return refund or credit note

mossy619 · 04-06-2008 2:30pm #1

i have a slight problem i ahve spoken to a couple on here about it already.i have an aeg thats chronoing between 310 and 344 over ten shots.now i brought it to the shop and they said that they can only offer me a credit note or a replacement but not a full refund because they say its firing under the limit most of the time.but if i cant use the aeg at the weekend in gtac then i want my money back so i can get a aeg that fires constantly under the limit.im sure theres plenty of people in here who know what its like to buy an aeg and the first time they go to use it there told they cant.so please what can i do.i would especialy appreciate help from iaa members.thank you

Gran Hermano · 04-06-2008 2:38pm

Sounds like you purchased an AEG that is not fit for the purpose you
purchased it for - that purpose being both legal (under 1 joule) and fit
for using at a skirmish site.

If the retailer misinformed you by selling an AEG that is both illegal
(albeit part of the time) and unfit for it's intended use it sounds to me
you would have a valid reason to demand a refund or file a case with the
small claims court.

Shiva · 04-06-2008 3:33pm

Gran Hermano wrote: »

Sounds like you purchased an AEG that is not fit for the purpose you
purchased it for - that purpose being both legal (under 1 joule) and fit
for using at a skirmish site.

If the retailer misinformed you by selling an AEG that is both illegal
(albeit part of the time) and unfit for it's intended use it sounds to me
you would have a valid reason to demand a refund or file a case with the
small claims court.

Its not quite that simple....there are no hard and fast rules as to which option you're entitled to - usually, the retailer has the right to offer to repair (in this case, downgrade) the item, or replace it before a refund. If he offers either a replacement or repair in good faith, you don't have a lot to stand on if you go to court. Its only if he takes the item, repairs it, and it then fails again, do you have the right to demand a refund.

A good retailer will offer you the refund anyway, if that's what you want - its called "customer service"

mossy619 · 04-06-2008 3:56pm

see i tried to use it a gtac wen i got it bt it chronoed at 344.i brought it bak to them and they rang the next day to say that they chronoed it ten times and it got the variety as i said above.i went to collect it adn chroned it again ten times and agian i got the same varietion.adn thats when he told me that he cant offer me a refund because its still fit for the purpose intented as 80 percent of the time its firing under the limit.but if i cant use it i just want to get my money back so i can go to a more reputable airsoft shop like eirsoft or sumone.im relatively new to all thsi so i dont know where i stand

Tigger · 04-06-2008 4:03pm

you are entitled to have the item fit for use so it should fire at .9 joule as it was sold as such

it will be fine to have it repaired and i feel that that is what you should do
if the repair is not done to a satissfactory standard you will then be entitled to either a refund or replacement

mossy619 · 04-06-2008 4:05pm

well it all depends on how i get on a gtac.is threre anyway to use scare tactics on them if they wont sort me out

Gran Hermano · 04-06-2008 4:08pm

Well if you're not happy with a gun that is breaking the law 20% of the time
it might be worthwhile lodging a case with the Small Claims Court
for €9 it's not going to cost you much.

I'd be interested to see how a retailer can justify in court selling an AEG that is
illegal to sell or own 20% of the time.

Cuddlesworth · 04-06-2008 4:11pm

mossy619 wrote: »

well it all depends on how i get on a gtac.is threre anyway to use scare tactics on them if they wont sort me out

Contrary to popular opinion, scare tactics tend to make people defensive and hostile. Those two traits are not something you should be aiming for when trying to get something you want.

Lemming · 04-06-2008 4:14pm

Gran Hermano wrote: »

Well if you're not happy with a gun that is breaking the law 20% of the time
it might be worthwhile lodging a case with the Small Claims Court
for €9 it's not going to cost you much.

I'd be interested to see how a retailer can justify in court selling an AEG that is
illegal to sell or own 20% of the time.

Has nobody bothered themselves to read what Shiva wrote already concerning legal entitlements? Or are we so consumerised and cynical that all we think is some sort of f*cking "compo culture" when something is faulty?

