Provisional License Drivers off the road from next week

Spud83 · 23-06-2008 04:44PM

valz_walsh wrote: »

I compleatly understand where your coming from, but wouldnt the thought of the possibility of a test make people try to be better drivers. I wouldnt by no means say that Im the best driver out there, but I see some people on the roads, who dont bother with an indicator, break the speed limit, weave in and out of traffic, cut in front of a driver at a junction, and get confused at a roundabout, and it drives me mad. People pick up bad habits along the way, tests could stop some of that.

In a perfect world the gardai the would catch all these bad drivers and that would be the end of it, but the gardai arent always there. So these drivers keep doing what there doing, until their in an accident.

There's also drivers out there that have licences, and never did a driving test. I dont know the in's and out's of it, but its something to do with Charlie Haughy giving them out years ago. Im only aware if this, because a woman I work with has one of these licences, and she is possibly the worst driver out there. Absolutally lethal on the road.

There are hundreds of people out there, that if they did their test now, after having the full licence for 10-15 years wouldnt have a hope in passing the test now.

Your points are all good. People do pick up bad habits along the way, and maybe a re-test is needed. However I dont think a re-test will accomplish much as people will be confident of being able to show up on test day with one or two pre-tests behind them and pass the test. So although they would be made aware of thier bad habits I wouldn't imagine people would change. "Sure I have been like this for years and never been in an accident" kind of attitude.

You are correct about licenses being handed out years ago. But should we not commend our goverment of now for actually trying to deal with the problem by reduce waiting times (alre not fully but I dont think people can argue against the massive improvement in this area this year), instead of ignoring it like previous goverments.

Spud83 · 23-06-2008 04:46PM

Naos wrote: »

Well having read up on it, if you currently hold a provisonal liscence, issued prior to Oct 2007, you will be exempt from the six month wait? Is that correct?

The six month wait realtes to the new learners permits that were issued instead of provisonal licenses from Oct 2007. However anyone holding a license since before then has already held the licence for six months.

Spud83 · 23-06-2008 04:47PM

DarkJager wrote: »

I'm sorry but that is complete bullsh1t. What does a little piece of paper have to say about how suitable your car is to drive? From what I recall, the NCT can be very picky about what they fail. You don't fail the NCT neccesarily based on how worthy your car is to be on the road.

I'm sorry I thought that was the point of the NCT? Maybe you could explain the point of the NCT to me?

techdiver · 23-06-2008 04:47PM

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

Your points are all good. People do pick up bad habits along the way, and maybe a re-test is needed. However I dont think a re-test will accomplish much as people will be confident of being able to show up on test day with one or two pre-tests behind them and pass the test. So although they would be made aware of thier bad habits I wouldn't imagine people would change. "Sure I have been like this for years and never been in an accident" kind of attitude.

You are correct about licenses being handed out years ago. But should we not commend our goverment of now for actually trying to deal with the problem by reduce waiting times (alre not fully but I dont think people can argue against the massive improvement in this area this year), instead of ignoring it like previous goverments.

The core problem of dangerous and reckless driving will still remain whether we have more fully licensed drivers on the road or not. It is paying lip service to the issue of road deaths. A piece of paper will not magically fix the problem.

Spud83 · 23-06-2008 04:51PM

techdiver wrote: »

The core problem of dangerous and reckless driving will still remain whether we have more fully licensed drivers on the road or not. It is paying lip service to the issue of road deaths. A piece of paper will not magically fix the problem.

I think forcing people to actually have to learn how to drive will help with the amount of dangerous and reckless driving we see. Do you honestly think people should be allowed drive on the road without passing some kind of test?

Will it solve the problem? Off course not, only Garda enforcement will. Yet people give out them hiding in bushes and behind bus stops trying to catch people speeding too.

What is your solution?

RuailleBuaille · 23-06-2008 04:51PM

RATM wrote: »

So Im guessing those who are going to continue to break the law will take down their L plates and thus make it more dangerous on the roads as other drivers can't distinguish that they are learners.

