Defence against headbutt?

April Raine

I put this at
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=56169401#post56169401
but that thread is 4 years old so am placing here. In the above thread there was amention of headbuting and that there is no defence for this.All I wanted to say/ask is that in kung fu we were taught to defend a headbutt by turning down head so he would headbutt the top of your head. Opinions welcome

RedRaven

Elbows Thai style!!:D

john kavanagh

if do right, no can defend

Baggio...

April Raine wrote: »

turning down head so he would headbutt the top of your head. Opinions welcome

Old street fighters trick also....

Another obvious tactic would be to adopt a "fence" position. Thus negating any head butt attempt.

April Raine

Baggio... wrote: »

would be to adopt a "fence" position. Thus negating any head butt attempt.

can you explain fence?

SV

Turning the head down is the only real "defense"..

Just take it..

Headbutts are unstoppable. There's a reason they're banned in almost all combat sports.

April Raine

Deleted User wrote: »

Headbutts are unstoppable. There's a reason they're banned in almost all combat sports.

Just to clarify I am talking about self defence in a street attack rather than sport

RedRaven

Dont let anybody invade your personel space so close as to land a head butt on you.

Baggio...

April Raine wrote: »

can you explain fence?

"The fence" was a term first coined by Geoff Thompson back in the early nineties. It is the bedrock of his self-protection concept, and most other modern self-protection material (or a very important part anyway).

The fence has three main functions. There are more, but I'll just keep it brief for the moment:

1) To protect and control personal space (situational control)
2) To act as a sensory antenna (reading the intentions of the individual)
3) To act as a range finder (which will give you accuracy)

The fence is done by putting your hands up in an unobtrusive manner, so that it doest look like some kind of "Karate" or “Kung Fu” hand position. Some people refer to it as “talking with your hands”. It generally has to be “non-static” and look very natural. It basically keeps anyone at arms length. If they suddenly rushed you, for example. They would have to negotiate through your hands first. If you felt that someone was trying to push through your "fence", you would take immediate action.

Thus, rendering a head butt virtually impossible.

As Redraven said – don't let them get in close to you. So your fence is the best option to prevent them from doing so.

If you read Geoff''s book “dead or alive” or check out his "Fence" DVD they go into a lot more detail.

Hope it helps.

April Raine

Baggio... wrote: »

"The fence" was a term first coined by Geoff Thompson back in the early nineties. It is the bedrock of his self-protection concept, and most other modern self-protection material (or a very important part anyway).

The fence has three main functions. There are more, but I'll just keep it brief for the moment:

1) To protect and control personal space (situational control)
2) To act as a sensory antenna (reading the intentions of the individual)
3) To act as a range finder (which will give you accuracy)

The fence is done by putting your hands up in an unobtrusive manner, so that it doest look like some kind of "Karate" or “Kung Fu” hand position. Some people refer to it as “talking with your hands”. It generally has to be “non-static” and look very natural. It basically keeps anyone at arms length. If they suddenly rushed you, for example. They would have to negotiate through your hands first. If you felt that someone was trying to push through your "fence", you would take immediate action.

Thus, rendering a head butt virtually impossible.

As Redraven said – don't let them get in close to you. So your fence is the best option to prevent them from doing so.

If you read Geoff''s book “dead or alive” or check out his "Fence" DVD they go into a lot more detail.

Thanks for the explanation

Hope it helps

It does;)

Martin25

Put your hands up and keep him at bay.
Eye gouge and rakes are an optional extra at this distance

Baggio...

April Raine wrote: »

Thanks for the explanation
It does;)

No worries.... any time.

RedRaven

As the guys said the hands up in front of you as in taking with your hands can be swiftly changed into an elbow or throat or eye strike.

Raze_them_all

I'd always slighlty lower my head and rub my chin at the same time so that way my hand could quickly move up to protect my face if i didn trust the person

April Raine

Raze_them_all wrote: »

I'd always slighlty lower my head and rub my chin at the same time

In a sort of fencey way?

Raze_them_all

April Raine wrote: »

In a sort of fencey way?

not to sure what u mean, More like a bad movie scientist thinking while stroking his beard...but looking down and not looking up laughing like a psycho

raah!

I would think it would be better to defend from someone getting into that range rather than from an actual headbut. If your regular street knacker is at that distance you can just go for a judo/wrestling take down and they usually won't know what to do.

Baggio...

raah! wrote: »

I would think it would be better to defend from someone getting into that range rather than from an actual headbut.

That's where the fence comes into it's own, for protecting space.

raah!

Good show, from which martial art does this come from?

Raze_them_all

raah! wrote: »

I would think it would be better to defend from someone getting into that range rather than from an actual headbut. If your regular street knacker is at that distance you can just go for a judo/wrestling take down and they usually won't know what to do.

while I agree, In my experience it's not all the burberry wearing scum that know how to throw a head butt.... lets face it a headbutt is a sneak thing usually with no warning, and in a crowded pub it's quite easy to have your personal space invaded, we all know this

raah!

