I want criminal sentences in Ireland increased and more rights for victims, How?

Latchy · 02-06-2008 10:21PM

I think we have to also remember when people say ' but prison doesnt work ' , ok but if some guy gets several years for serious assault, 15 years for several rapes or longer for murder , if they are locked up and out of the way the victims and the public in general wont have to worry about them on the outside.It becomes the inside of a jail problem and yes , the buck has to stop with sombody ie, the prison gaurds ,rules and regulations .

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 02-06-2008 10:51PM

latchyco wrote: »

I think we have to also remember when people say ' but prison doesnt work ' , ok but if some guy gets several years for serious assault, 15 years for several rapes or longer for murder , if they are locked up and out of the way the victims and the public in general wont have to worry about them on the outside.It becomes the inside of a jail problem and yes , the buck has to stop with sombody ie, the prison gaurds ,rules and regulations .

Depends on what you see the goal of prison to be. If it's keep them off the streets or inflict misery, then yes - it does it's job.

The problem is when Mr Rapist gets out in 15 years. Then the public DOES have to worry about him.

vote4pedro · 02-06-2008 11:51PM

I couldn't bring myself to read more than the first page as it was so full of rubbish another 4 pages would have been too much

...please tell me someone has since pointed out that if you want to decrease crime you need to imprison less people?!

Latchy · 02-06-2008 11:55PM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Depends on what you see the goal of prison to be. If it's keep them off the streets or inflict misery, then yes - it does it's job.

The problem is when Mr Rapist gets out in 15 years. Then the public DOES have to worry about him.

Exactly , now if life for murder mentt life then those guys will die in jail and we wont have to worry (unless they escape ) about them

vote4pedro wrote: »

I couldn't bring myself to read more than the first page as it was so full of rubbish another 4 pages would have been too much

...please tell me someone has since pointed out that if you want to decrease crime you need to imprison less people?!

Ok ,so what is the alternitive ,were all intrested .

johnnyskeleton · 03-06-2008 12:04AM

Why do you want to see increased sentences, and what specific rights do you want for victims?

vote4pedro · 03-06-2008 12:05AM

Ok ,so what is the alternitive ,were all intrested .

In a nutshell the answer is to shift our penal policy away from imprisoning people most of you would refer to as scumbags, for petty crimes which would carry a sentence of 6 weeks or so. I'd imagine they are the type of crimes that most people here think should be prosecuted more often to "sort them out once and for all".
We should generally try to avoid using prison wherever it is possible to do so, divert people away from the system wherever it is possible to do so, and if it is necessary, we should change how we imprison those people as the "throw away the key" approach will just create more crime and social problems.

I'm able to support all that with reports, journals, figures, reports, crime statistics, examples from around the world, penal reports.....but sure it's far easier to read the Sun's crime correspondent talk about the OUT OF CONTROL problem, and go by anecdotal evidence of what happened to yer man's down the road's oul wan.

sturgo · 03-06-2008 12:10AM

Personally, I think victims have too many rights.

Latchy · 03-06-2008 12:13AM

Victims are the forgotten ,the offenders become the celebs .It's cool to be a crim as is portrayed in thousends of film's books and what have ya .

Ian huntley for example is now ' mr huntley ' and is to be treated with kids gloves ,and the ripper (yorkshire not jack ) wants to appeal his sentence .

Appeal ? ....fkucker should be dangling from a lamp post .

vote4pedro · 03-06-2008 12:19AM

Yeah that'd stop others from becoming psychotic murderers, great thinking.

johnnyskeleton · 03-06-2008 12:21AM

latchyco wrote: »

Victims are the forgotten ,the offenders become the celebs .It's cool to be a crim as is portrayed in thousends of film's books and what have ya .

That's a societal issue and has nothing to do with victims rights. You can remember victims if you want to, and you can refuse to watch the films and books that portray criminals as cool.

latchyco wrote:

Ian huntley for example is now ' mr huntley ' and is to be treated with kids gloves ,and the ripper (yorkshire not jack ) wants to appeal his sentence .

