What are the odds?

wolfsbane · 22-08-2008 08:39PM

Wicknight said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Specifically, in the case of children being abused/murdered for example, sometimes God permits such evil to happen, at other times He prevents it.
Is it not evil in itself to permit such evil to happen if one has the ability to stop it?

Could I say that I didn't stop my son being sexually abused by his teacher because I wanted the rest of my children to know that sexual abuse happens and is bad? Do you think anyone here would have time for such a nonsense excuse for allowing my son to suffer?

You are correct about man's responsibility. We are our brother's keeper. But God is not just one of us - He is our Creator, and it is His perogative to appoint our times and all that happens to us. He has appointed a time in which all wrongs will be punished and all rewards given. As sinners we are to patiently bear all His providences for us, waiting on His ultimate deliverance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Those who do the evil will pay for it in the Day of Judgement. Those who suffer it ought to learn from it how evil men's hearts are, and look to God to change their hearts lest they grow up to be just as wicked.

What is with you guy and the focus on the punishment aspect. What is the point of punishment if one could have stopped the event in the first place.

Again using the example of my (theoretical) son, which do you think would be better for my son, if I allowed him to be sexual abused and then punished the teacher who did it, or if I stopped the sexual abuse in the first place.

Do you think in the former case my son would by thanking me because the teacher has been punished for what he did, or do you think he would be very angry that I had the power to stop the harm in the first place yet allowed it to happen, even if I then punished the abuser after he had harmed my son.

In the big picture we are not the innocent victim. So what ever God permits to come our way, we can humbly call on Him for mercy and deliverance, rather than demand justice. If we got justice, we would perish with the perpetrators.

Here's God's comments on man's suffering, spoken by one of his holy prophets:

Lamentations 3:25 The LORD is good to those who wait for Him,
To the soul who seeks Him.
26 It is good that one should hope and wait quietly
For the salvation of the LORD.
27 It is good for a man to bear
The yoke in his youth.
28 Let him sit alone and keep silent,
Because God has laid it on him;
29 Let him put his mouth in the dust—
There may yet be hope.
30 Let him give his cheek to the one who strikes him,
And be full of reproach.
31 For the Lord will not cast off forever.
32 Though He causes grief,
Yet He will show compassion
According to the multitude of His mercies.
33 For He does not afflict willingly,
Nor grieve the children of men.
34 To crush under one’s feet
All the prisoners of the earth,
35 To turn aside the justice due a man
Before the face of the Most High,
36 Or subvert a man in his cause—
The Lord does not approve.
37 Who is he who speaks and it comes to pass,
When the Lord has not commanded it?
38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
That woe and well-being proceed?
39 Why should a living man complain,
A man for the punishment of his sins?
40 Let us search out and examine our ways,
And turn back to the LORD;
41 Let us lift our hearts and hands
To God in heaven.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
You are addressing PDN, but let me just say that 'coincidences' may well be just that, but when such happen in answer to prayer, the odds point more to intervention.
No, the odds point more to coincidence. If you are praying your brain is in the mode to assign purpose to non-connected events and you will see "intervention" everywhere.

When one sees repeated 'coincidences' but insists they are never an intervention, I think one is in what the counsellors call 'denial'.

wolfsbane · 22-08-2008 08:44PM

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

Why materialistic?

As the alternative to the spiritual explanation. If we are not spiritual beings created by God and objects of His goodness and severity, then how come we are what we are and experience all that we do? How can someone insist one action is to be deplored/commended above another?

The Mad Hatter · 22-08-2008 08:49PM

wolfsbane wrote: »

As the alternative to the spiritual explanation. If we are not spiritual beings created by God and objects of His goodness and severity, then how come we are what we are and experience all that we do? How can someone insist one action is to be deplored/commended above another?

But it's not the (only) alternative to the spiritual explanation. For all that, there are alternative spiritual explanations.

