Christianity or Islam? Which one to believe?

PDN · 21-07-2008 04:58PM

Bduffman wrote: »

Then you are part of a tiny minority. So you parents were atheists? Or were they simply non-practising? Because if its the latter, any belief they had was bound to filter down. You are a christian because, I presume, you live in a majority christian country. Or is it just coincidence that you 'became' a christian?

I was raised as an atheist. The fact that I lived in a so-called majority Christian country certainly hindered my conversion to Christianity. I was so turned off by the hypocrisy and narrow-mindedness of mainstream Christianity that I would rather have embraced any other religion. However, upon examining the available evidence, Christianity made more sense than any other option I could see.

Are you seriously arguing that people who are raised in a non-Christian society and not been raised in the faith are therefore not going to become Christians?

philologos · 21-07-2008 05:17PM

PDN wrote: »

Are you seriously arguing that people who are raised in a non-Christian society and not been raised in the faith are therefore not going to become Christians?

Well if he was all he would have to do is substitute Atheist / Agnostic in the place of Christian, and apply it to his own situation to see that that was false.

Fanny Cradock · 21-07-2008 07:31PM

Nothingcompares wrote: »

I wasn't challenging the correctness of your post but perhaps I inferred a condescending and derogatory tone. Was that your intention ?

Not at all. I'm usually quite clear when I want to be obnoxious!

Tar.Aldarion · 21-07-2008 07:57PM

PDN wrote: »

Are you seriously arguing that people who are raised in a non-Christian society and not been raised in the faith are therefore not going to become Christians?

For a majority, yes. There are converts later in life but where and when you are born has a big affect on what religion you are.

Schuhart · 21-07-2008 08:04PM

hunnybunny wrote: »

When comparing the bible and the Quran, something that hits me is that the Quran has never been changed since it was written.

As I understand it (and I’m just a gob****e, so this is more just thoughts you might want to investigate in your own study) the Satanic Verses episode mentioned by PDN is a traditional story told about Mohammed, rather than something that can be positively verified as having happened. I don’t think there are actually copies of the Quran with those verses in them, and then later versions with them removed.

That said, the utterly unchanged Quran is a bit of a myth. There are variations between the text as we know it now and inscriptions on early buildings. Scriptural analysis also suggests later changes – including Mohammed’s name. Where the Quran seemed to benefit was that an early Caliph was organised enough to establish a process through which a standardised text was compiled, with all other texts being destroyed.

Hence, the situation is more that we know about the various religious texts that didn’t make it into the Bible, but all we know about the alternative versions of the Quran is that they were destroyed.

That said, we can probably take it that the Quran is a reasonable account of Mohammed's visions in the same way that we can take the Gospels to be a reasonable account of what early Christians said about Jesus.

Wicknight wrote: »

why would anyone believe a bunch of humans over an angel sent by God?

Is the choice not more between whether you believe a bunch of humans who say 'we met God' or an individual who said 'I met an angel sent by God'? I'm not confident that we've correctly identified the comparison here.

And surely, in this context, to the extent that what’s at issue is the career of Jesus, the Quran account would be simply irrelevant. We need to say no more about it than Mohammed would have an awareness of Jesus from the Christian communities that he knew, and so there’s no great mystery about where he would have heard about the concept of a virgin birth or the crucifixion.

The issue is purely one about the extent to which we feel early Christians (leaving aside for a moment how ‘early’ is early) might have written an inaccurate account. Which I think is a space that cannot be bridged, as its quite clear that the tale could have grown in the telling, even in the space of a few decades (and, as I said, leaving aside for a moment if 'early' might involve a couple of centuries). Equally, however, it seems open to someone to maintain that they feel no significant distortion occurred. There seems to me to be no solid way of closing that gap.

As I see it, it simply comes back to that argument that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. To me, the Quran is clearly nonsense, while the Bible falls well short of the level of proof I’d expect a fair minded deity to provide if he really wanted us to pay heed and avoid damnation.

But then, maybe he’s not a fair minded deity.

Bduffman · 22-07-2008 10:05AM

PDN wrote: »

Are you seriously arguing that people who are raised in a non-Christian society and not been raised in the faith are therefore not going to become Christians?