Appeal ? ....fkucker should be dangling from a lamp post .

He's entitled to an appeal, as were the guilford 4, birmingham 6, frank shortt etc...

Latchy · 03-06-2008 12:28AM

vote4pedro wrote: »

Yeah that'd stop others from becoming psychotic murderers, great thinking.

Nothing will stop phycotic murders from being psycotic murderers

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

That's a societal issue and has nothing to do with victims rights. You can remember victims if you want to, and you can refuse to watch the films and books that portray criminals as cool.

Wow , i suppose i should stop reading newspapers and watching the evening news to ,yeah :rolleyes:

He's entitled to an appeal, as were the guilford 4, birmingham 6, frank shortt etc...

Yeah , my heart bleeds for him poor thing .You a fan of his ?

vote4pedro · 03-06-2008 12:36AM

Haha, so if you propose anything other than a fire and brimstone approach (such as an educated approach) you joke that someone must be a fan of a murderer.

What's that saying...empty vessels make the most noise?

Latchy · 03-06-2008 12:42AM

Well ok , so i may seem like the hang em and flog em brigade in my posts but i am wanting to know why the education systen and rehbilitation scheme for criminals you talk about , why has it not being implemented years ago .?

ps - i still detest peter ripper and his kind anyway

vote4pedro · 03-06-2008 12:49AM

Well I was actually saying that we should divert people from prison and avoid using it wherever possible, as well as rehabilative programmes. The reason they've not been implemented years ago is because people are idiots. Seriously. We have our penal policy dictated by hyperbolic , sensationalist rubbish and there'd be outrage if a government looked at actually reducing the amount of people imprisoned as the press would hound the Minister from office. Instead we follow ridiculous Zero Tolerance approaches from the likes of Ministers of Justice such as O'Donoghue and McDowell, and then wonder why the problem doesn't go away.

For what its worth Canada, parts of America, Finland, Germany and other countries did go through with such programmes, ignoring simplistic popular sentiment in a bid to actually reduce crime, and it was hugely succesfull. Finland in 30 years went from having one of the highest crime rates in the 70s/80s to one of the lowest in the EU today.
But try advocating a 20 year policy that will actually effect change next time there's a single crime that makes the front page of the tabloids, whilst they then bay for blood.

johnnyskeleton · 03-06-2008 12:52AM

latchyco wrote: »

Nothing will stop phycotic murders from being psycotic murderers

Exactly, in the sense that it is very difficult to deter murderers by imposing harsh sentences on those already convicted of murder. However, things can be done before the murders are committed e.g. better state psychiatric aid, more government money spent tackling social problems etc.

latchyco wrote: »

Wow , i suppose i should stop reading newspapers and watching the evening news to ,yeah :rolleyes:

If you like, yes. Earlier you were bemoaning the way that criminals are portrayed in popular culture, and when I point out that you don't have to patronise this popular culture if you don't like it, you react with sarcasm.

latchyco wrote: »

Yeah , my heart bleeds for him poor thing .You a fan of his ?

I don't know why your heart bleeds for him, nor do I understand why you are saying that in response to what I have said, as I in no way suggested that you should feel sympathy for him.

I don't really know much about him, but I am a fan of justice and fair procedures. I don't know why some people believe that denying someone fair proceedures will somehow reduce the crime rate or somehow make the world a better place.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 03-06-2008 12:57AM

vote4pedro wrote: »

I couldn't bring myself to read more than the first page as it was so full of rubbish another 4 pages would have been too much

...please tell me someone has since pointed out that if you want to decrease crime you need to imprison less people?!

Yes, repeatedly. Sadly, it didn't work.

latchyco wrote: »

Exactly , now if life for murder mentt life then those guys will die in jail and we wont have to worry (unless they escape ) about them

Ok ,so what is the alternitive ,were all intrested .