I think this has been discussed a couple of times in the megathread, but basically those things are wrong (partly) because they hurt people, and it's not psychologically healthy to hurt people.

wolfsbane · 22-08-2008 08:54PM

Gaviscon said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
It is indisputable that we all suffer and die - babies, children, and adults. Sometimes that is because of our particular sins, in which case babies and children would not be involved. But we all are involved in being sinners by nature, and so inherit Adam's punishment.
Hardly gives them a chance to prove themselves now does it. If that's the case why not just punish everyone for their nature?

We prove what we are from childhood - no one had to teach us to be selfish, to lie, etc. We just take to it like ducks to water. We are sinners, so we sin.

It takes a lot of training for the worst aspects of our nature to be restrained - parental disipline in childhood and the State's threats in adulthood.

Why not punish everyone? Because God in His love and mercy has opened a way back to Himself for sinners. His Son took upon Himself the punishment that was due to all those who repent and trust in Him. Those who refuse His mercy will bear their own punishment in hell:
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Galvasean · 22-08-2008 10:12PM

wolfsbane wrote: »

Gaviscon said:

We prove what we are from childhood - no one had to teach us to be selfish, to lie, etc. We just take to it like ducks to water. We are sinners, so we sin.

It takes a lot of training for the worst aspects of our nature to be restrained - parental disipline in childhood and the State's threats in adulthood.

Why not punish everyone? Because God in His love and mercy has opened a way back to Himself for sinners. His Son took upon Himself the punishment that was due to all those who repent and trust in Him. Those who refuse His mercy will bear their own punishment in hell:
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

So... the babies who die of a horrible disease, who have no concept of or Jesus end up where?
I mean they don't technically believe in Christ, but they don't deny him either.

Schuhart · 22-08-2008 10:17PM

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

But it's not the (only) alternative to the spiritual explanation. For all that, there are alternative spiritual explanations.

I think this has been discussed a couple of times in the megathread, but basically those things are wrong (partly) because they hurt people, and it's not psychologically healthy to hurt people.

Without a divinely sanctioned morality, there is no objective right or wrong. Equally, there is no standard to judge objectively what is psychologically healthy.

Genghis Khan is widely quoted as saying "The greatest pleasure is to vanquish your enemies and chase them before you, to rob them of their wealth and see those dear to them bathed in tears, to ride their horses and clasp to your bosom their wives and daughters." That sounds like he derived great psychological satisfaction from raping the female relatives of men he had defeated in battle.

I see no reason to doubt his testimony, and can see no reason, from an atheist viewpoint, for saying his outlook was wrong. I can agree it would be profoundly unpleasant to be at the receiving end of his attention, and that it would be unnerving to have to share the planet with him in a time when he was a military superpower. But that's different to saying it would be right for him not to conquer my country, because I would be more psychologically healthy if unconquered.

So maybe God does judge babies, or decided to kill them for the sins of their father (as was done in King David's case, I think?). Now, maybe you can dig up a religion that never sanctions killing and explains disease in some other way. But then you have to make the case that the religion you prefer is the true god-given one.

PDN · 22-08-2008 11:03PM

Gaviscon wrote: »

So... the babies who die of a horrible disease, who have no concept of or Jesus end up where?
I mean they don't technically believe in Christ, but they don't deny him either.

They end up in heaven.

Splendour · 23-08-2008 01:21AM

Schuhart wrote: »

Indeed, and to hopefully balance up your realism, can I say from my side that I feel PDN and Jimi are right to raise the simple fact that concepts like hope and morality, in the sense that they mean them, are not present in an atheist conception of life. I think non-believers have to give clearly answers to that kind of point, so that we're not wasting each others time with the same arguments that never meet in the middle.

I've a feeling that it may simply be a truth that people who find religion works well in their lives will not find an alternative within atheism for the features that make faith a positive experience. So there's really no point in telling PDN he could find a solution outside Christianity. He probably can't and, if he holds Christianity to be true, why should he?

I too hold Christianity to be true and no one could ever convince me otherwise. I am just home from a night out and the hopelessness of non believers was all around-almost tangible and I can't help feeling a saddness about it all.