Well more or less yes - and the numbers back me up. Its why you are not a muslim or hindu or buddhist. You may have been raised as an atheist but you had exposure to christianity as we all do in western society. Therefore you became a christian & not anything else. If you were raised in Iran you would probably be muslim - not because it is the right religion - but because of circumstance.
So are you seriously suggesting that the chances of you following any other religion was just as likely as you following christianity?

PDN · 22-07-2008 10:11AM

Bduffman wrote: »

Well more or less yes - and the numbers back me up. Its why you are not a muslim or hindu or buddhist. You may have been raised as an atheist but you had exposure to christianity as we all do in western society. Therefore you became a christian & not anything else. If you were raised in Iran you would probably be muslim - not because it is the right religion - but because of circumstance.

So, the tens of millions of people in China who, despite being raised in an atheist society with Confucian overtones have converted to Christianity, they are the exceptions that prove the rule?

BTW, the numbers don't back you up. Conversion rates worldwide demonstrate that people born into another religious environment are more likely to convert to Christianity than vice versa.

So are you seriously suggesting that the chances of you following any other religion was just as likely as you following christianity?

No, all other things being equal I would be more likely to be a Christian because it makes sense on so many levels. Also, part of conversion is the work of the Holy Spirit convincing a person of truth - that could not happen in another religion, so Christianity was more likely.

Dave! · 22-07-2008 10:43AM

PDN wrote: »

That would have been somewhat difficult since many Islamic scholars teach that Mohammed was illiterate.

Don't let a barrier as trivial as that turn you off Mohammed! Sure Jesus was no water strider, yet he crossed that lake like he was on a surf board!

TravelJunkie · 22-07-2008 12:09PM

Also, part of conversion is the work of the Holy Spirit convincing a person of truth - that could not happen in another religion, so Christianity was more likely.[/QUOTE]

What PDN says about the Holy Spirit is key. All contributors to the bible were inspired by the Holy Spirit, and even today when pastors / teachers go up and talk they are inspired by the Holy Spirit. Hopefully the people who chose what to put in the bible were also inspired by the Holy Spirit ( I trust they were).

Another point about Mohammed and him being a prophet - he wasn't the last prophet. If you're going to go with the theory that Jesus ws a prophet, then Mohammed, etc you have to continue to look for prophets and as far as I know, Baha lula (don't know if I spelt it right but it is the Bahai faith that believe in him) was the last prophet.

So if you're going to reject Christianity (in my view the coming of the Son of God put an end to the need for more prophets, so any other prophet claiming to talk on behalf of the ONE and only God must be false), you may as well look into Bahai as well.

Zombrex · 22-07-2008 12:29PM

PDN wrote: »

So, the tens of millions of people in China who, despite being raised in an atheist society with Confucian overtones have converted to Christianity, they are the exceptions that prove the rule?

You seem to be ignoring that a) Christianity is still a small religion in China and b) Christianity has had a long history in China.

Also how would you explain the Muslims in China (nearly as many a christians), or the Buddists (far more than christians), if the Holy Spirit is key to conversions?

Bduffman · 22-07-2008 02:11PM

PDN wrote: »

So, the tens of millions of people in China who, despite being raised in an atheist society with Confucian overtones have converted to Christianity, they are the exceptions that prove the rule?

Incorrect. China never was an atheist society - it just had / has an atheist government.

PDN wrote: »

BTW, the numbers don't back you up. Conversion rates worldwide demonstrate that people born into another religious environment are more likely to convert to Christianity than vice versa.

Yes - but they were raised in a religious environment. Personally it doesn't really matter to me what non-existent god people believe in.

PDN wrote: »

No, all other things being equal I would be more likely to be a Christian because it makes sense on so many levels. Also, part of conversion is the work of the Holy Spirit convincing a person of truth - that could not happen in another religion, so Christianity was more likely.

The fact is that an individual who is brought up in one religion is far more likely to stay with that religion as they are to convert - thats what I mean by the numbers backing me up. You believe you are a christian because 'it makes sense on so many levels'. So its just coincidence that you happen to live in a christian country? Would you be just as likely to come to that conclusion if you lived in Iran? I don't see the 'holy spirit' convincing too many people there.

PDN · 22-07-2008 02:28PM

Wicknight wrote: »

You seem to be ignoring that a) Christianity is still a small religion in China and b) Christianity has had a long history in China.

If by small you mean 100,000,000 people and close to 10% of the population then we are agreed about its smallness.