Sure, you're entitled to lodge any number of small claims. That doesn't mean it's the first step you are supposed to take in a dispute. You may also be given an unceremonious ejection from the court by the judge along with whatever court costs are incurred.

kdouglas · 04-06-2008 4:14pm

No AEG should vary that much under normal conditions, over a 10 shot string I would expect maybe +/- 5->10fps, if it's varying from 310-344 then it's faulty, if I bought an AEG that was varying wildly between 270 and 304fps (same range, but under the limit) I wouldn't be happy, I know AEGs aren't accurately consistent, but that is quite a large variance. I would go back to the retailer, explain that it is faulty and not suitable for use, a) because the fps varies wildly and b) the fps commonly varies above the legal limit. Based on this I would ask for a repair or refund.

seamus-2k7 · 04-06-2008 4:23pm

I had the exact same problem exept my aeg was hot the whole time.
You are intiltled to refund, repair or replacement if the product is not fit for porpose.
If it is the same retailer as the one i had trouble with just be persistant and you will get your repair replacement or refund. ignore all the BS afterwards.

Stercus Accidit · 04-06-2008 5:08pm

Edit: Sorry misread first post.

I believe the shop is entitled to offer a replacement, instead of a refund, you are not obliged to take store credit though.

seamus-2k7 · 04-06-2008 5:21pm

Motosam wrote: »

Edit: Sorry misread first post.

I believe the shop is entitled to offer a replacement, instead of a refund, you are not obliged to take store credit though.

you are entilted to choose between refund, repair or replacement because your consumer rights have been broken, not fit for porpose

Stercus Accidit · 04-06-2008 5:24pm

seamus-2k7 wrote: »

you are entilted to choose between refund, repair or replacement.

I believe it is at the discretion of the seller to choose.

But credit notes, store credit etc. you are not obliged to take, so they cant offer this as the only option, but can offer it as long as a repair or replacement is also offered.

mcgovern · 04-06-2008 5:27pm

Lemming wrote: »

Sure, you're entitled to lodge any number of small claims. That doesn't mean it's the first step you are supposed to take in a dispute. You may also be given an
unceremonious ejection from the court by the judge along with whatever court costs are incurred.

Unless you appeal a case you lost to the Circuit Court, you can't be charged for court costs, or the defendants costs.

Stercus Accidit · 04-06-2008 5:29pm

mcgovern wrote: »

Unless you appeal a case you lost to the Circuit Court, you can't be charged for court costs, or the defendants costs.

True, and I believe if a small claim is elevated to a higher court, as it was originally a small claim, you are not liable for the other parties costs if you lose.

But don't quote me on that!

Read it in the law forum

seamus-2k7 · 04-06-2008 5:30pm

Motosam wrote: »

I believe it is at the discretion of the seller to choose.

But credit notes, store credit etc. you are not obliged to take, so they cant offer this as the only option, but can offer it as long as a repair or replacement is also offered.

Funny this came up in my last business class, My teacher said it was the consumers decision.

You are not obliged to take credit notes etc. as said above^

Stercus Accidit · 04-06-2008 5:33pm

seamus-2k7 wrote: »

Funny this came up in my last business class, My teacher said it was the consumers decision.

You are not obliged to take credit notes etc. as said above^

This is from awhile back so I can't be sure.

seamus-2k7 · 04-06-2008 5:36pm

Motosam wrote: »

This is from awhile back so I can't be sure.

I'm 99% sure, ive been studyin:p

Tigger · 04-06-2008 5:50pm

these are the retailers obligations

Repairs, replacements or refunds
If your goods fail to comply with any of the above three criteria - for example, they turn out to be faulty or don't live up to their description - consumers have certain legal rights. These entitlements come under the three Rs:

Repair
Replacement
Refund
If you offer to repair the item, the repair should be permanent. If you offer a refund, this can be in cash or by cheque, or (if appropriate) you can refund their credit card account. If you offer a credit note or voucher instead, the consumer has the right to refuse and to ask for a refund instead.

If the shopper is not happy with your offer of a repair, replacement or refund, they have the right to seek an alternative remedy. They are entitled to take legal action if they are not happy with your final offer. They also have the option to refer the matter to the Small Claims Court, which handles claims of up to €2,000 by consumers against shops.