Well in my experience the headbutt always follow's the "squaring up" bull****. I mean you would notice them getting up that close, so usually there is some time to stop it.

But yeah, for the most part you are never gonna be able to defend yourself from knacks without first getting some kinda smash in the face. I recently had my nose broken when a scum kneed me in the face as I was coming off of his friend....barely noticable though

April Raine

Raze_them_all wrote: »

not to sure what u mean, More like a bad movie scientist thinking while stroking his beard...but looking down and not looking up laughing like a psycho

by in a fency way i meant that

I'd always slighlty lower my head and rub my chin at the same time so that way my hand could quickly move up to protect my face if i didn trust the person

would be used as a fence too, oh yes it is obvious on re reading, sorry. Thanks guys for all the feedback

April Raine

raah! wrote: »

But yeah, for the most part you are never gonna be able to defend yourself from knacks without first getting some kinda smash in the face.

No offence but that seems a bit pessimistic, hope you are not too hurt

Baggio...

April Raine wrote: »

In a sort of fencey way?

I think Raze is talking about something like this:

http://www.themartialist.com/images/jackbennystance.jpg

It's often referred to as the "Jack Benny" position. Named after the famous comedian.
It's also used by Door staff, I've heard it called the “Bouncer's” position also.

The main concept is to basically have your hands higher than his, therefore making it easier to react if you have to. Although being proactive is always better than being reactive (“action beats reaction”, etc).

I personally prefer “a fence” type - because it's keeps them at a longer range.

Baggio...

raah! wrote: »

Good show, from which martial art does this come from?

Not a martial art per se, but more of a personal security concept. it's been around for quite a while now.

The term "fence" was coined by G.T., as I was saying. He basically made it a standard in self-protection circles (well, virtually everybody adopted after they saw it in application) .

But I've read material about the French Police using it way back in the 1800's while tackling the "Apache" (French street gangs). I'm sure it's been used before that too. To be fair to Geoff though, he did take the concept further than anyone else (back in the ninties anyway).

Perfect fit

hit him first!!

Raze_them_all

Baggio... wrote: »

I think Raze is talking about something like this:

http://www.themartialist.com/images/jackbennystance.jpg

It's often referred to as the "Jack Benny" position. Named after the famous comedian.
It's also used by Door staff, I've heard it called the “Bouncer's” position also.

The main concept is to basically have your hands higher than his, therefore making it easier to react if you have to. Although being proactive is always better than being reactive (“action beats reaction”, etc).

I personally prefer “a fence” type - because it's keeps them at a longer range.

ha ha yeah istarted using it when i was working on doors cos you've to get to close to, too many people

April Raine

What do you guys think of 1.54 of this http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=UDKM4HrYQ_s

Would that be an effective fence/move in a possible headbutt scenario?

Thanks

Baggio...

April Raine wrote: »

What do you guys think of 1.54 of this http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=UDKM4HrYQ_s

Would that be an effective fence/move in a possible headbutt scenario?

Hey April,

That Wing Chung clip is very far removed from the Fence concept to be honest – it involves way to much fine motor skill, and looks like a fighting stance, thus giving the game away. He's making it work in the Dojo with very compliant students. I'd say it would be a very different story if he was facing opponents with real intent.

However, I did find this, from the man himself. GT explain it better than I ever could.

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=T6OJnZG3joA

Cheers,

Rob.

April Raine

Baggio... wrote: »

Hey April,

That Wing Chung clip is very far removed from the Fence concept to be honest – it involves way to much fine motor skill, and looks like a fighting stance, thus giving the game away. He's making it work in the Dojo with very compliant students. I'd say it would be a very different story if he was facing opponents with real intent.

However, I did find this, from the man himself. GT explain it better than I ever could.

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=T6OJnZG3joA

Cheers,

Rob.

Thanks for that though I have seen that clip, very good was thinking of buying the book as the dvd is 24.99 stg

Baggio...

April Raine wrote: »

Thanks for that though I have seen that clip, very good was thinking of buying the book as the dvd is 24.99 stg

You can't go wrong with any of his stuff it's all excellent! - although, I'm not mad on his grappling stuff to be honest. His "three second fighter" DVD is still one of the best I've seen for realistic self-protection.

However, there are guys out there now who've taken the fence, and personal security concepts even further (I guess you could say times have changed a bit) . So you might be better off buying a DVD which will not only cover the fence but some more concepts as well. Something that would give you all the basics in a nutshell.

Cheers,

R.