A long history in China matters not a jot when a minority religion is trampled under the Cultural Revolution.

Also how would you explain the Muslims in China (nearly as many a christians), or the Buddists (far more than christians), if the Holy Spirit is key to conversions?

I never claimed that every religious conversion must be the work of the Holy Spirit. People convert faiths for a multitude of reasons. However, the work of the Holy Spirit in receiving Christ is one factor in explaining why, on a global basis, there are more conversions to Christianity than to other religions.

As for the Buddhists and Muslims in China, they actually support my criticisms of Bduffman's theory. The Buddhists and Muslims in China, like the Christians, prove that brainwashing people into a particular faith (atheism in China's case) does not stop them choosing to embrace another faith in later life.

PDN · 22-07-2008 02:34PM

Bduffman wrote: »

Incorrect. China never was an atheist society - it just had / has an atheist government.

Each time I visit China I meet hundreds of people who disagree with you - but perhaps you know more about China than the Chinese do themselves?

Personally it doesn't really matter to me what non-existent god people believe in

So that's why you're posting in a thread about whether someone should believe in Islam or Christianity? :rolleyes:

Zombrex · 22-07-2008 03:17PM

PDN wrote: »

If by small you mean 100,000,000 people and close to 10% of the population then we are agreed about its smallness.

Yes I would consider 10% of the population small and consistent with the history of Christianity in China, especially considering Islam is put at between 4% and 9% (I notice you are rounding up with your Christianity statistics) and some estimates put Buddhist cultural adherence as high as 75% of the population. Perhaps the holy spirit wants everyone to be Buddhist.

PDN wrote: »

A long history in China matters not a jot when a minority religion is trampled under the Cultural Revolution.

The Cultural Revolution lasted 13 years PDN. You make it sound like it went on for decades. In 1979 and 1980 the Chinese government reinstated the official Christian churches.

While Christianity no doubt suffered terribly during the Cultural Revolution the idea that Christianity was some how wiped from China is a gross misrepresentation of history, though I can see how it would serve the missionary/conversion propaganda that you seem to be involved in.

Christianity had a long established place in Chinese society and culture, that survived the Cultural Revolution

PDN wrote: »

However, the work of the Holy Spirit in receiving Christ is one factor in explaining why, on a global basis, there are more conversions to Christianity than to other religions.

is it?

you attribute the "holy spirit" to the high level of Christian conversion when at a particular point in time those are the highest statistically

I wonder would you invoke the supernatural deity of other religions if they, at a particularly point in history, were a religion with the highest conversion rate at that present moment in time.

or would you invoke "multitude of reasons"

PDN wrote: »

As for the Buddhists and Muslims in China, they actually support my criticisms of Bduffman's theory. The Buddhists and Muslims in China, like the Christians, prove that brainwashing people into a particular faith (atheism in China's case) does not stop them choosing to embrace another faith in later life.

See that is the thing. Your assertion that religion was wiped out from China during communist rule, and that since the 1990s it has reestablished itself despite being an alien concept in an non-religious culture and society, doesn't hold up.

robindch · 22-07-2008 03:21PM

PDN wrote: »

People convert faiths for a multitude of reasons.

Indeed. It's a sentiment which Gibbon memorably recorded in his infamous Chapter XV:

Edward Gibbon wrote:

Our curiosity is naturally prompted to inquire by what means the Christian faith obtained so remarkable a victory over the established religions of the earth. To this inquiry an obvious but unsatisfactory answer may be returned; that it was owing to the convincing evidence of the doctrine itself, and to the ruling providence of its great Author.

But as truth and reason seldom find so favourable a reception in the world, and as the wisdom of Providence frequently condescends to use the passions of the human heart, and the general circumstances of mankind, as instruments to execute its purpose, we may still be permitted, though with becoming submission, to ask, not indeed what were the first, but what were the secondary causes of the rapid growth of the Christian church?

...and spends the next few chapters sketching one series of answers to that really-quite-interesting question.

Bduffman · 22-07-2008 03:52PM

PDN wrote: »

Each time I visit China I meet hundreds of people who disagree with you - but perhaps you know more about China than the Chinese do themselves?

Right - so lets see if I can get this straight - as soon as the communists came to power - everyone just automatically became atheist? I don't need to go to China to realise that is just not true. (And thats based on logic not blind faith

)

PDN wrote: »

So that's why you're posting in a thread about whether someone should believe in Islam or Christianity? :rolleyes:

Well of course. Isn't that obvious?

