National ID Card

Dogster · 19-08-2008 09:22PM

whiskeyman wrote: »

Brennan is obviously still taking an active part in this from his grave...

Article from The Sunday Times August 14, 2005

:pac:

Hi Whiskeyman well the man is dead, so he is not going to be in a position to argue with you so that sounds like a cheap shot to me. I would not mind if you could provide some substance to your remarks but I can't see that you have.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

javaboy · 19-08-2008 09:29PM

hellbent wrote: »

Can you people not see beyond the "ID card good, dissenters obviously have something to hide" train of thought? It's not the ID element that's the problem, but the intent to cram loads of private data about the holder onto it, eventually.

It's about the relative ease to hack into 'restricted' parts of the RFID chip - demonstated and documented already.

It's about how you can be 'detected' and have the card info read at relatively remote distances, over 100 meters afaik, with latest active RFID chips, and by people who don't simply want to know who you are.

Can I just clarify something here? Typically a card like this will just contain a unique identifier, possibly your PPSN but maybe not. When it is being read by a bank or whatever, a machine reads that number and looks it up in a database and retrieves only the info that that bank is authorised to read.

If a particular authority is not privy to certain info now, they still won't be privy to it after.

So if some criminal scans your card from afar, they can only get personal info about you from that if they otherwise have access to the database. And if they have access when they shouldn't then we've got bigger problems.

They will not be putting all your info on the card. It doesn't make any sense to do it that way.

Most of all, it's about the possibility of serious fines being imposed for not carrying your card, at all times.

That's probably the only good reason I can see to oppose this but is this actually part of the proposal?

javaboy · 19-08-2008 09:31PM

Dogster wrote: »

Hi Whiskeyman well the man is dead, so he is not going to be in a position to argue with you so that sounds like a cheap shot to me. I would not mind if you could provide some substance to your remarks but I can't see that you have.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

He wasn't taking a shot at Brennan. He was pointing out to the OP that the article he was referencing was 3 years old and not a new development.

Dogster · 19-08-2008 09:32PM

Just sounds like another silly and potentially dangerous idea following from the e-voteing machines fiasco. Like I would not have any problem with having a photograph on various cards which do not now carry a photo, it is the idea of a lot of info being combined on one card and possibility to use it as a vehicle for introducing id cards by stealth that is the issue.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Dogster · 19-08-2008 09:36PM

javaboy wrote: »

He wasn't taking a shot at Brennan. He was pointing out to the OP that the article he was referencing was 3 years old and not a new development.

Fair enough, my apology to Whiskeyman for my mistake and thanks Javaboy for going to the trouble of explaining Whiskeyman's point, appreciated.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Guy:Incognito · 19-08-2008 09:42PM

Off to the Run_To_Da_Hills craziness forum with you OP.

hellbent · 19-08-2008 10:00PM

javaboy wrote: »

Typically a card like this will just contain a unique identifier, possibly your PPSN but maybe not. When it is being read by a bank or whatever, a machine reads that number and looks it up in a database and retrieves only the info that that bank is authorised to read.

f a particular authority is not privy to certain info now, they still won't be privy to it after.

I realise that if the Govt opt for a passive RFID, with no battery included, that the chip will only contain a reference number, to be used as you describe. But, should they choose the active type, (and why wouldn't they, since its far superior, and has several storage areas contained within it), then it seems to me that some additional data, encrypted to be sure, will be inserted into these areas. This would allow authorised readers, which crucially might not have a current link to the main database due to being remote from a link, access to some relevant data. e.g. ambulance crews checking for blood type/ medical history etc.

That's one example only. Would you not agree that a card with such possibilities would not remain unfilled with data for very long?

javaboy · 19-08-2008 10:09PM

hellbent wrote: »

I realise that if the Govt opt for a passive RFID, with no battery included, that the chip will only contain a reference number, to be used as you describe. But, should they choose the active type, (and why wouldn't they, since its far superior, and has several storage areas contained within it), then it seems to me that some additional data, encrypted to be sure, will be inserted into these areas. This would allow authorised readers, which crucially might not have a current link to the main database due to being remote from a link, access to some relevant data. e.g. ambulance crews checking for blood type/ medical history etc.

That's one example only. Would you not agree that a card with such possibilities would not remain unfilled with data for very long?

If it was optional to carry and passive and only contained a reference number would you be opposed?

If it was mandatory to carry and only contained a reference no.?

If it was optional and contained a ref. no. and essential medical data would you be opposed?

If it was mandatory to carry and included medical data?

