Hibernian to shift admin to India. I won't insure with them in future.

Slutmonkey57b · 24-06-2008 09:12PM

gixerfixer wrote: »

Emmm.No last March....as in 4 months ago:rolleyes:.Maybe you should go back to school and repeat your leaving as i cant see how you passed with maths like that,although with an attitude like that your more than likely studying for your junior cert.

Mathematics does not come into it dear boy, it is a simple case of language structure.
"Last" implies "previous".
What you should have said was
"They were only told in March...." as this would have indicated that you were referring to an event in the past, with a specific calender timeframe. Since I can anticipate your rebuttal to that point, the above does not contain the possibility that you could be referring to March 2009, as the sentence is clearly in the past tense.
"They were only told last March..." indicates that you are referring to March in the past tense, however you are not referring to the closest March to our current frame of reference, but the March preceding that one, eg: March 2007.

Quite why you assume my mathematical skills are lacking simply because you don't understand the English language is something I shall have to leave you to explain for yourself. For your edification, however, I have corrected your most egregious errors of language below;

gixerfixer wrote: »

Emmm._No, last March...._as in 4 months ago:rolleyes:._Maybe you should go back to school and repeat your leaving, as i I can't see how you passed with maths like that,_although with an attitude like that you're more than likely studying for your j Junior cert.

Notes:
An ellipsis only has 3 dots.
"Smilies", while repugnant gramatically, should really be placed after the full stop, as the full stop indicates the end of the sentence and the "smiley" indicates the intended tone or feeling you wish to reflect with it.

Your concern regarding my educational state is duly noted.

colly10 · 24-06-2008 09:42PM

Board-in-work wrote: »

I would be presuming that all of the workers in that call center would be unable to help me, because their accent, or cultural differences would impede their ability to do their jobs, and offer me assistance. So I would be making presumptions based on the race of the call centers workers. You'll probably find that most call center workers in India are university graduates, highly educated, with an excellent grasp of English.

Nothing wrong with making those assumptions if there's a good reason for it, I would have difficulty understanding certain accents. They could be the greatest workers ever, they could be far better educated than the average Irish person and could also have a better grasp of the English language, but if you have difficulty understanding their accent then there's a problem.

Its all fairly irrelevant anyway, it will be people in Cork or Galway answering the phones, it will be workers that don't deal with the public that will be axed.

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

I hate to repeat myself but Premiums being written at the moment are barely profitable, never mind excessively profitable (as you claim).

I find it hard to understand how €350m in profit is barely profitable or how this is not enough so there is a need to increase premiums

HashSlinging wrote: »

There still hiring, I think this is a very shrude business move by the MD to protect the rest of the people working there, I guess its best to lose 500 jobs rather than 2000.

http://www.exp.ie/Member.asp?Mid=1538

I don't see how they would be at risk of loosing 2000 jobs?

Fratton Fred wrote: »

it is one of the most expensive places in europe to work from. That should worry people a lot more than a few jobs going to Bangalore.

This is why it's worrying to see 600 jobs move, is it the begining of the end for Irish jobs?

Hurakan · 24-06-2008 09:47PM

I have heard there will be voice work located in India! Not just back office.

Sizzler · 24-06-2008 09:56PM

ART6 wrote: »

OK, if you say so. I'm no expert on Hibernian. However, maybe you should look at the post by Geraldo?:)

Fair enough, but I was reading the papers like most other people today.

Linky:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/insurance-giant-axes-580-workers-in-move-to-india-1419960.html

Although data processing and claims recovery will be among the services that will go to India, Hibernian chief executive Stuart Purdy said Irish customers will continue to deal with Irish call centres "as a port of first call".

This intimates that some call centre ops will be moved.

Sizzler · 24-06-2008 10:01PM

Board-in-work wrote: »

To not continue a policy with Hibernian on the presumption that I'm not going to get good customer service, simply because the call center is located outside of Ireland is a bit of a generalisation.

I would be presuming that all of the workers in that call center would be unable to help me, because their accent, or cultural differences would impede their ability to do their jobs, and offer me assistance. So I would be making presumptions based on the race of the call centers workers.

To say its about rave is absolutely ridiculous. Its about service.