I think this is hilarious.
The logic being that 'other drivers' will take their time and be patient with L drivers if they are clearly designated as such?
And that if there are no L drivers then 'other drivers' can just rally up and down the roads of the country, business as usual?
Have you driven in Dublin recently?

I also love the way certain 'other drivers' (or fully licensed drivers as they are usually known) think that because they have full licenses that they are automatically capable drivers. It's laughable.
The amount of people on the road who don't feel the need to indicate makes me want to scream - guarantee you all L drivers know what their indicators are for.
(I'm fully licensed now btw and I am average at best.

)
I would like to see an advanced driving course available for those who hold a full license, like the one the Gardai do. You know, to improve reaction times, driving in dangerous conditions etc.
I think all provisional drivers should have to complete a course in Mondello (for example) for the same stuff.
And I REALLY think that somewhere like Mondello should be made available for all the boy racers to go and rally their cars, get it out of their system and learn how to cope with the unexpected.
You can't beat practical experience.

Spud83 · 23-06-2008 04:54PM

RuailleBuaille wrote: »

I think this is hilarious.
The logic being that 'other drivers' will take their time and be patient with L drivers if they are clearly designated as such?
And that if there are no L drivers then 'other drivers' can just rally up and down the roads of the country, business as usual?
Have you driven in Dublin recently?

I also love the way certain 'other drivers' (or fully licensed drivers as they are usually known) think that because they have full licenses that they are automatically capable drivers. It's laughable.
The amount of people on the road who don't feel the need to indicate makes me want to scream - guarantee you all L drivers know what their indicators are for.
(I'm fully licensed now btw and I am average at best. )
I would like to see an advanced driving course available for those who hold a full license, like the one the Gardai do. You know, to improve reaction times, driving in dangerous conditions etc.
I think all provisional drivers should have to complete a course in Mondello (for example) for the same stuff.
And I REALLY think that somewhere like Mondello should be made available for all the boy racers to go and rally their cars, get it out of their system and learn how to cope with the unexpected.
You can't beat practical experience.

Advanced driving test.

gixerfixer · 23-06-2008 05:00PM

Ive got a full licence for donkeys years but im going to put up L plates just to annoy people when they see me out in the car by myself

techdiver · 23-06-2008 05:04PM

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

I think forcing people to actually have to learn how to drive will help with the amount of dangerous and reckless driving we see. Do you honestly think people should be allowed drive on the road without passing some kind of test?

Will it solve the problem? Off course not, only Garda enforcement will. Yet people give out them hiding in bushes and behind bus stops trying to catch people speeding too.

What is your solution?

The phrase "some kind of test", is exactly what is happening. It's better to construct something sub standard, call it a test and everything is ok.

I do not believe that people should be allowed to drive without first learning how to do so properly, as I have done, but our current method of measurement falls way behind what is required.

Even sports like scuba diving have a much more thorough means of training and testing their applicants.

You attend a fixed number of Theory and practical classes after which you are examined in both theory and practical skills. After this you are brought out to do 4 sea dives where you apply what you have learned in a real world situation.

Now I'm not advocating cloning the above, but I'm just saying when something is structured/ran and staffed correctly produces far superior results.

Spud83 · 23-06-2008 05:16PM

techdiver wrote: »

The phrase "some kind of test", is exactly what is happening. It's better to construct something sub standard, call it a test and everything is ok.

I do not believe that people should be allowed to drive without first learning how to do so properly, as I have done, but our current method of measurement falls way behind what is required.

Even sports like scuba diving have a much more thorough means of training and testing their applicants.

You attend a fixed number of Theory and practical classes after which you are examined in both theory and practical skills. After this you are brought out to do 4 sea dives where you apply what you have learned in a real world situation.

Now I'm not advocating cloning the above, but I'm just saying when something is structured/ran and staffed correctly produces far superior results.

Oh god we are going around in circles. As I have alrady said many times in this thread that this only the first step in overhauling the driving test. The cant do it all at one.

Imagine they tried to bring in the law for second provisionals, and a new law for restrictions on L plates and the R plate was brought in, and a new driving test all at the same time. I believe this would create chaos. Thats is I believe they have started in the right manner. Get learners of the road under the current system, and then get the waiting times down, then they can look at improving the test and the procedure to become fully licensed.

