I want criminal sentences in Ireland increased and more rights for victims, How?

Deputy Dog · 24-05-2008 01:50AM #1

I am absolutely fed up of the justice system in this country, everyday crime is getting worse and worse with little or no satisfaction for innocent hardworking victims. Im fed up of the government trying to write off car crime as petty crime, i and many others dont regard our expensive assets being joyridden and burned out, as petty, i actually find it very insulting to suggest so.

Also, i want to see the act of a person kicking another person in the head as attempted murder, assuming the person was lucky enough to survive. Serious assaults are treated in a disgusting manner in Ireland. Doctors will back this up, i know many who say that people are ending up in vegtable like states after random attacks and the crime is just written off as petty assaults whereas if there had been 1 extra kick the victim would be dead and the guards would be looking for a murder. When a person is left in a coma the criminals should be looking at hefty sentences. People are afraid to go on nights out due to all this assaults.

Also, the whole charade of scumbags with multilpe convictions often well into double figures and even hitting close to 100 sometimes are still amongst society causing pain and anguish.

Another failure and joke of the so called justice system is the fact that serious (not petty) criminals are allowed to roam the streets and organise intimidation of victims and witnesses. A person awaiting trial for leaving someone in a coma should not be allowed out.

Another thing i want to see sorted out is the intimidation of victims in Ireland. It is so easy for scumbags to be allowed intimidate victims that complain about them, people are afraid to complain now due to this.

I honestly believe the justice system needs a serious overhaul in this country. I also genuinely feel that the scumbags are beginning to win, they have no fear of consequences, cause they're are none for joyriding/house burgulary, serious assault, etc... All these common crimes need way more tougher sentencing.

This is an issue that Ive had some interest in for a good while now and want to try and get things changed. What can I do, or what do the people of this country have to do to get tougher sentences for crimes committed against them, get involved in politics to try change things, organise mass protests, whats the best way to get the government to take action upon what the majority of the country wants to see. I want to feel relatively safe in my country and also want to be reassured that if a "serious" petty crime is committed against me that the offender is put away for a "serious" amount of time. Why should a hard-working honest person go to work, when scumbags who dont/wont work rob the workers house when at work, joyride his car, then burn his car and then violently assault him at the weekend when he's out for an innocent drink, and these scumbags are getting off absolutely scot free.

More jails are just going to have to be built for taking these dangers/risks to society in general, off of the streets. I dont blame the guards, they generally catch a lot of these scumbags but the court system keep handing down humiliating sentences for the victims and the jails arent big enough to accommodate them. So, i blame the government for not developing more jails and hence restricting sentences to little more than trvial revolving door set-ups.

Feel free to discuss the above and if anyone has any tips how I can get involved in improving the justice for victims and getting criminals put away for longer please tell me, as Im seriously thinking of doing something about this when I finish college.

armour87 · 24-05-2008 01:51AM

Ask your sheriff nicely

Neamhshuntasach · 24-05-2008 01:55AM

Well i'm all for wiping out people who are a hindrence to society.

Kill them all and let God sort them out.

Holsten · 24-05-2008 02:00AM

Great post, and I 100% agree.

Violent street crime and lack of any real punishment would be number one on my list if I was ever to get in power.

Sherifu · 24-05-2008 02:06AM

armour87 wrote: »

Ask your sheriff nicely

This calls for Baws Niggah.

ART6 · 24-05-2008 08:33AM

I suspect that much of the problem is human rights legislation, where it is deemed that a criminal has such rights and so must be treated gently by the law. So I'd guess it's likely that if one who beats another up to steal his mobile phone is sentenced to (say) 20 years in the nick, it would be classed as a "cruel and unusual" punishment. So, perhaps, the first step is to campaign for a change in the law to the effect that anyone who deliberately and calculatingly sets out to harm or injure another or steal his property is deemed to have forfieted his human rights.

He can then be taken outside and flogged senseless:D

Caoimhín · 24-05-2008 08:35AM

Trains heading east, then showers.

mikemac · 24-05-2008 08:48AM

Deputy Dog wrote: »

i know many who say that people are ending up in vegtable like states after random attacks and the crime is just written off as petty assaults whereas if there had been 1 extra kick the victim would be dead and the guards would be looking for a murder

You'll never get a murder conviction for that! Manslaughter at best.