To answer your question, I can't see them putting anything more interesting than blood type and allergies on it really and imo that can't really be a bad thing.

hellbent · 19-08-2008 10:33PM

javaboy wrote: »

If it was optional to carry and passive and only contained a reference number would you be opposed?

If it was mandatory to carry and only contained a reference no.?

If it was optional and contained a ref. no. and essential medical data would you be opposed?

If it was mandatory to carry and included medical data?

Once it was optional to carry, and had no 'sensitive' information on it, I'd have no problem whatsoever with the cards. I simply don't believe that such options will be given on the introduction of these cards. I hope otherwise, but am not practising holding my breath.

Dogster · 19-08-2008 10:34PM

I would be wary of this whole Id thing, until the European Union has made plain what its position on cannibalism is.

Despite the country's decline into dictatorship, France remained a supporter of Bokassa. French president Valéry Giscard d'Estaing was a friend and loyal supporter of the emperor, and supplied the regime with much financial and military backing. In exchange, Bokassa frequently took d'Estaing on hunting trips in Africa and supplied France with uranium, a mineral which was vital for France's nuclear weapons program. As the years went on however, the French media grew increasingly critical of d'Estaing's cosy relationship with Bokassa, particularly after it was revealed the emperor had been giving the president frequent "gifts" of diamonds.
By January 1979, French support for Bokassa had all but eroded after riots in Bangui led to a massacre of civilians. On April 17-19 a number of schoolchildren were arrested after they had protested against wearing the expensive, government required school uniforms. Around 100 were killed. It was claimed that Bokassa had participated in the killings and even that he had eaten some of the bodies. Former President David Dacko was able to gain French support and lead a successful coup using French troops while Bokassa was absent in Libya on September 20, 1979.

http://www.dictatorofthemonth.com/Bokassa/Jan2003BokassaEN.htm

EU Constitution author says referendums can be ignored

Future referendums will be ignored whether they are held in Ireland or elsewhere, Valéry Giscard d'Estaing, the architect of the European Union Constitution said.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/2200026/EU-Constitution-author-says-referendums-can-be-ignored.html

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

javaboy · 19-08-2008 10:39PM

hellbent wrote: »

Once it was optional to carry, and had no 'sensitive' information on it, I'd have no problem whatsoever with the cards. I simply don't believe that such options will be given on the introduction of these cards. I hope otherwise, but am not practising holding my breath.

Personally, I can't see a law requiring you to carry it at all times being introduced except maybe while driving in lieu of the current stupid sized licence.

Also I doubt an active system will be used. It's more expensive, more complex and more prone to failure than a passive system. There's no real benefit in an active RFID system that I can see.

javaboy · 19-08-2008 10:42PM

Dogster wrote: »

EU Constitution author says referendums can be ignored

Future referendums will be ignored whether they are held in Ireland or elsewhere, Valéry Giscard d'Estaing, the architect of the European Union Constitution said.

That's just plain untrue. D'Estaing made a comment in French AFAIK which was poorly translated and taken out of context it does sound bad.

But the above quote is a deliberate misquote to serve a particular agenda. You might want to reconsider your sources.

19-08-2008 10:44PM

FAIL (safe)

RFID? Naaaaaaaaa, they wouldn't do like the Bushy administration did with US passports would they? (embedded chips)

There was an article in WIRED magazine about a hacker/cracker that sat in a Sacramento school district parking lot with an RFID reader and was able to access the ID info of children with such chips embedded in their student ID cards. Let's see... name, address, phone, age, grade, medical, persons to contact in case of emergency, etc., etc. Of course no one in the school administration thought of the potential for ID theft (or kidnapping), except the angry protesting parents that forced the school to eliminate the chips.

Oooooo, looky here! This one says that they are willing to donate their kidney if in a fatal accident. How about if we take it early while it's still fresh?

Encrypted? Piece of cake! Just think what's been in the news lately in Ireland and the USA about hackers cracking passwords for debit cards? (Bank of America in USA... one of the biggest)

Run_to_da_hills · 19-08-2008 10:46PM

hellbent wrote: »

Once it was optional to carry, and had no 'sensitive' information on it, I'd have no problem whatsoever with the cards. I simply don't believe that such options will be given on the introduction of these cards. I hope otherwise, but am not practising holding my breath.

The National ID card will be imposed by stealth in this country, ie it will be introduced first to those on the dole and old ones entitled to free travell, In other words it will work in all the touch pad portals of any Luas, Dart or bus.

Eventually the exact same card will subtly creep into being a driving license, student ID, manditory drink ID card to purchase beer and enter a pub, Photo ID card for entering a concert or football match to stop touting, making a tax claim, FAS training ID card, travel card to the UK etc etc.

