Kevin Myers: Risible lies about immigrants no substitute for honest debate

darkman2

D'you know -- and for reasons you might possibly soon understand -- I was rather hoping that someone else was going to pick up on a story which appeared when I was on my summer break. But no one did. Hmmm. I wonder why? Ah well, into the valley of death, et cetera.

Last week, the figures appeared for the numbers of people receiving full state-subsidy for rental accommodation in Ireland. Nearly 40pc of them are immigrants. Most of these are EU nationals, and are entitled by law to the same benefits as are Irish nationals. So, the 3,061 British-born people who are getting their accommodation paid for by the state are enjoying no more than the rights which Irish people in Britain would get. Indeed, the British are top of the league of foreigners who are claiming rent allowance. And this is not surprising, for they are also the most numerous foreign group, numbering some 112,000, according to the 2006 census.

Second in the list of foreign groups availing of free accommodation, courtesy of the State, are who? Citizens of fellow EU states, such as the Poles, the Latvians, the Czechs or Slovaks? No, indeed not. The people who come second in the rent-allowance league table are the Nigerians -- barely less than the British, with 3,024 claimants. But whereas the British figure constitutes just 2.7pc of the total population of Britons living here, the figure for Nigerians is 18.6pc of their total Irish population of 16,300. Alas, just how many more Nigerian dependents are the beneficiaries of the rent allowances that are being granted to the 3,024 family-heads, I cannot say.

Now this reliance upon the state for the accommodation of so many Nigerians reflects another rather uncomfortable truth which was revealed in the 2006 census, but which has never -- so far as I know -- been highlighted in the media. It is this: contrary to almost all predictions about the impact of immigrants upon an economy, a majority of Nigerians are not economically active at all. For even at the height of the boom, in 2006, only 38pc over the age of 15 were at work.

Maybe this is because so many are too old for work? Not so. There are almost no Nigerians over 50. Their average age is 26.6, with some 10,000 between the ages of 25 and 44. Yes, there are a large number of Nigerian children (3,845 under fifteen), but that figure of 38pc at work is a percentage of the over-15s only. The equivalent working proportions are: Poles, 84pc; Lithuanians, 82pc; and Latvians 82pc. On the other hand, the figures for rental-subsidy (remember: Nigerians 18.6pc) are Poles, 1.5pc; Lithuanians, 3pc; and Latvians, 4.3pc.

Now, you may think that what you have read so far has required a colossal amount of sleuthing -- not so. Most of these figures were presented in five separate national profiles -- British, Latvian, Polish, Lithuanian, Nigerian -- by the Central Statistics Office in its report on the 2006 census, no doubt to make life easier for us baffled, thicko, journalists. Yet so far as I can see, no other journalist has chosen to use the startling CSO revelations, leading to the first of many questions, all of them beginning -- why?

Why are so many people, from a country to which we have no moral or legal or historical obligations, living off this state? Why are they being allowed through immigration, if they have no jobs to go to? Why are they choosing to come to Ireland, when 20 countries or more lie between their homeland and ourselves? And finally, and perhaps most important of all, why is no one else asking why? Why did no one else pick up on the immigration digest so thoughtfully provided by the CSO?

Is it because we are too polite? Too timid? Too stupid? Too scared about being called racist? Which is all very well, but such intellectual and emotional repression does not usually end benignly. In place of openly spoken and verifiable truths, risible lies are whispered and believed, such as that "asylum seekers" are given free driving lessons and even cars, or that the ducks in public parks are vanishing because immigrants are catching and eating them. The acceptance of such gibberish is the foot-in-the-door of racist scaremongering, and can only happen in the dark of media-contrived ignorance, and all usually ending in tears.

For the real issue is not the number of Nigerians living here, nor even the absurd and unacceptable dependency of so many of them on this State. No, it is the abject refusal of the Irish people, both through the media and the Dail, to have an open debate about the biggest issue facing this country. Instead, to judge from events this time last year, our national broadcaster will soon be accusing the Catholic Church of racism -- either for wanting Catholic children in its Catholic schools, or for not preparing places for African children who were not even in Ireland when the school rolls were being filled. And, naturally, for this is Ireland, it's professionally far more rewarding for the media to go on an easy, Catholic-bashing spree than it is to inquire into the complex and possibly discomfiting truths about immigration.