BrianCalgary · 22-07-2008 06:49PM

Bduffman wrote: »

Right - so lets see if I can get this straight - as soon as the communists came to power - everyone just automatically became atheist? I don't need to go to China to realise that is just not true. (And thats based on logic not blind faith )

I don't think PDN ever made that claim.

Flamed Diving · 22-07-2008 07:54PM

OP, you may be interested in the Bahá'í Faith. It might be right up your alley.

The Bahá'í Faith is a religion founded by Bahá'u'lláh in nineteenth-century Persia.[1] There are an estimated five to six million Bahá'ís around the world in more than 200 countries and territories.[2][3]

Bahá'í teachings emphasize the spiritual oneness of humanity and the underlying unity of the major world religions. Religious history is seen to have unfolded through the influence of a series of divinely sent messengers, each of whom established a religion that was suited to the needs of the time. These messengers have included Abraham, Moses, Zoroaster, the Buddha, Krishna, Jesus, Muhammad and, most recently, the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh. In Bahá'í belief, each messenger taught that other messengers would follow, and Bahá'u'lláh's claims and teachings fulfil the eschatological promises of previous scriptures. Humanity is understood to be involved in a process of collective evolution, and the need of the present time is for the gradual establishment of peace, justice and unity on a global scale.[4]

The word "Bahá'í" (/bæhɒːʔiː/, /bəˈhai/, Persian: بهائی) is used either as an adjective to refer to the Bahá'í Faith or as a term for a follower of Bahá'u'lláh, and the word is not a noun meaning the religion as a whole. It is derived from the Arabic Bahá’, meaning "glory" or "splendour".[5] "Bahaism" (or "Baha'ism") has been used in the past but is fading from use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1'%C3%AD_Faith

hunnybunny · 22-07-2008 11:37PM

Interesting replies

The guys in the Christian forum are hardly going to recommend another religion to be fair . (Also the Islam forum would be no different also.)

As for which one to choose, well I think that something that you can only answer for yourself. Best to follows your own conscious on it, or even cast a wider net if you like, to look at other belief systems.

Oh yes, I know the views will be pointed either towards Islam or Christianity or neither one. I wanted to hear opinions on why one would consider either faith.
I wouldn t mind getting a point of view on the Islamic forum. Thats an idea.

Flamed Diving

OP, you may be interested in the Bahá'í Faith. It might be right up your alley.

Yes, I have heard of it. One of my work collegues in the UAE is one. Its interesting, but I don think so.

kelly1 · 23-07-2008 02:39PM

Hello Hunnybunny, I've not read all the replies from various people but I'd like to make a few points.

To me, discovering Christ is exactly like the story of the valuable pearl in Matthew:-

Mt 13:45 Again the kingdom of heaven is like to a merchant seeking good pearls. 46 Who when he had found one pearl of great price, went his way, and sold all that he had, and bought it.

Here's a few quotes about Jesus' mission and who He claims to be:-

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word [Jesus], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world, to judge the world, but that the world may be saved by him. 18 He that believeth in him is not judged. But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: because the light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the light: for their works were evil. 20 For every one that doth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, that his works may not be reproved.

Jn 3:36 He that believeth in the Son, hath life everlasting; but he that believeth not the Son, shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Jn 4:13 Jesus answered, and said to her: Whosoever drinketh of this water, shall thirst again; but he that shall drink of the water that I will give him, shall not thirst for ever: 14 But the water that I will give him, shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into life everlasting.

Jn 6:47 Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. 52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. 53 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. 55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

Jn 10:1 Amen, amen I say to you: He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up another way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4 And when he hath let out his own sheep, he goeth before them: and the sheep follow him, because they know his voice. 5 But a stranger they follow not, but fly from him, because they know not the voice of strangers.
6 This proverb Jesus spoke to them. But they understood not what he spoke to them. 7 Jesus therefore said to them again: Amen, amen I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All others, as many as have come, are thieves and robbers: and the sheep heard them not. 9 I am the door. By me, if any man enter in, he shall be saved: and he shall go in, and go out, and shall find pastures. 10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I am come that they may have life, and may have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd giveth his life for his sheep. 12 But the hireling, and he that is not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and flieth: and the wolf catcheth, and scattereth the sheep: 13 And the hireling flieth, because he is a hireling: and he hath no care for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know mine, and mine know me. 15 As the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father: and I lay down my life for my sheep.

