Kevin Myers: Risible lies about immigrants no substitute for honest debate

Orizio · 16-08-2008 12:02PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

Btw, saying fraud is a necessary way of life is retarded.

You really are one for the complicated arguments aren't you?

Invariably, corruption is something forced on the people by those in power, the government etc, something that the people have little choice to do if they wish to get jobs, get food and so on. Its a huge push in logic to argue that because the Nigerian governent is corrupt, that the Nigerian culture is one of corruption and fraudalence, or indeed that Nigerians in Ireland won't evolve.

Flamed Diving · 16-08-2008 12:04PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

Eh... that's a bit extreme, isn't it?

There is a reason Nigeria is associated with fraud. It is not a race issue.

Nigeria is famous within Africa for fraud. It is not an issue confined to white people.

Perhaps, but Nigeria comprises of many different tribes and cultures, many of whom would rather not be part of Nigeria. In fact, Nigeria is yet another back-of-a-napkin colonial carve-up which paid little or no attention to cultural differences. Therefore making statements like:

They definitely have a culture of fraud

a little redundant.

LeixlipRed · 16-08-2008 12:05PM

darkman2 wrote: »

You check it. This article was in the Irish Independent today. Is Myers telling lies? I dont think he is and I wont check it because he is a first class journalist and we need more like him in this country to tell things like they are.

I stopped reading the thread after this, the fourth post. Just because Myers uses big words you don't understand and doesn't talk like your average knacker taxi driver doesn't make him any less of a racist than some knuckle dragging half wit who starts a sentence with "****ing hate black people".

Tigger · 16-08-2008 12:05PM

i blame the weather for the grumptyness of boards users this month

mabey we should all take some vitamin d

AARRRGH · 16-08-2008 12:08PM

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Perhaps, but Nigeria comprises of many different tribes and cultures, many of whom would rather not be part of Nigeria. In fact, Nigeria is yet another back-of-a-napkin colonial carve-up which paid little or no attention to cultural differences. Therefore making statements like:

Nigeria is of course a huge country with all kinds of people.

Maybe I should have phrased it "They definitely have a culture of fraud within parts of their population".

(I assumed you knew I wasn't talking about every single Nigerian person!

)

Orizio · 16-08-2008 12:09PM

Prove it.

Do you see what I did there? Yes, it's retarded to make people search for official documentation to back up everything they say.

In fact, thats what people do when they make an argument, they back it up with proof. Its 'retarded' to you because you have nothing to back up your bull**** 'argument', which aren't arguments as much as hot air coming out of your arse.

If so, why are you defending the statistics that show Nigerians claim a lot more social welfare benefits than people from the EU?

Charming little strawman. Look up a dictionary, as I assume you don't know what that means, completely lost as you are to the rules of debating.

Is it that you think the statistics are wrong, or that you think the statistics must have been made by a racist person? Or is it because you love defending the black man because it makes you feel good about yourself?

Seriously, I'd like to know.

Gibberish and baiting. Pathetic.

Tigger · 16-08-2008 12:11PM

LeixlipRed wrote: »

I stopped reading the thread after this, the fourth post. Just because Myers uses big words you don't understand and doesn't talk like your average knacker taxi driver doesn't make him any less of a racist than some knuckle dragging half wit who starts a sentence with "****ing hate black people".

what does make him a racist
he's right wing buit that dosent make him racist
fact is i very much doubt he has an issue with any immigrants that are working (not asyleum seekersthats a different issue obviously)

Orizio · 16-08-2008 12:12PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

Nigeria is of course a huge country with all kinds of people.

Maybe I should have phrased it "They definitely have a culture of fraud within parts of their population".

(I assumed you knew I wasn't talking about every single Nigerian person! )

Tranlslation: I accept now that I was talking through my arse, and am backtracking.:rolleyes:

Of course, you have still offered nothing to suggest that any area of Nigeria is culturally corrupt, rather then the government just being corrupt and the poeple forced to paly by the states rules.

AARRRGH · 16-08-2008 12:12PM

Orizio wrote: »

Gibberish and baiting. Pathetic.

I asked you a simple question. Why are you insulting me?

Why can't you explain what is your issue with the statistics?

Either -

a. you think they are wrong
b. you think it must be a racist conspiracy

or

c. (and I suspect this is the reason) you don't know why you are defending the statistics, but it has something to do with not being able to see past the fact that Nigerians are black, and you're getting confused, so you feel you have to defend them

It's a simple question.

