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Defence against headbutt?

  • 07-06-2008 06:35PM
    #1
    April Raine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 363 ✭✭


    I put this at
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=56169401#post56169401
    but that thread is 4 years old so am placing here. In the above thread there was amention of headbuting and that there is no defence for this.All I wanted to say/ask is that in kung fu we were taught to defend a headbutt by turning down head so he would headbutt the top of your head. Opinions welcome


«1

Comments

  • #2
    RedRaven
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 966 ✭✭✭RedRaven


    Elbows Thai style!!:D


  • #3
    john kavanagh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭john kavanagh


    if do right, no can defend


  • #4
    Baggio...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,085 ✭✭✭Baggio...


    April Raine wrote: »
    turning down head so he would headbutt the top of your head. Opinions welcome

    Old street fighters trick also....

    Another obvious tactic would be to adopt a "fence" position. Thus negating any head butt attempt.


  • #5
    April Raine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 363 ✭✭April Raine


    Baggio... wrote: »
    would be to adopt a "fence" position. Thus negating any head butt attempt.
    can you explain fence?


  • #6
    SV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,533 ✭✭✭SV


    Turning the head down is the only real "defense"..

    Just take it..


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  • #7
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 1,078 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Headbutts are unstoppable. There's a reason they're banned in almost all combat sports.


  • #8
    April Raine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 363 ✭✭April Raine


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Headbutts are unstoppable. There's a reason they're banned in almost all combat sports.
    Just to clarify I am talking about self defence in a street attack rather than sport


  • #9
    RedRaven
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 966 ✭✭✭RedRaven


    Dont let anybody invade your personel space so close as to land a head butt on you.


  • #10
    Baggio...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,085 ✭✭✭Baggio...


    April Raine wrote: »
    can you explain fence?

    "The fence" was a term first coined by Geoff Thompson back in the early nineties. It is the bedrock of his self-protection concept, and most other modern self-protection material (or a very important part anyway).

    The fence has three main functions. There are more, but I'll just keep it brief for the moment:

    1) To protect and control personal space (situational control)
    2) To act as a sensory antenna (reading the intentions of the individual)
    3) To act as a range finder (which will give you accuracy)

    The fence is done by putting your hands up in an unobtrusive manner, so that it doest look like some kind of "Karate" or “Kung Fu” hand position. Some people refer to it as “talking with your hands”. It generally has to be “non-static” and look very natural. It basically keeps anyone at arms length. If they suddenly rushed you, for example. They would have to negotiate through your hands first. If you felt that someone was trying to push through your "fence", you would take immediate action.

    Thus, rendering a head butt virtually impossible.

    As Redraven said – don't let them get in close to you. So your fence is the best option to prevent them from doing so.

    If you read Geoff''s book “dead or alive” or check out his "Fence" DVD they go into a lot more detail.

    Hope it helps.


  • #11
    April Raine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 363 ✭✭April Raine


    Baggio... wrote: »
    "The fence" was a term first coined by Geoff Thompson back in the early nineties. It is the bedrock of his self-protection concept, and most other modern self-protection material (or a very important part anyway).

    The fence has three main functions. There are more, but I'll just keep it brief for the moment:

    1) To protect and control personal space (situational control)
    2) To act as a sensory antenna (reading the intentions of the individual)
    3) To act as a range finder (which will give you accuracy)

    The fence is done by putting your hands up in an unobtrusive manner, so that it doest look like some kind of "Karate" or “Kung Fu” hand position. Some people refer to it as “talking with your hands”. It generally has to be “non-static” and look very natural. It basically keeps anyone at arms length. If they suddenly rushed you, for example. They would have to negotiate through your hands first. If you felt that someone was trying to push through your "fence", you would take immediate action.

    Thus, rendering a head butt virtually impossible.

    As Redraven said – don't let them get in close to you. So your fence is the best option to prevent them from doing so.

    If you read Geoff''s book “dead or alive” or check out his "Fence" DVD they go into a lot more detail.
    Thanks for the explanation
    Hope it helps
    It does;)


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  • #12
    Martin25
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 346 ✭✭Martin25


    Put your hands up and keep him at bay.
    Eye gouge and rakes are an optional extra at this distance


  • #13
    Baggio...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,085 ✭✭✭Baggio...


    April Raine wrote: »
    Thanks for the explanation
    It does;)

    No worries.... any time.


  • #14
    RedRaven
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 966 ✭✭✭RedRaven


    As the guys said the hands up in front of you as in taking with your hands can be swiftly changed into an elbow or throat or eye strike.


  • #15
    Raze_them_all
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,477 ✭✭✭✭Raze_them_all


    I'd always slighlty lower my head and rub my chin at the same time so that way my hand could quickly move up to protect my face if i didn trust the person


  • #16
    April Raine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 363 ✭✭April Raine


    Raze_them_all wrote: »
    I'd always slighlty lower my head and rub my chin at the same time
    In a sort of fencey way?


  • #17
    Raze_them_all
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,477 ✭✭✭✭Raze_them_all


    April Raine wrote: »
    In a sort of fencey way?
    not to sure what u mean, More like a bad movie scientist thinking while stroking his beard...but looking down and not looking up laughing like a psycho


  • #18
    raah!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,629 ✭✭✭raah!


    I would think it would be better to defend from someone getting into that range rather than from an actual headbut. If your regular street knacker is at that distance you can just go for a judo/wrestling take down and they usually won't know what to do.