Jn 10:30 I and the Father are one.

Jn 10:46 I am come a light into the world; that whosoever believeth in me, may not remain in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and keep them not, I do not judge him: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that despiseth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him; the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father who sent me, he gave me commandment what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting. The things therefore that I speak, even as the Father said unto me, so do I speak.

Jn 14:6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

John 15:1 I am the true vine; and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me, that beareth not fruit, he will take away: and every one that beareth fruit, he will purge it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now you are clean by reason of the word, which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine: you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.

In light of what Jesus says about Him being the only way to the Father and that He is the Way, the Truth and the Life and that we must abide in Christ in Him in us, how then can what Mohammed wrote be true? Why would there be any need for another prophet?

Why does Mohammed deny that Jesus was crucified or that Jesus is God the Son incarnate? The reason is simple. The spirit who appeared to Mohammed clearly wanted to draw attention away from Jesus and make us doubt who and what Jesus claimed to be.

I haven't read the Quran and I don't need to. I know I will never find another religion which shows the same love, mercy and compassion that God has for His people.

Re your question on the Holy Trinity and One God, I like to explain it like this.
The Son is like a perfect projection or mirror image of God's the Father's idea of Himself. The Son "proceeds" or flows from the Father. The Father is the perfect giver and the Son is the perfect receiver.

The Holy Spirit then "proceeds" from both the Father and the Son and is the result of the mutual perfect love between the Father and the Son. This love is so perfect that it "creates" another Person which we call the Holy Spirit.

The link between each of the three Persons is so perfect and intimate that there is only One God with the Father being the ultimate origin of the other two Persons. But each Person still has an individual identity and each possesses all the perfections of the Father and so all are equal.

I hope that makes it a bit clearer

God bless,
Noel.

Zombrex · 23-07-2008 02:59PM

kelly1 wrote: »

In light of what Jesus says about Him being the only way to the Father and that He is the Way, the Truth and the Life and that we must abide in Christ in Him in us, how then can what Mohammed wrote be true?

That is the point, according to Muslims (based on the revelations to Mohammad) Jesus didn't say those things.

kelly1 wrote: »

Why does Mohammed deny that Jesus was crucified or that Jesus is God the Son incarnate? The reason is simple. The spirit who appeared to Mohammed clearly wanted to draw attention away from Jesus and make us doubt who and what Jesus claimed to be.

Well yes again that is the point. Muslims believe Jesus wasn't who the early Christians claimed he was, and people moving to worship him as a god is moving people away from God himself.

kelly1 wrote: »

The link between each of the three Persons is so perfect and intimate that there is only One God with the Father being the ultimate origin of the other two Persons. But each Person still has an individual identity and each possesses all the perfections of the Father and so all are equal.

All of which is considered heretical nonsense to the Muslims and most Jews. There is one God, the God the Jews knew. And considering it was the Jewish religion that all this is based on it does appear that Muslims are closer to the original Abrahamic religion than Christians are in this regard.

Often quoted by Jews in response to claims of Jesus.

Deuteronomy 13
13:2 and the sign or wonder should come to pass concerning what he said to you, namely, “Let us follow other gods” – gods whom you have not previously known – “and let us serve them.”
13:3 You must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer, for the Lord your God will be testing you to see if you love him with all your mind and being.
13:4 You must follow the Lord your God and revere only him; and you must observe his commandments, obey him, serve him, and remain loyal to him.
13:5 As for that prophet or dreamer, he must be executed because he encouraged rebellion against the Lord your God who brought you from the land of Egypt, redeeming you from that place of slavery, and because he has tried to entice you from the way the Lord your God has commanded you to go. In this way you must purge out evil from within.

Jesus tries to get around this by claiming to be God, which is heretical a fact that he tries to get around again by claiming to be the Son of God, which is also heretical.

kelly1 · 23-07-2008 06:36PM

Wicknight wrote: »

That is the point, according to Muslims (based on the revelations to Mohammad) Jesus didn't say those things.

If that is true then the Quran is self-contradictory. The Quran claims to be the final installment of God's revelation in that it confirms and completes prior revelation in the OT and the NT.