Orizio wrote:

Tranlslation: I accept now that I was talking through my arse, and am backtracking.

No, I assumed people knew I wasn't talking about every single Nigerian. I explained that was not the case. It's not called backtracking. You do know it is very easy to miscommunicate on a discussion forum?

If you continue your current tactic of not making sense, I will need to leave this debate, as you're just wasting my time.

Flamed Diving · 16-08-2008 12:16PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

I asked you a simple question. Why are you insulting me?

Why can't you explain what is your issue with the statistics?

Either -

a. you think they are wrong
b. you think it must be a racist conspiracy

or

c. (and I suspect this is the reason) you don't know why you are defending the statistics, but it has something to do with not being able to see past the fact that Nigerians are black, and you're getting confused, so you feel you have to defend them

It's a simple question.

No, I assumed people knew I wasn't talking about every single Nigerian. I explained that was not the case. It's not called backtracking. You do know it is very easy to miscommunicate on a discussion forum?

If you continue your current tactic of not making sense, I will need to leave this debate, as you're just wasting my time.

d) Peoples interpretation of said statistics is biased away from the reality of the situation. (ie. Nigerians find it harder to get work?)

AARRRGH · 16-08-2008 12:17PM

Flamed Diving wrote: »

d) Peoples interpretation of said statistics is biased away from the reality of the situation. (ie. Nigerians find it harder to get work?)

Absolutely could be the case.

We need to get some statistics for Chinese people to compare the numbers.

Does anyone know where we can get them?

AARRRGH · 16-08-2008 12:21PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

Absolutely could be the case.

We need to get some statistics for Chinese people to compare the numbers.

Does anyone know where we can get them?

Found them: http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/population/non-irish/pages44-66.pdf

7% of Chinese are unemployed, 31% of Nigerians are unemployed.

Explain.

Tigger · 16-08-2008 12:24PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

Found them: http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/population/non-irish/pages44-66.pdf

7% of Chinese are unemployed, 31% of Nigerians are unemployed.

Explain.

the 7% were recently made redundant
next question

AARRRGH · 16-08-2008 12:25PM

Tigger wrote: »

the 7% were recently made redundant
next question

Haha

Flamed Diving · 16-08-2008 12:27PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

Absolutely could be the case.

We need to get some statistics for Chinese people to compare the numbers.

Does anyone know where we can get them?

Hmm, stop me if I'm wrong here, but cultural prejudice for:

Chinese = Hard-working for low wage.

Nigerian = Lazy, criminal snigger

I would imagine that Chinese people have a better chance of getting work that Nigerians. For example, one of my friends is half-Pakistani, but culturally is as Irish as anyone. However, because his name is arabic he does find he gets lower replies to applications. In fact, a scientific study was done several times using applications with similar skills and experience using 'black-sounding' names and 'white-sounding' names. The black applicants recieved 40%+ less offers than the whites. and I can back that up, with time.

AARRRGH · 16-08-2008 12:28PM

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Hmm, stop me if I'm wrong here, but cultural prejudice for:

Chinese = Hard-working for low wage.

Nigerian = Lazy, criminal snigger

Yes, you're wrong.

Why do you try to look at things in the most negative way possible?

I picked Chinese because they are not from the EU.

Get it?

Flamed Diving · 16-08-2008 12:29PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

Yes, you're wrong.

Why do you try to look at things in the most negative way possible?

I picked Chinese because they are not from the EU.

Get it?

No, I'm not wrong. I bet if we conducted a similar study to the one above, the chinese would get far more offers. But of course, that wouldnt suit your narrow-minded viewpoint, would it?

marcsignal · 16-08-2008 12:30PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

7% of Chinese are unemployed, 31% of Nigerians are unemployed.

Explain.

You have an accountancy vacancy in your thriving financial services company.
A Chinese person and a Nigerian person apply for the job, who do you hire ??

AARRRGH · 16-08-2008 12:31PM

Flamed Diving wrote: »

No, I'm not wrong. I bet if we conducted a similar study to the one above, the chinese would get far more offers. But of course, that wouldnt suit your narrow, racist viewpoint, would it?

You had better retract that statement that I am racist.