I agree with everything the man says. Too much pussy footing in this country from the biggest debate and threat to our society that no one has the balls to debate openly. Here is your chance. Lets debate this issue.

darkman2

40% of rent supplement recipients are Immigrants - Come on - lets hear the do gooder excuses.

Red Hand

darkman2 wrote: »

40% of rent supplement recipients are Nigerian - Come on - lets hear the do gooder excuses.

Give us a link from the CSO. I presume you checked it's website rather than solely relying on an article from a third rate hack?

Edit: I'm in the wrong. Myers says that 40% of rent allowance is allocated to immegrants-EU/British being the majority.

So darkman2, produce some stats that say that 40% of rentt allowance is going to Nigerians.

darkman2

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

Give us a link from the CSO. I presume you checked it's website rather than solely relying on an article from third rate hack?

You check it. This article was in the Irish Independent today. Is Myers telling lies? I dont think he is and I wont check it because he is a first class journalist and we need more like him in this country to tell things like they are.

Jilm

I'm glad Myers doesn't write for the Irish Times anymore.

Pandering to the LCD in the indo is much more his style.

Holsten

I agree with Myers 100%.

Immigration within this country is a total joke and something should be done about it.

Red Hand

darkman2 wrote: »

You check it. This article was in the Irish Independent today. Is Myers telling lies? I dont think he is and I wont check it because he is a first class journalist and we need more like him in this country to tell things like they are.

No point in talking you if you won't even verify your own claims.

darkman2

darkman2 wrote: »

You check it. This article was in the Irish Independent today. Is Myers telling lies? I dont think he is and I wont check it because he is a first class journalist and we need more like him in this country to tell things like they are.

You're trying to prove a point yet failing to offer any facts to back it up. In order for anyone to take you seriously you need solid statics and/or factual information otherwise your arguement is flawed.

Also the fact that you seem to be basing your arguement on the word of Kevin Myers is all the evidence I need to know that you are completely wrong.

Mahatma coat

well said mr Myers.

its not Racist to dislike Spongers, its common sense.

marcsignal

I have to be honest and sport a wry smile here. Nobody needed Myres to tell us this was going to be a problem. A blind man on a galloping horse could have predicted years ago, that our insane immigration policy (or the fact we were too PC to actually have a policy) was hurtling towards unsustainable disaster.

The recession is only here a wet day and the fruits of this issue are already biting us right on the arse.

Kintarō Hattori

darkman2 wrote: »

You check it. This article was in the Irish Independent today. Is Myers telling lies? I dont think he is and I wont check it because he is a first class journalist and we need more like him in this country to tell things like they are.

Wow we have a real life StormFront user on boards.

ytareh

Anybody who grew up in the dark recessionary days of the 80s will remember the initials DHSS well.(Dept of Health and Social Security ?-Now NHS ...kinda?)Young Irish people particularly unqualified ones flocked in their tens of thousands to the UK where they knew that 'significant' hand-outs (state aid)awaited them .We have a very short memory...I dont ENTIRELY disagree with the gist of this article/thread but lets not get too sanctimonious ...

Wreck

The full report is available via the CSO website here. I had a quick skim of it but was unable to find the relevant statistics.

darkman2 wrote: »

I wont check it because he is a first class journalist and we need more like him in this country to tell things like they are.

Myers is a smug, bigoted, reactionary hack. His articles are biased to his worldview in the extreme. His overriding aim appears to be to create controversy and further his career, rather than 'tell it like it is'.

The fact that you are happy to accept as gospel newspaper articles you agree with tells us an awful lot about you darkman2. Your support for the opinions of a man who just last month said Africa had nothing to give to the world except aids tells us even more.

SoupyNorman

the ducks in public parks are vanishing because immigrants are catching and eating them.

I flipping well knew it...