See http://www.answering-islam.org/Green/onbible.htm

Are we supposed to believe that the angel Gabriel announced to Mary that she would conceive a Son by the Holy Spirit and that the same angel would make Mohammed God's final and greatest prophet?

Wicknight wrote: »

All of which is considered heretical nonsense to the Muslims and most Jews. There is one God, the God the Jews knew. And considering it was the Jewish religion that all this is based on it does appear that Muslims are closer to the original Abrahamic religion than Christians are in this regard.

The Jews didn't have a complete picture of the nature of God but the OT does refer to God in the plural and the OT also refers to God's Spirit.

Gen 1:26 And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness

Wicknight wrote: »

Jesus tries to get around this by claiming to be God, which is heretical a fact that he tries to get around again by claiming to be the Son of God, which is also heretical.

All moot if Jesus is in fact God the Son and the Son of God. The theology of the Trinity is worth studying to see how God is one God in three persons. The Father "generates" the Son and the Son and Father generate the Holy Spirit.

BrianCalgary · 23-07-2008 09:46PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Deuteronomy 13
13:2 and the sign or wonder should come to pass concerning what he said to you, namely, “Let us follow other gods” – gods whom you have not previously known – “and let us serve them.”
13:3 You must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer, for the Lord your God will be testing you to see if you love him with all your mind and being.
13:4 You must follow the Lord your God and revere only him; and you must observe his commandments, obey him, serve him, and remain loyal to him.
13:5 As for that prophet or dreamer, he must be executed because he encouraged rebellion against the Lord your God who brought you from the land of Egypt, redeeming you from that place of slavery, and because he has tried to entice you from the way the Lord your God has commanded you to go. In this way you must purge out evil from within.

Jesus tries to get around this by claiming to be God, which is heretical a fact that he tries to get around again by claiming to be the Son of God, which is also heretical.

And wicknight you are so off base with your final statement. He not only claimed it and backed the claim up, but many Jews recognised Him for who He was.

Oh but I forgot, you tend to leave huge chunks out and never ever do you look at the full picture.
:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Zombrex · 23-07-2008 10:31PM

BrianCalgary wrote: »

And wicknight you are so off base with your final statement.

Well you know what they say, 13 million Jews can't be wrong ...

BrianCalgary wrote: »

but many Jews recognised Him for who He was.

I'm not quite sure where you get "many" from, my understand that there are 350,000 Messianic Jews, approx 2-3% of Jews.

PDN · 23-07-2008 10:34PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Well you know what they say, 13 million Jews can't be wrong ...

I'm not quite sure where you get "many" from, my understand that there are 350,000 Messianic Jews, approx 2-3% of Jews.

Not very relevant unless any of them are at least 2000 years old.

BrianCalgary · 23-07-2008 10:53PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Well you know what they say, 13 million Jews can't be wrong ...

I'm not quite sure where you get "many" from, my understand that there are 350,000 Messianic Jews, approx 2-3% of Jews.

And you prove my point on how you completely miss what any one tries to tell you.

Many jews recognised Jesus for who He is. Who else here needs to be told that I am speaking of Jews at the time of the events in the Gospels and Acts.

Zombrex · 23-07-2008 11:02PM

kelly1 wrote: »

If that is true then the Quran is self-contradictory.

Why?

kelly1 wrote: »

The Quran claims to be the final installment of God's revelation in that it confirms and completes prior revelation in the OT and the NT.

According to Islam what you know as the New Testament is not the book of Jesus (the injil). It is a corruption of the message of Jesus by the early Christians who misunderstood or invented their own version of Jesus message after he was executed (Muslims believe Jesus rose to heaven and that a doppelgänger was executed to fool the Jews). The book of Jesus is lost to mankind.

kelly1 wrote: »

The Jews didn't have a complete picture of the nature of God but the OT does refer to God in the plural and the OT also refers to God's Spirit.

Not in the context that Christians refer to it. It is mentioned many times in the OT that God is one. The holy spirit of God, which was used to breath life into Adam, and to conceive Mary (according to Islam) is an agent of God, not a separate part of him. God is a single entity in both Judaism and Islam. Christianity introduced the idea of the Trinity.

kelly1 wrote: »

All moot if Jesus is in fact God the Son and the Son of God.