Prevention seems to be better than cure. Why wait until thy're pissed off and disenfranchised (or whatever the word is) to act?

latchyco wrote: »

Victims are the forgotten ,the offenders become the celebs .It's cool to be a crim as is portrayed in thousends of film's books and what have ya .

Ian huntley for example is now ' mr huntley ' and is to be treated with kids gloves ,and the ripper (yorkshire not jack ) wants to appeal his sentence .

Appeal ? ....fkucker should be dangling from a lamp post .

Exactly where are you getting you information about Huntley from? And as far as I know, he's not getting out any time soon anyway.

latchyco wrote: »

Nothing will stop phycotic murders from being psycotic murderers

Wow , i suppose i should stop reading newspapers and watching the evening news to ,yeah :rolleyes:

Yeah , my heart bleeds for him poor thing .You a fan of his ?

Proof about the "psychotic murders" statement, please? Also, proof please, that Hunley and Sutcliffe were clinically "psychotic"? Psychotic people tend not to be suicidal, by definition.

What newspapers do you read, out of interest? I'm guessing tabloids and sky "news".

latchyco wrote: »

Well ok , so i may seem like the hang em and flog em brigade in my posts but i am wanting to know why the education systen and rehbilitation scheme for criminals you talk about , why has it not being implemented years ago .?

ps - i still detest peter ripper and his kind anyway

It hasn't been implementend because it takes a bit more effort than slinging soeone in jail and asssuming that'll sort them out. And because it's a liberal idea that a conservative society wouldn't even consider. Hence the risign crime levels. Let me know how that works out for you...

Latchy · 03-06-2008 01:00AM

That's fair enough and you make some intresting points .I have always being of the opinion that we all are capable of commiting crimes simply cuz we have the free will and capabilities to do so (leaving aside all the claims such as poverty education etc for commiting crime ) I just shudder as we all do when horific crimes are commited and you ask yourself time and time again ' how can sombody do such a thing ' ?

intresting thread and more to be discussed i'm sure

goodnight

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 03-06-2008 01:08AM

latchyco wrote: »

That's fair enough and you make some intresting points .I have always being of the opinion that we all are capable of commiting crimes simply cuz we have the free will and capabilities to do so (leaving aside all the claims such as poverty education etc for commiting crime ) I just shudder as we all do when horific crimes are commited and you ask yourself time and time again ' how can sombody do such a thing ' ?

intresting thread and more to be discussed i'm sure

goodnight

Technicall, yes, we have the ability it's the actual choices that people make that lead to crimes. In a 'civilised' society you want to deter people from making bad choices in the first place, preferably when young. We do very little to achieve this.

The 'psychotic' crime is a different thing. Psychotic, AFAIK, means unable to feel emotion or act rationally, which is why they do what they do without even batting an eyelid. Huntley's not psychotic (a suicide attempt requires emotion, usually dispair). Not sure about Sutcliffe.

Latchy · 03-06-2008 01:20AM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

What newspapers do you read, out of interest? I'm guessing tabloids and sky "news".
QUOTE]

.Millions read tabloids and watch sky news as well as CNN but they watch it (like you i am sure ) for it's trashy news content eh ?

but i respect this post was was before your last reply to me

(actually i dont buy tabloids and i dont watch sky news although i am guilty like thousends of others of reading the daily express online ..tightwad )

(I also read the irish independent online to )

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 03-06-2008 01:46AM

latchyco wrote: »

.Millions read tabloids and watch sky news as well as CNN but they watch it (like you i am sure ) for it's trashy news content eh ?

but i respect this post was was before your last reply to me

(actually i dont buy tabloids and i dont watch sky news although i am guilty like thousends of others of reading the daily express online ..tightwad )

(I also read the irish independent online to )

I tend to stick to BBC, RTE and Euronews (more diversity in the latter).

kowloon · 03-06-2008 11:18AM

Roundtower2 wrote: »