In relation to the main Crux of the article, oul Mr. Myers can really hit the nail on the head or completly smash his thumb, more often the latter.

The clear message he sends out from his article is 'ship them back to wence they came and slam the door behind them. Which to me is a pretty ludicrous view to have...I have to admire people who have lifted themselves out of a what is often described as hellhole (Nigeria) and make their way here, I'm not saying I'm 100% happy that this happens but the point is that this countries laws and policies either allow it or do not enforce the immigration laws that do exist, So if these people CAN do it, why shouldn't they,

darkman2 wrote:

I agree with everything the man says. Too much pussy footing in this country from the biggest debate and threat to our society that no one has the balls to debate openly. Here is your chance. Lets debate this issue.

For instance, If your daughter was threatened with mandatory genital mutilation in Ireland....would you be a little inclined to head for The Netherlands?


It is also the case too that this card is played by many immigrants and it is not up to us to decide whether their reasons are sound or not. Immigration control is the first line of defense IMO, take the states for example...I went through 2 U.S. airports to get to San Diego and it was no walk in the park, even with all relevant documentation and the fact that there was 500 other j1'ers behind me. Then you arrive back in Dublin and everyone shuffles through 3 little gates! If Immigrants started to get a hard time upon entering this country word would filter back to the homelands, "hey start looking for somewhere else...Partys over" but as is, the doors are wide open and if you should throw them a scornful glance as they step onto our soil, they'll look back with a facial expression saying "hey man, our country is $hit". They are doing what is Instinctual, trying to carve out the most comfortable existence possible, they are human behind their racial facade, they feel Cold, hunger and sadness just like any of us.


I believe that if anyone comes to this country with intentions to work and start a new life, welcome and make yourself at home but If you're here for a free ride take your business elsewhere, this also includes People from Ireland too who've leeched off the State all their lives, never attempting to make a living what so ever.






Dont blame the people coming in, blame those letting them in.

Flamed Diving

Myers is a clown.

magick

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Myers is a clown.

great constructive argument there:rolleyes:

he does highlight issues that people talk about, but are too afraid to say out loud because God forbid their branded as a racist! :eek:

Flamed Diving

magick wrote: »

great constructive argument there:rolleyes:

he does highlight issues that people talk about, but are too afraid to say out loud because God forbid their branded as a racist! :eek:

No argument required, its a simple fact.

magick

Flamed Diving wrote: »

No argument required, its a simple fact.

why because he highlighted some statistics?

Flamed Diving

magick wrote: »

why because he highlighted some statistics?

No, because everything that man writes is contrived, disingenuous garbage aimed at riling up the bigoted morons who buy that rag. He adds nothing to debates and offers no solutions. Just like that whiney oul drunk in the corner of a bar who mutters to himself whilst quaffing his stout and farting. I have no respect for anything that idiot says.

magick

Flamed Diving wrote: »

No, because everything that man writes is contrived, disingenuous garbage aimed at riling up the bigoted morons who buy that rag. He adds nothing to debates and offers no solutions. Just like that whiney oul drunk in the corner of a bar who mutters to himself whilst quaffing his stout and farting. I have no respect for anything that idiot says.

he talks about issues that people will take an interest in and keep it in a public setting. But saying "contrived, disingenuous garbage" means u probably have made ur own conclusion even before reading it, all you needed was that key word "Myers".

Dont get me wrong, agree or disagree thats the beauty of a democracy and its your right, but i think saying "he's a clown" is just as bad as a comment, because those "bigoted morons who buy that rag" would say the same thing about a columnist that they happen to disagree with. Without giving a counterpoint.

Flamed Diving

magick wrote: »

he talks about issues that people will take an interest in and keep it in a public setting. But saying "contrived, disingenuous garbage" means u probably have made ur own conclusion even before reading it, all you needed was that key word "Myers".

Dont get me wrong, agree or disagree thats the beauty of a democracy and its your right, but i think saying "he's a clown" is just as bad as a comment, because those "bigoted morons who buy that rag" would say the same thing about a columnist that they happen to disagree with. Without giving a counterpoint.