Quality · 23-06-2008 05:18PM

I think it is a great idea.

It is a joke that you can fail your test and just get back into your car on your own and drive the streets.

I for one feel safer.

techdiver · 23-06-2008 05:24PM

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

Oh god we are going around in circles. As I have alrady said many times in this thread that this only the first step in overhauling the driving test. The cant do it all at one.

Imagine they tried to bring in the law for second provisionals, and a new law for restrictions on L plates and the R plate was brought in, and a new driving test all at the same time. I believe this would create chaos. Thats is I believe they have started in the right manner. Get learners of the road under the current system, and then get the waiting times down, then they can look at improving the test and the procedure to become fully licensed.

Some how I get the sense that you are an intersted party in all of this. You don't work for the RSA by any chance??

Spud83 · 23-06-2008 05:26PM

techdiver wrote: »

Some how I get the sense that you are an intersted party in all of this. You don't work for the RSA by any chance??

I was waiting for a response like that. No i don't. Does that make my points any more or less valid?

techdiver · 23-06-2008 05:28PM

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

I was waiting for a response like that. No i don't. Does that make my points any more or less valid?

I'm only pulling your leg.

In essense we are both in general agreement about the need for improvement, it's just you have much more patience than I have.

Spud83 · 23-06-2008 05:34PM

techdiver wrote: »

I'm only pulling your leg.

In essense we are both in general agreement about the need for improvement, it's just you have much more patience than I have.

Dont worry no offence taken. Yeah there is need for improvement I just get wound up when there is cleraly improvement being made and further improvements trying to be reached but people still give out.

Ciaran500 · 23-06-2008 05:50PM

techdiver wrote: »

The phrase "some kind of test", is exactly what is happening. It's better to construct something sub standard, call it a test and everything is ok. ...

Stop writing in black, not everyone is using a white background.

MooseJam · 23-06-2008 05:51PM

it's a stupid rule, what exactly can the passenger do to stop an accident

Sherifu · 23-06-2008 05:52PM

Is it June already? :eek:

Wertz · 23-06-2008 06:58PM

MooseJam wrote: »

it's a stupid rule, what exactly can the passenger do to stop an accident

Perhaps they could provide pointers and tips verbally to help the learner driver,....otherwise known as creating a distraction.

Perhaps just before a point of impact the passenger could bravely wrestle the steering wheel from the learner driver, or pull the handbrake...otherwise known as reckless endangerment.

Perhaps the passenger could calm other road users by waving their pink license about in order to cancel out the negative effects of the L plates...this method would be especially effective at garda checkpoints, where the passenger's pink license could in fact be used to dispell any imminent hefty fines...

Perhaps in the unfortunate event of an accident, which the accompanying full license holder was powerless to prevent, assuming they're conscious and/or alive, that passenger could keep the drivers spirits up as they're cut from the mangled wreckage of their vehicle, perhaps with some jokes or a songful ditties...they may also provide some company in the back of the ambulance...

Yes, accompanying full license holders ftw on Irish roads...

Wertz · 23-06-2008 07:24PM

Whilst my post was highly facetious and tongue in cheek, instructors have dual control systems in their cars and can provide informed knowledge usually in a less critical way than your relative/friend/whoever.
The point of my driving instructor was in teaching me to drive and to tell me what to do, then see if I could do it, whilst keeping me in check with the dual pedals, then tell me again, rinse repeat, until I got it right...

Spud83 · 23-06-2008 07:36PM

MooseJam wrote: »

it's a stupid rule, what exactly can the passenger do to stop an accident

So people shouldn't be allowed drive at all until they have pasted the test?

Wertz · 23-06-2008 07:48PM

FWIW having a fully licensed driver in their passenger seat should add confidence to the learner driver and should also afford them the privelege of some advice and consolation at certain times, like at junctions or lights...it may also allow them to let the fully licensed driver swap places or take over in the event of their encountering something beyond their ability.
That said, once you have built a level of confidence that allows you out on the open road, all the above may have become superfluous...advice may be well meaning but can be construed as back seat driving or criticsim, not always helpful, there are few situations left on the road which you would need to physically walk away from and have someone drive the car for you...