EDIT: Why are you unable to see past the fact that Nigerians are black? I don't care that they're black, why can't you? The only thing I am interested in are the statistics. We could be talking about anything. Stop bringing everything back to race.

gogglebok · 16-08-2008 12:43PM

The articles ignores some important questions.

38% of Nigerians are unemployed. Let's ask the most basic trainee-journalist question: is there a restriction on their employment?

WORK PERMIT CATEGORIES

Well, not being members of the EU, they need work permits. These are limited to two categories: (a) Jobs with an annual salary of €30,000 or more and (b) a very small list of jobs with an annual salary of less than €30,000.

Not many recent immigrants to anywhere are offered lucrative jobs. Most get by as labourers. retail sales staff, nursery or crèche workers, nannies, hotel workers and miscellaneous tourism and catering staff.

None of these jobs are eligible for work permits.

(Note: Like Myers, I have no idea what percentage of Nigerians are unemployed because they can't get work permits and what percentage are unemployed for other reasons. But I'm a hungover mong on a website, and Myers is a journalist for a national newspaper.)

OTHER FACTORS

1. Cost.

Even for those jobs which are covered by the work-permit system, employers have to pay an application fee which starts at 500 euro. Wouldn't you rather hire a Latvian for free?

2. Anti-African or anti-Nigerian racism.

Do we have any evidence of this? Well, according to a crusading journalist not known for his liberal sympathies, a number of Irish people believe 'that "asylum seekers" are given free driving lessons and even cars, or that the ducks in public parks are vanishing because immigrants are catching and eating them'. Many others seem to believe that Nigerians are culturally or racially lazy or fraudulent. Why hire someone you believe is likely to be lazy or fraudulent?

Taking these factors into account, the miracle seems to be the 62% of Nigerians who have found and held a job.

WHY PEOPLE DISLIKE KM

Throughout the article Myers suggests that the difference between the hardworking EU immigrants and the non-working Nigerians is one of race or culture. Isn't there a simpler and more influential difference - precisely that the EU immigrants are from the EU? The fact that Myers does not consider this raises serious questions about his intelligence or his honesty.

The fact that he suggests a racial reason for a perceived problem without stating what that reason is or how it might work raises questions about his motives.

The fact the he veers off into donning the robe of martrydom, with a self-aggrandising whinge about his lone fearlessness in starting the debate, raises questions about his character.

In all of these things Myers is no better than the soup-chewers on here who mutter about the "PC brigade" everytime they notice that some people aren't white. The fact that he brings that low level of debate to a national platform, and does it in such a witless and self-conceited way, makes him a natural target for contempt.

Tigger · 16-08-2008 12:44PM

gogglebok wrote: »

The articles ignores some important questions.

38% of Nigerians are unemployed. Let's ask the most basic trainee-journalist question: is there a restriction on their employment?

WORK PERMIT CATEGORIES

Well, not being members of the EU, they need work permits. These are limited to two categories: (a) Jobs with an annual salary of €30,000 or more and (b) a very small list of jobs with an annual salary of less than €30,000.

Not many recent immigrants to anywhere are offered lucrative jobs. Most get by as labourers. retail sales staff, nursery or crèche workers, nannies, hotel workers and miscellaneous tourism and catering staff.

None of these jobs are eligible for work permits.

(Note: Like Myers, I have no idea what percentage of Nigerians are unemployed because they can't get work permits and what percentage are unemployed for other reasons. But I'm a hungover mong on a website, and Myers is a journalist for a national newspaper.)

OTHER FACTORS

1. Cost.

Even for those jobs which are covered by the work-permit system, employers have to pay an application fee which starts at 500 euro. Wouldn't you rather hire a Latvian for free?

2. Anti-African or anti-Nigerian racism.

Do we have any evidence of this? Well, according to a crusading journalist not known for his liberal sympathies, a number of Irish people believe 'that "asylum seekers" are given free driving lessons and even cars, or that the ducks in public parks are vanishing because immigrants are catching and eating them'. Many others seem to believe that Nigerians are culturally or racially lazy or fraudulent. Why hire someone you believe is likely to be lazy or fraudulent?

Taking these factors into account, the miracle seems to be the 62% of Nigerians who have found and held a job.

WHY PEOPLE DISLIKE KM

Throughout the article Myers suggests that the difference between the hardworking EU immigrants and the non-working Nigerians is one of race or culture. Isn't there a simpler and more influential difference - precisely that the EU immigrants are from the EU? The fact that Myers does not consider this raises serious questions about his intelligence or his honesty.

