Charles Darwin Vs Religion ?

krd · 05-08-2008 02:51AM

DeVore wrote: »

I am educated and I'm also an agnostic. Theism is becoming dangerous when it purports to over shadow that which we can prove in this world.

Darwin is correct and can quite easily be shown to be correct with math and computer models in tandem with observed biological observations. Its not even close.

Whats happening lately is a US-centric attempt to spray so much "ink" into the water that everything is obscured so that the various religions' embarrasment over various different creation myths can be hidden. If you've been banging on about the Garden of Eden and the Flood for centuries and then some clever clogs says "oh, i can show that thats not what happened", do you really think they are going to say "oh, um... its a fair cop".

Seriously, its degrading to those of real spirituality that anyone tries to put forward these "theories" of the earth being 6k years old or of Man springing fully formed from the head of God (to mix religious sources).

It needs to be fought at every step from being introduced as science in our schools and accepted as an alternative to geniune and painstakingly proven science.

DeV.

What we need to do is get religon out of schools in Ireland. A complete ban of all religon and "spirituality" from all state owned media,, and even privately owned media.

Do you know, that to get your kid into most schools in Ireland you have to go through the fiasco of having the child baptised.

All state schools should be automatically non theisistic. And religous symbols and dress should not be tolerated.

That kid in the you tube video, his science is complete bull****.
He thinks the sun burns hydrogen with santa claus operating the furnace. He has no understanding of gravity ,, Centrifugal and Centripetal forces,, his moon orbit theory.

Any right minded thinking person would want to smash his face in and kill his parents. Maybe the sexual abuse he has to go through at his school has done all this to him... but for societies own benefit,, he should be sent to a re-education centre for re-education (cambodian style)

This child should die before he can infect other children.

It's time we started to burn all the religous books.

I'm not joking,,,, let's burn their books before they can burn our books,,,because they really want to burn us.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 05-08-2008 02:53AM

is this trolling?
It looks like trolling to me..

DeVore · 05-08-2008 02:53AM

By the way, the world is by no means too perfect.

The eye, which is ironically often used as being too complex and perfect to have developed by chance, is APPALINGLY designed. Its wired back to front with the light receptors having their nerve endings coming out TOWARDS the pupil, necessitating a "blind spot" which is where the bundle of receptor nerves "dive through" the retina to head towards the brain.

Any half decent designer would have wired them at the back to avoid the need for such a blind spot.

There are a hundred other "bad design flaws"....

DeV.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 05-08-2008 02:54AM

like cancer, and small penis's.

Kernel · 05-08-2008 02:56AM

krd wrote: »

Any right minded thinking person would want to smash his face in and kill his parents. Maybe the sexual abuse he has to go through at his school has done all this to him... but for societies own benefit,, he should be sent to a re-education centre for re-education (cambodian style)

This child should die before he can infect other children.

It's time we started to burn all the religous books.

I'm not joking,,,, let's burn their books before they can burn our books,,,because they really want to burn us.

I'm going to light a candle in mass for you. God bless brother.

hussey · 05-08-2008 03:02AM

What does the Pope believe?
Does he have to believe the bible in the literal form? (i.e. god made the world in 6 days)

Kernel · 05-08-2008 03:03AM

DeVore wrote: »

By the way, the world is by no means too perfect.

The eye, which is ironically often used as being too complex and perfect to have developed by chance, is APPALINGLY designed. Its wired back to front with the light receptors having their nerve endings coming out TOWARDS the pupil, necessitating a "blind spot" which is where the bundle of receptor nerves "dive through" the retina to head towards the brain.

Any half decent designer would have wired them at the back to avoid the need for such a blind spot.

There are a hundred other "bad design flaws"....

DeV.

True, I remember hearing about that and other design flaws. I wouldn't say that the Bible claims that we are perfect, merely that we are in God's image and that we aspired to be like the Big Lad. Personally I have my problems with organised religions, and the taint that may have been put on the historical facts and message.

Humans are not perfect, far from it, but the chemistry and physics that allows such a thing as this universe to exist, and the quantum physics of our own minds... The physics and chemistry of the universe itself is too perfect for me to believe in chance. I always found Einstein's quote of 'God was not playing dice' fascinating considering his atheistic beliefs...