  • #19
    Baggio...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,085 ✭✭✭Baggio...


    raah! wrote: »
    I would think it would be better to defend from someone getting into that range rather than from an actual headbut.

    That's where the fence comes into it's own, for protecting space.


  • #20
    raah!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,629 ✭✭✭raah!


    Good show, from which martial art does this come from?


  • #21
    Raze_them_all
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,477 ✭✭✭✭Raze_them_all


    raah! wrote: »
    I would think it would be better to defend from someone getting into that range rather than from an actual headbut. If your regular street knacker is at that distance you can just go for a judo/wrestling take down and they usually won't know what to do.
    while I agree, In my experience it's not all the burberry wearing scum that know how to throw a head butt.... lets face it a headbutt is a sneak thing usually with no warning, and in a crowded pub it's quite easy to have your personal space invaded, we all know this


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  • #22
    raah!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,629 ✭✭✭raah!


    Well in my experience the headbutt always follow's the "squaring up" bull****. I mean you would notice them getting up that close, so usually there is some time to stop it.

    But yeah, for the most part you are never gonna be able to defend yourself from knacks without first getting some kinda smash in the face. I recently had my nose broken when a scum kneed me in the face as I was coming off of his friend....barely noticable though :)


  • #23
    April Raine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 363 ✭✭April Raine


    Raze_them_all wrote: »
    not to sure what u mean, More like a bad movie scientist thinking while stroking his beard...but looking down and not looking up laughing like a psycho
    by in a fency way i meant that
    I'd always slighlty lower my head and rub my chin at the same time so that way my hand could quickly move up to protect my face if i didn trust the person
    would be used as a fence too, oh yes it is obvious on re reading, sorry. Thanks guys for all the feedback


  • #24
    April Raine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 363 ✭✭April Raine


    raah! wrote: »
    But yeah, for the most part you are never gonna be able to defend yourself from knacks without first getting some kinda smash in the face. :)
    No offence but that seems a bit pessimistic, hope you are not too hurt


  • #25
    Baggio...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,085 ✭✭✭Baggio...


    April Raine wrote: »
    In a sort of fencey way?

    I think Raze is talking about something like this:

    http://www.themartialist.com/images/jackbennystance.jpg

    It's often referred to as the "Jack Benny" position. Named after the famous comedian.
    It's also used by Door staff, I've heard it called the “Bouncer's” position also.

    The main concept is to basically have your hands higher than his, therefore making it easier to react if you have to. Although being proactive is always better than being reactive (“action beats reaction”, etc).

    I personally prefer “a fence” type - because it's keeps them at a longer range.


  • #26
    Baggio...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,085 ✭✭✭Baggio...


    raah! wrote: »
    Good show, from which martial art does this come from?

    Not a martial art per se, but more of a personal security concept. it's been around for quite a while now.

    The term "fence" was coined by G.T., as I was saying. He basically made it a standard in self-protection circles (well, virtually everybody adopted after they saw it in application) .

    But I've read material about the French Police using it way back in the 1800's while tackling the "Apache" (French street gangs). I'm sure it's been used before that too. :) To be fair to Geoff though, he did take the concept further than anyone else (back in the ninties anyway).


  • #27
    Perfect fit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 609 ✭✭✭Perfect fit


    hit him first!!


  • #28
    Raze_them_all
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,477 ✭✭✭✭Raze_them_all


    Baggio... wrote: »
    I think Raze is talking about something like this:

    http://www.themartialist.com/images/jackbennystance.jpg

    It's often referred to as the "Jack Benny" position. Named after the famous comedian.
    It's also used by Door staff, I've heard it called the “Bouncer's” position also.

    The main concept is to basically have your hands higher than his, therefore making it easier to react if you have to. Although being proactive is always better than being reactive (“action beats reaction”, etc).

    I personally prefer “a fence” type - because it's keeps them at a longer range.
    ha ha yeah istarted using it when i was working on doors cos you've to get to close to, too many people


  • #29
    April Raine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 363 ✭✭April Raine


    What do you guys think of 1.54 of this http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=UDKM4HrYQ_s

    Would that be an effective fence/move in a possible headbutt scenario?

    Thanks


  • #30
    Baggio...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,085 ✭✭✭Baggio...


    April Raine wrote: »
    What do you guys think of 1.54 of this http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=UDKM4HrYQ_s

    Would that be an effective fence/move in a possible headbutt scenario?

    Hey April,

    That Wing Chung clip is very far removed from the Fence concept to be honest – it involves way to much fine motor skill, and looks like a fighting stance, thus giving the game away. He's making it work in the Dojo with very compliant students. I'd say it would be a very different story if he was facing opponents with real intent.

    However, I did find this, from the man himself. :) GT explain it better than I ever could.

    http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=T6OJnZG3joA

    Cheers,

    Rob.


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  • #31
    April Raine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 363 ✭✭April Raine


    Baggio... wrote: »
    Hey April,

    That Wing Chung clip is very far removed from the Fence concept to be honest – it involves way to much fine motor skill, and looks like a fighting stance, thus giving the game away. He's making it work in the Dojo with very compliant students. I'd say it would be a very different story if he was facing opponents with real intent.

    However, I did find this, from the man himself. :) GT explain it better than I ever could.

    http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=T6OJnZG3joA

    Cheers,

    Rob.
    Thanks for that though I have seen that clip, very good was thinking of buying the book as the dvd is 24.99 stg


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