The card will be so convenient that it will be just as important to have with you as having a mobile phone is to day. When either the state or the European Union make this card cumpulsory to carry people will then think nothing of it because they will be so used to carrying it on them anyway. In fact a day will come when people will feel totally lost without it.

javaboy · 19-08-2008 10:51PM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The National ID card will be imposed by stealth in this country, ie it will be introduced first to those on the dole and old ones entitled to free travell, In other words it will work in all the portals of any tram, dart or bus.

There not doing a great job on the old stealth if you managed to find out are they?

Eventually the same card will subtly creep into being a driving license, student ID, manditory drink ID card to purchase beer and enter a pub, Photo ID card for entering a concert or football match to stop touting, making a tax claim, FAS training ID card, travel card to the UK etc etc.

The card will be so convenient that it will be just as important to have with you as having a mobile phone is to day.

Sounds pretty handy. I'm sold. I'll only have to carry one card instead of about 10 and a flimsy, stupidly big driver's licence? Can't wait.

hellbent · 19-08-2008 10:53PM

There's not much point in introducing this type of ID card UNLESS it's mandatory to carry it.
In the normal world, we all know when we need to bring ID with us - youngsters into pubs, customers into banks, etc. This card is required, similarly to the British requirement, for spot checks/ terrorism deterrent, as well as for the run-of-the-mill stuff (that's not "run-to-da-hills") surely.

Oh, it'll be mandatory all right.

Dogster · 19-08-2008 10:54PM

javaboy wrote: »

That's just plain untrue. D'Estaing made a comment in French AFAIK which was poorly translated and taken out of context it does sound bad.

But the above quote is a deliberate misquote to serve a particular agenda. You might want to reconsider your sources.

You might well be right in fact you probably are right, and if it was somebody other than citoyen Giscard I would edit the posting after what you told me but such is my level of respect for the French political class I would say hard luck to them and really my primary goal was not to draw attention to what Giscard may or may not have said about the Constitution but that he had responsibility for it and that the Lisbon treaty is just a reheated version of it. No personal criticism intended and thanx for the comment Javaboy.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Marcus.Aurelius · 19-08-2008 10:57PM

RTDH, what exactly are you doing day to day that you don't want the govt to know your travelling arrangements?

Let's face it, they already know how much you earn, how much you travel (passport scans as you move around), and what HSE public services you use.

Just because it's more centralised doesn't mean they were not able to access your data previously. I for one would welcome anything that gets our third world state to move along more smoothly.

javaboy · 19-08-2008 11:03PM

Joker wrote: »

RTDH, what exactly are you doing day to day that you don't want the govt to know your travelling arrangements?

Let's face it, they already know how much you earn, how much you travel (passport scans as you move around), and what HSE public services you use.

Just because it's more centralised doesn't mean they were not able to access your data previously. I for one would welcome anything that gets our third world state to move along more smoothly.

+1. Centralising the data only makes it easier for the insitutions of the state to do their jobs especially Gardai. Anyone who could access your data before will be able to access it after and vice versa.

Now if people were to come on here complaining that they think the government will screw this up somehow and probably accidentally dispose of a hard disk backup of the entire database in a skip....... they might have a point. But in principle, there's not really much wrong with this idea as long as it's not mandatory to carry it where you have no actual need to use it.

Run_to_da_hills · 19-08-2008 11:05PM

javaboy wrote: »

There not doing a great job on the old stealth if you managed to find out are they? .

javaboy wrote: »

Sounds pretty handy. I'm sold. I'll only have to carry one card instead of about 10 and a flimsy, stupidly big driver's licence? Can't wait.

too many eggs in the one basket is not a good idea, IE if you loose the one you loose the whole lot. (Unless its implanted

)

The Irish driving license is planned obsolence and designed to "fall apart". I go through at least one every two years after they turn to pulp in my bike jacket with Irish weather. People here will jump at the idea of having a rigid photo credit card license,

hellbent · 19-08-2008 11:10PM

If these cards are capable of being cloned, well....the 'new' you would have a right field day, since he'd undoubtedly be YOU to all intents and purposes. Maybe you yourself would have trouble re-establishing you real identity.

javaboy · 19-08-2008 11:11PM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

too many eggs in the one basket, not a good idea. you loose the one you loose the lot. (Unless its implanted )

What exactly do you lose though? A card containing a number which can identify you in a database? If you lose your credit card, you cancel it immediately. I imagine you could report your ID card missing or stolen to the Gardai in a similar fashion so that it won't be used falsely to incriminate you.

And how is it really any different to losing your wallet currently?

