Lisbon: One Week On, Anyone got Buyers Remorse?

RATM

Just wondering after watching the events of today and the last week does anyone have buyers remorse over voting no? The Yes side seem to think No voters were conned into something, anyone feeling this way?

For me there's no regrets, rocky times ahead but I still feel it was the right vote under the circumstances.

ejmaztec

You tuk are jarbs!

boneless

No regrets... we just proved how undemocratic the EU is by the reactions of the big nations governments...

biko

Indeed.

Poll?

Neamhshuntasach

I'll vote no for any further political integration in Europe in any referendum they put forward. I'm all for trade amongst but not for political cohesion.

funk-you

The comments in the French/Austrian/Dutch/German newspapers alone make me angry as fuck nevermind the bullying their politians are doing. If we were a larger country would they be saying the same?

I thought the EU was built on integration and respect for all.

See my sig.

-Funk

ejmaztec

boneless wrote: »

No regrets... we just proved how undemocratic the EU is by the reactions of the big nations governments...

Impolite? - Yes. Undemocratic? -No.

If I'd spent seven years knocking together a big master-plan, I'd be pretty well pis5ed off seeing it shot down in flames by people who didn't know what was in it, didn't understand it, or went against it because of some bs on a poster.

Jimi-Spandex

boneless wrote: »

No regrets... we just proved how undemocratic the EU is by the reactions of the big nations governments...

You're right there, 854,000 or so people deciding the future of institutions governing 497,000,000 is hardly democratic.

Carroller16

Nope haven't bought anything I've regretted since last week.

heyjude

Jimi-Spandex wrote: »

You're right there, 854,000 or so people deciding the future of institutions governing 497,000,000 is hardly democratic.

They made the rules requiring ratification by all 27 countries and now they don't like it.

No regrets here

funk-you

Jimi-Spandex wrote: »

You're right there, 854,000 or so people deciding the future of institutions governing 497,000,000 is hardly democratic.

We were voting on ratification for ourselves not the rest of the EU. Why does this argument keep getting thrown up. People were being asked to vote on what we wanted in Ireland. Another 19 countries have voted on what the think is in their best interest so far.

Yes our vote has knock on effects 497,000,000 but they are voting for themselves(through parliment rather than referendum). They have as much right to say yes or no as the rest of us.

If italy said no would they be bullied as much?

-Funk

Spook_ie

Jimi-Spandex wrote: »

You're right there, 854,000 or so people deciding the future of institutions governing 497,000,000 is hardly democratic.

I was under the impression that 854,000 people were deciding the future of Ireland.
The rest of the EU decided that 1 country out of 27 could have the Lisbon Treaty being accepted or not ( Or so we were told, which is patently untrue from the rhetoric so far!!)

Steve_o

ejmaztec wrote: »

You tuk are jarbs!

DUUHH TUUK UUU JJJAARRRBBSSS!!!! lol

I voted Yes, so i can take morale high ground if the country goes into the sh*tter...:D

snollup

ejmaztec wrote: »

Impolite? - Yes. Undemocratic? -No.

If I'd spent seven years knocking together a big master-plan, I'd be pretty well pis5ed off seeing it shot down in flames by people who didn't know what was in it, didn't understand it, or went against it because of some bs on a poster.

And you reckon that all those that voted yes had a full understanding of the treaty? Never mind the Euro's pissing me off. It's the Irish yes voting idiots that are getting to me.

I've actually found that for the greater part those that voted against actually had a better understanding of the treaty then the yes voters.

What I would say to the people behind writing the treaty is tough sh1t - Get over it and start looking for an acceptable way to move forward (who for the greater part are mindless fools).

Back to the question. Like previous posters have said, the reaction is showing how undemocratic the process actually is. No regrets!

ejmaztec

snollup wrote: »

And you reckon that all those that voted yes had a full understanding of the treaty? Never mind the Euro's pissing me off. It's the Irish yes voting idiots that are getting to me.

I've actually found that for the greater part those that voted against actually had a better understanding of the treaty then the yes voters.

What I would say to the people behind writing the treaty is tough sh1t - Get over it and start looking for an acceptable way to move forward (who for the greater part are mindless fools).

Back to the question. Like previous posters have said, the reaction is showing how undemocratic the process actually is. No regrets!

You can tell the no voters, they're the ones hobbling around with gunshot wounds to the feet:p

ScumLord

The reactions have been hilarious I'm glad it turned out to be a no vote.