If people hate the man, its only because he wants people to dislike him. And that is why he will never achieve anything. He may be making valid points, but he is crippling himself with the way he delivers them. That is all.

magick

everyone loves a good rant, he puts it to paper.

Anyway good night everyone, (im just wondering how many pages this thread will be when i get up tomorrow ill take a wild guess and say 5)

good night

Guy:Incognito

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

Wow we have a real life StormFront user on boards.

No, but what we do have is the usual pandering classes that wont allow anyone to have a view thats not 100% in support of people who migrate here for free money , but instead rush to brand everyone a racist because they dont bang on about the "poor mmigrants" and their plight.

mike65

Dissapointed that Darkman has managed to confuse 40% foreign with Nigerian. (yes it was corrected but maybe gave us an insight).

Jebus that CSO website is hard work I can find two charts one for rental subsidy and one for nationality but not the two combined.

Mike.

SoupyNorman

Tom10 wrote: »

Ok seeing as everybody in this thread has completely ignored this statement I said i'd bring it up. This is one of the sickest things I've read on these pages and i hope that whoever wrote it is banned from this website. This is the attitude that people have when they agree with Kevin Myers (who is english and completely supports the British people that collect rent allowance saying that the Irish did it aswell - but if you look far enough back over the history of Ireland you will all know that the Irish owe little to nothing to the english. And personally I hate dragging up the past but is this point its apt)

The majority of Nigerians who arrive in Ireland are asylum seakers, the majority of eastern europeans arrive here with work permits. From that very basic point its not surprising that the majority of Nigerians are on housing allowance because they are not allowed to work.

Kevin Myers knows this fact and yet completely ignores it. He does just spout awful hate in his articles. He has his beliefs and he formualtes all his articles around these, never allowing for debate of other peoples different opinions to enter into these.

So basically think about it, are eastern europeans really to be compared to asylum seakers. People who argue that they are completely miss the point and I believe when given annonimity and a platform will espouse their racist views just like "SxyDubGrrl93" - guaranteed she was one of the girls shouting abuse and the kid playing gealic under 13's a few weeks back.

Ireland wake up, colour, nationality and religion are archaic identity tags - we need to move on and see the world full of pricks that it is

*Snigger*

Flamed Diving

bravestarr082 wrote: »

*S*******

:eek:

Guy:Incognito

bravestarr082 wrote: »

*Snigger*

Stop sneaking in racist words on the sly.

Tom10 wrote: »

but if you look far enough back over the history of Ireland you will all know that the Irish owe little to nothing to the english.

"What have the Romans ever done for us"

Tom10 wrote: »

Kevin Myers (who is english

Oh, look whose flining round the racialist leaning now. Bloody raciallist. You hate the foreigners you do.

uberwolf

Myers says we're afraid to talk about this issue. Only one person who disagreed with his viewpoint actually argued the case and not the man. The rest proved his point by burying their heads in the sand and attacking Myers.

Flamed Diving

uberwolf wrote: »

Myers says we're afraid to talk about this issue. Only one person who disagreed with his viewpoint actually argued the case and not the man. The rest proved his point by burying their heads in the sand and attacking Myers.

It is not every question that deserves an answer.

Guy:Incognito

Flamed Diving wrote: »

It is not every question that deserves an answer.

A counter arguement that doesnt just slag Kevin Myers and label everyone that agrees with an immigration policy a racist would be both new to boards and at least a bit interesting.

SoupyNorman

Stekelly wrote: »

Stop sneaking in racist words on the sly.

Hey, thats a perfectly Cromulent word.

uberwolf

Flamed Diving wrote: »

It is not every question that deserves an answer.

fine. So if they've nothing to contribute, why do they post at all?

BroomBurner

Flamed Diving wrote: »

It is not every question that deserves an answer.

That is the single most ignorant thing I've ever heard.

I don't care who it was that wrote the article, the points that were brought up are at least worthy of debate. IMO, there is an immigation problem of sorts, but as a previous poster said, don't hate the people that come in (would you like to live in the hell-holes they're coming from?), hate the system itself.

