A straight punch with a step forward?

colly10 · 25-06-2008 10:10AM

I can't see how it would be effective, your changing stance as your throwing it so there a higher risk of being off balance if they catch you with a punch as your doing it. I don't think theres any way you could be properly mainain your balance while throwing the punch with only one foot on the ground and if your caught with a right hook with only 1 on the ground you'd probably be dropped.
I can't see how it would anything but reduce the power in the punch either, the power from the straight comes from transfering your body weight through the hips as your throwing it and twisting on the back foot as your doing it.
I assume you'd also have to see it coming from a mile off, ye avoid any major movement (such as dropping the head etc...) when throwing because you don't want to give the other fighter a chance to see it coming

Could be wrong though, never seen it executed, if it was an effective punch though you would assume pro boxers would be using it though

Martin25 · 25-06-2008 10:16AM

Why teach someone to defend themselves with a technique with little chance of sucess?
Sorry but in over 30 years in the martial arts have never seen anyone use a "lunge punch" successfully in sparring,on the street,in the ring/cage.
When I was a beginner I actually tried it with a couple of thugs in Rathgar and was kicked all over the street,hence my cynicism about this one!

colly10 · 25-06-2008 10:19AM

Charlie3dan wrote: »

That's all fair enough.

Just to give another point of view. Bill "Superfoot" Wallace used the hook kick (or reverse roundhouse) to great effect in his fighting days. (Actually in some cases you'd even see him throw this kick over his opponents head and then coming back with a standard roundhouse without dropping the leg). Benny "The Jet" is another example with his favourite kick being the turning/spinning kick.

The straight kick or the standard roundhouse would have a much higher percentage than either of these kicks but through practise and skill these techniques can be equally efective, efficient and functional.

Of course it's more difficult to make these techniques work but if we were to just take a quick look and say "oh it's not functional" and dismiss it (not saying you are dismissing it columok) then the striking game loses out and we all end up looking the same, using the same techniques. (taking it to extremes but there ya go).

Of course, if you train these kicks too little, then they'll never be effective.

Im not familiar with the tecnique but that does sound effective as it could catch the opponent off guard, it's doesn't sound very predictable

pearsquasher · 25-06-2008 10:19AM

IT DOESNT :eek: WORK IN :rolleyes: A RING

Otherwise we'd see it working in a ring.

deegs · 25-06-2008 10:20AM

ryoishin wrote: »

Alot of styles use a straight punch where you step forward with the back leg.

Has anyone used it in sport or in a self defence situation. Is it an effective technique?

Its good to train with all situations in mind even tho you may never use them. This would be useful if your opponent was retreating or coming forward. If stationary there is little point to move unless you can see a specific opportuinity.

I'd be very surprised if most of the MMA people here have never follewed a retreating opponent with a series of punches!

colly10 · 25-06-2008 10:30AM

deegs wrote: »

Its good to train with all situations in mind even tho you may never use them. This would be useful if your opponent was retreating or coming forward. If stationary there is little point to move unless you can see a specific opportuinity.

If they're retreating and you try this you could walk into a jab, if there coming forward the jab would also be more effective (let them move into it) or just use the standard straight. If they're coming forward and your coming forward with this they'll probably slip it as it's coming from a mile off and you could get a hook to the head as you've gone past.
Theres too much of a risk of being dropped when your off balance just to land a punch which is weaker than a standard straight

deegs wrote: »

I'd be very surprised if most of the MMA people here have never follewed a retreating opponent with a series of punches!

They probably keep their 2 feet on the ground through in a balanced stance so if they do happen to be hit they're not in trouble

Roper · 25-06-2008 10:42AM

Oh okay, a step forward with punch doesn't work in the ring where the opponents have (forgive me if I lose count here) 2 legs, 2 arms... yup that's it.

But it does work in the "street" where the opponents have... some more legs and arms I'd assume? Pearsquasher, outside of the dojo, when have you used a reverse lunging punch to good effect. I'm skeptical of anything which has a basis in theory but no hard evidence to back it up.

ryoishin · 25-06-2008 10:42AM

What pearsquasher is saying is very koryu japanese minded, show the student what it looks like and then let them have a go for a few years before showing them the finer points and every now and again give them a belt of the technique so they know what it should feel like.

It seems like the lunging action might have come from dealing with an armed attacker (sword, stick, not a gun). You have to stay out of range of the weapon but if you see an opening then youd have to cover that distance quickly.

Another possibility is that while most of the weapons training had some form of step when it came to teaching someone empty hand strikes why take away a motor skill that they had been developing with weapons.

But im only guessing!

pearsquasher · 25-06-2008 11:07AM

ryoishin .. I see where you're going and to some degree you're right but it's a massive over-simplification of the learning process in a Bujinkan dojo. There's more to it than what you said. The weapons thing is a good guess too

Here's another aspect of the lungh punch to get you all thinking.