I'm not saying that an accompanying driver shouldn't be required at a certain point in a driver's elarning curve, I'm saying that past a certain point on that lkearning curve, all they really are is a passenger...

keen · 23-06-2008 07:52PM

Mr.S wrote: »

Whats the point of a Driving instructer then? They give out verbal tips when driving etc, they hardly ever show you acutally what to do...

A driving instructor is there to instruct the learner on how to drive.

Hold down on the clutch, check your mirrors etc.

Most people suggest not to learn to drive by someone you know who isn't a qualified instructor as you pick up bad habits from them which I agree with, so I can't see the benefit of having a full driver in beside you unless there a qualified instructor.

Spud83 · 23-06-2008 08:02PM

Point of a fully licensed driver. The point of a fully licensed driver is not to instruct you to drive. But they are there for added safety. The fully licensed driver should be observing the road ahead and everywhere else that they can see so they can see any hazards coming up and making them aware to the driver and how they should be reacting. They can also provide any required information when approaching junctions roundabouts etc. This helps the learner concentrate on the controls of the car so they can get more comfortable with them, and lets the learner gain more experience without having to shell out to a driving instructor all the time.

However the licensed driver shouldn't be a substitute for a driving instructor they should be sued in conjunction with a qualified instructor so the get taught by the instructor while gaining more experience with the licensed driver.

keen · 23-06-2008 08:09PM

alanmurphy83 wrote: »

Point of a fully licensed driver. The point of a fully licensed driver is not to instruct you to drive. But they are there for added safety. The fully licensed driver should be observing the road ahead and everywhere else that they can see so they can see any hazards coming up and making them aware to the driver and how they should be reacting. They can also provide any required information when approaching junctions roundabouts etc. This helps the learner concentrate on the controls of the car so they can get more comfortable with them, and lets the learner gain more experience without having to shell out to a driving instructor all the time.

However the licensed driver shouldn't be a substitute for a driving instructor they should be sued in conjunction with a qualified instructor so the get taught by the instructor while gaining more experience with the licensed driver.

Meanwhile in the real world the second driver is changing the radio station, having a smoke and chatting to the actual driver.

Spud83 · 23-06-2008 08:17PM

keen wrote: »

Meanwhile in the real world the second driver is changing the radio station, having a smoke and chatting to the actual driver.

I cant see anything that can be done about that to be honest. I don't think getting rid of the accompanying driver rule would be a good idea.

amacca · 24-06-2008 12:06PM

Similar situation, Ive been waiting 5 months, applied the day I failed. Have to drive 20 miles to work, afraid I cant walk or use a bicycle as have things to carry to work. Absolutely no public transport in my area. They are lying about the 8 week waiting time.

I too think the new laws are not necessarily a bad thing but I do believe that the current system is as corrupt as it gets and you cant start enforcing those laws until you improve the system as a whole so people really do have no excuses. The driving test is entirely subjective and not objective. If a tester decides he doesnt like the look of you etc he can fail you citing some reason that you cannot dispute. No one seems to talking about making the test fair. No problem if you want to make it stricter but some controls should be put on the tester. Test should be videotaped or instructor should be allowed come along in the car to make sure that the tester is not simply just failing people to keep his or herself in a job.

The situation was ridiculous before but you cant simply just turn around and say to people, thats it you are off the road. For me its been 12 months I have only had one test in that time despite appling as soon as humaly possible!!! that really is ridiculous!!! this is my means of earning a living we are talking about here. Even if the waiting times were down to 8 weeks that would not be good enough, I cant afford to be without transport for 8 weeks, I cant afford to pay someone to sit in the passenger seat with me. I have already lost countless thousands on increased insurance premiums from being a learner and driving lessons before tests. Are people now expected to default on a mortgages and go hungry or maybe they should take handouts from the welfare state antil they can get their drivers licenses!

They had a ridiculous system before which has left me in the situation im in and now they just expect everyone to fall in line?