The hope we have as believers is not based on this life Schuhart, but on the next life of eternal glory. One of my friends passed a comment tonight saying 'we have to make the most of this life as it's not a dress rehearsal'. In fact it is a dress rehearsal and the choices we make now will affect us when the curtains get pulled back and the real show begins...

vibe666 · 23-08-2008 02:21AM

PDN wrote: »

They end up in heaven.

what about dead muslim or hindu babies?

what the heck was in that apple anyway? seems like yer man is being exceptionally harsh over a pilphered granny smith! what happened to the whole forgiveness thing with that anyway?

it seems obvious that if adam is to remain unforgiven for eternity we're not going to fare any better, prayers or not.

also, PDM i believe you when you say that you live a very happy and fulfilling life and that you attribute to finding god, but plenty of poeple have done the same thing and turned their lives around without turning to god, he's not a necessary part of the process for a lot of people to do exactly what you have done with your life.

I'm not belittling your achievement at all, I'm sure you've become a much better person than you were before all this but you make it sound like there's no way anyone is going to do that without god and that's plainly not the case.

as an atheist i myself lead a very happy and fulfilling life full of hope and joy and to be honest I've lead a pretty charmed life all told. plenty of bad in there too from time to time but plenty of good and I do seem to be pretty blessed in a lot of ways.

maybe it's my lucky rabbits foot.

seriously though, i help old ladies carry their shopping and cross the street from time to time, i hold doors open for people and let other drivers out in front of me. I've had the living crap kicked out of me more than once whilst helping out total strangers in various kinds of trouble, i helped some friends move house the other week which i know really meant a lot to them (and it meant a lot to me to help them), and tomorrow (today now i look at the clock) i have a big group of friends coming over for a massive bbq and a few drinkies and expect a great day to be had by all, come rain or shine.

BUT to be on the safe side, there is a big christian childrens event of some description happening a couple of hundred yards down the road, so fingers crossed a few hundred christians praying for good weather for that will keep us dry.

I'm just trying to say that your lot don't have the only bag full of nice in town, us heathens are just as able for a bit of kindness and human decency as anyone else.

PDN · 23-08-2008 10:09AM

vibe666 wrote: »

what about dead muslim or hindu babies?

This is one of the few occasions when I actually agree with Richard Dawkins about anything. There is no such thing as a Christian baby, Muslim baby or Hindu baby. Babies have no religious beliefs. All you have are babies born to Christian parents, to Muslim parents or to Hindu parents.

A baby has not sinned and therefore God will hardly judge it for someone else's sin.

what the heck was in that apple anyway? seems like yer man is being exceptionally harsh over a pilphered granny smith! what happened to the whole forgiveness thing with that anyway?

it seems obvious that if adam is to remain unforgiven for eternity we're not going to fare any better, prayers or not.

Wasn't actually an apple, but that's another story altogether. The Latin words for evil (malus) and apple (malum) are similar - hence the misunderstanding. ...... Sorry - I have an obsession with trivia. It makes me annoying in conversation sometimes but everybody wants to be on my team at Christmas when the family tradition is to play Trivial Pursuit!

you make it sound like there's no way anyone is going to do that without god and that's plainly not the case.

It was not my intention to come across that way. Moral improvement, to some extent, can be acheived by a multitude of means. I was simply making the following points in response to other posters' questions or comments:

a) If Christian belief, and belief in prayer, was indeed to be revealed to be a delusion, then my experience is that it has been a very beneficial delusion. (shades of Pascals Wager again).

b) To say that man does not need God in order to behave well is, for a large number of people, not true. Many of us, on an individual level, have discovered faith in God to be a powerful force for improvement.

Dave147 · 23-08-2008 10:58AM

Splendour wrote: »

I too hold Christianity to be true and no one could ever convince me otherwise. I am just home from a night out and the hopelessness of non believers was all around-almost tangible and I can't help feeling a saddness about it all.