Dunno what you can do. Michael McDowell was a well respected lawyer and remains one of the top barristers in the country.
Many people taught he would bring in sweeping and radical changes but in the end, not much changed and the electorate rejected him.

The people have spoken, more of the same please

gogglebok · 24-05-2008 09:02AM

Deputy Dog wrote: »

Feel free to discuss the above and if anyone has any tips how I can get involved in improving the justice for victims and getting criminals put away for longer please tell me, as Im seriously thinking of doing something about this when I finish college.

Fair play to you for wanting to get involved. It seems like politics or joining the Gardai would be obvious possibilities.

But if you want to be taken seriously in any arena, you need to get some facts together. By what measure is crime getting worse? Worse than when? What are our average sentences for specific offences, and how do they compare to other jurisdictions? How have the differences in those jurisdictions affected their crime figures?

You need to be providing this stuff if you want to distinguish yourself from the ranting heart-attacks-in-waiting who have decried modern standards of everything since time we first loped out of the caves. However admirable the quality of your anger, there is not a single concrete example of anything in your post. That doesn't help to make your case. It will just get you agreement from the people who already agree with you.

To have any chance of changing things politically, I would say there are four key factors:

1. Do the research.
2. Identify solutions as well as problems.
3. Cost the solutions.
4. Present the whole package calmly and forcefully.

A big task, and I wish you luck.

ImDave · 24-05-2008 09:47AM

Great post, your dead right.

luckat · 24-05-2008 09:51AM

Fine idea, except that jail doesn't stop people committing crimes.

Collie D · 24-05-2008 10:04AM

At the next election vote for anyone but FF - might be a start

wyndham · 24-05-2008 10:17AM

Collie D wrote: »

At the next election vote for anyone but FF - might be a start

Yeah Sinn Fein :rolleyes:

jos28 · 24-05-2008 10:21AM

Great topic and well presented for someone so young. We have never had a government that was serious about crime and that is where the problem lies. As one of the earlier posters said, we expected great things from McDowell but that did not happen. We need a really strong tough and unrelenting Minister for Justice who would oversee a complete overhaul of the sentencing system. I personally would like to see :

The end of reduced sentencing
Victims rights before criminals rights
Accountability for judges, they have to be answerable to someone. If a criminal on bail or early release commits a further crime, then the person who released him/her should be held accountable.
The end of time off for good behaviour-time should be added on for bad behaviour
No more temporary release for prisoners

.
Fair play to you for raising the issue.

Tigger · 24-05-2008 10:40AM

vigilantisim for the win

seriously tho seeing as the stoners wasters and general scumbag population are still asleep i'll give you some iof my ideas

1. you can work you do work; if you want welfare payments then you work for them unless you can't , idle hands and all that.
2. blame the parents; petty criome caused by kids teaches the little chits that they will get away with stuff so if they act up then fine the parents
3. propper community service 60 hours a week 6 days a week with night curfew and drink/ drug testing for the duration
4.arm the gaurds mabey put them in black uniforms if they are armed but arm the feckers not the traffic corp etc but the gaurds need to be guiven the tools to tackle modern situations
5. if all else fails jail and propper ; hard labour no treats

the current system does not work and the whole thing is gonna colapse around us

bman · 24-05-2008 11:04AM

luckat wrote: »

Fine idea, except that jail doesn't stop people committing crimes.

Do we really care? As long as they're locked up in jail they can't commit crime against the general public.

It'll be interesting to see if anyone comes on to this thread saying that the current system is fine. I believe the OPs opinion is one that is held by the majority of the people in this country. The majority of the people against changing the system are probably the scumbags themselves. Surprising that if so many people think this way that something hasn't been done about it.

ART6 · 24-05-2008 11:46AM

Stiffer sentencing and harsher punishments? Yes. There has to be a response to the present system where criminals of all ages just get a slapped wrist. But in many Middle and Far Eastern countries the punishments are much more severe than ours -- hands cut off for stealing, flogging for littering, etc etc, and they still have crime. Personally I think the solution is in the long haul, starting by teaching children that they must respect authority and must behave themselves or face the consequences. Make it plain to them that they haven't yet earned adult rights, and put tape over the mouths of the bleeding heart liberals who will squeal and wet themselves at the thought. Make it very plain to parents, and apply it rigidly, that if their kids misbehave they will be held accountable and WILL be punished firmly. Make the age of adult responsibility 16 years, with the parents responsible until then. If they complain that they can't control their kids, take the kids away from them. Raising children is the most important thing anyone will ever do, so we should expect their best endeavours all the time.

