Surfing Maps Stay - No further discussion on this

paudie · 30-05-2008 10:02AM

Ok I've only just found out about this thread and the problems associated with it.

I just want to say that I think it's bloody stupid to have that map up there, the arguments that I read about informing people are an absolute no go for me. If someone is stupid enough to go into a spot without checking it first they deserve whatever happens to them.

As I'm sure has been pointed out numerous times not all the spots are that well publicised and there are rules about naming or exposing secret/semi-secret spots.

I think the fact that you left the map up is extrememly childish and shows an immense lack of maturity. It seems that some of the mods got insulted and decided to "pay the surfers back" by leaving the map up.

I really do think that this shows that whoever is in charge of the map has no real idea about surfing at all, so I don't see why they should have power like this.

pvt.joker · 30-05-2008 10:05AM

paudie wrote: »

there are rules about naming or exposing secret/semi-secret spots.

Rules?? Set by who? You have no right over and above any citizen of this country to be in the water.

Who enforces these "rules"

Times have changed, the maps stay, deal with it.

justsomebloke · 30-05-2008 10:10AM

paudie wrote: »

there are rules about naming or exposing secret/semi-secret spots.

can you please provide a link to these rules

seamus · 30-05-2008 10:12AM

paudie wrote: »

I just want to say that I think it's bloody stupid to have that map up there, the arguments that I read about informing people are an absolute no go for me. If someone is stupid enough to go into a spot without checking it first they deserve whatever happens to them.

Nice to see how open you are to helping newcomers to your sport.

As I'm sure has been pointed out numerous times not all the spots are that well publicised and there are rules about naming or exposing secret/semi-secret spots.

No, there are "wink-wink" arrangements in place between some members of snobby cliques. There are no "rules" about anything which can be applied in this case.

It seems that some of the mods got insulted and decided to "pay the surfers back" by leaving the map up.

In fact, the two guys responsible for arranging the map, aren't moderators.

6th · 30-05-2008 10:16AM

seamus wrote: »

In fact, the two guys responsible for arranging the map, aren't moderators.

They should be made mods now though!

humanji · 30-05-2008 10:18AM

paudie wrote: »

I just want to say that I think it's bloody stupid to have that map up there, the arguments that I read about informing people are an absolute no go for me. If someone is stupid enough to go into a spot without checking it first they deserve whatever happens to them.

How are people supposed to get info on a sopt then if you don't let any information get out? That's just incredible dangerous and short sighted.

paudie wrote: »

As I'm sure has been pointed out numerous times not all the spots are that well publicised and there are rules about naming or exposing secret/semi-secret spots.

If you want to keep spots to yourself, then be careful who you tell. Simple as that. If someone else finds the spot, then tough. If they tell others, then tough.

paudie wrote: »

I think the fact that you left the map up is extrememly childish and shows an immense lack of maturity. It seems that some of the mods got insulted and decided to "pay the surfers back" by leaving the map up.

Actually it was a case of not changing the fundemental point of Boards existance to suit a minority. The minority then started acting the b*llox and so it seems that the mods are just being petty in order to get them back.

Beruthiel · 30-05-2008 10:20AM

paudie wrote: »

It seems that some of the mods got insulted and decided to "pay the surfers back" by leaving the map up.

Insulted is not the word that comes to mind. Try outraged at the fact that surfers came on to our site and threatened the Mod of that forum.
They also put his personal details up on this site. If you come in here and think you can act like that, this is the result of that type of scumbag behaviour.

there are rules about naming or exposing secret/semi-secret spots.

Rules? Are they in the Constitution?

Ste05 · 30-05-2008 10:20AM

roofrack wrote: »

I would just like to add one comment about the map, because when I browsed through some of the coments I read that one of the main reasons to keep it up was for safety.

I would say the as far as my Local surfing beach is concerned this Map's detail is inaccurate. The map states for my local beach:
"Perfect shaped beach. Lots of NW/W swell reaches here. very quiet"
The author forgets to mention the big rip that runs straight throught the middle of the beach and has taken many lives. I have seen surfers and kyakers pull beginners out of the water every summer for the last 3 years.

I assume you PM'ed Rb or Boston with your proposed corrections? If there are more people like yourself who actually look at the map and hand over the information they have, it could save all these people having to be pulled out of the sea every summer. Morans will always be morans and there's nothing can be done about them, but people who are just inexperienced and badly informed could be prevented from getting into these situations if they had proper warnings.