The hope we have as believers is not based on this life Schuhart, but on the next life of eternal glory. One of my friends passed a comment tonight saying 'we have to make the most of this life as it's not a dress rehearsal'. In fact it is a dress rehearsal and the choices we make now will affect us when the curtains get pulled back and the real show begins...

Hopelessness of non-believers? Are you for real? Take a look around, while we're busy using what short time we have to enjoy our lives and embrace every aspect of it, you're *wasting* your time worshiping a god who may or may not exist. I'm not Christian and I'm not Atheist, but I believe for the most part in the principles of the christian lifestyle. So lets say this God does exist, and he loves everyone etc, and we assume he put us on this earth to make a life for ourselves, one chance, do you really think he wants us spending it worshiping him? I cannot for one minute believe that, and who gives you or any other 'believer' the right to tell me I won't go to 'heaven', show me this PROOF!

Can I ask what do you think will happen to these 'hopeless non-believers' who have lead good 'christian' lives? If you think we'll end up in hell, that's exactly where I want to go, because I wouldn't want to spend an eternity in heaven with narrow minded people like you.

So let us believe or not believe, we don't want you to be saddened for us, start worrying more about yourself instead of trying to change other people.

I have a lot of hope by the way, I'm 22 with my whole life ahead of me, and if for some reason it's cut short then that's whats going to happen, I'll deal with that when I get there.

Edit: I'm not trying to personally insult you, but I'm not too pleased with being called hopeless.

Dave147 · 23-08-2008 11:03AM

vibe666 wrote: »

what about dead muslim or hindu babies?

what the heck was in that apple anyway? seems like yer man is being exceptionally harsh over a pilphered granny smith! what happened to the whole forgiveness thing with that anyway?

it seems obvious that if adam is to remain unforgiven for eternity we're not going to fare any better, prayers or not.

also, PDM i believe you when you say that you live a very happy and fulfilling life and that you attribute to finding god, but plenty of poeple have done the same thing and turned their lives around without turning to god, he's not a necessary part of the process for a lot of people to do exactly what you have done with your life.

I'm not belittling your achievement at all, I'm sure you've become a much better person than you were before all this but you make it sound like there's no way anyone is going to do that without god and that's plainly not the case.

as an atheist i myself lead a very happy and fulfilling life full of hope and joy and to be honest I've lead a pretty charmed life all told. plenty of bad in there too from time to time but plenty of good and I do seem to be pretty blessed in a lot of ways.

maybe it's my lucky rabbits foot.

seriously though, i help old ladies carry their shopping and cross the street from time to time, i hold doors open for people and let other drivers out in front of me. I've had the living crap kicked out of me more than once whilst helping out total strangers in various kinds of trouble, i helped some friends move house the other week which i know really meant a lot to them (and it meant a lot to me to help them), and tomorrow (today now i look at the clock) i have a big group of friends coming over for a massive bbq and a few drinkies and expect a great day to be had by all, come rain or shine.

BUT to be on the safe side, there is a big christian childrens event of some description happening a couple of hundred yards down the road, so fingers crossed a few hundred christians praying for good weather for that will keep us dry.

I'm just trying to say that your lot don't have the only bag full of nice in town, us heathens are just as able for a bit of kindness and human decency as anyone else.

Great post, you sound like an absolutely great role model and I can relate to alot of what you're saying.. I simply couldn't have said it better. Enjoy your barbeque!

Schuhart · 23-08-2008 01:33PM

Splendour wrote: »

The hope we have as believers is not based on this life Schuhart, but on the next life of eternal glory.

And, indeed, there is no such prospect in atheism. However, for what its worth, that's not actually the issue I find bothersome. The idea of a finite life is fine. What I find dissatisfying is the absence of any objective morality in a context where I feel it to be something that probably is important in human affairs.

I'm not sure that my co-non-religionists have always followed the implications of what we say to their logical conclusions. Some have, but any time I see someone saying 'of course we have hope and morality and purpose just like believers', I feel it necessary to say 'Hold on, we actually don't. Not in the sense that theists mean. We have whatever hope, morality and purpose we invent ourselves'.

