A straight punch with a step forward?

ryoishin

Alot of styles use a straight punch where you step forward with the back leg.

Has anyone used it in sport or in a self defence situation. Is it an effective technique?

cowzerp

do you mean switch stance while punching?

mark.leonard

Do you mean like a walking stance obverse punch?

ryoishin

Like a normal karate or tkd straight punch. if your in a stance you step forward with the back leg so that becomes the forward leg and punch with the same hand as the leg that stepped forward.

cowzerp

Very easy to counter and not a very effective punch, i only know of 1 club in ireland that uses it and although it can catch people off because its unothodox, i fought 1 of there fighters and every time he tried it i hurt him with a clean punch, not reccomended..if its punching and not seen in top level boxing, then its probably not great!

TKD SC

ryoishin wrote: »

Alot of styles use a straight punch where you step forward with the back leg.

Has anyone used it in sport or in a self defence situation. Is it an effective technique?

Hello,

So yes, from your description it's a walking stance, obverse punch. Punch being over your front leg, generally with the other hand (reaction hand) coming back to the hip of your back leg. As seen in patterns / kata.

Re effective technique: Would say absolutely NO for sport / sparring - that would be ridiculous!! Edit - maybe a possible variation for sparring now that i think of it, but not in the standard bag of tricks, might work once or twice but would need to be quick, and as cowzerp says not done by boxers...
For self defence, well it's a punch I suppose...some people would say the reaction hand is grabbing hold of the attacker pulling them in towards you while you are also punching them with the other hand. But in that situation I suppose it's basically just a punch.

Can I ask, why the interest? I doubt its ever advocated anywhere (tkd / karate etc clubs) as working in sport / sparring, and really just a patterns / kata thingy!

Simon

ryoishin

So many styles train it yet i have nt seen it used alot except in kata!

Baggio...

ryoishin wrote: »

Like a normal karate or tkd straight punch. if your in a stance you step forward with the back leg so that becomes the forward leg and punch with the same hand as the leg that stepped forward.

Just to add something to what Cowzer said.
Very easy to see coming as it's so telegraphed. You see it used a lot in traditional clubs, as you said in Kata. In fact these lunges are so slow you could actually "block" them, and traditional blocking is something that never works under real conditions.

Now stepping with a punch, ie - a cross, for example is excellent. Works great in sport, and in Self-Protection. It will not only let you cover more distance, but will totally amplify you power. If it's done correctly, and at the right range - they wont see it coming. Virtually all the strikes we teach are accompanied by convulsive forward moment. However, in this type of motion your front foot will always remain at the front. Unlike the lunge punch usually seen in Kata and forms.

Just look at the way Rodney King does it!

Charlie3dan

Only really effective in practise (sport or street) if you let the punch go and it lands before the foot. Good for covering distance to the target but speed is crucial.
Not my first choice technique for sport or street but can be very useful setting up a second technique.

Mikio Yahara was famous for using it to great effect in karate competitions back in the day but I cant find any clips off hand

TKD SC

ryoishin wrote: »

So many styles train it yet i have nt seen it used alot except in kata!

There's so many things trained in kata that you won't see used alot except in kata , probably cos they're completely useless anywhere else except against those imaginary slow moving opponents who attack in strange ways in kata!!

Charlie3dan

TKD SC wrote: »

There's so many things trained in kata that you won't see used alot except in kata , probably cos they're completely useless anywhere else except against those imaginary slow moving opponents who attack in strange ways in kata!!

Let the kata bashing commence! :rolleyes:

ryoishin

I think I remember Taji Kase saying that origionally the back foot was meant to come close to the forward foot but not step infront of it. But Funakoshi son wanted to increase the distance of his punch so he stepped forward. His goal was to do the step in the same time as doing it without the step.

But i could have the story mixed up.

TKD SC

Charlie3dan wrote: »

Let the kata bashing commence! :rolleyes:

Ha ha!
And I do the feckin things every week!!! Well, actually I avoid them as much as possible tbh!!

pearsquasher

This punch doesn't work in a duel?

Same way a saw isn't good for banging in nails. :rolleyes:


If you find the punch interesting you should practice it... but do make sure you get correct instruction and understand the context of it's use. It's very possible that the kata mentioned as having this yet are "useless" have become context-less. This is what happens to many arts that get diluted over time due to poor instruction. I believe that the likes of Partick McCarthy in Karate at least are trying to address this issue... from what I've read on him anyway.