EDIT: I'm also very interested in hearing where these "rules" come from. It must be a piece of Legislation that alot of us might have missed. As Beruthiel says, I don't remember reading about them in the Constitution. Maybe they're in the Lisbon Treaty??

Vikings · 30-05-2008 10:23AM

I'm inclined to agree with paudies comment above. This is from a neutral with no association with surfing whatsoever - can hardly swim as it is!

From reading this thread, and this thread alone, it is clear to me that the actions of some boards users here is not in the interest of safety of surfers.

I'm going to agree with DeV that a fully updated map of all the surfing spots in Ireland with ratings for the difficulty would be great for all surfers, not just novices but the way people are carrying on here is just down right childish.

First of all, the list/map is being compiled by 2 people who have no interest in surfing other than putting this map together - because of this they are relying on the sufing community themselves in order to help them with the creation of this map. Now, any member of the surfing community that has voiced an opinion on this matter has refused to help these 2 people in compiling this map - yet they still persist. Why? To get the better of the surfers who have came on here and threatened people? They have been banned, have they not? What else is there left to accomplish?

What percentage of the Irish Surfing community frequents boards.ie? And the feedback section of all places. How do you expect to compile a map of all the surfing spots in Ireland and assign appropriate difficulty levels from a handful of people from this thread - it can't be done.

What needs to be done here is that all the information gathered so far needs to be handed over to the surfing authority in Ireland (ISA?) and let them be in charge of it. They will have better resources to complete the map - and if it is to increase surfers safety that you are trying to accomplish by this then you should contact the ISA and make them aware of it and give them the information.

In my opinion though, this was started by a couple of people looking to get back at the surfers for their threats and to get a laugh out of it - which has been accomplished. I thought the first few pages of this thread were great - until it turned into a witch hunt.

Whatever about "rules" within the surfing community - if safety is everyone heres primary concern (which I doubt somewhat) then something like this should be undertaken by the ISA. Or better yet, forward this information to the Irish Sports Council and make them aware of the shortcomings of the ISA for not undertaking this project already - make them aware of the dangers as they are the ones who give grants to the ISA. Again, this is if safety is everyones main concern as they are making it out to be.

Gandalf23 · 30-05-2008 10:29AM

Vikings wrote: »

From reading this thread, and this thread alone, it is clear to me that the actions of some boards users here is not in the interest of safety of surfers.

I'm going to agree with DeV that a fully updated map of all the surfing spots in Ireland with ratings for the difficulty would be great for all surfers, not just novices but the way people are carrying on here is just down right childish.

First of all, the list/map is being compiled by 2 people who have no interest in surfing other than putting this map together - because of this they are relying on the sufing community themselves in order to help them with the creation of this map. Now, any member of the surfing community that has voiced an opinion on this matter has refused to help these 2 people in compiling this map - yet they still persist. Why? To get the better of the surfers who have came on here and threatened people? They have been banned, have they not? What else is there left to accomplish?

Whatever about "rules" within the surfing community - if safety is everyone heres primary concern (which I doubt somewhat) then something like this should be undertaken by the ISA. Or better yet, forward this information to the Irish Sports Council and make them aware of the shortcomings of the ISA for not undertaking this project already - make them aware of the dangers as they are the ones who give grants to the ISA. Again, this is if safety is everyones main concern as they are making it out to be.

Brilliant post ... I almost cheered a few times there!

The problem is that safety is not the main concern of the people behind the map. As you say, their primary concern at this stage is to "get the better of the surfers who have came on here and threatened people". I think they should admit that now.

RuggieBear · 30-05-2008 10:30AM

Ste05 wrote: »

Maybe they're in the Lisbon Treaty??

And who the **** has read that!?

Gordon · 30-05-2008 10:35AM

I'm not sure, but I dont think a comparison has been made yet between boards users that are surfing the net for fun and board users that are surfing over nets for fun. If this hasn't been pointed out already I would like to make this point. /waves to everyone

javaboy · 30-05-2008 10:37AM

Ste05 wrote: »

EDIT: I'm also very interested in hearing where these "rules" come from. It must be a piece of Legislation that alot of us might have missed. As Beruthiel says, I don't remember reading about them in the Constitution. Maybe they're in the Lisbon Treaty??

Quite the opposite as you'll notice if you read my sig. The Lisbon treaty will out all secret spots!

paudie · 30-05-2008 10:37AM

Ok I will replace "rules" with etiquette.