So, if you find yourself sometimes feeling 'There's a God, but he seems to have deserted me today', be confident that there's at least one atheist who sometimes feels 'There's no God, but it would be useful to have one'.

Splendour · 23-08-2008 01:50PM

Dave147 wrote: »

Hopelessness of non-believers? Are you for real? Take a look around, while we're busy using what short time we have to enjoy our lives and embrace every aspect of it, you're *wasting* your time worshiping a god who may or may not exist. I'm not Christian and I'm not Atheist, but I believe for the most part in the principles of the christian lifestyle. So lets say this God does exist, and he loves everyone etc, and we assume he put us on this earth to make a life for ourselves, one chance, do you really think he wants us spending it worshiping him? I cannot for one minute believe that, and who gives you or any other 'believer' the right to tell me I won't go to 'heaven', show me this PROOF!

Can I ask what do you think will happen to these 'hopeless non-believers' who have lead good 'christian' lives? If you think we'll end up in hell, that's exactly where I want to go, because I wouldn't want to spend an eternity in heaven with narrow minded people like you.

So let us believe or not believe, we don't want you to be saddened for us, start worrying more about yourself instead of trying to change other people.

I have a lot of hope by the way, I'm 22 with my whole life ahead of me, and if for some reason it's cut short then that's whats going to happen, I'll deal with that when I get there.

Edit: I'm not trying to personally insult you, but I'm not too pleased with being called hopeless.

First off Dave, I'm not easily insulted very easily so no worries

I have no idea if you are going to Heaven or not as only God knows that and I believe everyone gets a chance to accept or reject his offer of the free gift of life. And being a free gift means we don't have to 'earn' our way into Heaven. I cannot prove this to you but simply tell you what God says in the bible which is to believe on Him and you will be saved. We are hopeless without Him...

Yes I do believe God wants us to worship Him and put him first-hence the first commandment. The reason he wants us to do this is so that if we do this first, he will be be with us in all of the other commandments...

There is absolutely nothing wrong with going out and having fun; I had fun last night listening to some good music and chatting with friends. I have some Christian friends who cannot wait for this life to be over and I don't get it. I realise Heaven will be a zillion times better than this life but I also believe God wants us to enjoy this life on earth and share that joy with others. I think it's an insult to God not to enjoy this life as much as we can!

The saddness I was referring to was the amount of people who were out purely to get drunk and basically this is all they live for. Standards have dropped so low in this country to the point were there is no respect anymore between lads and lassies. We have an epidemic of alcohol and drugs which was evident last night and I personally find this very sad.

Btw, if I came across as being patronising, I apologise as this was not my intent...

vibe666 · 23-08-2008 02:37PM

Dave147 wrote: »

Great post, you sound like an absolutely great role model and I can relate to alot of what you're saying.. I simply couldn't have said it better. Enjoy your barbeque!

thanks Dave, it's peeing it down right now and it's just about to start, but we'll be fine. probably a lot better off than all those kids at the christian adventure day thing down thew road with sopping wet bouncy castles will do anyway. i guess the power of their parents prayers was a little lacking today.

i was just reading about leading a good christian lifestyle and aside from a few personal vices I think I do lead a very christian life in the way i treat those around me, the only thing missing from it is someone otherworldly to attribute it to.

PDN · 23-08-2008 02:48PM

Splendour wrote: »

Btw, if I came across as being patronising, I apologise as this was not my intent...

Don't worry, I don't think you came across as patronising at all.

Dave is just playing the usual old routine where those who are intolerant of others holding different views pretend to be offended or outraged.

The Mad Hatter · 23-08-2008 03:30PM

Schuhart wrote: »

Without a divinely sanctioned morality, there is no objective right or wrong. Equally, there is no standard to judge objectively what is psychologically healthy.

