Lisbon: One Week On, Anyone got Buyers Remorse?

Run_to_da_hills · 19-06-2008 06:48PM

javaboy wrote: »

Please explain how it's a Nazi type fascism when the parliament that was voted into power by the people make a decision to change the law of that country?

Here's how it works: People elect law makers. Law makers make laws. If people don't like laws/law makers people elect new law makers.
Maybe so but that's not what Snollup was saying.

Just like the Nazi party was elected by the people and "laws" were made. In this case a Treaty was made up and it was not put to the floor for people to accept it or not (Except Ireland).

In fact the UK was promised a referendum over this treaty and they never got it. I accept the Lisbon treaty as null and void because it is totally undemocratic and a totalitarian constitution.

javaboy · 19-06-2008 06:56PM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Just like the Nazi party was elected by the people and "laws" were made. In this case a Treaty was made up and it was not put to the floor for people to accept it or not (Except Ireland).

In fact the UK was promised a referendum over this treaty and they never got it. I accept the Lisbon treaty as null and void because it is totally undemocratic and a totalitarian constitution.

I didn't get to vote on the changes to the learner license system either so I guess the whole shower in Leinster House must be Nazis. :rolleyes:

Maybe you just don't understand how a democracy works. Not every piece of legislation needs to be or can be put to the people.

ejmaztec · 19-06-2008 07:09PM

I think that it would be more democratic were we to have a referendum on whether or not we should pay income tax. Whadya think?

Run_to_da_hills · 19-06-2008 07:09PM

javaboy wrote: »

Maybe you just don't understand how a democracy works. Not every piece of legislation needs to be or can be put to the people.

Democracy = People vote and make the decisions.

Dictatorship = Leaders make rules and the people do not have the oppertunity to vote.

Lisbon = Dictatorship.

Lisbon is serious stuff and should have been put to the floor in every country in the EU.

kryogen · 19-06-2008 07:12PM

ejmaztec wrote: »

It was democracy that got their leaders elected.

so they should just blindly follow like obediant slaves?

never have a right to vote on certain things again?

democracy got Hitler elected at first too. what he choose to do after was not democratic though was it, did the country vote to invade poland or did he just decide to do it without asking the people? yes,

but by your definition thats not undemocratic because how he came to power first was democratic yes?

CtrlSource · 19-06-2008 07:14PM

boneless wrote: »

No regrets... we just proved how undemocratic the EU is by the reactions of the big nations governments...

Totally agree. If i ever had doubts (and i did), they have since evaporated.

Please someone correct me if i'm wrong, but i don't recall the same negative rhetoric being directed at the French & Dutch 3 years ago when they ruled out the Constitution. Lisbon is what emerged from that and now i think we need a new Treaty drawn up.

So far it seems likely we wont be asked to vote on Lisbon again, but with our lot, it'd be hard to rule that out just yet :rolleyes:

ejmaztec · 19-06-2008 07:16PM

kryogen wrote: »

democracy got Hitler elected at first too. what he choose to do after was not democratic though was it, did the country vote to invade poland or did he just decide to do it without asking the people? yes,

but by your definition thats not undemocratic because how he came to power first was democratic yes?

If I recall, the Nazi party wasn't elected and only got about a third of the vote. Hitler was invited to the position of Chancellor by Hindenburg. Nobody objected because they were sh1t-scared of Hitler and his cronies. That wasn't democracy, it was a coup.

Caoimhín · 19-06-2008 07:18PM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Just like the Nazi party was elected by the people and "laws" were made. In this case a Treaty was made up and it was not put to the floor for people to accept it or not (Except Ireland).

In fact the UK was promised a referendum over this treaty and they never got it. I accept the Lisbon treaty as null and void because it is totally undemocratic and a totalitarian constitution.

Are you sure its not the CIE/Aliens/National lottery again? Those guys really scare me. I think their mind control devices are getting through my tin foil hat again.
Must up grade and check for micro-chip implants.

kowloon · 19-06-2008 07:24PM

caoibhin wrote: »

Are you sure its not the CIE/Aliens/National lottery again? Those guys really scare me. I think their mind control devices are getting through my tin foil hat again.
Must up grade and check for micro-chip implants.