Ever been suprise-attacked by someone who really wants to knock your block off and I mean with emotional agression? Armed or unarmed.... Picture what ways are possible. Isn't the lunge punch a likely one? What does that say about training in it? (For non-sports contexts)

ryoishin · 25-06-2008 11:09AM

Ive never been in a bujinkan dojo.

Well not really.

Baggio... · 25-06-2008 11:14AM

Charlie3dan wrote: »

....or we could just say "nah that's not functional" and forget about it all together?

Well, I would personally. Unless you're just training for tradition. That type of technique was designed to be used under "specific conditions". If you want to learn Self-protection (or even ring sport) Why clog up your mind with a very low percentage application (as Col pointed out)?

Will I use a bow and arrow or an MP5? Crude analogy I know, but you get the idea.

Now, if you just want to have the whole TMA “experience” then go for it! It's an important part of learning the system.

However, even when I trained with the most Stalwart TMA guys, they would constantly say, that it would NEVER be applied in a practical sense, as it was not functional enough.

TKD SC · 25-06-2008 11:25AM

I think the only (or one of the only!) ways it may work is if you stepped fwd say with right leg (but not in a lunge walking stance type step, moreso moving fwd while changing legs in a sparring type stance, if that makes sense), hence you've changed your sides and you are at the same time punching with the right hand - and punching moreso in a right hand jab type motion rather than a long winded kata type motion that was telegraphed from the back hand. Or maybe you'd argue this is now just a different technique! But, I have used this the very very odd time in sparring and its ok. Depends on where the person is, better if you're on the attack, also can be used really just to switch sides while still attacking and with the main intention being to set up a nice follow on turning kick off the back leg. But really feel rubbish if being done as a pure lunging punch as per kata / patterns - at min it at least has to be altered to a more realistic method.

Not sure if I explained myself well there

I also think not explaining things is a bit of a kop out.
And the ring vs street divide for something like a stepping fwd punch is hard to swallow too! It's not as if it's some lethal crazy techinique that would work on the street and couldnt possibly be performed in the ring for fear of killing everyone - we're talking about a simple, very simple, white belt type stuff of stepping forward and punching!!! How could something as basic as this be seen as working in the street but not in the ring?? Oh, unless it's not really a basic technique after all and if you train it for 50 yrs then you'll truly understand it! I've only been training this particlular movement for 15yrs so I just have to hang in there for another 35yrs before enlightenment!!!!!!

Charlie3dan · 25-06-2008 11:36AM

Use for sport

Basic training: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8844BzvEyMs (he goes on a bit so skip to the end, we all know what we're talking about here anyway)

Use for sport: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kpnznBeFDs&feature=related

Same principle but the technique is adapted.
No one suggesting you use the training example in real fighting.

These clips are only guidelines but just trying to show how it can possibly be used.

Baggio... · 25-06-2008 11:48AM

pearsquasher wrote: »

Ever been suprise-attacked by someone who really wants to knock your block off and I mean with emotional agression? Armed or unarmed.... Picture what ways are possible. Isn't the lunge punch a likely one? What does that say about training in it? (For non-sports contexts)

Have we ever been attacked by an aggressive individual? Well, I'd say most us have at one point. And I gotta say that the 'auld “lunge punch” did not spring to mind. I just hit the guy repeatedly with my right cross.

You seem to think it would work wonders in a street situation – could you elaborate on this? As I personally see this type of technique as, slow, telegraphic and without much power (compared to something like a right cross).

Personally, that would be the last technique I would teach someone to use in a street application.

Baggio... · 25-06-2008 11:57AM

Charlie3dan wrote: »

No one suggesting you use the training example in real fighting.

These clips are only guidelines but just trying to show how it can possibly be used.

That second vid looked more like reverse punches to me.

But as I've already stated, those type of traditional techniques were designed to work under “specific conditions”. That vid demonstrates it perfectly.

So for that type of light contact point sparring, it's groovy! If that's your thing then cool. Just don't go down to a Boxing gym that practices full contact sparring, or you may be a tad disappointed.

Charlie3dan · 25-06-2008 12:15PM

As I said in an earlier post in practise the punch lands before the foot.

If I were in a boxing ring I would use techniques that are designed to work in that environment. That environment with full head gear and big gloves, closer distance. Hey I'm not knocking it I embrace it as much as anything else....rather than just throwing it away. At the end of the day, they are both just sport.

The OP asked has anyone found it effective either in sport or in street. Yer man in the vid gave it a handy shot in sport.

LukerC · 25-06-2008 12:17PM

For anyone who says a straight punch doesn't work in a real fight check out Chuck Liddel V Guy Metzger, chuck knocks Guy out with a straight punch you won't see it straight away coz he throws it so quick but it can be clearly seen in the replay, so if trained enough it can work, chuck probably picked it up from his kempo days, and because its mixed in with a load of other punches in a flurry its fairly hard to see comin.