That way maybe eventually people will start to raise kids who become responsible adults and don't think it's fun to kick someone's head in just because they feel like it.

Reason why I feel like this? Some years ago I was driving a company truck through Waterford. Two young girls, I'd guess about 13 years old and in school uniforms, deliberately stepped off the pavement right in front of me, laughing as I was forced to brake hard. I leaned out of the window and shouted "Are you trying to get yourselves killed?" One of them raised a digit at me and shouted "Ah f**k off, c**t." I imagine that they will have turned out to be very responsible adults, but responsible for what?

d_tobin1 · 24-05-2008 11:46AM

I agree with the majority of what was said by the OP. But we need to put the criminal system in a realistis frame here. Ireland has one of the lowest crime rates in the world, and although the level of crime is increasing as a whole the level of serious assaults and murders has actually been decreasing.

In Ireland today the reporting of crime and criminal acts has developed a very sesationalist media report. Everyday we read on the front of 'The Sun', 'Star', etc that some lajor crime took place, or how some criminal has commited some crime. This sort of reporting also is taking place in the broadsheets aswell. The reporting of the recent scandals in the latest tribunal also has been given serious news coverage. All of this undermines the justice system as I see it as it develops a perception in peoples minds that crime is rife among us and that we live in a dangerous society.

Nothing of course could be further from the truth. Murders in this country usually take the form of crimes of passion between family members, the ones unrelated to family matters are as a result of feuding among rival gangs which only takes place in certain areas of the country.

As for petty crime increasing I believe this is a result of the increase in wealth among the general population. In the past petty crime was less due to the fact that people had less valuable personal belongings which would be worth robbing for criminals. Also the lavel of house burgaleries has dropped in recent years due to less lessening in value of items which are capable of being stolen. For instance it is not worth the risk for a criminal to break into a house to steal a dvd player and a few dvd's because of the low sell on value of these items.

The increase in illegal activity in this country though has been on the increase. The classification of this should be limited to the sale and supply of banned or illegal goods. The increase in the sale of these goods can be attributed to the low cost of acquiring these goods and the small criminal convictions faced when prosecuted for possession or sale of these goods.

The only way to stop this sort of crime is to refuse to purchase the goods off those who attempt to supply them. This of course is a large problem to overcome. The country is awash with people who claim to be completely against crime but still purchase cocaine or knockoff dvd's. This has to be stopped if we are to remove this type of criminal, only by stopping demand for this type of good can we hope to stop the supply of these goods.

Sorry about the length but I think its impotant that people realise that we don't live in as criminal a society as is made out, and that the justice system is attempting to do its best but its rather the average citizen who can do the most to stop the petty crime being complained about.

ART6 · 24-05-2008 11:54AM

d_tobin1 wrote: »

Murders in this country usually take the form of crimes of passion between family members, the ones unrelated to family matters are as a result of feuding among rival gangs which only takes place in certain areas of the country.

While I agree with a lot of what you say, and certainly it's true that the media do tend to make banner headlines out of things that would not have reached the public notice years ago, I am not sure about the murder rate. Limerick and Dublin seem to be determined to copy the US Wild West, and so I would ask (I genuinely don't know -- not trying to be clever) how many murders in (say) the last 5 years have been gang and criminal related as against murders of family members etc?

24-05-2008 11:54AM

This post has been deleted.

d_tobin1 · 24-05-2008 12:07PM

While I agree with a lot of what you say, and certainly it's true that the media do tend to make banner headlines out of things that would not have reached the public notice years ago, I am not sure about the murder rate. Limerick and Dublin seem to be determined to copy the US Wild West, and so I would ask (I genuinely don't know -- not trying to be clever) how many murders in (say) the last 5 years have been gang and criminal related as against murders of family members etc?

Hi art,

I'm not saying that murders have been only gang or family realted I just recognise that the majority of murders are associated with these.

Read this article :

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2007/09/30/story26998.asp

In the first six years of the new century, 64 people were fatally shot in incidents which could be described as gangland-related.

The vast majority -just under 75 per cent -of gangland killings occurred in the Dublin area. A further 5 per cent were Dubliners who were kidnapped and taken to locations peripheral to the capital prior to their execution-style murders.