Why did Orange bring it back? Hardly because they were doing such a good job out there :rolleyes:

http://www.callcentrehelper.com/orange-pulls-back-call-centres-from-india-1721.htm

OPENROAD · 24-06-2008 10:31PM

Sizzler wrote: »

To say its about rave is absolutely ridiculous. Its about service.

Why did Orange bring it back? Hardly because they were doing such a good job out there :rolleyes:

http://www.callcentrehelper.com/orange-pulls-back-call-centres-from-india-1721.htm

and some call centres in India provide a good service and transfer of call centres have worked out well in terms of service.

Fratton Fred · 24-06-2008 11:17PM

colly10 wrote: »

This is why it's worrying to see 600 jobs move, is it the begining of the end for Irish jobs?

but people need to realise that the cost base needs reducing. the simplest way to do that is stop putting wages up beyond the rate of inflation and improve productivity.

For some unknown reason, the country that is among the most sparcely populated in Europe has some of the highest land prices. Gas and Electricity are the highest in europe and why? well the average salary at Poolbeg power station is over €110,000 per year, maybe that is one reason.

Eircom has whole departmens of people who are known as the TeePee departments, because all they do is dink tea and pee, their jobs went long ago but they have a job for life so still get a salary.

It's not hard to see why jobs are going, but boycotting companies ain't gonna stop it.

Occam · 24-06-2008 11:19PM

This story seems to be getting more than a little sensationalised, but heres my 2cents anyway.....

It can be of no suprise to anyone that Hibenian have outsourced some of their operation. Given that even the public sector is outsourcing some tasks to India, we can hardly be suprised when a company follows the strategy of the rest of their industry, and indeed their parent company.

The suggestion that outsourcing doesn't work, or that these jobs will eventually come back is rather silly. Offshoring and outsourcing to India has been happening since the 80s, and with overall excellent results.

The idea of avoiding hibernian because of this is a hilarious - if you refused to do business with any company that outsourced anything to India you would very quickly run out of companies, whether they have gone public on the outsourcing or not.

Muzzy · 24-06-2008 11:54PM

The Galway center which looks after all Sales and service calls with Direct customers, will see the service calls are all going to India, this will effect all mid term queries like Direct debit queries, renewals, Temp/Permenant substitutions, etc.

When you call for a sales call you will speak to an agent from Galway.

So they are using Paddy's "Gift of the Gab" to sell you the product and Apu's "Thank you, come again soon" to service it. That was the lesson that they learnt when Aviva moved call center operations to India with regards Norwich Union a couple years back.

Vivas health, sales and service will be moving to Galway to replace what's gone in Galway. Galway will also be looking after Corporate Partners i.e Tesco Car Insurance, AIB car insurance, broker calls etc. Numbers in Galway will remain pretty much the same as is.

Claims will also stay put in Galway, however the Own Damage Dept is moving to India.

Dunno what is happening in Cork.

As for Dublin, back office is being cut, Accounts/Finance/Marketing/IT Support etc.

With regards the branchs, they are not changing what so ever, so you can still call your local branch. You can still get Irish customer service there

Indian Customer service will be phased in in the first quater of '09.

DublinBird · 25-06-2008 02:59AM

Joke of the day in Hibernian - "that's it - I'm cancelling my staff policy, AND telling my family to cancel their policies - oh, AND all my friends too ... oh ... er ... wait a minute ... there's ANOTHER batch of 580 jobs going?? ... they're going India TOO you say??!?!?"

Heard this kind of joke repeated around the building lots of times today.

From what I've heard in the Dublin office, it is policy admin that is going to feel the major cuts - the work that doesn't necessarily involve dealing directly with a customer, and they are keeping a core of very experienced staff who can "relationship manage" the customers - just that setting up policies and doing basic faceless admin will be shipped off to India. So you still get to speak to someone in HQ in Dublin - if you are important enough, i.e. a broker with a chunk of business - or a policyholder who kicks up!

tech77 · 25-06-2008 06:31AM

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Mathematics does not come into it dear boy, it is a simple case of language structure.
"Last" implies "previous".
What you should have said was
"They were only told in March...." as this would have indicated that you were referring to an event in the past, with a specific calender timeframe. Since I can anticipate your rebuttal to that point, the above does not contain the possibility that you could be referring to March 2009, as the sentence is clearly in the past tense.
"They were only told last March..." indicates that you are referring to March in the past tense, however you are not referring to the closest March to our current frame of reference, but the March preceding that one, eg: March 2007.