Well yeah, but then that is the point. Would God really warn his people about someone acting like and proclaiming the things Jesus proclaimed and then send Jesus his son proclaiming and acting in a way he just warned his people about?

kelly1 wrote: »

The theology of the Trinity is worth studying to see how God is one God in three persons. The Father "generates" the Son and the Son and Father generate the Holy Spirit.

All that is trying to fit a round peg into a square hole. It is trying to get around the fact that on the one hand you have it repeatable stated that God is one in the Torah, and on the Christian claims of Jesus being God

So Christians just say well God is one and he has a son.

Which you are perfectly entitled to do.

But I think it is asking a lot to expect the Jews and Muslims to accept that, particularly when they were warned in the Old Testament not to accept teachings like that from people claiming to be prophets.

Zombrex · 23-07-2008 11:05PM

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Many jews recognised Jesus for who He is. Who else here needs to be told that I am speaking of Jews at the time of the events in the Gospels and Acts.

Well I'm pretty sure far more recognise him now than at the time, so I'm not sure what you think your point is. Given that Christianity was a religion formed in the middle east I would bank that the majority of the first Christians were Jews, since most people were Jews.

What was the percentage of Jews 2000 years ago who converted to Christianity? Where do you get the "many" from?

Schuhart · 23-07-2008 11:07PM

kelly1 wrote: »

Why does Mohammed deny that Jesus was crucified or that Jesus is God the Son incarnate? The reason is simple. The spirit who appeared to Mohammed clearly wanted to draw attention away from Jesus and make us doubt who and what Jesus claimed to be.

I'd feel the reason is even simpler than that. It is necessary for Mohammed to deny the divinity of Jesus to open the possiblility of there being another prophet. I'd suggest this is why the Quran bangs on about the notion of God having a son being such an error. I mean, Islam sees god as omnipotent. That means if he wanted a son he could have one, and there's no reason within Islam why any divine action should make sense to us.

Hence, the rather peculiar and incoherent unseating of Jesus strikes me as explicable if considered as a political act. For example, the way that Mohammed seems to accept the crucifixion took place suggests he felt the Gospel account could not be doubted on questions of fact - he accepts people saw Jesus on the cross. What he claims, though, is that they saw a body double and not the real Jesus. Let me say, I think this means we need to be a little more critical of the Quranic account that simply maintaining that it amounts to Islam saying the Gospels are factually untrue. Its actually not that clear (to me at any rate) where exactly they are suggesting the accounts to be wrong.

Put another way, if the argument is 'the Gospels are pretty accurate, except for the bits where it seems to suggest he's the son of God', does it not open the door to a similar argument along the lines 'the Quran is pretty accurate, except for any bits that suggest he's the last prophet'.

On another point, we know that the Quran states that Jesus was born to a virgin. That raises to my mind an incoherence over his real status - who was his father, then? Was his 'father' the divine intention there should be a prophet born to a virgin? It also makes the Quran a party to the possible error in confusing the term 'virgin' with 'young woman'. (Incidetly, I've a vague memory of raising the controversy about this term before, but cannot recollect the thread.)

kelly1 wrote: »

I haven't read the Quran and I don't need to. I know I will never find another religion which shows the same love, mercy and compassion that God has for His people.

Noel, clearly your own faith is entirely a matter for you to determine, and clearly you have the right to establish your own standards of proof. You've clearly decided that Catholicism is the faith for you, and very sincerely I wish you the best with that if it works for you.

But please understand that a statement like the above does nothing to convince any of the rest of us of the rightness of your choice. All it communicates to me is that you have decided to follow Catholicism without bothering study the Quran at all.

Now, I stress, that is clearly your choice and if you see no reason to study the Quran, then I see no reason why you should. But hopefully you'll understand that this means I do not see you as having the necessary openness to contribute much to this discussion - where Christianity and Islam are being compared. I mean, the very obvious question on my mind is whether, if you read the Quran, you'd say at the end of it 'the scales have fallen from my eyes, how could I have been so wrong'. Which, I stress, is not me saying you need to alter your standards for your convictions. Its just that trumpeting ignorance is not a line that tends to sway minds.

Unless, of course, you're Jackie Healy Rae.

Zombrex · 23-07-2008 11:07PM

PDN wrote: »

Not very relevant unless any of them are at least 2000 years old.

Probably not, though I'm still searching for BC point.

If I said "many" Jews totally rejected Jesus as a false prophet, would that have sway over you guys? I imagine not.

Christianity or Islam? Which one to believe?

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