MMA Seminar

john kavanagh · 02-05-2008 11:44AM

silat liam wrote: »

Otherwise the message it giving young kids joining the sport

the message we give kids in our mma training is

keep yourself in shape - healthy body, healthy mind
eat right...for the most part
avoid chemicals that'll have a negative impact on your health
lose the ego...training in combat athletics will do that for you as you are constantly being reminded how much you need to improve in all ranges by drilling with resistance or sparring

liam all sports which have an element of physical endurance and has mucho $$$ involved are dogged by steroids.....swimming, cycling, baseball....it doesnt matter. to believe otherwise would be naive. however to keep kids away from sports because of this would certainly be throwing the baby out with bathwater...or whatever that saying is

cletus · 02-05-2008 11:47AM

@silat liam: i don't think anybody is suggesting that you cannot train in mma without taking steroids, the discussion is really revolving around the use of steroids at the highest level in the sport. this conversation could just as easily be applied to almost any other sport at its highest level, such as track and filed events, swimming, cycling, etc etc. However, i don't think anybody would suggest that children do not run, swim, or cycle due to this

EDIT: John Kavanagh got there aead of me

Tim_Murphy · 02-05-2008 11:57AM

David Jones wrote: »

My original comment was vitamin s? :rolleyes:

Speculation using a question mark, not labelling, ie I have my suspicions which Im entitled to.

Fair enough.

Are you seriously telling me that Sherks physique is down to the 40 or so vitamins and herbal stuff he takes plus some organic vegetable shopping which was filmed on inside the UFC? C'mon.

No, I was simply stating the results of a recent drugs test. I doubt many people were that surprised when Sherk tested positive the first time.

Testing proceedures often find what they want or are told to find.

If you say so. Again using this logic it’s impossible to falsify anything. Nobody can prove thems innocent.

Tim_Murphy · 02-05-2008 12:04PM

Drunkmonkey79 wrote: »

Is this a steroid debate or a show of hands as to who would/would not be interested in attending!?!

Good point, the discussion should be moved to a different thread really.

MaeveD · 02-05-2008 12:32PM

If someone has the time could they stick up a poll please? ....I'm a bit thick and don't know how to do it

Just a simple yes or no to whether people are interested in attending a course.

By the way, for those of you concerned about supporting home grown talent, Mick Doyle is from Ballymun.

Roper · 02-05-2008 12:33PM

Liam,
Edgar Davids was caught using nandralone, but that doesn't mean it's unhealthy for kids to be put into soccer clubs. Equally, the drug's scandals that have afflicted cycling don't mean that getting on a bike and racing someone else is not healthy.

I have to say debates like this, even one that's spiraled out of control like this one, are likely to be picked up in the wrong light by those outside of the sport. Liam for example has more or less asked what anyone from the outside looking in might ask if they saw this topic.

john kavanagh · 02-05-2008 12:43PM

MaeveD wrote: »

By the way, for those of you concerned about supporting home grown talent, Mick Doyle is from Ballymun.

clondalkin

dont be tryna claim a southsider as 'one of yer own'!

mick has taught at my gym and had some interesting applications for muay thai/kickboxing for mma

MaeveD · 02-05-2008 04:30PM

john kavanagh wrote: »

clondalkin dont be tryna claim a southsider as 'one of yer own'!

mick has taught at my gym and had some interesting applications for muay thai/kickboxing for mma

So Rays been tellin me porkie pies the dirty feicer

edit: oops, no he hasn't, born in the Mun, brought up in Clondalkin!

Did you get your new gym member yet spidyman? (shivers down my spine)

dlofnep · 02-05-2008 07:30PM

David Jones wrote: »

Yeah and you get that vascularity and size by maximuscle and pints of milk alone I suppose, c'mon. Just a bigger version of Sherk.

Well, he hasn't failed any tests - Has he? And I'm sure, someone of his stature would be a primary target for testing. People's bodies vary. Maybe he puts hard work in the gym? But no - anybody with any remote amount of muscle mass, must be juicing. It's theoretically impossible for someone to gain due to hard work.

David Jones · 02-05-2008 08:15PM

Well, he hasn't failed any tests - Has he? And I'm sure, someone of his stature would be a primary target for testing. People's bodies vary. Maybe he puts hard work in the gym? But no - anybody with any remote amount of muscle mass, must be juicing. It's theoretically impossible for someone to gain due to hard work.