One Cold Hand · 05-08-2008 05:41AM

Kernel wrote: »

organised religions

I always find this phrase funny! Are Christians not organised?

Zillah · 05-08-2008 06:35AM

krd wrote: »

What's so educated about your Atheism,,, is it some kind of science.

Ponder for a moment the nature of claims and scepticism. There are an infinite number of things that can be claimed. Here's some examples: I'm a unicorn. You are an alien pretending to be a human. Vampires are real. Your wife is dealing heroin to children.

I'd imagine most people would approach such claims with doubt. Dare I say most people would outright dismiss them. If you consider me a lunatic or a liar for claiming to be a unicorn, you're quite right. I have no evidence. You should laugh me out of the room. If we are to have any hope of reaching correct conclusions about the nature of the universe then we have to dismiss claims that have no evidence and accept those that have lots. Right now God has no evidence. All that wishy washy magical crap has no evidence.

When someone makes the claim "The universe was created by an omnipotent entity outside space, time and causality" or whatever wacko variation is popular this century, I will dismiss it as the unfounded twaddle it is. I will dismiss it just as easily as I dismiss unicorn claims because I won't allow a few hundred years of societal domination on behalf of monotheistic cults to trick me into giving such claims undue credence.

krd wrote:

Why can't an individual pick and choose what they want to believe in?

Because that would be knowingly, criminally, insultingly stupid. Its dangerous and quite frankly I'd be worried for the mental health of someone who can arbitrarily pick and choose what to believe.

Kernel wrote:

Humans are not perfect, far from it, but the chemistry and physics that allows such a thing as this universe to exist, and the quantum physics of our own minds... The physics and chemistry of the universe itself is too perfect for me to believe in chance.

I suspect you're walking into a useless circular argument here. If chance cannot beget an organised universe, then you are proposing that artifice is required. However, artifice requires organisation etc, welcome to step 1 again.

SimpleSam06 · 05-08-2008 09:25AM

Creationism is the product of grassroots factions of the protestant church in the US. This works for them on three levels:

1. They take the bible as the literal truth, which is a natural growth from their original position of ignoring the pope in favour of learning about it for yourself.

2. By equating evolution to a rival cult, they can deal with it on the same level that they deal with rival sects - it brings the playing field to them.

3. Its damn good press and publicity, which they would otherwise not get. So even discussing it seriously is a help to them.

The official position of the catholic church (and the pope) is that it sees no conflict between its teachings and evolution, as I recall.

Quazzie · 05-08-2008 09:43AM

Personally My belief is that its not what you believe in that makes religion work but the actual believing part. The belief that there is a greater good and that we should all try to do our best is what is important. Its when the two set of beliefs conflict to an extent where they want to do harm to the other then that is where the biggest problems lie.

I consider myself Catholic but don't take the Bible as being literal fact, more as a guide as to how to run our lives. The Bible has being writtena dn rewritten over the years to an extent that is distorted to suit individuals needs down through the ages.

Canis Lupus · 05-08-2008 09:47AM

There is no god.

I win.

bringitdown · 05-08-2008 09:50AM

Quazzie2002 wrote: »

Personally My belief is that its not what you believe in that makes religion work but the actual believing part. The belief that there is a greater good and that we should all try to do our best is what is important. Its when the two set of beliefs conflict to an extent where they want to do harm to the other then that is where the biggest problems lie.

I consider myself Catholic but don't take the Bible as being literal fact, more as a guide as to how to run our lives. The Bible has being writtena dn rewritten over the years to an extent that is distorted to suit individuals needs down through the ages.

How do you reconcile that ... I mean the (Roman) Catholic Church - Pope, Cardinals etc claim to hold the right to decide magisterium based on the guidance of the Holy Spirit revealed thru ancient scripture (Bible) and tradition.

As a 'Catholic' you don't have that right. (Unless you are the pope?)

Pompey Magnus · 05-08-2008 10:31AM

Religion and evolution are not mutually exclusive. Of course it is possible (if not highly unlikely) that a god created the earth and started life from simple organisms which developed to what we have today. However this adds an extra, unlikely step to the process.