I have no problem with people coming into the sport, I'm actually a surf instructor, so I make money from people learning to surf, why would I want to stop that? I think that is the best way for people to learn about surfing, in a structured and supervised environment.

I know there is no point in trying to stop every surf map and guide that pops up, but the content of these should be moderated. The best way forward with this as far asI can tell is to indicate to people where the main surfing beachs and schools are and then let the surfing community dictate how the surfers progress.

Did I read correctly that the two guys making the map don't even surf?
Why would they want to bother putting the map together then?

javaboy · 30-05-2008 10:38AM

Gordon wrote: »

I'm not sure, but I dont think a comparison has been made yet between boards users that are surfing the net for fun and board users that are surfing over nets for fun. If this hasn't been pointed out already I would like to make this point. /waves to everyone

Yeah there were a few bad puns a while back on that theme.

Gordon · 30-05-2008 10:39AM

javaboy wrote: »

Yeah there were a few bad puns a while back on that theme.

Dam, too late..

Toto Wolfcastle · 30-05-2008 10:40AM

paudie wrote: »

Ok I will replace "rules" with etiquette.

I have no problem with people coming into the sport, I'm actually a surf instructor, so I make money from people learning to surf, why would I want to stop that? I think that is the best way for people to learn about surfing, in a structured and supervised environment.

I know there is no point in trying to stop every surf map and guide that pops up, but the content of these should be moderated. The best way forward with this as far asI can tell is to indicate to people where the main surfing beachs and schools are and then let the surfing community dictate how the surfers progress.

Did I read correctly that the two guys making the map don't even surf?
Why would they want to bother putting the map together then?

They didn't make the map, they copied and pasted from a surfer's map.

Stark · 30-05-2008 10:43AM

paudie wrote: »

O
I know there is no point in trying to stop every surf map and guide that pops up, but the content of these should be moderated. The best way forward with this as far asI can tell is to indicate to people where the main surfing beachs and schools are and then let the surfing community dictate how the surfers progress.

Letting the surfing community dictate how someone progresses sounds like a clique popularity contest, where the "newbies" have to suck up to the locals enough in order to progress. Since this information is going to get out regardless of your ego and possessiveness, the best thing you could do would be to contribute to the information pool and provide gradings for the beaches so people know which beaches are suitable for beginners and which beaches are only suitable for more advanced surfers. Like when you go skiing and the slopes are divided into green, blue, red and black slopes.

humanji · 30-05-2008 10:44AM

Gandalf23 wrote: »

Brilliant post ... I almost cheered a few times there!

The problem is that safety is not the main concern of the people behind the map. As you say, their primary concern at this stage is to "get the better of the surfers who have came on here and threatened people". I think they should admit that now.

Safety is also not the main concern of many of those demanding the map be removed.

stevenmu · 30-05-2008 10:45AM

I for one don't buy this safety argument. I am starting a paragliding course, and have done a tiny amount of hanggliding, so I have been keeping in touch with the community and I have a good insight into how safety matters are handled.

First of all, I believe there is a strong parrallel between the safety issue in surfing and paragliding/hanggliding, particularly in relation to the issues being mentioned here. Both can be quite safe if done with due care and consideration, but quite dangerous if not. Both have areas where the sport can be done which are only suitable for use by more experienced participants, and areas where the suitability can depend on the local conditions at the time.

The way the paragliding/hangliding community deals with this is twofold. Firstly it is indoctrinated into all pilots to seek detailed information about any site before attempting to fly it from local or other knowledgeable pilots. Information such as the site's suitability level, the conditions required to fly it, how the local conditions tend to behave, and how different conditions at the site can create dangers. Secondly, pilots are encouraged to share information about existing sites, including any relevant recommendations and warnings. Pilots who may know of particular sites in areas but are not familiar enough to issue such advice will name the site and also pass along contact details of others who are in a better position to advise.

The result of this method is that I know that before ever setting foot on a slope to check with local knowledgeable pilots who can pass on any relevant information to me. I also know of several sites which are popular but are only suitable for experienced pilots, these are sites that I could easily have stumbled upon, seen people people flying from, and attempted to fly myself only to find myself in severe trouble.