Martin25

Geoff Thompson has the fence down to a fine art.
1.Don't be there in the first place.
2. Get out of the situation, escape.
3. Have a good fence and talk your way out,back off
4. Keep it at long range,finger jab
5. Palm smashing
6.Forearm smashing
7. Elbow smashing
8. grappling of the non sporting type
9 Get an equaliser,put something between you and the attacker

Baggio...

Martin25 wrote: »

Geoff Thompson has the fence down to a fine art.
1.Don't be there in the first place.
2. Get out of the situation, escape.
3. Have a good fence and talk your way out,back off
4. Keep it at long range,finger jab
5. Palm smashing
6.Forearm smashing
7. Elbow smashing
8. grappling of the non sporting type
9 Get an equaliser,put something between you and the attacker

That's about the size of it!:)

There's another couple of guys definitely worth checking out too. I'm obviously going to say Lee Morrison as I have the privilege of training with him. But Southnarc's “Practical Unarmed Combat” DVD is excellent and covers a lot of the “situation control” stuff (IE, - unknown contact management). He's had lot of real experience, as he was an undercover narcotics cop, basically dealing with the guys directly on the street – scary stuff.

The RMCAT stuff I good also, especially for people who are just starting to train.

April Raine

Baggio... wrote: »

However, there are guys out there now who've taken the fence, and personal security concepts even further

such as ?

So you might be better off buying a DVD which will not only cover the fence but some more concepts as well.

suggestion? i am especially interested in psychological techniques to talking out of it

Baggio...

April Raine wrote: »

such as ?

The two guys that I mentioned are really excellent.
Lee Morrison of “Urban Combatives”. Lee's "fight back" DVD would give you a really good grounding of the basics (including the fence and psychological aspects) it's also four DVD set!. He's ranked as one of the top "combtives" guys around (and I'm not just saying that 'cause he my instructor):).
WWW.Urbancombatives.com

Southnarc he's an American Instructor - he's got some great material too. Well worth checking out.www.shivworks.com

If your interested in the de-escalation and the psychology side of things, I'd highly recommend Richard Demitri of Senshido. His stuff is great! He was one of Tony Blauer's students. I posted one of his clips here a few days ago - the knife seminar in Scandinavia. He does some great stuff for women's self-protection also.
www.senshido.com

Heres a few clips i found:

Here's one of Lee's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVdQuvZdyyM

Southnarc's (can only find his knife stuff)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEgXk29TV0M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xt8706J-aY

April Raine

Southnarc he's an American Instructor - he's got some great material too. Well worth checking out.www.shivworks.com

Thanks for the link, I couldn't find it:o

If your interested in the de-escalation and the psychology side of things,

I am

I'd highly recommend Richard Demitri of Senshido.

I will check his site

Heres a few clips i found:

Here's one of Lee's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVdQuvZdyyM

Southnarc's (can only find his knife stuff)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEgXk29TV0M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xt8706J-aY

Baggio...

If I find any other decent stuff I'll keep you posted.

Raze_them_all

i've got the the ultimate defence against it.....can't believe no1 thought of this :P

Baggio...

Hah.... class!:D

April Raine

Raze_them_all wrote: »

i've got the the ultimate defence against it.....can't believe no1 thought of this :P

or change race

Baggio...

Very cool... I want one now, where can i get a boney forehead??:D

yomchi

Hey April, if you're interested in the field of reality based training we're bringing Lee Morrison over in September 21st for a day long course on counter knife scenarios.

singloud

isnt there an african martial art focusing on headbutting?

Martin25

Not African, its based in Lurgan and its called "Headbanging"

Martin25

Jon
Please keep me posted on your seminar with Lee as I would like to attend if possible.
Martin

Baggio...

Jon wrote: »

Hey April, if you're interested in the field of reality based training we're bringing Lee Morrison over in September 21st for a day long course on counter knife scenarios.

I'd highly recommend this course for anyone who's interested in Counter Knife work, it's by far the best I've ever seen. There will also be a shedload of the "soft skills" included - understanding the threat, avoidance, etc.

Conchubhair

easiest defences to a headbut:
~put your hand in the way of their head
~finger in the eye
~or if they are holding your arms down...knees to stomach + family jewells

April Raine

Baggio... wrote: »

I'd highly recommend this course for anyone who's interested in Counter Knife work, it's by far the best I've ever seen. There will also be a shedload of the "soft skills" included - understanding the threat, avoidance, etc.

How much will this course cost and where will it be?

stevemc01

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3K-mrlYG7Y&NR=1

Cant believe noone has mentioned this. You can get the Bas Rutten Self Defence DVD online, you will learn some handy moves plus probably wet yourself laughing.

Baggio...

April Raine wrote: »

How much will this course cost and where will it be?

Sorry, I meant to reply to this.:o

Details are here:
http://www.ucireland.com/

It cost's a hundred euro, and it will be at KO martial art centre - Glasnevin.

Jon Mackey is organizing it - jon@ucireland.com

Hope it helps,

R.