A comparison I can think of is the JFK assasination. The no-God evolution theory is comparable to the rational explanation that a lone gunman, Lee Harvey Oswald, shot JFK. A simple explanation with nothing particularly unbelievable or illogical in it.

The religious evolution theory I think is comparable to the irrational explanation that J Edgar Hoover is a shapeshifting alien who morphed to look identical to Oswald, shot Kennedy, went into the Dallas streets acing suspiciously, was beamed up to the mothership before transforming back into his normal appearance and beaming down to FBI HQ, whilst police arrest the real Lee Harvey Oswald who was actually innocent. Technically it is possible, but highly unlikely. You can believe it if you like but it isn't neccesary, there is a perfectly simple explanation without any supernatural elements. So too with evolution.

Dave! · 05-08-2008 11:59AM

Canis Lupus wrote: »

There is no god.

I win.

*thumbs up*

Joseph Kuhr · 05-08-2008 12:22PM

The thing about Darwin is that his work "The Origin Of Species..." was a theory. What annoys me is when people talk about Darwins theory as if it was still just that, and argue that it is a form of faith.

Lets set the record straight, Darwins theory was proven when we discovered DNA. As the years go by and scientist map more and more genomes and learn more and more about DNA and our genetic coding we get more and more evidence to back up his theory. Evolution and survival of the fittest is a proven fact.

It does nothing to disprove the existence of God. But it does create a universe in which God does not need to exist in order to explain things. Go ahead and believe in God if you like, but why does that have to mean not believing in evolution?

Seachmall · 05-08-2008 01:17PM

Joseph Kuhr wrote: »

Go ahead and believe in God if you like, but why does that have to mean not believing in evolution?

Of course you can believe in both God and evolution but this topic is about Religion, more precisely they Church who promote the bible as the word of God and in the bible it states we were built as we are today.

You can't just say its a metaphorical story, then you're choosing in what you believe and according to the bible you take it all as fact or you go to hell. If you do not believe the word of God and that he created us as we are you are not following Christian beliefs and are not a true Christian.

So no, you can't believe in the Church and te theory of evolution. You can however think for yourself.

Cactus Col · 05-08-2008 01:21PM

Seachmall wrote: »

So no, you can't believe in the Church and the theory of evolution. You can however think for yourself.

Which Church?

Fad · 05-08-2008 01:22PM

Cactus Col wrote: »

Which Church?

Id imagine he's refering to the catholic church.

Cactus Col · 05-08-2008 01:24PM

Fad wrote: »

Id imagine he's refering to the catholic church.

Really? Don't think they have too much of a problem with it.

Before people attack the Vatican for their stance on evolution, I think people should first find out what the Vatican's stance is.

Ignorance isn't limited to those who believe in a God.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,17162341-13762,00.html

"Cardinal Paul Poupard, head of the Pontifical Council for Culture, said the Genesis description of how God created the universe and Darwin's theory of evolution were "perfectly compatible" if the Bible were read correctly.

His statement was a clear attack on creationist campaigners in the US, who see evolution and the Genesis account as mutually exclusive."

Seachmall · 05-08-2008 01:24PM

Fad wrote: »

Id imagine he's refering to the catholic church.

Indeed.

Really? Don't think they have too much of a problem with it.

Another case of the Church altering the meaning of the Bible to suit the times.

50 years ago he would have been banished from the church for making that claim but seens as science has shoved a hot poke up their ass on this one things need to change, again.

Fad · 05-08-2008 01:30PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiZdSoQhLxU

MWA HAHAH

Cactus Col · 05-08-2008 01:38PM

Can't see that video in work ...

Seachmall wrote: »

Indeed.Another case of the Church altering the meaning of the Bible to suit the times.

50 years ago he would have been banished from the church for making that claim but seens as science has shoved a hot poke up their ass on this one things need to change, again.

Are you just making another assumption there?

I'm sure the church would argue that science helps give a greater understanding of what was written in the bible.

I know it's trendy to hate the church, but educate yourself about it before you start attacking it.

Seachmall · 05-08-2008 01:44PM

Cactus Col wrote: »

Can't see that video in work ...