I do agree with what you say about parts of Dublin and Limerick becoming almost Wild-West but Dublin is also the capital with almost half the population living in Dublin or its sourrounding counties. This of course leads to a higher incident of crime. The murders in Limerick are related to the Ryan family feud which has torn the city apart.

The average homicide rate in EU states is 3 per 100,000, according to the UN Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems. The homicide rate in Ireland is approximately 1.4 per 100,000.

'Ol Jack Chance · 24-05-2008 12:52PM

wont somebody think of the children!!!!

source · 24-05-2008 03:18PM

The problem is that the judges are completely out of touch with what is going on on the streets, The government, bring in mandatory minimum sentences and the judges refuse to implement them and decide to give say drug dealers 2 to 5 years when the minimum sentence is 10 years.

Get rid of the out of touch judges and make prison a more unpleasant place that'll sort the problem

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 24-05-2008 03:31PM

Interesting rant OP - are you sure you're not a FG TD in disguise...?

Now here's the problem: Jail. Does. Not Work.

Doesn't matter how long the sentence is, the reoffending rate will always be high. The rule of fear doesn't work because these guys are not scared to lose everything.

Don't get me wrong, jail is fine if all you're looking for a is a quick-fix emotional-reaction solution and a bit of instant revenge, which is what I sometimes believe we want in this country.

Also, where you gonna put all these jails? Building more prisons means more money diverted away from health, education, infrastructure where it's needed. Which means your taxes go up. Which means Deputydog and the rest of the redneck Texas Republicans will be back here moaning again even more vehemnetly.

AARRRGH · 24-05-2008 03:50PM

The current system certainly isn't working.

Take for example, child abuse. Under our current system, at least 25% of people (personally I think it's a lot higher than that) will continue to get molested and raped by family members. This is totally unacceptable.

Whether more jail or more education/whatever is the solution, I don't know.

If I had to pick something, I would start with compulsory parenting classes, and compulsory therapy sessions a few times per year. Somewhere people can talk openly and honestly about their issues.

I would also introduce some kind of anonymous phoneline which potential abusers/rapists can ring to discuss their (I'm hoping) unwanted, confusing urges.

Something I've often thought - do you ever notice scumbags are uneducated? Does this mean we're all naturally scumbags but it gets educated out of us, or is it just a coincidence?

I dunno.

mikemac · 24-05-2008 03:54PM

dublindude wrote: »

Take for example, child abuse. Under our current system, at least 25% of people (personally I think it's a lot higher than that) will continue to get molested and raped by family members. This is totally unacceptable.

25% :eek:
Got a link for that as there is no way it's even a fraction of that. Sure how could it be, 25% of all children abused? No way!

Or maybe I just have a sheltered life....

Caoimhín · 24-05-2008 03:55PM

dublindude wrote: »

Take for example, child abuse. Under our current system, at least 25% of people (personally I think it's a lot higher than that) will continue to get molested and raped by family members. This is totally unacceptable.

I dunno.

Do you mean 25% of the total population has been abused? Thats an extraordinary figure.

AARRRGH · 24-05-2008 04:00PM

micmclo wrote: »

25% :eek:
Got a link for that as there is no way it's even a fraction of that. Sure how could it be, 25% of all children abused? No way!

Or maybe I just have a sheltered life....

Well the organisation "one in four" say it's one in four.

I know this is only my own experience, but out of all the girls I've known well (~50), a lot more than 25% of them have been abused. I really think the problem is a lot bigger than we think.

...

Caoimhín · 24-05-2008 04:09PM

dublindude wrote: »

Well the organisation "one in four" say it's one in four.

I know this is only my own experience, but out of all the girls I've known well (~50), a lot more than 25% of them have been abused. I really think the problem is a lot bigger than we think.

...

Ah, all credit to 1 in 4 but i dont think the figure is really that high, jeysus that would indicate that......
na its not worth thinking about.

AARRRGH · 24-05-2008 04:20PM

caoibhin wrote: »

Ah, all credit to 1 in 4 but i dont think the figure is really that high, jeysus that would indicate that......
na its not worth thinking about.

Honestly, I think it's higher.

Depressing...

armour87 · 24-05-2008 04:45PM

Sherifu wrote: »

This calls for Baws Niggah.

Brilliant!

Reminded me of Pryor and Blazzin Saddles

I want criminal sentences in Ireland increased and more rights for victims, How?

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