Remember that:

It is up to you whether you wish to operate a returns or exchange policy that goes beyond the consumer's basic statutory rights. While you are not legally obliged to do this, it is considered good business practice to do so and customers may be impressed by your goodwill gesture
If you accept a deposit from a customer and then do not adhere to terms of the contract, eg by taking significantly longer to deliver the product then you may be obliged to refund the deposit
You are entitled to proof of purchase. This doesn't necessarily have to be the receipt. The customer could show the relevant credit card statement or any other documentation that proves the product was purchased in your shop or retail chain
Many retailers exchange unwanted gifts without a receipt if the store's tags or labels are still in place. Some retailers provide a gift receipt that does not state the price of the item but allows the customer to pass on a proof of purchase with the gift.
If a consumer returns faulty goods, remember that it is always you, the retailer -not the manufacturer - who is responsible for sorting out their complaint
Never have notices in your shop or clauses in sales agreements that say things like "No refunds", "Goods will not be exchanged" or "No liability accepted for faulty goods". These types of statements can give the impression that the consumer does not have certain rights under the Act, and you may be committing an offence
Under consumer legislation, it is an offence to make a false or misleading claim about your goods and prices.

Tigger · 04-06-2008 5:50pm

If you purchase faulty goods, you are entitled to seek one of the three forms of redress outlined in the question above. The legislation does not state who chooses the form of redress.
If a repair is offered and accepted, then it should be permanent. If not, and the same fault occurs again, the buyer is entitled to seek another form of redress.

If you are not happy with the seller's final offer you have a right to take legal action. A case can be taken through the Small Claims Court for amounts up to and including €2,000.

It should be borne in mind, though, that if the seller has made a reasonable offer to you, the court would most likely take this into account. There are no hard and fast rules and each case has to be taken on its own merits.

Tigger · 04-06-2008 5:52pm

as i have already stated you should accept the repair and if it is not satisfactory then you will be entitled to a refund or replacement

if you refuse the repair the courts will laugh at you

and btw courts are not nice places to go

Tigger · 04-06-2008 5:53pm

seamus-2k7 wrote: »

Funny this came up in my last business class, My teacher said it was the consumers decision.

You are not obliged to take credit notes etc. as said above^

your teacher is wrong and is under a common misconception

NakedDex · 04-06-2008 6:05pm

As far as I know (and it'd want to be fact given that I operated under these types of laws for several years), the product is deemable (note deemable. IE it must first be subject to technical inspection) faulty for firing with such wild inconsistency, as kd mentioned.

However, as Shiva mentioned, a refund does not have to be offered straight away. As the product is faulty and not unfit for purpose intended (it is technically projecting a bb from it's barrel, albeit at a higher velocity than allowable at times), the store can offer to replace it for a fully functional one (have it chronoed first) or repair the original one to bring it up to a fully functional code (in this case, firing consistently and under the limit).

So initially your first two options are repair or replace. If the replacement item is proving troublesome also, or if the repair has not satisfactorily solved the problem, you are then entitled to the full trifecta of options. Repair again, replace for new or alternative item or a refund.

With all this said, very few retailers from any line of sales would deny you a refund, within a reasonable delay for a faulty item if that was your choice. By "reasonable delay" I mean you don't leave it sitting on a shelf for a month and then suddenly turn up and say "this hasn't worked for a month, give me money". You must make an effort to get in quickly, most retailers, of any products, have a policy of 30 days refund time. After which it's repair or replace only, as most warranties do not include refunds.

Also, with regard to credit notes, you do not have to take a credit note in place of a refund for an item that is still in stock/production providing the "refund period" (as defined in the warranty agreement with shop purchase, mentioned above) has not run out. I believe cash refunds can be denied for items returned under certain circumstances such as extraordinary damage or item line being replaced.

Caveat: These are the interpretation of the law by which I operated for several years in retail without any repremand or information to the contrary. Just be aware that I'm writing the above as my personal appraisal of the situation based on my experience with similar from both sides of the counter.

I'd also like to stress that "scare-tactics" are counter productive in the extreme. There were a few, as there always are in retail, angry customers believing otherwise who attempted to use bully-boy tactics on me to get refunds they were not entitled to. This not only instigated almost immediate, and unneccessary, hostility between the parties, it also served to weaken the individuals argument. Bewarned against them and remember, retail staff are people too. They don't want an argument any more or less than you do. Keep things pleasant and you'll get a lot further.

Hivemind187 · 04-06-2008 6:12pm

mossy619 wrote: »

its still fit for the purpose intented as 80 percent of the time

This parachute is sold as being fit for purpose 80% of the time ... we accept no responsibility every fifth jump from a perfectly good airplane.

Or, in short, that argument is rubbish.

CrazyRabbit · 04-06-2008 6:26pm

Why the hell does everything on this forum have to become so complicated and turn into a marathon of posts with differing opinions?