Are you just making another assumption there?

I know it's trendy to hate the church, but educate yourself about it before you start attacking it.

No, the Church promoted many things that were in the bible or that they did in the name of God that would get the vatican blown up nowadays. Out of the hundreds of 'laws' in the bible we follow few of them, and with the ones we are taught we're not even told the whole thing.
5th commandment: You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,
7th commandment: You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name

Jesus!! We're all going to hell!!!

Or the story of moses (Exodus 2:11-12):One day, after Moses had grown up, he went out to where his own people were and watched them at their hard labor. He saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his own people. 12 Glancing this way and that and seeing no one, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand.

Didn't hear those bits in 3rd class did ya?

Kernel · 05-08-2008 01:50PM

Joseph Kuhr wrote: »

Lets set the record straight, Darwins theory was proven when we discovered DNA. As the years go by and scientist map more and more genomes and learn more and more about DNA and our genetic coding we get more and more evidence to back up his theory. Evolution and survival of the fittest is a proven fact.

It does nothing to disprove the existence of God. But it does create a universe in which God does not need to exist in order to explain things. Go ahead and believe in God if you like, but why does that have to mean not believing in evolution?

Of course, I do not dispute Darwins evolutionary findings, but ask yourself why a chemical concoction should form proteins, which should then become simple life forms eventually leading to higher reasoning and consciousness? Chance? To believe in chance being responsible for all that is simply too far a leap for me to make, and as a result I believe there is a higher creator or purpose to it all. Like the architect in the Matrix.

Joseph Kuhr · 05-08-2008 01:54PM

Seachmall wrote: »

Of course you can believe in both God and evolution but this topic is about Religion, more precisely they Church who promote the bible as the word of God and in the bible it states we were built as we are today.

You can't just say its a metaphorical story, then you're choosing in what you believe and according to the bible you take it all as fact or you go to hell. If you do not believe the word of God and that he created us as we are you are not following Christian beliefs and are not a true Christian.

So no, you can't believe in the Church and te theory of evolution. You can however think for yourself.

OK. You can believe in a creator and still believe in evolution. Granted it would be unusual and to do so would show that you do not understand evolution but all the same, evolution does not disprove the notion of a creator. We have gone a long way in understanding everything since the big bang, but nothing about the catalyst and if someone wants to believe that the catalyst was a higher being then so be it, we've nothing to disprove that notion.

Seachmall · 05-08-2008 01:54PM

Kernel wrote: »

Of course, I do not dispute Darwins evolutionary findings, but ask yourself why a chemical concoction should form proteins, which should then become simple life forms eventually leading to higher reasoning and consciousness? Chance? To believe in chance being responsible for all that is simply too far a leap for me to make, and as a result I believe there is a higher creator or purpose to it all. Like the architect in the Matrix.

Evolution takes chance out of it, thats the point. The ones that work are kept, the ones that don't die away.

1 in a billion chances happen every day but the fact that they did happen means you don't think about it. What are the odds you would view this forum the same time as me? I have a hundred other things to be doing, and I'm sure you do too.

Kernel · 05-08-2008 01:55PM

Seachmall wrote: »

7th commandment: You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name

Jesus!! We're all going to hell!!!

You could interpret that as someone who carries out un-Christian acts in the name of the Christian God (eg. crusades), rather than simply swearing.

Seachmall · 05-08-2008 01:57PM

Kernel wrote: »

You could interpret that as someone who carries out un-Christian acts in the name of the Christian God (eg. crusades), rather than simply swearing.

Fair enough but then the entire Church is going to hell so why would you want to associate yourselfs with them? Remember the Crusades ***shudders***

Kernel · 05-08-2008 01:57PM

Seachmall wrote: »

Evolution takes chance out of it, thats the point. The ones that work are kept, the ones that don't die away.

1 in a billion chances happen every day but the fact that they did happen means you don't think about it. What are the odds you would view this forum the same time as me? I have a hundred other things to be doing, and I'm sure you do too.

Why should there be evolution though? Why should there be a perfectly organised universe in the first place? Why should we evolve to have consciousness?

Charles Darwin Vs Religion ?

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