Pompey Magnus

I had been set on voting No up to about three or four days before the vote, I then began to seriously waver between Yes and No as the day drew near but at the end I stuck with No. After seeing the reaction of the Yes side I am now convinced that No was the right choice. The disgraceful reaction of Gay Mitchell alone has convinced me that I couldn't trust the Yes politicians.

justcallmetex

ejmaztec wrote: »

Impolite? - Yes. Undemocratic? -No.

If I'd spent seven years knocking together a big master-plan, I'd be pretty well pis5ed off seeing it shot down in flames by people who didn't know what was in it, didn't understand it, or went against it because of some bs on a poster.

Al the same reasons you voted yes then

justcallmetex

Jimi-Spandex wrote: »

You're right there, 854,000 or so people deciding the future of institutions governing 497,000,000 is hardly democratic.

Don't you mean that it's not democratic that those 497,000,000 had no vote at all!

biko

ejmaztec wrote: »

If I'd spent seven years knocking together a big master-plan, I'd be pretty well pis5ed off seeing it shot down in flames by people who didn't know what was in it, didn't understand it, or went against it because of some bs on a poster.

Damn those French, Dutch and Irish *shakes walking stick*

Run_to_da_hills

Plenty of unanimous NO posters still about on lamp posts through out South Dublin and the funny thing is that, No one is going to get prosecuted for them. I like the one with the three monkeys and the other one with turkey. Perhaps they can keep these in place for the follow up referendum.

BTY I voted NO to Euro fachism and will do the same again should we have another referendum.

Sunny_Dublin

as for the bad press in france/germany it has to be said that this does not seem to represent the opinions of the people in either country. most french and all german people i spoke to over the last 7 days actually think a referendum in their countries would have ended no different and that it is merely politicians and "european elite" who wanted to go forward with the lisbon treaty...
so much so for democracy and people being represented by their politicians...

javaboy

snollup wrote: »

And you reckon that all those that voted yes had a full understanding of the treaty? Never mind the Euro's pissing me off. It's the Irish yes voting idiots that are getting to me.

I've actually found that for the greater part those that voted against actually had a better understanding of the treaty then the yes voters.

What I would say to the people behind writing the treaty is tough sh1t - Get over it and start looking for an acceptable way to move forward (who for the greater part are mindless fools).

Back to the question. Like previous posters have said, the reaction is showing how undemocratic the process actually is. No regrets!

What makes you think the people who wrote this treaty are mindless fools? I'd say it takes some very clever people to put together a treaty that just about all the governments of a 27 nation union can agree on.

I'd say the only mindless fools involved are the people who voted without understanding what they were voting on.

ejmaztec

justcallmetex wrote: »

Al the same reasons you voted yes then

I voted yes because It was a good idea.

justcallmetex wrote: »

Don't you mean that it's not democratic that those 497,000,000 had no vote at all!

It was democracy that got their leaders elected.

javaboy

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Plenty of unanimous NO posters still about on lamp posts through out South Dublin and the funny thing is that, No one is going to get prosecuted for them. I like the one with the three monkeys and the other one with turkey. Perhaps they can keep these in place for the follow up referendum.

BTY I voted NO to Euro fachism and will do the same again should we have another referendum.

I missed the vote on Euro fascism. When was that one?

ejmaztec

javaboy wrote: »

I missed the vote on Euro fascism. When was that one?

That's not until next month - and there's only one box for yes and a wooden box for no.

Run_to_da_hills

javaboy wrote: »

I missed the vote on Euro fascism. When was that one?

At least Ireland had the opportunity to vote unlike the UK and the rest of Europe that was forced into accepting this Nazi type fascist regime.

nyarlothothep

Asking people to vote on Lisbon was like asking someone to sit a test on computational physics, immediate fail.

ART6

javaboy wrote: »

What makes you think the people who wrote this treaty are mindless fools? I'd say it takes some very clever people to put together a treaty that just about all the governments of a 27 nation union can agree on.

I'd say the only mindless fools involved are the people who voted without understanding what they were voting on.

Perhaps the whole point is that the people of Ireland didn't think they were "mindless fools" but people who had an agenda to turn Europe into a soviet state.

javaboy

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

At least Ireland had the opportunity to vote unlike the UK and the rest of Europe that was forced into accepting this Nazi type fascist regime.

Please explain how it's a Nazi type fascism when the parliament that was voted into power by the people make a decision to change the law of that country?