Genghis Khan is widely quoted as saying "The greatest pleasure is to vanquish your enemies and chase them before you, to rob them of their wealth and see those dear to them bathed in tears, to ride their horses and clasp to your bosom their wives and daughters." That sounds like he derived great psychological satisfaction from raping the female relatives of men he had defeated in battle.

I see no reason to doubt his testimony, and can see no reason, from an atheist viewpoint, for saying his outlook was wrong. I can agree it would be profoundly unpleasant to be at the receiving end of his attention, and that it would be unnerving to have to share the planet with him in a time when he was a military superpower. But that's different to saying it would be right for him not to conquer my country, because I would be more psychologically healthy if unconquered.

So maybe God does judge babies, or decided to kill them for the sins of their father (as was done in King David's case, I think?). Now, maybe you can dig up a religion that never sanctions killing and explains disease in some other way. But then you have to make the case that the religion you prefer is the true god-given one.

You've actually just sent me off on a fascinating read on morality and moral scepticism on Wikipedia. I don't have the time or information to respond to you properly now, but thanks for the interesting read anyhow.

In brief, I disagree. I think we can judge psychological health as those who deviate widely from social norms are psychologically unhealthy. Genghis Khan is an example of this.

While we may not have the ability to judge anything completely objectively, we still have analysis and logic on our side to help us decide what is morally right and wrong.

Schuhart · 23-08-2008 06:50PM

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

I think we can judge psychological health as those who deviate widely from social norms are psychologically unhealthy. Genghis Khan is an example of this.

Just to make it explicit you'll understand the problems I see in assigning a moral value to social norms are that it raises question like:

What gives social norms authority? Were we given them on tablets of stone?
Does this mean that where social norms dictate it gays, transvestites, women with ambitions beyond being wives and mothers, and so forth, are unhealthy?
Does this mean that people who burn witches and heretics, in societies where this is sanctioned by social norms, are healthy?

I know it might be said how 'wide' is 'widely'. But I think that runs straight into the problem lampooned in the Courtroom scene in Woody Allen's 'Bananas' where Miss America says 'Differences of opinion should be tolerated. But not when they are too different. Then he becomes a subversive mother.' (She appears at about 3:30 minutes in to that video.)

You'll understand, I'm not suggesting this is news to anyone, I just wanted to make the point explicit.

PDN · 23-08-2008 07:18PM

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

In brief, I disagree. I think we can judge psychological health as those who deviate widely from social norms are psychologically unhealthy.

That would appear to have more to do with sociology than psychology.

What about those who rise above social norms - eg Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King or indeed Jesus Christ?

What about if a society as a whole is psychologically unhealthy?

Your relativistic definition of psychological health would appear to be fundamentally flawed. This would mean that a Hutu who conformed to social norms during the Rwandan genocide (only participating in killing a few Tutsis) is as psychologically healthy as someone who conforms to societal norms in a kinder and gentler culture.

Splendour · 23-08-2008 08:17PM

Schuhart wrote: »

there's at least one atheist who sometimes feels 'There's no God, but it would be useful to have one'.

Why?

Dave147 · 23-08-2008 09:32PM

Splendour wrote: »

First off Dave, I'm not easily insulted very easily so no worries

I have no idea if you are going to Heaven or not as only God knows that and I believe everyone gets a chance to accept or reject his offer of the free gift of life. And being a free gift means we don't have to 'earn' our way into Heaven. I cannot prove this to you but simply tell you what God says in the bible which is to believe on Him and you will be saved. We are hopeless without Him...

Yes I do believe God wants us to worship Him and put him first-hence the first commandment. The reason he wants us to do this is so that if we do this first, he will be be with us in all of the other commandments...

There is absolutely nothing wrong with going out and having fun; I had fun last night listening to some good music and chatting with friends. I have some Christian friends who cannot wait for this life to be over and I don't get it. I realise Heaven will be a zillion times better than this life but I also believe God wants us to enjoy this life on earth and share that joy with others. I think it's an insult to God not to enjoy this life as much as we can!