Flamed Diving

BroomBurner wrote: »

That is the single most ignorant thing I've ever heard.

Actually, that is an ancient proverb, and it one of the most enlightened statements I know. Correctly translated it means that not every retard with a voice deserves to have his opinion respected. Simple.

BroomBurner

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Actually, that is an ancient proverb, and it one of the most enlightened statements I know. Correctly translated it means that not every retard with a voice deserves to have his opinion respected. Simple.

You're missing the point. If you don't want to debate the issue that the original poster posted, then keep out of the thread. Simple.

Btw, if that is "one of the most enlightened statements (you) know", you should get out and read some more.

marcsignal

Tom10 wrote: »

The majority of Nigerians who arrive in Ireland are asylum seakers..

There are flights/boats coming here direct from Nigeria ????

that's news to me

Flamed Diving

BroomBurner wrote: »

You're missing the point. If you don't want to debate the issue that the original poster posted, then keep out of the thread. Simple.

Btw, if that is "one of the most enlightened statements (you) know", you should get out and read some more.

I prefer to read indoors, outside is too noisy. And as the statement says, if you dont like my assertions, you dont have to respect them, do you? Myers and his fascist buddies are always quick to point to statistics which back up their agenda (He tries to sneakly imply that 'Nigerians' are somehow racially lazy, or that we only attract lazy Nigerians?), but they never offer solutions. Its because they dont have the balls to follow through. Its much easier to whinge on some sensationalist rag than get up and do something about it. That is why I have no respect for him.

Wreck

Stekelly wrote: »

A counter arguement that doesnt just slag Kevin Myers and label everyone that agrees with an immigration policy a racist would be both new to boards and at least a bit interesting.

There is no counter-argument because Myers does not have any argument in the first place. He leaps from the fact that 18.6% of Nigerians in this country are claiming rent allowance to the outlandish allegation that

a majority of Nigerians are not economically active at all

This in turn is followed by the malicious insinuation that they are

living off the state

Now whatever about the facts (I've looked at the report and can't find the 18.6%), the conclusions simply don't follow from the premise.

The underlying theme of the piece is that we are too afraid to discuss immigration and it's possible impact on society. This is obviously not the case. It is surely one of the most discussed political subjects of the past few years - workplace, pubs, taxi's and in the media it is constantly debated and discussed. Surely the fact that such a report on the 2006 census was commissioned and published shows that we as a a society are not ignoring the effects and problems of immigration in this country. But Myers wants to promote the view that we are ignoring the issues for fear of being called names by some liberal hippy pc-loving minority.

Orizio

uberwolf wrote: »

Myers says we're afraid to talk about this issue. Only one person who disagreed with his viewpoint actually argued the case and not the man. The rest proved his point by burying their heads in the sand and attacking Myers.

If there is one 'journalist' in this country who deserves nothing but condemnation and rejection its Kevin Myers. The man's 'arguments' are invariably cliched, superficial and sensationalist. He is a 'journalist' along the same lines of the dude who picks the page three girls in the sun.

Full stop, Europe needs immigrants if we want any kind of healthy economic outlook.

alastair

uberwolf wrote: »

Myers says we're afraid to talk about this issue. Only one person who disagreed with his viewpoint actually argued the case and not the man. The rest proved his point by burying their heads in the sand and attacking Myers.

Myers is a professional **** stirrer who knows damn well that the majority of Nigerians here have no legal means of income. In the absence of work permits how exactly are they expected to pay for housing, or perhaps they should just be thrown onto the streets?

Many/some Nigerians are economic migrants making use of the asylum mechanisms, some are legitimate asylum seekers, and the only means of establishing their claims are to investigate them. It's the governments choice to refuse a right to work during that investigation process, so why blame the rent allowance recipient for a situation that isn't of their making?

Myers is right insofar as most clear-thing people refuse to play his sort of scapegoating game by paying any attention to him... and long may that ship sail.

Guy:Incognito

Orizio wrote: »

Full stop, Europe needs immigrants if we want any kind of future economic healthy outlook.

