning the religion as a whole. It is derived from the Arabic Bahá’, meaning "glory" or "splendour".[5] "Bahaism" (or "Baha'ism") has been used in the past but is fading from use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1'%C3%AD_Faith

hunnybunny

Interesting replies

The guys in the Christian forum are hardly going to recommend another religion to be fair . (Also the Islam forum would be no different also.)

As for which one to choose, well I think that something that you can only answer for yourself. Best to follows your own conscious on it, or even cast a wider net if you like, to look at other belief systems.

Oh yes, I know the views will be pointed either towards Islam or Christianity or neither one. I wanted to hear opinions on why one would consider either faith.
I wouldn t mind getting a point of view on the Islamic forum. Thats an idea.

Flamed Diving

OP, you may be interested in the Bahá'í Faith. It might be right up your alley.

Yes, I have heard of it. One of my work collegues in the UAE is one. Its interesting, but I don think so.

kelly1

Hello Hunnybunny, I've not read all the replies from various people but I'd like to make a few points.

To me, discovering Christ is exactly like the story of the valuable pearl in Matthew:-

Mt 13:45 Again the kingdom of heaven is like to a merchant seeking good pearls. 46 Who when he had found one pearl of great price, went his way, and sold all that he had, and bought it.

Here's a few quotes about Jesus' mission and who He claims to be:-

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word [Jesus], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world, to judge the world, but that the world may be saved by him. 18 He that believeth in him is not judged. But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: because the light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the light: for their works were evil. 20 For every one that doth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, that his works may not be reproved.

Jn 3:36 He that believeth in the Son, hath life everlasting; but he that believeth not the Son, shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Jn 4:13 Jesus answered, and said to her: Whosoever drinketh of this water, shall thirst again; but he that shall drink of the water that I will give him, shall not thirst for ever: 14 But the water that I will give him, shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into life everlasting.

Jn 6:47 Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. 52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. 53 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. 55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

Jn 10:1 Amen, amen I say to you: He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up another way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4 And when he hath let out his own sheep, he goeth before them: and the sheep follow him, because they know his voice. 5 But a stranger they follow not, but fly from him, because they know not the voice of strangers.
6 This proverb Jesus spoke to them. But they understood not what he spoke to them. 7 Jesus therefore said to them again: Amen, amen I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All others, as many as have come, are thieves and robbers: and the sheep heard them not. 9 I am the door. By me, if any man enter in, he shall be saved: and he shall go in, and go out, and shall find pastures. 10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I am come that they may have life, and may have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd giveth his life for his sheep. 12 But the hireling, and he that is not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and flieth: and the wolf catcheth, and scattereth the sheep: 13 And the hireling flieth, because he is a hireling: and he hath no care for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know mine, and mine know me. 15 As the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father: and I lay down my life for my sheep.

Jn 10:30 I and the Father are one.

Jn 10:46 I am come a light into the world; that whosoever believeth in me, may not remain in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and keep them not, I do not judge him: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that despiseth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him; the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father who sent me, he gave me commandment what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting. The things therefore that I speak, even as the Father said unto me, so do I speak.

Jn 14:6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

John 15:1 I am the true vine; and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me, that beareth not fruit, he will take away: and every one that beareth fruit, he will purge it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now you are clean by reason of the word, which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine: you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.

In light of what Jesus says about Him being the only way to the Father and that He is the Way, the Truth and the Life and that we must abide in Christ in Him in us, how then can what Mohammed wrote be true? Why would there be any need for another prophet?

Why does Mohammed deny that Jesus was crucified or that Jesus is God the Son incarnate? The reason is simple. The spirit who appeared to Mohammed clearly wanted to draw attention away from Jesus and make us doubt who and what Jesus claimed to be.

I haven't read the Quran and I don't need to. I know I will never find another religion which shows the same love, mercy and compassion that God has for His people.

Re your question on the Holy Trinity and One God, I like to explain it like this.
The Son is like a perfect projection or mirror image of God's the Father's idea of Himself. The Son "proceeds" or flows from the Father. The Father is the perfect giver and the Son is the perfect receiver.

The Holy Spirit then "proceeds" from both the Father and the Son and is the result of the mutual perfect love between the Father and the Son. This love is so perfect that it "creates" another Person which we call the Holy Spirit.

The link between each of the three Persons is so perfect and intimate that there is only One God with the Father being the ultimate origin of the other two Persons. But each Person still has an individual identity and each possesses all the perfections of the Father and so all are equal.

I hope that makes it a bit clearer

God bless,
Noel.