Personally I believe the only way to handle any sport (or any other activity) where severe danger can result from a lack of information, is to be as open and forthcoming with that information as possible. And there's no better tool to do that than the internet.

pvt.joker · 30-05-2008 10:49AM

google searching "surfing maps" and clicking "pages from ireland"

results, the first 4 links are to boards.ie publicising the maps.

Congratulations surfers, your threats have now resulted in this information being available to a far far wider audience than you were origninally complaining about.

Matt Holck · 30-05-2008 10:52AM

paudie wrote: »

Ok I will replace "rules" with etiquette.

I have no problem with people coming into the sport, I'm actually a surf instructor, so I make money from people learning to surf, why would I want to stop that? I think that is the best way for people to learn about surfing, in a structured and supervised environment.

I know there is no point in trying to stop every surf map and guide that pops up, but the content of these should be moderated. The best way forward with this as far as I can tell is to indicate to people where the main surfing beaches and schools are and then let the surfing community dictate how the surfers progress.

Did I read correctly that the two guys making the map don't even surf?
Why would they want to bother putting the map together then?

I think moderated sites would be more attractive to those serious about surfing

badolepuddytat · 30-05-2008 10:53AM

To put the 'Waaah, our secret surf spots will get overcrowded if more people know about them, btw, anyone seen my soother?' argrument into perspective,lets take a look at Chile which has 6,435 km of coastline, obviously not all surfable, Ireland has 5631 km, also not all surfable. Chile has a population of 16 million odd people, Ireland has just over 4*.

Point being that Ireland has a relatively small population and a lot of good surfing spots, we're lucky as it is, get over yourselves if you think you have the right to exclusivity over some of them. Yes, it's nice to find somewhere quiet but it's not your right to keep it unknown. You just need manners and safety consciousness in the water if it is busy, keep an eye out, wait your turn, maybe even welcome the newbies, is it that hard

Sorry if someone has made the point already, read the first few pages. Posting someones personal details is awful, there are some 'cliques' around the country, as someone said either blow-ins who through the grace of having a few more years experience in the water think their gods gift or locals who don't like 'dem townies/culchies/foreigners' coming onto 'their territory. Mainly sound people though, and although I know people who've gotten stick from these plebs, most people are pretty cool and I've only experienced this once. It's annoying that they do give all surfers a bad rep though, gits.

* disclaimer * I'm not a geography nerd, I just used google and feel free to quible with my stats, I'm making a general point about Ireland

stevenmu · 30-05-2008 10:55AM

paudie wrote: »

If someone is stupid enough to go into a spot without checking it first they deserve whatever happens to them.

And how exactly is someone supposed to check a spot if it's secret. They obviously can't check online, if they post about it they'll just be threatened and told to shut the f**k up.

Mr Magnolia · 30-05-2008 10:57AM

Vikings wrote: »

Now, any member of the surfing community that has voiced an opinion on this matter has refused to help these 2 people in compiling this map - yet they still persist. Why? To get the better of the surfers who have came on here and threatened people? They have been banned, have they not? What else is there left to accomplish?

Ok, they were banned from an internet forum. They crossed the line from the interweb into RL when they posted threats and personal contact information

What percentage of the Irish Surfing community frequents boards.ie? And the feedback section of all places. How do you expect to compile a map of all the surfing spots in Ireland and assign appropriate difficulty levels from a handful of people from this thread - it can't be done.

I'd say we can expect plenty of visitors after this episode. It's up to them whether they won't to donate their local knowledge.

paudie wrote: »

I know there is no point in trying to stop every surf map and guide that pops up, but the content of these should be moderated..

Oh, the ironing... the forum that contained this info was (is) moderated until the moderator was threatened and walked away.

Did I read correctly that the two guys making the map don't even surf?
Why would they want to bother putting the map together then?

Because one of our own was threatened. For every action...

bubonicus · 30-05-2008 10:58AM

roofrack · 30-05-2008 10:58AM

Roofrack... Which do you think is better?

A fully expanded map with all the local info and a difficulty index.

or

No map.

As with everything in life, all is not black and white. A compromise between the two I would say, I think a map for beginners is indeed a good idea, a map that ousts secret spots, probably a bad idea, a map for experienced surfers? probably dont need a map when you get to that level.

Morf3h · 30-05-2008 10:59AM

Gandalf23 wrote: »

Vikings wrote:

Quote:

From reading this thread, and this thread alone, it is clear to me that the actions of some boards users here is not in the interest of safety of surfers.