Refugees leave their countries becuase they have nothing. Real refugees are generally the downtrodden in the particular society . Why exactly do we "need" those people? There doesnt seem to be any shortage of hardworkign economic migrants. We could just as easliy give more money to our own native freeloaders if we want rid of some cash.

marcsignal

alastair wrote: »

Many/some Nigerians are economic migrants making use of the asylum mechanisms, some are legitimate asylum seekers,

Please explain how that can be possible when there are no direct flights from Nigeria to Ireland.

wes

I love how people some how come to the conclusion that debate on immigration isn't happening, after posting an article discussing exactly that from a major Irish newspaper. Beggers belief how people come to such a conclusion.

Guy:Incognito

marcsignal wrote: »

Please explain how that can be possible when there are no direct flights from Nigeria to Ireland.

Never underestimate the power of a man with a dinghy and an oar.

AARRRGH

bravestarr082 wrote: »

The clear message he sends out from his article is 'ship them back to wence they came and slam the door behind them. Which to me is a pretty ludicrous view to have...

I disagree.

He could have been talking about anything or any group of people. The message I got was we're unable to seperate the issue from the person.

For example, recently on boards.ie I wrote a post (and a number of pleasant posts after it) saying very camp gays, i.e. queens, annoy me. I was called a homophobe and a retard, and my posts were deleted.

I find this utterly retarded as my issue was my dislike of fake people. It had nothing to do with their sexuality, but rather their persona.

It's basic stupidity that people have to bring every issue back to the race or sexuality of the person.

If Myers replaced "Nigeria" with "Galway" there would be a consensus that there are quite a lot of people from Galway who are spongers or lazy.

The fact that Nigerians are black is not the issue.

Dudess

Meh, I've no problem saying immigration has to be controlled or there'll be problems, and I've said it a number of times here. I'm not too "afraid" or too "PC" (yawn) to say it.

It's just that I don't assume every single non EU immgrant is a sponger. Some of them aren't you know...

Orizio

Firstly I said immigrants, not refugees.

Secondly, although Ireland right now may not need more immigrants or refugees, the majority of European countries are entering a disastrous situation where we will have too many old people(too early) on pensions and too few young men/women being produced to make up a healthy labour market, particurly in comparison to China and the US. And if this is a problem in France or Germany, then its a problem for Ireland as the EU's prosperity and strength is essential for Ireland's econmic well being.

As I said, immigrants are the future of Europe.

Flamed Diving

I dont see how people from Nigeria could be lazy, when the very idea of a homogenous Nigeria is vague to say the very least. Its unedumacated bigotry at its finest.

alastair

marcsignal wrote: »

Please explain how that can be possible when there are no direct flights from Nigeria to Ireland.

Oh wise up. An asylum seeker presenting themselves in Ireland is entitled to due process of investigation. That many Nigerians successfully attain asylum here should tell you something about the legal necessity for direct flights.

Orizio

Dudess wrote: »

Meh, I've no problem saying immigration has to be controlled or there'll be problems, and I've said it a number of times here. I'm not too "afraid" or too "PC" (yawn) to say it.

It's just that I don't assume every single non EU immgrant is a sponger. Some of them aren't you know...

Nobody said there doesn't have to be controls on, or there will be problems with, immigration. The essential problem with Myers is his generalisations and conclusions, usually backed up with nothing other then random facts and spacious arguments.

marcsignal

Stekelly wrote: »

Never underestimate the power of a man with a dinghy and an oar.

Very True, because it's the only way any Nigerian asylum claim in Ireland could be legitimate, and consequently Nigeria should clean up at rowing in the olympics if that's how they actually get here

alastair wrote: »

Oh wise up. An asylum seeker presenting themselves in Ireland is entitled to due process of investigation. That many Nigerians successfully attain asylum here should tell you something about the legal necessity for direct flights.

so why don't they claim asylum in Spain or Italy ? might it have something to do with what's on offer here by comparison ? and the fact you could sail a fully laden aircraft carrier through the loopholes in our non-existant mickey mouse policy ?