Quite why you assume my mathematical skills are lacking simply because you don't understand the English language is something I shall have to leave you to explain for yourself. For your edification, however, I have corrected your most egregious errors of language below;

Notes:
An ellipsis only has 3 dots.
"Smilies", while repugnant gramatically, should really be placed after the full stop, as the full stop indicates the end of the sentence and the "smiley" indicates the intended tone or feeling you wish to reflect with it.

Your concern regarding my educational state is duly noted.

LOL
Merciless.

mikemac · 25-06-2008 08:59AM

Occam wrote: »

Given that even the public sector is outsourcing some tasks to India, we can hardly be suprised when a company follows the strategy of the rest of their industry, and indeed their parent company.

Which branch of public sector did this? Was it do with some software application?
I'm interested to know and I'm amazed it'll wasn't well publicised.

Or maybe it was but I missed it. It's definitly suprising

Neamhshuntasach · 25-06-2008 09:21AM

newestUser wrote: »

These jobs weren't *taken*. It's not like 'the English' or someone came in and "took" the jobs at gunpoint. The work is being transferred over to another country with lower costs and an educated workforce. We were the beneficiaries of such reasoning before, and were proud to boast of our wonderful economy's ability to attract FDI, and how the rest of the world loved us, blah blah blah, so complaining now about this action by Hibernia is *totally* hyprocritical on the parts of large sections of Irish society.

And in any case, what do you propose doing to prevent this? Handcuffing companies working in Ireland to this country and our people by some means? Goodbye FDI.

I know the jobs aren't being taken. That's why i am not pissed off with the Indians who will be going in and taking over the positions previously filled by Irish workers or workers living in Ireland. It's in the company where my animosity lays as 600 employees will be out of a job. How many employees went ahead with a mortgage because they thought they had a secure job? Had kids? Etc. Irish workers were good enough while they were cheap. But now that we get expensive it's time to up sticks. I know that's how big business works but everyone is still entitled to complain or be unhappy about it. Just because something works in that manner doesn't mean you have to accept it. I hate that reasoning for defending something. "Oh well that's the law" or "Oh well that's just the way it is". Man made things can never take precedence over human emotion. That's why people complain about things regardless of an effect it has.

And i never asked for foreign investment in Ireland and i'm sure the average Irish person like the ones who occupy positions in Hibernia never asked for them to come over here either. Not to say we weren't all glad of the job opportunities they presented. And i never boasted about our ability to attract FDI nor have i heard anyone i know boast about it. So how does that make myself or the average Irish person hypocritical? By your logic i'd be hypocritical if i found a tenner on the ground today and then i lost a tenner the following week and complained about it.

chipclub · 25-06-2008 09:59AM

I work for Hibernian. My salary has increased by 32% since 2003 and I must admit that I have done nothing out of the ordinary to merit this. I have neither asked for a raise nor worked my arse off to win one. The 32% is a combination of the National Wage Agreement and Hibernian's own yearly salary increment structure, both of which were handed to me on a plate after Union led negotiations. I am not even a member of a Union.

That 32% increase is basic salary. Include the employer's PRSI contribution, pension contribution and yearly bonus and the cost of employing me has risen by more than 40% in 5 years and now the Union cries foul when it all comes home to roost.

0ubliette · 25-06-2008 10:25AM

Sorry to say this, but, as anyone whos ever dealt with Dell knows, indian call centres are MUCK. In all honesty, what is the point of basing the call centre that services an almost 99% english speaking poulation, to a country where english isnt the native language?
All it does is drive away customers, as not many people enjoy having to spell every second word phonetically and talk as if theyre speaking to a 4 year old just because Parkseeth from india cant understand the dublin twang

Run_to_da_hills · 25-06-2008 10:52AM

0ubliette wrote: »

Sorry to say this, but, as anyone whos ever dealt with Dell knows, indian call centres are MUCK. In all honesty, what is the point of basing the call centre that services an almost 99% english speaking poulation, to a country where english isnt the native language?
All it does is drive away customers, as not many people enjoy having to spell every second word phonetically and talk as if theyre speaking to a 4 year old just because Parkseeth from india cant understand the dublin twang

I can back that up, a mate of mine is a manager at Dell in Cherrywood and he is dealing with the call centers in India day in and day out and they do his block in.