But, is that really the case? What are the statistics on the matter? ... actually they say that the number of assaults and other serious crimes is now a bit lower than 1995, even though the population has increased by quite a lot. http://www.cso.ie/statistics/headline_offences.htm

+1 I have only witnessed or heard (directly as opposed to media) of a handful of muggings and assaults in years. I heard of more 10 years ago than today.

justcallmetex · 03-06-2008 11:39AM

We should build big camps and anybody who steps out of line should be sent there and they could be forced to work all day as slave labour (pay back for claiming the dole) and when they're done we could make them dig a big hole line em all up then put a soft lead bullet in the back of their head sending the bill to their parents (lets face it it's their fault anyway and I see no reason why my taxes should pay for the bullet!) And then we can all live happily ever after!

BUT society don't work like that dose it? I guess I'll just have to live my life as best I can and take the rough with the smooth and if the Laws an ass and wont treat people I don't like with utter contempt then thats the way it is.

Stompbox · 03-06-2008 12:00PM

micmclo wrote: »

25% :eek:
Got a link for that as there is no way it's even a fraction of that. Sure how could it be, 25% of all children abused? No way!

Or maybe I just have a sheltered life....

Are you sure its not 25% of those who are being molested? Not of the entire population.

Hitchhiker's Guide to... · 03-06-2008 12:12PM

micmclo wrote: »

25% :eek:
Got a link for that as there is no way it's even a fraction of that. Sure how could it be, 25% of all children abused? No way!

Or maybe I just have a sheltered life....

scary thought if you are from a family of four kids

the stat couldn't be right

Latchy · 03-06-2008 01:47PM

Behind all those statistics are real victims of real crimes

How many people reading this now were victims of a crime weather it be a physical assault ,sexual assault ,robbery etc ? How did you feel over the next few days and weeks ? Was the person caught, brought to court found guilty ? Did they recieve a satisfactory sentence ? How many crimes go unreported cuz the person was so traumatised and frightened by the expierence and somehow felt the justice system would fail them ?

What about an eye for an eye ?

( Long story short I was the victim of a serious unprovoked attack in London 5 years ago .The guy (high on a cocktail of drink and drugs ) was caught with some of my blood from a nose bleed on his clothes and they took a dna sample from him .He didnt deny it ,so allowing for a easier sentence he was just giving a warning .)

Revenge, justice ? I would have liked 5 minutes to do onto him what he did to me but i dont even remember what he looks like and he could walk past me today without me knowing it

At least if life ment life and the death penalty was re introduced for serious crimes like murder then it acts as a deterrent of sorts and each case is dealth with on it's merits .The medical profession decide if they are schizo / phycotic and worthy of being incarcerated for the rest of their lifes .If the high profile criminals like brady and huntley were whisked away in the middle of the night to some far flung hell hole, apart from the ' tabloids ' and the do gooders nobody else would really notice or care ,out of sight out of mind .

You take a life you forfit your own might be the best deterent of all .

Ikky poo2 - i also watch bbc ,itv news as well as channel 4 and 5 news

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 03-06-2008 02:06PM

latchyco wrote: »

Behind all those statistics are real victims of real crimes

How many people reading this now were victims of a crime weather it be a physical assault ,sexual assault ,robbery etc ? How did you feel over the next few days and weeks ? Was the person caught, brought to court found guilty ? Did they recieve a satisfactory sentence ? How many crimes go unreported cuz the person was so traumatised and frightened by the expierence and somehow felt the justice system would fail them ?

What about an eye for an eye ?

( Long story short I was the victim of a serious unprovoked attack in London 5 years ago .The guy (high on a cocktail of drink and drugs ) was caught with some of my blood from a nose bleed on his clothes and they took a dna sample from him .He didnt deny it ,so allowing for a easier sentence he was just giving a warning .)