Here's how it works: People elect law makers. Law makers make laws. If people don't like laws/law makers people elect new law makers.

Oh and Godwin's law ftw!

ART6 wrote: »

Perhaps the whole point is that the people of Ireland didn't think they were "mindless fools" but people who had an agenda to turn Europe into a soviet state.

Maybe so but that's not what Snollup was saying.

NextSteps

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

At least Ireland had the opportunity to vote unlike the UK and the rest of Europe that was forced into accepting this Nazi type fascist regime.

There's a a Nazi type fascist regime? Is that the same one that allows me to travel unimpeded, introduced a single currency, ensured that Europe has gone for longer than ever before without a major war, and paid for half my education, employment and the roads I travel on?

Run_to_da_hills

javaboy wrote: »

Please explain how it's a Nazi type fascism when the parliament that was voted into power by the people make a decision to change the law of that country?

Here's how it works: People elect law makers. Law makers make laws. If people don't like laws/law makers people elect new law makers.
Maybe so but that's not what Snollup was saying.

Just like the Nazi party was elected by the people and "laws" were made. In this case a Treaty was made up and it was not put to the floor for people to accept it or not (Except Ireland).

In fact the UK was promised a referendum over this treaty and they never got it. I accept the Lisbon treaty as null and void because it is totally undemocratic and a totalitarian constitution.

javaboy

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Just like the Nazi party was elected by the people and "laws" were made. In this case a Treaty was made up and it was not put to the floor for people to accept it or not (Except Ireland).

In fact the UK was promised a referendum over this treaty and they never got it. I accept the Lisbon treaty as null and void because it is totally undemocratic and a totalitarian constitution.

I didn't get to vote on the changes to the learner license system either so I guess the whole shower in Leinster House must be Nazis. :rolleyes:

Maybe you just don't understand how a democracy works. Not every piece of legislation needs to be or can be put to the people.

ejmaztec

I think that it would be more democratic were we to have a referendum on whether or not we should pay income tax. Whadya think?

Run_to_da_hills

javaboy wrote: »

Maybe you just don't understand how a democracy works. Not every piece of legislation needs to be or can be put to the people.

Democracy = People vote and make the decisions.

Dictatorship = Leaders make rules and the people do not have the oppertunity to vote.

Lisbon = Dictatorship.

Lisbon is serious stuff and should have been put to the floor in every country in the EU.

kryogen

ejmaztec wrote: »

It was democracy that got their leaders elected.

so they should just blindly follow like obediant slaves?

never have a right to vote on certain things again?

democracy got Hitler elected at first too. what he choose to do after was not democratic though was it, did the country vote to invade poland or did he just decide to do it without asking the people? yes,

but by your definition thats not undemocratic because how he came to power first was democratic yes?

CtrlSource

boneless wrote: »

No regrets... we just proved how undemocratic the EU is by the reactions of the big nations governments...

Totally agree. If i ever had doubts (and i did), they have since evaporated.

Please someone correct me if i'm wrong, but i don't recall the same negative rhetoric being directed at the French & Dutch 3 years ago when they ruled out the Constitution. Lisbon is what emerged from that and now i think we need a new Treaty drawn up.

So far it seems likely we wont be asked to vote on Lisbon again, but with our lot, it'd be hard to rule that out just yet :rolleyes:

ejmaztec

kryogen wrote: »

democracy got Hitler elected at first too. what he choose to do after was not democratic though was it, did the country vote to invade poland or did he just decide to do it without asking the people? yes,

but by your definition thats not undemocratic because how he came to power first was democratic yes?

If I recall, the Nazi party wasn't elected and only got about a third of the vote. Hitler was invited to the position of Chancellor by Hindenburg. Nobody objected because they were sh1t-scared of Hitler and his cronies. That wasn't democracy, it was a coup.

Caoimhín

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Just like the Nazi party was elected by the people and "laws" were made. In this case a Treaty was made up and it was not put to the floor for people to accept it or not (Except Ireland).

In fact the UK was promised a referendum over this treaty and they never got it. I accept the Lisbon treaty as null and void because it is totally undemocratic and a totalitarian constitution.

Are you sure its not the CIE/Aliens/National lottery again? Those guys really scare me. I think their mind control devices are getting through my tin foil hat again.
Must up grade and check for micro-chip implants.

kowloon

caoibhin wrote: »

Are you sure its not the CIE/Aliens/National lottery again? Those guys really scare me. I think their mind control devices are getting through my tin foil hat again.
Must up grade and check for micro-chip implants.