I'm going to agree with DeV that a fully updated map of all the surfing spots in Ireland with ratings for the difficulty would be great for all surfers, not just novices but the way people are carrying on here is just down right childish.

First of all, the list/map is being compiled by 2 people who have no interest in surfing other than putting this map together - because of this they are relying on the sufing community themselves in order to help them with the creation of this map. Now, any member of the surfing community that has voiced an opinion on this matter has refused to help these 2 people in compiling this map - yet they still persist. Why? To get the better of the surfers who have came on here and threatened people? They have been banned, have they not? What else is there left to accomplish?

Whatever about "rules" within the surfing community - if safety is everyone heres primary concern (which I doubt somewhat) then something like this should be undertaken by the ISA. Or better yet, forward this information to the Irish Sports Council and make them aware of the shortcomings of the ISA for not undertaking this project already - make them aware of the dangers as they are the ones who give grants to the ISA. Again, this is if safety is everyones main concern as they are making it out to be.

Brilliant post ... I almost cheered a few times there!

The problem is that safety is not the main concern of the people behind the map. As you say, their primary concern at this stage is to "get the better of the surfers who have came on here and threatened people". I think they should admit that now.

Hi Guys,

Long time surfer here, not so much in Ireland but that's irrelevant here.

Firstly, the guys who attacked Fuzzy are w@nkers. Please try to ignore them, and try to appreciate that the world is full of assh0les and that will never change.

Secondly, I really hope that you take Viking and Gandalf's posts (as well as the numerous other serious and sincere ones from other people in this thread and elsewhere) into consideration regarding the map. The ISA is there for a reason and if anyone should be trying to construct an educational/informative map of the Surfing spots in Ireland, shouldn't it be them? At least that way they can be held accountable for the information they provide.

In nearly every facet of life, be it from your favourite restaurant, favourite path to walk every evening, favourite beach or in this case, favourite place to surf, everyone likes to have some sort of belonging to something. Some place/thing to call their own. While it is a fact of life that you can't hold secrets for ever, it is in human nature to hold something dear to them.

Think of it this way: You have a lovely Italian restaurant down the road where you go regularly. The owner knows you name and you see the same people in there from time to time and it's doing a great business. You think of it as "your little secret". After a while word gets out about the restaurant, random tourists start crowding it looses it's sense of uniqueness. This sounds awfully cheesy but I'm sure you can get my point. The same thing is happening here regarding the surfers.

If the ISA thinks certain beaches are too dangerous, let them inform the general public and beginner surfers in general, for they are the governing body.

I implore the boards.ie team to please be the bigger person in this altercation and pass all previously obtained information to the ISA for further consideration.

Lastly, although i cannot in anyway speak for the entire Irish surfing community, I would like to apologize for the way Fuzzylogic was treated, and hope that boards.ie can help encourage the growth of surfing in Ireland.

30-05-2008 11:01AM

Stark wrote: »

Letting the surfing community dictate how someone progresses sounds like a clique popularity contest, where the "newbies" have to suck up to the locals enough in order to progress. Since this information is going to get out regardless of your ego and possessiveness, the best thing you could do would be to contribute to the information pool and provide gradings for the beaches so people know which beaches are suitable for beginners and which beaches are only suitable for more advanced surfers. Like when you go skiing and the slopes are divided into green, blue, red and black slopes.

That would need the surfers in question not to be selfish and clicky.
That would be as is becoming obvious to us all a big ask.

BlitzKrieg · 30-05-2008 11:02AM

the crux of the argument is changing to a more sensible one.

Its not that the spots should be secret or kept of the map, but that the map should have surfers keeping it up to date and ensuring its accurate.

Now to be honest, the vast mahjority here will applaud this and will be more then happy to help or step back and leave it to surfers.

BUT

Initial response was not that it should be surfers keeping surfers informed, in fact seeing as the map originated on the surfers forum by surfers, the initial reaction was *waa* take those spots of the map, I dont care if you surf there too it shouldnt be made public!

Now that its come to feedback and because of the headbanging between groups, there is an element of distrust over the map. And people who have no link to surfing have become involved, mostly because there is a air of pigheadiness around that needs to be seriously cleared.

Rb doesnt own a monopoly on google maps, you can make your own copy and put it the warnings, or you can wwork with him, this is the bloody internet, information is free flowing, sometimes it innacurate but unless your not willing to correct it, then it wont be fixed.

Surfing Maps Stay - No further discussion on this

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