I am fortunate enough to know the NATO phonetic alphabet from my early CB Radio days but it is well worth having it at your finger tips when you dealing with all Indian call centers.

A - Alfa
B - Bravo
C - Charlie
D - Delta
E - Echo
F - Foxtrot
G - Golf
H - Hotel
I - India
J - Juliett
K - Kilo
L - Lima
M - Mike
N - November
O - Oscar
P - Papa
Q - Quebec
R - Romeo
S - Sierra
T - Tango
U - Uniform
V - Victor
W - Whiskey
X - X-ray
Y - Yankee
Z - Zulu

4Xcut · 25-06-2008 11:08AM

0ubliette wrote: »

Sorry to say this, but, as anyone whos ever dealt with Dell knows, indian call centres are MUCK. In all honesty, what is the point of basing the call centre that services an almost 99% english speaking poulation, to a country where english isnt the native language?
All it does is drive away customers, as not many people enjoy having to spell every second word phonetically and talk as if theyre speaking to a 4 year old just because Parkseeth from india cant understand the dublin twang

Thing with dell is that their after sales service is sh1te, just as you say. However, their prices are exceptionally low, especially for laptops. Its the same with ryanair(not call-centre, but crap service) because they charge feck all. That's why people go to them.

newestUser · 25-06-2008 11:14AM

Neamhshuntasach wrote: »

I know the jobs aren't being taken.

Your language in your earlier post indicates otherwise:

Neamhshuntasachs earlier post wrote: »

So because a percentage of Irish people in the past have emigrated around the world due to famine, oppression and our economic state, Irish people of today should always sit back and let other people take our jobs without complaint

Neamhshuntasach wrote: »

That's why i am not pissed off with the Indians who will be going in and taking over the positions previously filled by Irish workers or workers living in Ireland. It's in the company where my animosity lays as 600 employees will be out of a job. How many employees went ahead with a mortgage because they thought they had a secure job? Had kids? Etc. Irish workers were good enough while they were cheap. But now that we get expensive it's time to up sticks.

Implying that Hibernians actions are morally dodgy because their employees are young couples, with enormous mortgages, and cute kids, etc. etc. is playing to the gallery. The personal debts that are hanging over their employees aren't any concern of a business. No company is obliged to employ people because of their personal financial circumstances.

Neamhshuntasach wrote: »

I know that's how big business works but everyone is still entitled to complain or be unhappy about it. Just because something works in that manner doesn't mean you have to accept it. I hate that reasoning for defending something. "Oh well that's the law" or "Oh well that's just the way it is". Man made things can never take precedence over human emotion. That's why people complain about things regardless of an effect it has.

While I understand that this is an emotional issue for many people (especially those who are to lose their jobs), over the long term anger is pointless. The jobs will be gone, nothing can be done about this. I couldn't get a job after the dot-com crash, and had to go back to college. I was angry about it, but I didn't feel hard-done by because I was "entitled" to a job. You have to take these things on the chin, and accept that there's a lot of ****ty things that happen to people over which they have little or no control.

Neamhshuntasach wrote: »

And i never asked for foreign investment in Ireland and i'm sure the average Irish person like the ones who occupy positions in Hibernia never asked for them to come over here either.

I never specifically asked for foreign investment either. What's your point?

Neamhshuntasach wrote: »

Not to say we weren't all glad of the job opportunities they presented. And i never boasted about our ability to attract FDI nor have i heard anyone i know boast about it. So how does that make myself or the average Irish person hypocritical? By your logic i'd be hypocritical if i found a tenner on the ground today and then i lost a tenner the following week and complained about it.