Revenge, justice ? I would have liked 5 minutes to do onto him what he did to me but i dont even remember what he looks like and he could walk past me today without me knowing it

At least if life ment life and the death penalty was re introduced for serious crimes like murder then it acts as a deterrent of sorts and each case is dealth with on it's merits .The medical profession decide if they are schizo / phycotic and worthy of being incarcerated for the rest of their lifes .If the high profile criminals like brady and huntley were whisked away in the middle of the night to some far flung hell hole, apart from the ' tabloids ' and the do gooders nobody else would really notice or care ,out of sight out of mind .

You take a life you forfit your own might be the best deterent of all .

Ikky poo2 - i also watch bbc ,itv news as well as channel 4 and 5 news

An eye for an eye, as Ghandi famously said just leaves us all blind.

While I thank God that I have never been a victim (and hopefully never will, touch wood), the problem is that the victim wants revenge. He/she doesn't care if the criminal gets out in 5/10 years and repeats the offence. If they did, they'd come up with PRACTICAL ways of prevention.

There is a reason why law courts are established to deal with FACTS and NOT emotions.

Latchy · 03-06-2008 02:15PM

Law courts deal with facts indeed but to put it mildly ,somtimes the facts become hazy and lets our offender of lightly .However remember ,revenge is a cold dish doled out behind closed doors .What about criminals beating up other prisoners in jail ? .Is that not also a crime or is it justice ? It has to one or the other ?

Also for every person in jail who is remorcefull for their crime their are hundreds more just waitng to do the time so they can go back out and do it all again so in that respect yes jail doesnt work .

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 03-06-2008 02:22PM

latchyco wrote: »

Law courts deal with facts indeed but to put it mildly ,somtimes the facts become hazy and lets our offender of lightly .However remember ,revenge is a cold dish doled out behind closed doors .What about criminals beating up other prisoners in jail ? .Is that not also a crime or is it justice ? It has to one or the other ?

Also for every person in jail who is remorcefull for their crime their are hundreds more just waitng to do the time so they can go back out and do it all again so in that respect yes jail doesnt work .

If anyone is attacked unprovoked it's a crime. Doesn;t matter if it happens in jail. Jail, be it rightly or wrongly, has a duty to protect.

You only need to look at the reoffending rates and attitudes of the prisoners to know that jail doesn't work. If anything it encourages crime. But whatcha gonna do about it? (Not you personally, you 'generally')

Latchy · 03-06-2008 04:49PM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

If anyone is attacked unprovoked it's a crime. Doesn;t matter if it happens in jail. Jail, be it rightly or wrongly, has a duty to protect.

Seems to be an accepted part of society that what we dont know wont harm us ,specialy were getting beaten up in prison by another prisoner is concerned .We dont have a perfect jail system

You only need to look at the reoffending rates and attitudes of the prisoners to know that jail doesn't work. If anything it encourages crime. But whatcha gonna do about it? (Not you personally, you 'generally')

As people keep saying ,there has to be a severe deterrent.The idea of going back to the late19th /early 20th century style jail system ,were prisoners were up at the crack of dawn to break rocks while eating gruel and sleeping in damp cold cells may not be the way to go ,but i can believe it when once you lived under those condidtions for a few years ,you were more determined not to go back .

So ok , there has to be a 21rst century deterent to make the criminal change his way .If it's to be done through education then so be it .

vote4pedro · 03-06-2008 05:41PM

latchyco wrote: »

At least if life ment life and the death penalty was re introduced for serious crimes like murder then it acts as a deterrent of sorts and each case is dealth with on it's merits .

All research suggests that the death penalty does not act as a deterrent

The idea of going back to the late19th /early 20th century style jail system ,were prisoners were up at the crack of dawn to break rocks while eating gruel and sleeping in damp cold cells may not be the way to go ,but i can believe it when once you lived under those condidtions for a few years ,you were more determined not to go back .

Fact of the matter is that it simply dehumanised people, perpetuating a life of crime and a more ruthless society. Few were not determined not to go back, most were so removed from society because of their incarceration that they were left with no alternate options than a life of crime.

I want criminal sentences in Ireland increased and more rights for victims, How?

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