Luckily for me the Bujinkan kata are highly context-savvy AND I have proper instruction in ALL forms of punching they contain. So I find this punch useful as a matter of fact... takes a while though and it doesn't involve dueling.

ryoishin

I see where your coming from espically in some of the hontai takagi ryu katas and the use of unbalancing (is it katzushi, its been awhile since i used japanese terms) before the strike.

pearsquasher

(yep "kazushi" means to unbalance and yep that is a tiny part of the use of this stype of punch.)

I've teaching beginners in Bujinkan and this punch is involved, amongst others. I don't explain to them every reason why it's used because it's unexplainable in words. Over time, like with most other things I've learned and am now passing on, the practicalities and function becomes absorbed through dedicated training. This way of learning - by doing - is a major feature of the type of martial art that I do and it's highly rewarding and lends the student the responsibility of practicing diligently to reveal the "secrets" to themselves. Really, there are no secrets... only revealed understanding through training. (sorry for the cheezy lingo...... what can I say... it's the nature of it all!)

TKD SC

pearsquasher wrote: »

This punch doesn't work in a duel?

So I find this punch useful as a matter of fact... takes a while though and it doesn't involve dueling.

Hi,
Could you please explain dueling? And maybe one example of this punch being useful? I stated a SD scenario earlier in thread as a possible "hidden in kata" type movement for this punch (involving the reaction hand to hip). Just interested! (FYI - The likes of Iain Abernethy and Rick Clarkson & Stuart Anslow are into bunkai / applications in patterns).

tks

pearsquasher

If I'm not going to explain the usefullness of this punch to my students, I'm not going to do it here. I could fill a few pages for a start...It's a "doing" thing as I said and I don't feel the need to. Besides "taking balance" was mentioned. That one was for free....

As for duelling..."a duel is an engagement in combat between two individuals, with matched weapons in accordance with their combat doctrines." From wiki...

TKD SC

Sorry I asked :rolleyes:

Tim_Murphy

ryoishin wrote: »

Alot of styles use a straight punch where you step forward with the back leg.

Has anyone used it in sport or in a self defence situation. Is it an effective technique?

No, if I made a DVD called Bad Striking 101, switching stance like that would be on it.

This punch doesn't work in a duel?

Same way a saw isn't good for banging in nails.

Out of interest, if it doesn't work in a duel, when does it work?

Baggio...

pearsquasher wrote: »

As for duelling..."a duel is an engagement in combat between two individuals, with matched weapons in accordance with their combat doctrines." From wiki...

Don't see too many of these on the street.

It's all about percentages. Stepping punches a la jodan tsuki are incredibly incredibly low percentage. Even more so than spinning back fists. The cross and the jab are incredibly high percentage (demonstrably so.).

Accordingly you would spend an incredibly low percentage of your time on stepping punches like these. That is if you subscribe to things like efficiency, effectiveness and functionality.

Clive

It's a great punch, I've seen it used effectively many times. Straight or overhand.

ryoishin

Cheesey secrets = kuden!

Martin25

Is this a kinda lunge punch?
I'm afraid the traditional one would not work against any one other than a rank beginner. It is way too telegraphic.
In Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do we practice most of our techniques, about 80% off the front hand /leg with the prime emphasis being non telegraphic and non intention. This is very challenging but as we get better at it by working hard, it becomes easier. We dropped that lung punch idea 25 years ago, why practice something with so little chance of success?

Charlie3dan

columok wrote: »

It's all about percentages. Stepping punches a la jodan tsuki are incredibly incredibly low percentage. Even more so than spinning back fists. The cross and the jab are incredibly high percentage (demonstrably so.).

Accordingly you would spend an incredibly low percentage of your time on stepping punches like these. That is if you subscribe to things like efficiency, effectiveness and functionality.

That's all fair enough.

Just to give another point of view. Bill "Superfoot" Wallace used the hook kick (or reverse roundhouse) to great effect in his fighting days. (Actually in some cases you'd even see him throw this kick over his opponents head and then coming back with a standard roundhouse without dropping the leg). Benny "The Jet" is another example with his favourite kick being the turning/spinning kick.

The straight kick or the standard roundhouse would have a much higher percentage than either of these kicks but through practise and skill these techniques can be equally efective, efficient and functional.

Of course it's more difficult to make these techniques work but if we were to just take a quick look and say "oh it's not functional" and dismiss it (not saying you are dismissing it columok) then the striking game loses out and we all end up looking the same, using the same techniques. (taking it to extremes but there ya go).

Of course, if you train these kicks too little, then they'll never be effective.