1. As for a refund, repair or replacement (or credit note if you so wish). Keep it professional & pleasant.
2. If no joy, remind the store that they sold you an illegal firearm if it at any time fires over 1 joule. There are possible legal repercussions in doing this.
3. If all the goodwill options fail, you have the right to make a claim in the small claims court. You could win, you could lose. Most of these claims are settled outside court (I have experience in this matter)

End of story.

horgan_p · 04-06-2008 6:59pm

mossy619 wrote: »

i have a slight problem i ahve spoken to a couple on here about it already.i have an aeg thats chronoing between 310 and 344 over ten shots.now i brought it to the shop and they said that they can only offer me a credit note or a replacement but not a full refund because they say its firing under the limit most of the time.but if i cant use the aeg at the weekend in gtac then i want my money back so i can get a aeg that fires constantly under the limit.im sure theres plenty of people in here who know what its like to buy an aeg and the first time they go to use it there told they cant.so please what can i do.i would especialy appreciate help from iaa members.thank you

o.k. mossy,
the shop has offered you a replacement or credit note .

1) how long have you owned the AEG ?
2) does a replacement not suit you ?
3) is there anything else there you like ?

not trying to be smart but methinks you are jumping the gun a little bit here.usually a little bit of dialogue between you and the retailer can go a long way.
I run 2 businesses and i find it easier to look after the people who come to me and explain exactly what the problem with the goods are rather than posting on an internet board about small claims courts and then threaten legal action without at least letting the shop try to put it right.

actually from rereading the thread - nakeddex has already given you the best advice.

mossy619 · 04-06-2008 8:24pm

riteo then lads i wasnt expectin this much of a response but tanks to everyone who submitted an idea.i dont tink im going to go wit any legal action its 2 much hassle for me.going on all the suggestions my best option seems to be try and get a replacement first adn dont make the mistake of leaving the shop without geting it chronoed first.i dont realy want to get it repaired because the shop dont seem to have the sources to repair it and i dont wanna be wain for weeks while they send it out to b repaired.and as for a refund il leave that as a last resort.tanks again to everyone and il let ye all know what happens

iceage · 04-06-2008 10:56pm

Thats the right way to look at it. If this shop isn't geared to downgrade the piece competantly then a replacement is definately an option, you have to give the shop the chance to offer you options i.e. repair(downgrade) replacement, credit note(you do not have to accept this as a final option) or as a last resort a full refund. Its all about time as well, how long have you had the piece? and if you are willing to let them downgrade it, the fear being of course that they can't for the obvious reasons, they haven't the know how.

In most cases, speaking as a retailer, if push comes to shove, A full refund is the last option, but given the chance I would always try and see the customer sorted first i.e. a repair or replacement and if they are still not happy after all of that then theres the final option. Its rare it should come to that, if you can get a replacement that fits the bill FPS wise I'd take it. but thats just me waffling;) Best of luck.

BFSL · 04-06-2008 11:13pm

Our policy is simple,
We will rectify the problem first then if it happens again we will either replace the product or give a refund, and you cannot get fairer than that, but I am curios to know who the retailer is.

kdouglas · 04-06-2008 11:45pm

BFSL wrote: »

Our policy is simple,
We will rectify the problem first then if it happens again we will either replace the product or give a refund, and you cannot get fairer than that, but I am curios to know who the retailer is.

Under no circumstances is the name of the retailer to be made public here.

BFSL · 04-06-2008 11:51pm

kdouglas wrote: »

Under no circumstances is the name of the retailer to be made public here.

Relax, I only said I was curios::eek:

kdouglas · 05-06-2008 12:27am

I know, but just incase he decided to reply and say who it was.

AirsoftEire.com · 05-06-2008 5:37pm

I'm baffled as to why he didn't just ask for a replacement in the first place, after being offered one directly from the retailer.

You'd have it right now and you'd be able to play at Gtac this weekend. Problem solved.

Steve

SniperSight · 05-06-2008 5:42pm

He wasnt offered a replacement. He was told it couldnt be replaced because it was firing under the majority of the time. According to the retailer that meant it wasnt in need of a replacement. He wanst offered a replacement but a credit note.

AirsoftEire.com · 05-06-2008 5:45pm

mossy619 wrote: »

now i brought it to the shop and they said that they can only offer me a credit note or a replacement but not a full refund because they say its firing under the limit most of the time.

That's what I thought until I re-read his post.