I find smearing myself with jam helps

rossie1977

ejmaztec wrote: »

If I recall, the Nazi party wasn't elected and only got about a third of the vote. Hitler was invited to the position of Chancellor by Hindenburg. Nobody objected because they were sh1t-scared of Hitler and his cronies. That wasn't democracy, it was a coup.

nazi party won 44% of the vote in 1933 far exceeding the SDPs in second place who won 18%

ejmaztec

rossie1977 wrote: »

nazi party won 44% of the vote in 1933 far exceeding the SDPs in second place who won 18%

Thanks for the correction.

kryogen

ejmaztec wrote: »

If I recall, the Nazi party wasn't elected and only got about a third of the vote. Hitler was invited to the position of Chancellor by Hindenburg. Nobody objected because they were sh1t-scared of Hitler and his cronies. That wasn't democracy, it was a coup.

"At the July 1932 Reichstag election the Nazis made another leap forward, polling 37.4% and becoming the largest party in the Reichstag by a wide margin."

"Since the new government lacked a majority in parliament, Hitler held a new election in March of 1933. With the communists eliminated, the Nazis dominated the election with 43.9%, and with their Nationalist (DNVP) allies, achieved a parliamentary majority (51.8%).

maybe you should do a little research?

they technically rose to power by electoral vote.

Hitler was offered the chancellor position for a few reasons, one of those was his party had the most support on the right wing side while the KDP had most support on the left wing side. they wouldnt share government because of the obvious opposing views. im not gonna get into this, just research if your interested

ejmaztec

kryogen wrote: »

"At the July 1932 Reichstag election the Nazis made another leap forward, polling 37.4% and becoming the largest party in the Reichstag by a wide margin."

"Since the new government lacked a majority in parliament, Hitler held a new election in March of 1933. With the communists eliminated, the Nazis dominated the election with 43.9%, and with their Nationalist (DNVP) allies, achieved a parliamentary majority (51.8%).

maybe you should do a little research?

they technically rose to power by electoral vote.

Hitler was offered the chancellor position for a few reasons, one of those was his party had the most support on the right wing side while the KDP had most support on the left wing side. they wouldnt share government because of the obvious opposing views. im not gonna get into this, just research if your interested

Maybe the nice people at the polling stations helped them to decide who to vote for. They didn't have election monitors then. You might agree that in the Europe of today, things are done a little differently to the way they were done 70 odd years ago.

kryogen

conspiracy forum is around here somewhere Ejmaztec.......

arybvtcw0eolkf

Whatever doubts I had when I cast my NO vote (and I had some doubts) - I have absolutely no doubts now what-so-ever, I made the right choice.

In fact this week I've found myself turned decidedly anti-EU.

ejmaztec

kryogen wrote: »

conspiracy forum is around here somewhere Ejmaztec.......

Is there a thread for people who think that the EU is out to get them?:D

javaboy

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Democracy = People vote and make the decisions.

Dictatorship = Leaders make rules and the people do not have the oppertunity to vote.

Lisbon = Dictatorship.

Lisbon is serious stuff and should have been put to the floor in every country in the EU.

So what system of government do you want?

There are two extremes.

1) The entire population votes on every single decision.
2) An unelected small group of people make all the decisions.

Most sensible countries go with a compromise where a group of people are elected every few years and those people represent the larger population. When a decision needs to be made, the small group of elected people act like a mini-population by voting. Some decisions cannot legally be made by this elected group and so there must be a referendum.

Some countries go with strategy number 2 which is usually a bad road to go down.

I don't know of any country that uses strategy number 1. It would be a logistical nightmare except maybe in the Vatican state or the principality of Monaco.

Run_to_da_hills

javaboy wrote: »

So what system of government do you want?

Voting for a Euro superstate is a big descision for any country to make.

McSandwich

UB wrote: »

There's a a Nazi type fascist regime? Is that the same one that allows me to travel unimpeded

Unless you happen to be from one of the new member states...

See David McWilliams' article on this: http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2008/06/18/look-what-we-have-done-for-ordinary-europeans

turgon

Anyone else ever feel the urge to hit Kathy Sinnot?

BTW, I dont regret voting NO, the response of some EU leaders has only increased my fear of the hypothetical EU elitism.