Charlie3dan

Martin25 wrote: »

I'm afraid the traditional one would not work against any one other than a rank beginner. It is way too telegraphic.

The traditonal training method wouldn't work of course but this can be adapted to be more functional with less telegraphing.

Martin25 wrote: »

This is very challenging but as we get better at it by working hard, it becomes easier.

Indeed

Martin25 wrote: »

We dropped that lung punch idea 25 years ago, why practice something with so little chance of success?

Is it the punch that is at fault or the lack of training?

Baggio...

Charlie3dan wrote: »

Is it the punch that is at fault or the lack of training?

Well, lets let science decide. Get a couple of good lunge punchers into a boxing ring, and see how that get on (full contact of course).

Probably not too well when the opponant is going full speed, and then trying to knock you out.

But don't take my word for it - test it under pressure.

pearsquasher

Hook kicks, crosses, jabs etc........... all features of sparring, duelling etc.

Sometimes... just sometimes.... you're not in that sort of game and other possibilities appear. Context.

Everyones assuming the receiver of the lunge punch is looking at you or hasn't had his balance comprimised already, or is within jabbing distance, or that the lunge punch is done on its own...:rolleyes:

If all you're doing is toe-to-toe a high "percentage" of the time, you're not seeing the full landscape of martial arts training. I see it all the time with people of other martial arts training with me... they assume the fights in a ring. It never is. That's a sport.

By the way.. I'm not excluding crosses and jabs from being used either.

Roper

I'd use it and teach it to set up the left kick from a regular (righty) stance and the odd time throwing an overhand you'd find your right foot stepping forward. I think people are getting bogged down in the sort of forward lunge punch of Kata and patterns which is pretty useless, but you have to remember that Kata are someone's sort of stylistic adaptations of what really happens in a fight.

pearsquasher wrote: »

I've teaching beginners in Bujinkan and this punch is involved, amongst others. I don't explain to them every reason why it's used because it's unexplainable in words. Over time, like with most other things I've learned and am now passing on, the practicalities and function becomes absorbed through dedicated training. This way of learning - by doing - is a major feature of the type of martial art that I do and it's highly rewarding and lends the student the responsibility of practicing diligently to reveal the "secrets" to themselves. Really, there are no secrets... only revealed understanding through training. (sorry for the cheezy lingo...... what can I say... it's the nature of it all!)

That sounds cheezy alright! I also have to say that if someone who was teaching me couldn't explain to me the how and why something worked I would call bullsh1t. It's true that "practise makes perfect" and the more time I spend wrestling on the mat grappling the more I begin to understand what BJJ is all about, so in a way I can relate to what you're saying there. The difference is that everyone I really learn from knows how to put into plain English (sometimes plain Polish, Finnish, or Portuguese ) the hows and whys. I find that the best teachers tell you the whys and leave the hows more or less up to you.

Revealed understanding through training is something I think we can all relate to though.

Charlie3dan

Baggio... wrote: »

Well, lets let science decide. Get a couple of good lunge punchers into a boxing ring, and see how that get on (full contact of course).

I'm not suggesting someone use only technique or instead of other effective techniques.:rolleyes:

I'm suggesting the technique not be dismissed, not suggesting it's a supierior technique. Another technique in a bag of tricks. I've already said it's not my first choice technique, but it's a technique I can use.

....or we could just say "nah that's not functional" and forget about it all together?

See pearsquasher post just above for more good points.

colly10

I can't see how it would be effective, your changing stance as your throwing it so there a higher risk of being off balance if they catch you with a punch as your doing it. I don't think theres any way you could be properly mainain your balance while throwing the punch with only one foot on the ground and if your caught with a right hook with only 1 on the ground you'd probably be dropped.
I can't see how it would anything but reduce the power in the punch either, the power from the straight comes from transfering your body weight through the hips as your throwing it and twisting on the back foot as your doing it.
I assume you'd also have to see it coming from a mile off, ye avoid any major movement (such as dropping the head etc...) when throwing because you don't want to give the other fighter a chance to see it coming

Could be wrong though, never seen it executed, if it was an effective punch though you would assume pro boxers would be using it though

Martin25

Why teach someone to defend themselves with a technique with little chance of sucess?
Sorry but in over 30 years in the martial arts have never seen anyone use a "lunge punch" successfully in sparring,on the street,in the ring/cage.
When I was a beginner I actually tried it with a couple of thugs in Rathgar and was kicked all over the street,hence my cynicism about this one!

colly10

Charlie3dan wrote: »

That's all fair enough.