I find smearing myself with jam helps

rossie1977 · 19-06-2008 07:25PM

ejmaztec wrote: »

If I recall, the Nazi party wasn't elected and only got about a third of the vote. Hitler was invited to the position of Chancellor by Hindenburg. Nobody objected because they were sh1t-scared of Hitler and his cronies. That wasn't democracy, it was a coup.

nazi party won 44% of the vote in 1933 far exceeding the SDPs in second place who won 18%

ejmaztec · 19-06-2008 07:27PM

rossie1977 wrote: »

nazi party won 44% of the vote in 1933 far exceeding the SDPs in second place who won 18%

Thanks for the correction.

kryogen · 19-06-2008 07:30PM

ejmaztec wrote: »

If I recall, the Nazi party wasn't elected and only got about a third of the vote. Hitler was invited to the position of Chancellor by Hindenburg. Nobody objected because they were sh1t-scared of Hitler and his cronies. That wasn't democracy, it was a coup.

"At the July 1932 Reichstag election the Nazis made another leap forward, polling 37.4% and becoming the largest party in the Reichstag by a wide margin."

"Since the new government lacked a majority in parliament, Hitler held a new election in March of 1933. With the communists eliminated, the Nazis dominated the election with 43.9%, and with their Nationalist (DNVP) allies, achieved a parliamentary majority (51.8%).

maybe you should do a little research?

they technically rose to power by electoral vote.

Hitler was offered the chancellor position for a few reasons, one of those was his party had the most support on the right wing side while the KDP had most support on the left wing side. they wouldnt share government because of the obvious opposing views. im not gonna get into this, just research if your interested

ejmaztec · 19-06-2008 07:37PM

kryogen wrote: »

"At the July 1932 Reichstag election the Nazis made another leap forward, polling 37.4% and becoming the largest party in the Reichstag by a wide margin."

"Since the new government lacked a majority in parliament, Hitler held a new election in March of 1933. With the communists eliminated, the Nazis dominated the election with 43.9%, and with their Nationalist (DNVP) allies, achieved a parliamentary majority (51.8%).

maybe you should do a little research?

they technically rose to power by electoral vote.

Hitler was offered the chancellor position for a few reasons, one of those was his party had the most support on the right wing side while the KDP had most support on the left wing side. they wouldnt share government because of the obvious opposing views. im not gonna get into this, just research if your interested

Maybe the nice people at the polling stations helped them to decide who to vote for. They didn't have election monitors then. You might agree that in the Europe of today, things are done a little differently to the way they were done 70 odd years ago.

kryogen · 19-06-2008 07:47PM

conspiracy forum is around here somewhere Ejmaztec.......

arybvtcw0eolkf · 19-06-2008 08:18PM

Whatever doubts I had when I cast my NO vote (and I had some doubts) - I have absolutely no doubts now what-so-ever, I made the right choice.

In fact this week I've found myself turned decidedly anti-EU.

ejmaztec · 19-06-2008 08:36PM

kryogen wrote: »

conspiracy forum is around here somewhere Ejmaztec.......

Is there a thread for people who think that the EU is out to get them?:D

javaboy · 19-06-2008 08:44PM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Democracy = People vote and make the decisions.

Dictatorship = Leaders make rules and the people do not have the oppertunity to vote.

Lisbon = Dictatorship.

Lisbon is serious stuff and should have been put to the floor in every country in the EU.

So what system of government do you want?

There are two extremes.

1) The entire population votes on every single decision.
2) An unelected small group of people make all the decisions.

Most sensible countries go with a compromise where a group of people are elected every few years and those people represent the larger population. When a decision needs to be made, the small group of elected people act like a mini-population by voting. Some decisions cannot legally be made by this elected group and so there must be a referendum.

Some countries go with strategy number 2 which is usually a bad road to go down.

I don't know of any country that uses strategy number 1. It would be a logistical nightmare except maybe in the Vatican state or the principality of Monaco.

Run_to_da_hills · 19-06-2008 08:56PM

javaboy wrote: »

So what system of government do you want?

Voting for a Euro superstate is a big descision for any country to make.

McSandwich · 19-06-2008 09:00PM

UB wrote: »

There's a a Nazi type fascist regime? Is that the same one that allows me to travel unimpeded

Unless you happen to be from one of the new member states...

See David McWilliams' article on this: http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2008/06/18/look-what-we-have-done-for-ordinary-europeans

turgon · 19-06-2008 09:02PM

Anyone else ever feel the urge to hit Kathy Sinnot?

BTW, I dont regret voting NO, the response of some EU leaders has only increased my fear of the hypothetical EU elitism.

