MMA Seminar

MaeveD

Lads, Fightlord are looking at bringing Houston Alexander and his trainer Mick Doyle over to give a one day seminar here in Dublin probably in late June.

They're trying to see what interest there would be... so would you guys let me know what you think please?

dlofnep

It would be interesting for sure.

Ramunas

will be great

geronimo1

dlofnep wrote: »

It would be interesting for sure.

interestin if you wanna know how to get knocked out in 8 seconds and put your name in the ufc history books as the quickest knockout ever.Or if you wanna show terrible ground game against thiago silva and get ground and pound inside a minute.Come on surely you can do better than gettin a weightlifter to teach how to lose.

dlofnep

geronimo1 wrote: »

interestin if you wanna know how to get knocked out in 8 seconds and put your name in the ufc history books as the quickest knockout ever.Or if you wanna show terrible ground game against thiago silva and get ground and pound inside a minute.Come on surely you can do better than gettin a weightlifter to teach how to lose.

Surely his trainer might have something to offer?

Perhaps Houston has an insight into his strength and conditioning training for his explosive nature?

He's beaten Keith Jardine.. Who have you beat again?

David Jones

Perhaps Houston has an insight into his strength and conditioning training for his explosive nature

Vitamin S? :rolleyes:

dunkamania

I doubt there is much interest in a Houston Alexander seminar tbh

Judomad

David Jones wrote: »

Vitamin S? :rolleyes:

:D:D:D:D:D:D class

Nothingcompares

dunkamania wrote: »

I doubt there is much interest in a Houston Alexander seminar tbh

I reckon they'd sell 30 seats no problem for a Houston Alexander / Mick Doyle seminar if it's publicised the right way. He's a MMA fighter and I think a lot of mma fans would pay to do some mma with him.

Roper

Well, no disrespect to Houston Alexander or Mick Doyle, but...

He's a UFC fighter, and he has a coach. I agree, I reckon you'd get 30 spaces filled no bother for it. Possibly not with hardcore Irish MMA trainees and fighters, but maybe with casual trainees and fans.

However, up the road in Antrim is Davey Patterson, who has trained Stevie Lynch who has fought in the UFC. By the same token, John Kavanagh is one of Europe's top grapplers and has coached people to major victories in Europe at Cage Rage among other top shows.

Ah maybe I'm just having a right moan about how people don't appreciate home grown talent I would pay good money to see someone international who is on the next level to Patterson, Kavanagh et al. so don't get me wrong I'm not anti-seminar!

I suppose yes, you would get people for that seminar, but would it add anything to Irish MMA? I don't really know, I would hazard a guess that bringing over Phil Magliarese again would be better:D (I'm only saying that cos I missed that seminar and I believe it was really good!)

And maybe I'm just in a bad mood too

dlofnep

David Jones wrote: »

Vitamin S? :rolleyes:

Unfair David. He hasn't tested positive for roids and it's unfair of you to make such a statement.

David Jones

Unfair David. He hasn't tested positive for roids and it's unfair of you to make such a statement.

Yeah and you get that vascularity and size by maximuscle and pints of milk alone I suppose, c'mon. Just a bigger version of Sherk.

t-ha

David Jones wrote: »

Yeah and you get that vascularity and size by maximuscle and pints of milk alone I suppose, c'mon. Just a bigger version of Sherk.

It's definitely not impossible if you've got the right parents. I know some huge guys who are definitely natural and by contrast you can pick out sports people who've actually been tested positive for steroids that are nothing close to that size (Royce Gracie, Cristophe Dugarry, Petr Korda, etc.). Maybe he is juicing but you can't say that for certain just because he decided to pack some meat on himself, and until he fails a drug test I think it's disrespectful to just assume it. I know personally quite a few people who do take steroids that are smaller and weaker than I am even though I've never touched them and, although I tend to take it as a compliment because it generally means I'm in good shape, I've had the vitamin S thing thrown at me several times before.

Judomad

David Jones wrote: »

Yeah and you get that vascularity and size by maximuscle and pints of milk alone I suppose, c'mon. Just a bigger version of Sherk.

+1 im with you on this one Dave

Tim_Murphy

Ya ye're right, innocent until proven guilty: who needs it. :rolleyes:

dunkamania

No opinion on Houston and vitamin S, I like his fights, win or lose. Given that there are a limited number of seminars in a year this is not one that would be any where near top of my list.

geronimo1

dlofnep wrote: »

Surely his trainer might have something to offer?