Just to give another point of view. Bill "Superfoot" Wallace used the hook kick (or reverse roundhouse) to great effect in his fighting days. (Actually in some cases you'd even see him throw this kick over his opponents head and then coming back with a standard roundhouse without dropping the leg). Benny "The Jet" is another example with his favourite kick being the turning/spinning kick.

The straight kick or the standard roundhouse would have a much higher percentage than either of these kicks but through practise and skill these techniques can be equally efective, efficient and functional.

Of course it's more difficult to make these techniques work but if we were to just take a quick look and say "oh it's not functional" and dismiss it (not saying you are dismissing it columok) then the striking game loses out and we all end up looking the same, using the same techniques. (taking it to extremes but there ya go).

Of course, if you train these kicks too little, then they'll never be effective.

Im not familiar with the tecnique but that does sound effective as it could catch the opponent off guard, it's doesn't sound very predictable

pearsquasher

IT DOESNT :eek: WORK IN :rolleyes: A RING


Otherwise we'd see it working in a ring.

deegs

ryoishin wrote: »

Alot of styles use a straight punch where you step forward with the back leg.

Has anyone used it in sport or in a self defence situation. Is it an effective technique?

Its good to train with all situations in mind even tho you may never use them. This would be useful if your opponent was retreating or coming forward. If stationary there is little point to move unless you can see a specific opportuinity.

I'd be very surprised if most of the MMA people here have never follewed a retreating opponent with a series of punches!

colly10

deegs wrote: »

Its good to train with all situations in mind even tho you may never use them. This would be useful if your opponent was retreating or coming forward. If stationary there is little point to move unless you can see a specific opportuinity.

If they're retreating and you try this you could walk into a jab, if there coming forward the jab would also be more effective (let them move into it) or just use the standard straight. If they're coming forward and your coming forward with this they'll probably slip it as it's coming from a mile off and you could get a hook to the head as you've gone past.
Theres too much of a risk of being dropped when your off balance just to land a punch which is weaker than a standard straight

deegs wrote: »

I'd be very surprised if most of the MMA people here have never follewed a retreating opponent with a series of punches!

They probably keep their 2 feet on the ground through in a balanced stance so if they do happen to be hit they're not in trouble

Roper

Oh okay, a step forward with punch doesn't work in the ring where the opponents have (forgive me if I lose count here) 2 legs, 2 arms... yup that's it.

But it does work in the "street" where the opponents have... some more legs and arms I'd assume? Pearsquasher, outside of the dojo, when have you used a reverse lunging punch to good effect. I'm skeptical of anything which has a basis in theory but no hard evidence to back it up.

ryoishin

What pearsquasher is saying is very koryu japanese minded, show the student what it looks like and then let them have a go for a few years before showing them the finer points and every now and again give them a belt of the technique so they know what it should feel like.

It seems like the lunging action might have come from dealing with an armed attacker (sword, stick, not a gun). You have to stay out of range of the weapon but if you see an opening then youd have to cover that distance quickly.

Another possibility is that while most of the weapons training had some form of step when it came to teaching someone empty hand strikes why take away a motor skill that they had been developing with weapons.

But im only guessing!

pearsquasher

ryoishin .. I see where you're going and to some degree you're right but it's a massive over-simplification of the learning process in a Bujinkan dojo. There's more to it than what you said. The weapons thing is a good guess too

Here's another aspect of the lungh punch to get you all thinking.

Ever been suprise-attacked by someone who really wants to knock your block off and I mean with emotional agression? Armed or unarmed.... Picture what ways are possible. Isn't the lunge punch a likely one? What does that say about training in it? (For non-sports contexts)

ryoishin

Ive never been in a bujinkan dojo.

Well not really.

Baggio...

Charlie3dan wrote: »

....or we could just say "nah that's not functional" and forget about it all together?

Well, I would personally. Unless you're just training for tradition. That type of technique was designed to be used under "specific conditions". If you want to learn Self-protection (or even ring sport) Why clog up your mind with a very low percentage application (as Col pointed out)?

Will I use a bow and arrow or an MP5? Crude analogy I know, but you get the idea.

Now, if you just want to have the whole TMA “experience” then go for it! It's an important part of learning the system.

However, even when I trained with the most Stalwart TMA guys, they would constantly say, that it would NEVER be applied in a practical sense, as it was not functional enough.