The Irish driving license is planned obsolence and designed to "fall apart".

Source? I reckon the flimsiness of the licence is down to nothing more than Irish ineptitude.

I go through at least one every two years after they turn to pulp in my bike jacket with Irish weather. People here will jump at the idea of having a rigid photo credit card license,

And why shouldn't they? It's the sensible option that many other countries go for.

ninty9er · 19-08-2008 11:14PM

DUMBOBLONDE wrote: »

Would you be willing hand over all DNA and biometric information also?

A) No law abiding citizen has anything to fear from this.

Even our government knows what encryption is, even if the officials and agencies don't, perhaps more-so than other governments
C) They won't want useless information like DNA anyway
D)FAIL
E) in over 2 and a half year's of posting you're only the second person I've felt the need to add to my ignore list! Cop on!

Marcus.Aurelius · 19-08-2008 11:14PM

hellbent wrote: »

If these cards are capable of being cloned, well....the 'new' you would have a right field day, since he'd undoubtedly be YOU to all intents and purposes. Maybe you yourself would have trouble re-establishing you real identity.

Security is not difficult to implement these days. A simple chip and pin system with a thumb print recognition system to match the detail held on a national server would be more than adequate.

If your identity is stolen, (how often would this happen with civil servants, the only ones who would be allowed to view your card anyway, that pub stuff is rubbish) the government are wide open to lawsuits.

Hysteria is no excuse to prevent advancement in any field.

Dogster · 19-08-2008 11:15PM

As for the anti-terrorism value of such things, well I think it is overblown like Spain has identity cards and it did not stop a bunch of Islamofascists blowing-up Spanish trains and killing a lot of innocent people, nor did the fact that Spain has identity cards stop the nitwit Spanish government from claiming that it was the Basques wot done it, nor did the fact that Spain has identity cards stop a gullible Spanish public [ because of the idiotic actions of their Government ] from getting the idea in to their heads that the mass murdering fascists that blew up the trains were some sort of oppressed misunderstood idealists only seeking justice and that the Government was responsible for murdering the people on the trains not the fascists that detonated the bombs. The Moral of the story is, bureaucracy e.g. ID cards is no substitute for using your brain.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Run_to_da_hills · 19-08-2008 11:16PM

hellbent wrote: »

If these cards are capable of being cloned, well....the 'new' you would have a right field day, since he'd undoubtedly be YOU to all intents and purposes. Maybe you yourself would have trouble re-establishing you real identity.

This is why combind biometric thumb printing along with your ID card will be necessary. They can compare one off the other.

javaboy · 19-08-2008 11:16PM

hellbent wrote: »

If these cards are capable of being cloned, well....the 'new' you would have a right field day, since he'd undoubtedly be YOU to all intents and purposes. Maybe you yourself would have trouble re-establishing you real identity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46qKHq7REI4

With every advance we make, there will be problems. The potential benefits that would arise from streamlining our ID, driver licensing system etc. would far outweigh the very occasional identity theft which might occur. And identity theft occurs already. This system might make it easier though.

And btw, the database lookup would probably show a photo of the genuine cardholder when the card is used. So if it was used to travel through an airport, I expect the border security would notice you look nothing like the photo that shows up on his screen. So they wouldn't quite be you to all intents and purposes.

javaboy · 19-08-2008 11:20PM

ninty9er wrote: »

A) No law abiding citizen has anything to fear from this.
Even our government knows what encryption is, even if the officials and agencies don't, perhaps more-so than other governments
C) They won't want useless information like DNA anyway
D)FAIL
E) in over 2 and a half year's of posting you're only the second person I've felt the need to add to my ignore list! Cop on!

F) All of the above

Run_to_da_hills · 19-08-2008 11:23PM

javaboy wrote: »

And btw, the database lookup would probably show a photo of the genuine cardholder when the card is used.

Not necessarly, the photo ID can be altered as was in one of the first biometric passports that was cloned, Ie a photo of Bin Laden was digitally incerted into the chip instead of the original child. http://www.newscred.com/article/show/title/e-passports-can-be-hacked-and-cloned-in-minutes-e-passport-489a3c66b12a4

javaboy · 19-08-2008 11:35PM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Not necessarly, the photo ID can be altered as was in one of the first biometric passports that was cloned, Ie a photo of Bin Laden was digitally incerted into the chip instead of the original child. http://www.newscred.com/article/show/title/e-passports-can-be-hacked-and-cloned-in-minutes-e-passport-489a3c66b12a4

Note I said the database lookup would show the photo. I didn't suggest the photo would be stored on the card.

National ID Card

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