The saddness I was referring to was the amount of people who were out purely to get drunk and basically this is all they live for. Standards have dropped so low in this country to the point were there is no respect anymore between lads and lassies. We have an epidemic of alcohol and drugs which was evident last night and I personally find this very sad.

Btw, if I came across as being patronising, I apologise as this was not my intent...

Well thanks for clearing that up, and I agree with you about some peoples hopelessness but it's not just non believers, plenty of church goers are wasting their lives aswell. Just to clarify, I am agnostic, I do not believe in God but I also believe it is impossible to prove he does NOT exist also. I'm certainly not indecisive, I'm simply cynical and I am too busy enjoying my life than to worry about this. I am glad you have faith, for the simple reason that it allows you to live a good life and we need more people like that. I write this message to you while relaxing just off the beach in California

Dave147 · 23-08-2008 09:37PM

PDN wrote: »

Don't worry, I don't think you came across as patronising at all.

Dave is just playing the usual old routine where those who are intolerant of others holding different views pretend to be offended or outraged.

I'm certainly not intolerant of people with different views. My parents and 2 sisters are catholic, I've never had a single argument about religion with them and here's the big secret, they don't try and ram it down my throat. Their philosophy, if I want to believe, great. If I don't want to believe, great. There was only one point of Splendour's post that I wasn't happy about, I couldn't see the context that it was in, but now that I do I agree with him on that.

Dog Fan · 23-08-2008 09:46PM

PDN wrote: »

That would appear to have more to do with sociology than psychology.

What about those who rise above social norms - eg Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King or indeed Jesus Christ?

What about if a society as a whole is psychologically unhealthy?

Your relativistic definition of psychological health would appear to be fundamentally flawed. This would mean that a Hutu who conformed to social norms during the Rwandan genocide (only participating in killing a few Tutsis) is as psychologically healthy as someone who conforms to societal norms in a kinder and gentler culture.

That brings up an interesting point. Is there a globally accepted morality? Are there things that all cultures agree are immoral or moral? Is there, in fact, a collective unconscious as defined by Jung? I don't know.

I always found Socrates' method interesting when looking at morality. Moral standpoints were never accepted without a consistent logical framework.

Dog Fan · 23-08-2008 09:47PM

Dave147 wrote: »

I write this message to you while relaxing just off the beach in California

Enjoy.
It's been piddling down here all day:o

Splendour · 23-08-2008 10:22PM

Dave147 wrote: »

I write this message to you while relaxing just off the beach in California

Enjoy-I'm heading to Wexford for the week but somehow don't think I'll get any Californian sunshine... :rolleyes:

wolfsbane · 24-08-2008 04:22PM

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

But it's not the (only) alternative to the spiritual explanation. For all that, there are alternative spiritual explanations.

I think this has been discussed a couple of times in the megathread, but basically those things are wrong (partly) because they hurt people, and it's not psychologically healthy to hurt people.

Of course you are right about there being other spiritual explanations. I was responding to vibe666's atheist world-view, which must be materialistic.

As to psychologically healthy, do you consider other non-standard desires/behaviours 'wrong'? Paedophilia?

Gary Glitter was never so happy as when he was abusing young girls. Paedos I have talked to tell me that is how they were born, that they never had a 'normal' desire for adult sex. The only thing they find psychologically unhealthy is being labelled a pervert.

What makes the (moral) difference between him and you?

wolfsbane · 24-08-2008 04:45PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Not, as PDN points out, according to Wolfsbane who seems to take a Calvinistic approach to issues of free will.

But still, even taking a non-Calvinistic position, God still permits evil. To say otherwise would be to limit God, to suggest that his hands are tied some how. What ever the reason, and most Christians assume there is a good one, God permits evil and goes further by creating a universe that facilitates evil.

Wickie puts it well. Both Arminians and Calvinists believe God permits evil.

We both believe He can, and does many times, prevent it - by causing the proposed victim to be elsewhere, by causing others to intervene or by directly acting on the perpetrator's mind or body. But likewise, He often permits it to happen - as with the murder of Christ - for His good reasons.