TKD SC

I think the only (or one of the only!) ways it may work is if you stepped fwd say with right leg (but not in a lunge walking stance type step, moreso moving fwd while changing legs in a sparring type stance, if that makes sense), hence you've changed your sides and you are at the same time punching with the right hand - and punching moreso in a right hand jab type motion rather than a long winded kata type motion that was telegraphed from the back hand. Or maybe you'd argue this is now just a different technique! But, I have used this the very very odd time in sparring and its ok. Depends on where the person is, better if you're on the attack, also can be used really just to switch sides while still attacking and with the main intention being to set up a nice follow on turning kick off the back leg. But really feel rubbish if being done as a pure lunging punch as per kata / patterns - at min it at least has to be altered to a more realistic method.

Not sure if I explained myself well there

I also think not explaining things is a bit of a kop out.
And the ring vs street divide for something like a stepping fwd punch is hard to swallow too! It's not as if it's some lethal crazy techinique that would work on the street and couldnt possibly be performed in the ring for fear of killing everyone - we're talking about a simple, very simple, white belt type stuff of stepping forward and punching!!! How could something as basic as this be seen as working in the street but not in the ring?? Oh, unless it's not really a basic technique after all and if you train it for 50 yrs then you'll truly understand it! I've only been training this particlular movement for 15yrs so I just have to hang in there for another 35yrs before enlightenment!!!!!!

Charlie3dan

Use for sport

Basic training: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8844BzvEyMs (he goes on a bit so skip to the end, we all know what we're talking about here anyway)

Use for sport: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kpnznBeFDs&feature=related

Same principle but the technique is adapted.
No one suggesting you use the training example in real fighting.

These clips are only guidelines but just trying to show how it can possibly be used.

Baggio...

pearsquasher wrote: »

Ever been suprise-attacked by someone who really wants to knock your block off and I mean with emotional agression? Armed or unarmed.... Picture what ways are possible. Isn't the lunge punch a likely one? What does that say about training in it? (For non-sports contexts)

Have we ever been attacked by an aggressive individual? Well, I'd say most us have at one point. And I gotta say that the 'auld “lunge punch” did not spring to mind. I just hit the guy repeatedly with my right cross.

You seem to think it would work wonders in a street situation – could you elaborate on this? As I personally see this type of technique as, slow, telegraphic and without much power (compared to something like a right cross).

Personally, that would be the last technique I would teach someone to use in a street application.

Baggio...

Charlie3dan wrote: »

No one suggesting you use the training example in real fighting.

These clips are only guidelines but just trying to show how it can possibly be used.

That second vid looked more like reverse punches to me.

But as I've already stated, those type of traditional techniques were designed to work under “specific conditions”. That vid demonstrates it perfectly.

So for that type of light contact point sparring, it's groovy! If that's your thing then cool. Just don't go down to a Boxing gym that practices full contact sparring, or you may be a tad disappointed.

Charlie3dan

As I said in an earlier post in practise the punch lands before the foot.

If I were in a boxing ring I would use techniques that are designed to work in that environment. That environment with full head gear and big gloves, closer distance. Hey I'm not knocking it I embrace it as much as anything else....rather than just throwing it away. At the end of the day, they are both just sport.

The OP asked has anyone found it effective either in sport or in street. Yer man in the vid gave it a handy shot in sport.

LukerC

For anyone who says a straight punch doesn't work in a real fight check out Chuck Liddel V Guy Metzger, chuck knocks Guy out with a straight punch you won't see it straight away coz he throws it so quick but it can be clearly seen in the replay, so if trained enough it can work, chuck probably picked it up from his kempo days, and because its mixed in with a load of other punches in a flurry its fairly hard to see comin.

Baggio...

LukerC wrote: »

For anyone who says a straight punch doesn't work in a real fight check out Chuck Liddel V Guy Metzger, chuck knocks Guy out with a straight punch you won't see it straight away coz he throws it so quick but it can be clearly seen in the replay, so if trained enough it can work, chuck probably picked it up from his kempo days, and because its mixed in with a load of other punches in a flurry its fairly hard to see comin.

Now, there is a big difference between a straight punch and a karate type “lunge punch”.

Have you got the clip handy?

Baggio...

Charlie3dan wrote: »

The OP asked has anyone found it effective either in sport or in street. Yer man in the vid gave it a handy shot in sport.

Yep, I'd totally agree with you there. In that type of sporting context it can certainly work.

colly10

Charlie3dan wrote: »

The OP asked has anyone found it effective either in sport or in street. Yer man in the vid gave it a handy shot in sport.

I cant see the vid cause im in work, what would make it more effective than using a cross right in the same situation (or better than stepping forward with a jab if too far away)?