Baggio... · 25-06-2008 12:24PM

LukerC wrote: »

For anyone who says a straight punch doesn't work in a real fight check out Chuck Liddel V Guy Metzger, chuck knocks Guy out with a straight punch you won't see it straight away coz he throws it so quick but it can be clearly seen in the replay, so if trained enough it can work, chuck probably picked it up from his kempo days, and because its mixed in with a load of other punches in a flurry its fairly hard to see comin.

Now, there is a big difference between a straight punch and a karate type “lunge punch”.

Have you got the clip handy?

Baggio... · 25-06-2008 12:26PM

Charlie3dan wrote: »

The OP asked has anyone found it effective either in sport or in street. Yer man in the vid gave it a handy shot in sport.

Yep, I'd totally agree with you there. In that type of sporting context it can certainly work.

colly10 · 25-06-2008 12:31PM

Charlie3dan wrote: »

The OP asked has anyone found it effective either in sport or in street. Yer man in the vid gave it a handy shot in sport.

I cant see the vid cause im in work, what would make it more effective than using a cross right in the same situation (or better than stepping forward with a jab if too far away)?

LukerC · 25-06-2008 12:33PM

No sorry buddy don't have a clip couldn't find it on youtube either.

Baggio... · 25-06-2008 12:45PM

LukerC wrote: »

No sorry buddy don't have a clip couldn't find it on youtube either.

Thanks, for having a look anyway.

R.

Charlie3dan · 25-06-2008 12:48PM

The chuck vs Guy Metzger clip; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syUexXXcYSA

He uses the straight punch at 3:23 of the clip but that's more of a stance shuffle than a step. Again though it's adapting the principle. No-one is saying you take a big ungaurded step from distance, that's just basic training. You need to move on from the basics which I think some contributors here aren't taking into account.

The actual finishing punch is in the clip isn't the stepping punch anyway.

Colly10, as you say the step can be better than the cross if too far away.
The step forward and jab is pretty much the same thing but it depends on whether you are punching before or after the step. In any case I'm not advocating the suppierority of the technique-just not dismissing it.

cowzerp · 25-06-2008 12:58PM

I know of 1 boxing club that use it now and again, they train it regular and do it on the trainers call! it works sometimes(as in it lands sometimes) i never seen someonne hurt with it, but is high risk as you step out of balance and the punch takes longer to throw!

Personally the benefits of doing it are no greater than a standard jab or cross and its negatives are much worse so to me its pointless. thats why its never seen in Pro boxing or Olympic standard boxing.

i'd rather spend my time working on the superior punches, jabs, hooks and uppercuts and crosses.

Baggio... · 25-06-2008 01:04PM

Charlie3dan wrote: »

You need to move on from the basics which I think some contributors here aren't taking into account..

Good vid, but I don't think the two are really comparable to be honest.

Forward drive is just the standard when hitting and developing impact.

ColinJennings · 25-06-2008 07:27PM

I find its main use is that it is a relatively simple first punch to learn and you can use it to develop techniques to increase speed and power. Once you have the basic punch down, you then apply the same to other stances.

Roper · 25-06-2008 07:51PM

ColinJennings wrote: »

I find its main use is that it is a relatively simple first punch to learn and you can use it to develop techniques to increase speed and power. Once you have the basic punch down, you then apply the same to other stances.

In a similar vein when I was starting out driving, my Dad had me push a wheelbarrow down the road, signalling turns with my hands and making car noises. After I'd learned the fundamentals of that, I simply applied what I'd learned to other vehicles.

Tim_Murphy · 25-06-2008 08:05PM

ColinJennings wrote: »

I find its main use is that it is a relatively simple first punch to learn and you can use it to develop techniques to increase speed and power. Once you have the basic punch down, you then apply the same to other stances.

It isn't simplier than a jab or a cross, which you could use instead. These also have the added bonus of not being crap techniques.

ColinJennings · 25-06-2008 08:10PM

Roper wrote: »

In a similar vein when I was starting out driving, my Dad had me push a wheelbarrow down the road, signalling turns with my hands and making car noises. After I'd learned the fundamentals of that, I simply applied what I'd learned to other vehicles.

Sarcasm doesn't become you.

But being serious whether you take a step forward, back, shuffle, skip or stand still, the hand movement for a punch remains almost the same. If you learn the hand movement, while standing still, the next most logical direction to move is forward as that is the direction the power is going.

Roper · 25-06-2008 08:18PM

ColinJennings wrote: »

Sarcasm doesn't become you.

How do you know? I happen to think it becomes me very much.

But being serious whether you take a step forward, back, shuffle, skip or stand still, the hand movement for a punch remains almost the same. If you learn the hand movement, while standing still, the next most logical direction to move is forward as that is the direction the power is going.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the fundamentals of punching, fundamentally. But given that I was once in TKD too, that doesn't surprise me. Punching properly is 90% what you do with the rest of your body, 10% your arm. Arm punching is the worst thing in the world to encourage, and stepping forward begets arm punching.

A straight punch with a step forward?

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