In my earlier post I said that complaint would be hyprocritical on the part of "large sections of Irish society". Not "all Irish society". If you've never heard someone sell the "Celtic Tiger" economy, or some Fianna Fail incumbent praise all the sterling work they've done building our miracle economy, or never heard someone justify spending 400,000 on a shoe-box by saying our economy's fundamentals justify such prices, you must never have opened a newspaper, watched TV, listened to the radio, or interacted with any people at all over the last 10/15 years! The Celtic Tiger is/was a very self-aggrandising beast.

Fair enough, if you've never boasted about the Celtic Tiger, you may rightly say I'm being harsh about you being a hypocrite if you've a problem with Hibernian outsourcing these jobs. But would you be willing to banish Intel/Pfizer/Dell/Microsoft/Ericsson/Bank of Scotland/Wyeth/Merck/Oracle etc. etc. from these shores, because you think that the free movement of trade is wrong and deprives Irish people of work they are entitled to? Does that not strike you as counter-intuitive reasoning, given our history?

Saint_Mel · 25-06-2008 11:19AM

Just on the customer service reps being Indian. A few weeks ago my girlfriend was in a crash and rang Hibernian to let them know. It wasnt her fault or anything and the other drivers insurance coughed up but she thought she should declare it to Hib anyway.

So she rang up and was talking to an Indian cust service guy. Very plesent but everything had to be repeated 4 or 5 times. So the call ended with him saying she would get a call back the next day. 3 days passed and no call so she rang again and got talking to an Irish person. Went through the details and turned out that the origonal call was never logged on the system at all. Couldnt understand why there was no record of the call taken but when she heard the previous persons name she said something like , "Ah! that explains it!"

0ubliette · 25-06-2008 11:22AM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I am fortunate enough to know the NATO phonetic alphabet from my early CB Radio days but it is well worth having it at your finger tips when you dealing with all Indian call centers.

I too learnt the phonetic alphabet from working in HP

people in my new job give me odd looks when i use it tho, i reckon they think im trying to be Andy McNab or some ****..bravo two delta force etc

But having seen first hand what a negative effect bringing non-english speakers into an english call centre did when i was in HP, i can only imagine this being very bad for business in Hibernia

Run_to_da_hills · 25-06-2008 11:31AM

0ubliette wrote: »

I too learnt the phonetic alphabet from working in HP
people in my new job give me odd looks when i use it tho, i reckon they think im trying to be Andy McNab or some ****..bravo two delta force etc

But having seen first hand what a negative effect bringing non-english speakers into an english call centre did when i was in HP, i can only imagine this being very bad for business in Hibernia

Maybe Hibernian can give out a laminated card with the phonetic alphabet to all their policy holders.

menoscemo · 25-06-2008 11:41AM

I don't know if calls will be taken in India, but if so, this will be a disaster.

Imagine trying to explain to an indian that you have just had an accident in Dun Laoghaire???

I once worked in a call centre in Belgium where we recieved calls from all over Europe. I would take a lot of calls from the English and Irish market and was always able to log the calls quickly and get in a few jokes and some small chat. Really the key word is empathy. Customers appreciate getting some empathy from the person on the other end of the phone. Several Belgian, Dutch and other call operators would also recieve the calls, and while their English is absolutely excellent, the cultural difference is very marked, they had no 'banter' with the customers and wanted to ask A B C i.e the facts. I know for a fact that customers in English speaking markets always preferred speaking to me or any other native speaker and the same goes for Spanish, italian etc customers as well.

Saying that complaining about this is in any way racist is completely wrong. When someone is stressed they want to be able to speak to someone who understands them completely, not just from a language point of view, but from an emotional and cultural one as well. No matter how good your English is you will not be able to deal with customers unless you are irish or have lived there for a long period of time and understand the culture.

on a side note, after I left my job in Belgium the bulk of customer service was moved to india. It was a disater and had to be moved back within the year due to customer dissatisfaction. This is the way i see this going too.

meglome · 25-06-2008 11:42AM

Capitalism is as capitalism does.

Personally I hate Dells customer service nowadays and have used them less than I did in the past. I think Hibernians decision is short-sighted and considering the backlash to Indian call centres in the UK you'd think they'd have learned something. I assume they think we'll just roll over and take what ****e they throw at us. I've nothing whatsoever against India but I like to deal with people with some local knowledge and that they actually understand what you're on about.