Agamemnon · 19-06-2008 09:03PM

I was leaning towards a Yes vote but I had to go to a funeral in another part of the country on the day and missed my chance to vote. Having seen the reactions over the last week, I'm now glad the No side won. EU leaders are coming across as arrogant and contemptuous of the people they should be representing.

andrew · 19-06-2008 10:05PM

FFS can noone understand why the EU leaders are angry? You spend 7 fecking years, YEARS, drafting up a treaty. Thats just drafting the fecking thing. Not putting policy into place, not actually doing any real work, just drafting a treaty. Then, it gets stopped in its tracks. And why? Not because of some big objection. Oh no. Because people couldn't be bothered to try understand it. Because people just 'didn't like it.' Because people were illogically 'afraid' that horrible things would come to pass. I mean how can people seriously compare the Nazi's to the EU. Seriously,give me just one indication that the EU will turn into a regime which starts the biggest war the world has ever seen and embarks on a course of genocide. Because when you compare the EU to Nazi's thats what you're implying. You're saying that the EU is an aggressor, a huge force for evil, when at the same time you just rejected a treaty which puts into law a charter of rights. Why didn't France and Holland get treated like this? Because after France and Holland there was somewhere to go. People didn't like the anthem, the flag, the fact that it was a constitution etc. so it could be changed and it was. When asked the same question however, Irish people don't have an answer! Didn't like the whole Corpo Tax thing? Well I have (OLD) news for you - it was never gonna happen! Our tax was safe! Yet people voted no because of that (and many other uninformed reasons). So you see now the EU has nowhere to go. We were given the best deal possible, and yet arrogantly expected that we'd get a better deal if we said no. We've stopped it in its tracks, and for no good reason. Well done everyone. Nice one.

/rant over.

McSandwich · 19-06-2008 10:12PM

andrew wrote: »

FFS can noone understand why the EU leaders are angry? You spend 7 fecking years, YEARS, drafting up a treaty. Thats just drafting the fecking thing. Not putting policy into place, not actually doing any real work, just drafting a treaty. Then, it gets stopped in its tracks. And why? Not because of some big objection. Oh no. Because people couldn't be bothered to try understand it. Because people just 'didn't like it.' Because people were illogically 'afraid' that horrible things would come to pass. I mean how can people seriously compare the Nazi's to the EU. Seriously,give me just one indication that the EU will turn into a regime which starts the biggest war the world has ever seen and embarks on a course of genocide. Because when you compare the EU to Nazi's thats what you're implying. You're saying that the EU is an aggressor, a huge force for evil, when at the same time you just rejected a treaty which puts into law a charter of rights. Why didn't France and Holland get treated like this? Because after France and Holland there was somewhere to go. People didn't like the anthem, the flag, the fact that it was a constitution etc. so it could be changed and it was. When asked the same question however, Irish people don't have an answer! Didn't like the whole Corpo Tax thing? Well I have (OLD) news for you - it was never gonna happen! Our tax was safe! Yet people voted no because of that (and many other uninformed reasons). So you see now the EU has nowhere to go. We were given the best deal possible, and yet arrogantly expected that we'd get a better deal if we said no. We've stopped it in its tracks, and for no good reason. Well done everyone. Nice one.

/rant over.

The condescending tone of this post makes me glad that I voted NO...

Run_to_da_hills · 19-06-2008 10:15PM

McSandwich wrote: »

This condescending tone of this post makes me glad that I voted NO...

+1

ejmaztec · 19-06-2008 10:29PM

Does all of this mean that if there is another referendum, everybody's going to vote no because they feel insulted? One reason's as good as another I suppose

Run_to_da_hills · 19-06-2008 10:41PM

ejmaztec wrote: »

Does all of this mean that if there is another referendum, everybody's going to vote no because they feel insulted? One reason's as good as another I suppose

If there is another referendum i am going to vote no. What do these Euro dictators not understand about the word NO. If we had a yes vote would they make us do the referendum again? Absolutly not.

utick · 19-06-2008 10:43PM

+1

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

+1

ejmaztec · 19-06-2008 10:54PM

There're a lot of big 1s on this thread, that's for sure:p

andrew · 19-06-2008 10:59PM

In before 'you're what's wrong with the yes side.'

RATM · 19-06-2008 11:01PM

McSandwich wrote: »

The condescending tone of this post makes me glad that I voted NO...

+1

The logic seems to be that the treaty took 7 years to put together, therefore it must be good.....Doh! The Chinese took alot longer than 7 years to build the Great Wall but that didnt stop Genghis Khan bribing the sentry guards to let his troops climb over it.... length of time spent on doing something does not necessarily equate to greatness.

Sure no-one could even understand the thing, why would anyone vote for something they don't understand? Because politicans say so and we should all follow like sheep? Yeah right....

Lisbon: One Week On, Anyone got Buyers Remorse?

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