Steve

SniperSight · 05-06-2008 5:49pm

OK, ya sorry.
What he actually meant there is that he was offered a credit note or a replacement, the replacement being a different gun, not the same type as the one he actually wanted.

Sorry there, he says he should have made that clearer.

mossy619 · 06-06-2008 1:56pm

good news all i have just finished talkin with the company involved and they have offered to down grade it to 300 fps which is good enough for me.how ever regarding the fps of the on i have now he said "Regarding the Airsoft Law this item is fully within the boundaries of
legality for Ireland.
It is based on the average result of multiple shots. In your case if you
take the item for 100 shots and divide the fps/shot then it is always under
328fps" is thsi true

Shiva · 06-06-2008 3:58pm

mossy619 wrote: »

It is based on the average result of multiple shots. In your case if you
take the item for 100 shots and divide the fps/shot then it is always under
328fps" is this true

No, its not true.
Whilst an average would be taken if it were chronoed by the ballistics lab, it would be something like the average across 10 shots, not 100.

CrazyRabbit · 06-06-2008 4:54pm

Shiva wrote: »

No, its not true.
Whilst an average would be taken if it were chronoed by the ballistics lab, it would be something like the average across 10 shots, not 100.

Yup, and you'd expect the results to be fairly close to each other.

Remember, if you turn up at a site to play and it chrono's over 1 joule even once, you will not be allowed to play.

Not sure how the guards would respond either. 1/100 shots over 1 joule still makes it a firearm....

mossy619 · 21-06-2008 6:12pm

well i can close th chapter on this annoying chapter on my life...i went yesterday to get a new spring i was given awful directions to the place and when i got therethey were closing and cudnt fit a new downgrade so i got a replacement.i went to the shop 2day and got it chronoed and once again the replacement fired between 345 and 365.so i told them i wanted my refund seen as the replacement wasnt fit for use.i wont b shoppin there ever again.so thank you all for your help and advice.mod u can lock this thread or leave it open for those who may suffer similar problems

weeder · 21-06-2008 6:46pm

name and shame please

mossy619 · 21-06-2008 6:49pm

id love to name and shame but kdouglas already said the shop is name is not to be given.il ask him for permission first

Puding · 21-06-2008 6:58pm

would be interesting to know, we will quickly criticize and bring to people attention foreign stores that do not meet expectations, should be no different for Ireland you should be able to just leave a note in the retailer feedback forum

mossy619 · 21-06-2008 7:17pm

i just got word back and i cant name and shame because some ppl are afraid that legal action may be taken against them.i agree with puding we have no probs naming ther foreign companies but when it comes to the irish ones that mess us about we cant say anything even though i got **** service for a month off them messing me round not giving me directions to there place.adn wrst of all driving from limerick to this place after been told there open till 5 getn down there at three and telling me there closed...i tink they shud be named....

weeder · 21-06-2008 7:39pm

mossy619 wrote: »

id love to name and shame but kdouglas already said the shop is name is not to be given.il ask him for permission first

sorry, didnt notice that

kdouglas · 21-06-2008 7:52pm

mossy619 wrote: »

i just got word back and i cant name and shame because some ppl are afraid that legal action may be taken against them.i agree with puding we have no probs naming ther foreign companies but when it comes to the irish ones that mess us about we cant say anything even though i got **** service for a month off them messing me round not giving me directions to there place.adn wrst of all driving from limerick to this place after been told there open till 5 getn down there at three and telling me there closed...i tink they shud be named....

Unfortunately it could get very messy for boards.ie if you were to publicly name the store on here, so I'll have to repeat as before, the store name should not be given out publicly.

mossy619 · 21-06-2008 8:00pm

thats fair enough i understand that. its nice to see yere standing up for the little people who try to do tings by the book and get screwed...i just dont want other people getn messed round like i did tinking there getn a good deal and turnin out itl cost them more money on phone calls and petrol than the gun is worth:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

mossy619 · 21-06-2008 8:04pm

sorry douglas i just got ure pm there so i understand now.but u can see why im pissed off.i payed 150 for the aeg.about 60 on petrol and anoda 20 on credit oer the last month just dealin with them

kdouglas · 21-06-2008 8:07pm

Leave it with me, I'll discuss this with the other mods.

Puding · 21-06-2008 8:19pm

i understand the position of boards.ie and the mod as representatives of boards, but you can understand how it can look and feel

return refund or credit note

Comments