You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. There are plenty of hard working gym rats, I used to be one before JK gave me the whole blue pill / red pill thing. Its not theoretically impossible for someone to gain due to hard work, you are right, but imo a large proportion of pro fighters juice. That is an opinion, you are entitled to disagree, and I respect that.

cowzerp · 02-05-2008 09:29PM

Some people just look unnaturally muscled for there size, theres a few in ireland that that could be used against too, personally i think alexander looks like he's made to be big, Sherk looks obviously unnatural, GSP shows signs! I'm of the belief that its innocent untill proven guilty.
but cheats cant feel the same about there win as us natural folk-:D

If your in it just for money then maybe that does not matter to ya!

john kavanagh · 02-05-2008 10:59PM

MaeveD wrote: »

edit: oops, no he hasn't, born in the Mun, brought up in Clondalkin!

ah so thats where he got his manners/class from...:D

MaeveD wrote: »

Did you get your new gym member yet spidyman? (shivers down my spine)

yep....a real beauty

say ello to ma lil frien....

dlofnep · 02-05-2008 11:27PM

Jesus, size of that thing. My friend has 8 tarantulas! They scare the heebie-jeebies out of me.

Dave - I appreciate where you are coming from and what you have seen in the background of MMA shows, but I'm a firm believer in innocent until proven guilty. If Houston tests positive, which he never has - then maybe we could have this discussion. But he hasn't - so until then, it's purely speculation and not something I'd like to make accusations based on.

David Jones · 03-05-2008 10:59AM

If Houston tests positive, which he never has - then maybe we could have this discussion.

If Houston tests positive, it wont be a discussion.

But he hasn't - so until then, it's purely speculation and not something I'd like to make accusations based on.

Vitamnin S? :rolleyes:

I thought that came across as a speculative comment? Like I said not accusing Houston or anyone but as far as I'm aware I'm still allowed speculate as to who might be juicing in the UFC.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 03-05-2008 11:19AM

David Jones wrote: »

Yeah and you get that vascularity and size by maximuscle and pints of milk alone I suppose, c'mon. Just a bigger version of Sherk.

He ain't that big.

No reason to suspect he's juicing just from his size & vascularity.

cowzerp · 03-05-2008 11:31AM

john kavanagh wrote: »

John are ya sure this fella is not on vitamin s??

arybvtcw0eolkf · 03-05-2008 11:42AM

cowzerp wrote: »

John are ya sure this fella is not on vitamin s??

Spider's on drugs..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHzdsFiBbFc

Mikel · 03-05-2008 02:26PM

Incidentally, Michelle Smith never failed a drugs test.
Does make her innocent?
Linford only failed one in the last race (I think) of his career in some mickey mouse event. Even then the apologists were out in force saying he wouldn't risk it for such a small event. So if he never ran that race are you not allowed point out he was obviously on gear?
Ben Johnson was obviously using, it was an open secret in athletics, Carl Lewis used to call him 'old yellow eyes' to draw attention to it. But up to that race he had never tested positive, does that leave him in the clear up to then?
We'll always have the believers who don't want to see whats in front of their eyes, and the cynics who think everyone's at it.

Interestingly, I read an interview with Johnson's coach Charlie Francis, he claimed that Johnson was spiked or the test was falsified because he wasn't using what he tested positive for.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/athletics/article1161566.ece

David Jones · 03-05-2008 03:05PM

Incidentally, Michelle Smith never failed a drugs test.
Does make her innocent?

No she was found guilty of tampering with a urine sample.

Linfords sample taken during the 1988 100m that ben johnson was disqualified also gave rise to some concern, i think at the time it was put down to herbal tea. He was banned for Nandrolone usage at the end of his career. Carl Lewis was nothing short of scum. He persecuted Ben Johnson while at the same time was no doubt juiced up to his eyeballs and was rightly stripped of his gold medals. The IOC is a sham, they limit the amount of athletes they catch because it looks bad for the games and the ethic they are supposed to represent, amaterism, citius, altius, fortius and all that chariots of fire BS.
The games are a test of who can take what, mask it with what and get away with it. Steroids are rampant in modern sport, which has been corrupted by tv, media, sponsors and public etc all demanding faster, higher, stronger, longer performances to boost ratings, revenue etc etc

When Lesnar fights Coleman later this year are we honestly going to believe that we are witnessing two "clean" athletes competing?? I dont think anyone with an ounce of intelligence believes that.

The idealist inside of all of us wants to believe our heroes and role models arent cheats. Then again if everyone is taking drugs is it really cheating? Has any athlete ever won the Tour De France without taking drugs? You would love to think so, its possibly one of the greatest endurance tests of man on the planet. But word from inside the sport is that everyone is on something and that if they arent they arent in contention. A friend of mine who does a lot of cycling and is planning on doing the Ras this year, was in conversation with some club cyclists. One of the older cyclists asked him if he needed gear, he said no he had all the shoes, lycra etc etc no realising initially the guy meant drugs. He copped it and then asked will I really need them? The old guy said only if you plan on being in the top 40, The key to avoid testing apparently is to avoid finishing top 10 on any day and you can pretty much take what you want.