Mena · 25-06-2008 11:50AM

Hmm, slightly skewed from the main topic but, why do you all (well ok, a lot of posters) seem to have such a problem dealing with an Indian accent? I find them perfectly understandable to say the least... Is it an Irish thing?

menoscemo · 25-06-2008 11:51AM

Mena wrote: »

Hmm, slightly skewed from the main topic but, why do you all (well ok, a lot of posters) seem to have such a problem dealing with an Indian accent? I find them perfectly understandable to say the least... Is it an Irish thing?

See my post 2 above.

bill_ashmount · 25-06-2008 12:00PM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I can back that up, a mate of mine is a manager at Dell in Cherrywood and he is dealing with the call centers in India day in and day out and they do his block in.

I am fortunate enough to know the NATO phonetic alphabet from my early CB Radio days but it is well worth having it at your finger tips when you dealing with all Indian call centers.

I had to use this with Ryanair once. Phone call was £1.50 sterling a minute. Took 10 minutes and me trying to think of words beginning with the letters they couldn't understand, lol.

bill_ashmount · 25-06-2008 12:02PM

Mena wrote: »

Hmm, slightly skewed from the main topic but, why do you all (well ok, a lot of posters) seem to have such a problem dealing with an Indian accent? I find them perfectly understandable to say the least... Is it an Irish thing?

I deal with Indians and Chinese a lot, I find it almost impossible to understand them, I find they don't slow down to make it easier. Although I'm sure they have the exact same problem with me....

meglome · 25-06-2008 12:05PM

menoscemo wrote: »

I don't know if calls will be taken in India, but if so, this will be a disaster.

Imagine trying to explain to an indian that you have just had an accident in Dun Laoghaire???

I once worked in a call centre in Belgium where we recieved calls from all over Europe. I would take a lot of calls from the English and Irish market and was always able to log the calls quickly and get in a few jokes and some small chat. Really the key word is empathy. Customers appreciate getting some empathy from the person on the other end of the phone. Several Belgian, Dutch and other call operators would also recieve the calls, and while their English is absolutely excellent, the cultural difference is very marked, they had no 'banter' with the customers and wanted to ask A B C i.e the facts. I know for a fact that customers in English speaking markets always preferred speaking to me or any other native speaker and the same goes for Spanish, italian etc customers as well.

Saying that complaining about this is in any way racist is completely wrong. When someone is stressed they want to be able to speak to someone who understands them completely, not just from a language point of view, but from an emotional and cultural one as well. No matter how good your English is you will not be able to deal with customers unless you are irish or have lived there for a long period of time and understand the culture.

on a side note, after I left my job in Belgium the bulk of customer service was moved to india. It was a disater and had to be moved back within the year due to customer dissatisfaction. This is the way i see this going too.

+1

Run_to_da_hills · 25-06-2008 12:05PM

Mena wrote: »

Hmm, slightly skewed from the main topic but, why do you all (well ok, a lot of posters) seem to have such a problem dealing with an Indian accent? I find them perfectly understandable to say the least... Is it an Irish thing?

Until you have to explain something :eek:

bill_ashmount wrote: »

I had to use this with Ryanair once. Phone call was £1.50 sterling a minute. Took 10 minutes and me trying to think of words beginning with the letters they couldn't understand, lol.

The NATO phonetic alphabet should become mandatory for any telesales or customer service personnel globally.

johnnyq · 25-06-2008 12:10PM

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Notes:
An ellipsis only has 3 dots.
"Smilies", while repugnant gramatically, should really be placed after the full stop, as the full stop indicates the end of the sentence and the "smiley" indicates the intended tone or feeling you wish to reflect with it.

Your concern regarding my educational state is duly noted.

Wow, you really showed gixerfixer who's boss.

Of course your rush to use words like 'egregious' would have been a lot more convincing if you had spelled the basics like 'calendar' correctly. But there you go.

Run to da Hills wrote:

Until you have to explain something

+1
Imagine how 'egregious' SlutMonkey would cope

Hibernian to shift admin to India. I won't insure with them in future.

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