BTW, I think some confusion arises by an incorrect use of the term 'free-will'. In its theological use, it refers to moral decisions, not to natural decisions. That is, to choosing to do good or evil; not to choosing sardines or sausages for tea.

God also makes men do many things against their moral will - the thief to forgo his plunder, by sending a police car to the premises, for example. But He does not make an honest man desire to thieve. The thief freely chooses to thieve.

wolfsbane · 24-08-2008 05:02PM

PDN wrote: »

Wolfsbane, as a Calvinist, believes that God determines everything and so all that happens is according to his will.

However, I should point out that this does not represent the views of many (probably most) Christians. Everything that happens is not necessarily God's will, otherwise there would be no such thing as free will.

I certainly do not believe it is the will of God for any child to contract leukemia.

I think it helpful to remember that God has both His secret will: the plan He has devised from eternity - and His revealed will: His moral desires for our conduct.

The latter are what He commands us in His word - to love the Lord with all our heart, and our neighbours as ourselves. But the former concerns all things that come to pass. It includes even the actions of the wicked - where He permits evil men to do evil things, things that are opposed to His commands - and demonstrates His infinite wisdom and power:
Romans 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

So the child contracting leukemia is in His perfect will. God has a good reason for it, and it will be for our ultimate good if we love God.

The alternative is the child being in the hands of chance or the Devil.

I can't do better than to commend to you this article by John Reisinger:
The Sovereignty Of God In Providence
http://solochristo.com/theology/Salvation/pog/sogp1.htm

For any of you wanting to get an understanding of the Calvinist world-view, this is it.

wolfsbane · 24-08-2008 05:11PM

vibe666 said:

for your view of god to be correct wolfsbane's view must be wrong and visa versa. i know you follow the same book, but your interpretations of what's in it's pages seem to be very different and for one view to be correct the other must be incorrect and indeed a lot of other branches of christianity and particuarly every other brand of religion going from islam to hinduism etc. etc. must also all be wrong.

Christians differ on non-essentials, without damaging our mutual connection to our Lord. None of us understand all things perfectly, but have to grow in the grace and knowledge of our God.

That means not all doctrines are of similar weight. Some are essential, others not. God sees to it we understand enough to be saved, but commands us to add to that more and more so that we appreciate Him more and more, and become less vunerable to deceivers and exploiters.

wolfsbane · 24-08-2008 06:31PM

vibe666 said:

and how does the whole forgiveness thing fit in with those assertions that we are all sinners and must be punished?

on the one hand you are taught that god will forgive you your own sins if you ask him to and are truly sorry for what you have done but on the other hand he's allowing the raping and killing of your fellow men women and children as punishment for the sins of adam thousands of years ago.

seems like he really knows how to hold a grudge. how can you be sure that he's really forgiven your own sins if he ca't forgive adam?

We share Adam's sinful nature, so share in his punishment. Being forgiven doesn't mean you escape all the consequences of your action - just the eternal ones. In His mercy, God does spare us many temporal ones too, but that is not essential to the meaning of forgiveness.

and you talk about 'the will of god' and how he decides what's what in the world, who he will help and who he won't. isn't it a bit presumptuous to think that your prayers would have any influence on him?

No, for He has promised to hear and do what is best for us.

for example. a child is dying of leukemia, which if it happened would be god's will but you seem to think that by praying you *may* be able to change the outcome so that the child could live. so are you saying that your prayer is able to change the mind of god?

surely if you did not intervene and the child dies then that is gods will, but if you pray and the child survives as a result then you have changed gods mind into sparing their life but that doesn't seem to fit in with my understanding of gods will as cast iron and unchangeable. when god decides to do something that's it, end of story.

how can you affect his decisions like this with prayer?

My prayer, and any answer to it, forms part of God's secret will. (Remember God's two wills - His secret will, that determines all that is to happen, and His revealed will, which tells us what he wants us to do.)

What are the odds?

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