I should be able to sit my test within a couple of days of failing (possibly same day), as they do in the states!

techdiver wrote: »

I applied for my driving test on the 28th of April so as to have my test done in time for the end of June deadline. Since applying I have not even received a date for my test even though I applied 7 weeks ago. According to the "Pass Rates and Waiting Times", document on the RSA website it claims that the waiting time in my area is 7 weeks. Now I am no mathematician but I do believe that time has come and gone for me.
If I was to receive my test date today, there would be at least another 4 week wait to be tested! To me this seems like the RSA are deliberately falsifying their figures to meet the commitment made by the RSA/Minister of transport to have tests "On Demand", by the June 30th deadline. I am not the only one who has noticed this as my girlfriend has encountered the same scenario in a different test centre.
Has anyone else experienced this also and if so please write in and let me know, as I think the minister and the RSA are misleading the public in order to claim they have met their targets for June 30th.

rhapsody · 24-06-2008 12:10PM

I posted this somewhere else, but think its relevant here too... just asking what the penalty will be if they do catch an unaccompanying 1st provisional driver? points, fine (how much?) or both?

robinph · 24-06-2008 12:16PM

Wertz wrote: »

I'm not saying that an accompanying driver shouldn't be required at a certain point in a driver's elarning curve, I'm saying that past a certain point on that lkearning curve, all they really are is a passenger...

...and that point in your learning to drive at which they become a passenger and no longer actually required to be there is the point at which the driver has passed their test.

Spud83 · 24-06-2008 12:18PM

amacca wrote: »

Similar situation, Ive been waiting 5 months, applied the day I failed. Have to drive 20 miles to work, afraid I cant walk or use a bicycle as have things to carry to work. Absolutely no public transport in my area. They are lying about the 8 week waiting time.

Do you mind stating what test centre you applied to. Once again have you tried ringing them to ask about your test time? Again these are average times not minumum or maximum times.

I was also trying to think yesterday of how these times are made up, and I came up with this. (Current number of applications for test centre / number of test carried out per week). Now obviously things like cancellations, people failing and reapplying (you), not turning up prepared (no NCT etc) would have an effect on these times.

amacca wrote: »

I too think the new laws are not necessarily a bad thing but I do believe that the current system is as corrupt as it gets and you cant start enforcing those laws until you improve the system as a whole so people really do have no excuses. The driving test is entirely subjective and not objective. If a tester decides he doesnt like the look of you etc he can fail you citing some reason that you cannot dispute. No one seems to talking about making the test fair. No problem if you want to make it stricter but some controls should be put on the tester. Test should be videotaped or instructor should be allowed come along in the car to make sure that the tester is not simply just failing people to keep his or herself in a job.

Corrupt? Maybe you should explain how you failed your test before throwing these accusations around. I dont believe the driving test is subjective. It is broken down into a number of areas and a number of error grades. The testers are told and trained to what constitues an error and what grade that error is? How do you suggest it is made more objective? If you felt you were failed un fairly did you report it to the RSA?

amacca wrote: »

The situation was ridiculous before but you cant simply just turn around and say to people, thats it you are off the road. For me its been 12 months I have only had one test in that time despite appling as soon as humaly possible!!! that really is ridiculous!!! this is my means of earning a living we are talking about here. Even if the waiting times were down to 8 weeks that would not be good enough, I cant afford to be without transport for 8 weeks, I cant afford to pay someone to sit in the passenger seat with me. I have already lost countless thousands on increased insurance premiums from being a learner and driving lessons before tests. Are people now expected to default on a mortgages and go hungry or maybe they should take handouts from the welfare state antil they can get their drivers licenses!

They are not just turning around and saying this to people. The have givin people eight months to get sorted and the majority of people have been given a test in this time. You were given a test and failed yet I bet you still drive everyday. Are provisional are you on 1st 2nd?

amacca wrote: »

They had a ridiculous system before which has left me in the situation im in and now they just expect everyone to fall in line?

I should be able to sit my test within a couple of days of failing (possibly same day), as they do in the states!

Stop playing the victim you got yourself in this situation by A) taking a job you needed to drive to when you didn't have a full license and

failing your test.

Provisional License Drivers off the road from next week

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