At the end of the day, sitting around on your ass injecting steroids isnt going to make you a champion. It still takes all the hard work, sacrifice and commitment etc but it has to sour the joy of winning in some shape or form.

eoghan.geraghty · 03-05-2008 04:46PM

Never knew that about Carl Lewis,I always thought he might be clean, he had a fluid relaxed running style, I'd always link steroid usage (nandrolone or deca to bodybuilders) to a more explosive style. We judge with our eyes a lot I suppose.
Dave have you any links on the Lewis stuff, I'd like to read more on it so I'll get onto me googles too.

David Jones · 03-05-2008 05:55PM

http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Olympics-Behind-Scenes-Politics/dp/0470834544

The 5 rings one is very good too.

The thing that really pissed me off about lewis was he was always professing to be such a christian too. I guess he never read "let he who casts the first stone"
Ben Johnson was made a scapegoat for that race and its more than likely even runners 5 - 8 were also on drugs.

Mikel · 03-05-2008 07:53PM

Didn't know that about lewis, looked too small.
Christie claimed it was ginseng tea in 88, yeah right.
MMA will go the same way as every other sport, athletics cycling and baseball are irretrievably tainted by steriods. The UFC et al should have clamped down on it completely from the start.
Re the tour de france read Paul Kimmage

Nothingcompares · 04-05-2008 12:13AM

Dave - what do you reckon about rugby and soccer at the highest level with regard to steroid use and abuse?

David Jones · 04-05-2008 09:46AM

Rugby is very poorly tested a leftover from its amateurish status where no one wanted to see it tainted so I would say there is a fair bit of usage in the upper echelons and also at club level in Ieland, Im going to be fitness and conditioning coach for an AIL team next year so I will let you know what I think then. Footballs problems are more alcohol, cocaine and gambling related although Im sure there are some on Juice, stands to reason.Pro athletes etc all trying to make a living through their athleticism. Football has much less emphasis on raw power though so has less need for development of such.

t-ha · 04-05-2008 01:25PM

Mikel wrote: »

Didn't know that about lewis, looked too small.

TBH this was kind of my point - people assume too much from appearances. Different fighters are discussed around here all the time and no-one ever says 'vitamin s?' about them. It just seems like alot of people have this notion that people who aren't big and muscular must be clean and people who are must be juicing.

Fozzy · 04-05-2008 03:55PM

Mikel wrote: »

MMA will go the same way as every other sport, athletics cycling and baseball are irretrievably tainted by steriods. The UFC et al should have clamped down on it completely from the start.

I'm not sure about that. When you look at all these sports, cycling, baseball, swimming, etc, it's the sports' governing bodies who do the testing. The UFC is tested by the US government

The athletic commission in Nevada now tests fighters randomly outside of competition time, meaning that the fighters can't cycle off whatever they're on before the test if they're using something. California is working to put the same system in place

I'm not totally sure, but there might even be legal issues which prevent the UFC from doing the testing themselves, meaning that it's not up to them how strict the testing is. But I think the right steps are being taken and it's getting a lot more comprehensive than many other sports

Mikel · 04-05-2008 07:02PM

I can't see how that can be true, if an mma show wants to put a testing policy in place what's to stop them? Is there a governing body for mma?
Who tests the fighters at Cage Rage? It's hardly the UK gov is it?
Surely the show themselves are responsible for testing, and can put any criteria they like in place?

Fozzy · 04-05-2008 07:15PM

Mikel wrote: »

I can't see how that can be true, if an mma show wants to put a testing policy in place what's to stop them? Is there a governing body for mma?
Who tests the fighters at Cage Rage? It's hardly the UK gov is it?
Surely the show themselves are responsible for testing, and can put any criteria they like in place?

Like I said, I'm not totally sure. But the UFC is governed by the athletic commission of whatever state they're in, and it's the athletic commission that has the responsibility of testing the fighters. If the UFC did its own testing and found someone testing positive for a banned substance, I just wouldn't be surprised if there was some law that the fighter could use in their favour to argue that they passed all the athletic commission's tests and that the UFC tests would be unfair

It's a different situation in the UK, there's no legal requirement to test for drugs. But Cage Rage started their own testing last year

kray · 04-05-2008 07:27PM

as a matter of interest, was there testing at cage rage contenders this weekend?

cowzerp · 04-05-2008 08:23PM

Yes 2 athletes tested there abilitys against each other in about 9 fights!!

how much money do you think is involved in the local shows?? not enough to warrant testing, maybe JK will say different!

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