The fact that he suggests a racial reason for a perceived problem without stating what that reason is or how it might work raises questions about his motives.

The fact the he veers off into donning the robe of martrydom, with a self-aggrandising whinge about his lone fearlessness in starting the debate, raises questions about his character.

In all of these things Myers is no better than the soup-chewers on here who mutter about the "PC brigade" everytime they notice that some people aren't white. The fact that he brings that low level of debate to a national platform, and does it in such a witless and self-conceited way, makes him a natural target for contempt.

chineese are from outside eu

AARRRGH · 16-08-2008 12:46PM

Good post, but it doesn't explain why the Chinese only have 7% unemployment.

I accept that "the Chinese are hard working" and "the Nigerians might be dodgy" plays some role for certain employers, but can it explain the entire 7% vs 31% divide?

Tigger · 16-08-2008 12:49PM

marcsignal wrote: »

You have an accountancy vacancy in your thriving financial services company.
A Chinese person and a Nigerian person apply for the job, who do you hire ??

are you unemployed
?

AARRRGH · 16-08-2008 12:51PM

marcsignal wrote: »

You have an accountancy vacancy in your thriving financial services company.
A Chinese person and a Nigerian person apply for the job, who do you hire ??

Interesting question.

I used to work for a certain large Irish jobs website, and I was faced with the exact dilemma. Do I hire the Nigerian or the Chinese? The managing director told me "no blacks" and for the Chinese girl "her English isn't good enough" (her English was fine.)

In the end I had to hire a weak Irish employee.

AckwelFoley · 16-08-2008 12:51PM

alot of the nigerian are her for refugee status.. and to steal your bike

The chineese come from a communist country and can only come her afik on a student visa - or form of work permit.

AARRRGH · 16-08-2008 12:55PM

snyper wrote: »

alot of the nigerian are her for refugee status.. and to steal your bike

The chineese come from a communist country and can only come her afik on a student visa - or form of work permit.

Yep, this could be a large factor alright.

Do we know what % of Nigerians are refugees?

Flamed Diving · 16-08-2008 12:56PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

You had better retract that statement that I am racist.

EDIT: Why are you unable to see past the fact that Nigerians are black? I don't care that they're black, why can't you? The only thing I am interested in are the statistics. We could be talking about anything. Stop bringing everything back to race.

Edited.

How do you account for the fact there are higher rates of unemployment for blacks in America/UK than whites?

JIZZLORD · 16-08-2008 12:58PM

Wreck wrote: »

The full report is available via the CSO website here. I had a quick skim of it but was unable to find the relevant statistics.

Myers is a smug, bigoted, reactionary hack. His articles are biased to his worldview in the extreme. His overriding aim appears to be to create controversy and further his career, rather than 'tell it like it is'.

+1

Kevin Myers is a hack.
Also the indo is no longer a bastion of journalistic integrity

gogglebok · 16-08-2008 01:01PM

snyper wrote: »

The chinese come from a communist country and can only come her afik on a student visa - or form of work permit.

That sounds like it could be a factor, as does the issue of cultural prejudice.

Is there also a difference in the rates at which Chinese and Nigerians have arrrived? I get the impression that there was a small well-established Chinese population here before the swell of immigration. That would have given the more recent Chinese arrivals a network of support and a source for jobs.

(Hey, Kevin, look what we're doing! Raising facts and suggesting reasons for them! It's fun!)

AARRRGH · 16-08-2008 01:08PM

JIZZLORD wrote: »

Also the indo is no longer a bastion of journalistic integrity

Was it ever?

I think Myers' point is valid: Irish people cannot seperate action from race. It's evident in this thread. The stupid people want to bring everything back to the fact that Nigerians are black. It is impossible to discuss the issues without being labled a racist.

Myers has a way of writing in a smug, wankerish tone which loses his message to most people.

I don't like the man, but I think he has a point.

Saying all that, I'm sure it's not easy being a Nigerian in Ireland, and I am sure there are many issues which explain the high unemployment. But the fact of the matter is the statistics exist, and it isn't just because "they're black and everyone else is racist".

If I had to guess -

Work permit issues
Refugee issues
Racial issues
Unwillingness to do menial jobs (i.e. the jobs the Chinese are willing to do)

Kevin Myers: Risible lies about immigrants no substitute for honest debate

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