Perhaps Houston has an insight into his strength and conditioning training for his explosive nature?

He's beaten Keith Jardine.. Who have you beat again?

its not about me beaten anyone just think theres better options out there than a really average ufc fighter.so sorry about your hit nerve.

David Jones

It's definitely not impossible if you've got the right parents. I know some huge guys who are definitely natural and by contrast you can pick out sports people who've actually been tested positive for steroids that are nothing close to that size (Royce Gracie, Cristophe Dugarry, Petr Korda, etc.). Maybe he is juicing but you can't say that for certain just because he decided to pack some meat on himself, and until he fails a drug test I think it's disrespectful to just assume it.

Sorry but you cant retain that amount of muscle mass with the sheer volume of training UFC fighters have to go through and not juice. The guy is 36 years old too, his testosterone levels are already on the downturn naturally. If he knows what he is doing it doesnt matter if he is tested, testing is no guarantee of finding a steroid user. Im sure Mark Kerr never tested positive for steroids either but have you seen the smashing machine? Randleman, Coleman, Lesnar? c'mon no one actually believes these guys are clean, they are or were just clever or had clever people advising them.

cowzerp

David Jones wrote: »

Sorry but you cant retain that amount of muscle mass with the sheer volume of training UFC fighters have to go through and not juice. The guy is 36 years old too, his testosterone levels are already on the downturn naturally..

Although i believe you may be right on the steroid comment, it is possible to maintain this sort of muscle mass if
1, good genetics
2. lots of good food, staying in an anabolic state
3. keeping up weight training

lots more reasons too!!

MaeveD

Jaysus Roper you are in a bad mood, I thought those exams were over Phils course was excellent, he got his 3rd degree just before he came over.

I'm a firm believer in training with as many instructors as possible... how do you know your teacher/coach is really any good if you haven't compared him... by training with someone else?

Ray spoke to Houston on the phone the other day and he seems to be a genuinely nice guy. I doubt he's on anything seeing as he only has one kidney... which he gave to his daughter, one of six kids he's bringing up on his own :eek: He also fought in hundreds of local fights before the UFC to pay the bills... that's how he was discovered...

t-ha

David Jones wrote: »

Sorry but you cant retain that amount of muscle mass with the sheer volume of training UFC fighters have to go through and not juice. The guy is 36 years old too, his testosterone levels are already on the downturn naturally. If he knows what he is doing it doesnt matter if he is tested, testing is no guarantee of finding a steroid user. Im sure Mark Kerr never tested positive for steroids either but have you seen the smashing machine? Randleman, Coleman, Lesnar? c'mon no one actually believes these guys are clean, they are or were just clever or had clever people advising them.

Fair point about the training volume of UFC fighters, but I still think making the statement that you CANNOT retain that much muscle mass is incorrect.

Here's Alexander under the best possible lighting for showing muscle. Comparing that to people I know I think it can definitely be done. There are those genetic freaks out there + I get the impression that he maybe balances his training too much in the weights room and on the heavy bags and not enough on the mats!
Is this really IMPOSSIBLE to achieve without steroids?

Nothingcompares

he looks a lot like me

cletus

didn't know you were bald, nothingcompares

Tim_Murphy

Sorry but you cant retain that amount of muscle mass with the sheer volume of training UFC fighters have to go through and not juice. The guy is 36 years old too, his testosterone levels are already on the downturn naturally. If he knows what he is doing it doesnt matter if he is tested, testing is no guarantee of finding a steroid user. Im sure Mark Kerr never tested positive for steroids either but have you seen the smashing machine? Randleman, Coleman, Lesnar? c'mon no one actually believes these guys are clean, they are or were just clever or had clever people advising them

That’s a nicely unfalsifiable hypothesis you’ve got going there Dave. Of course using this rationale it's impossible for anyone to show that they are not cheating. You can accuse anybody of juicing and when they are not caught just say they have smart people advising them.

David Jones

That’s a nicely unfalsifiable hypothesis you’ve got going there Dave. Of course using this rationale it's impossible for anyone to show that they are not cheating. You can accuse anybody of juicing and when they are not caught just say they have smart people advising them.

I have been back stage and in the warm up areas of more US Pro MMA shows, than anyone on this forum. Im talking King of the Cage, Gladiator Challenge, UFC, Rage in a Cage, Extreme Brawl, Ultimate Athlete to name a few, I have seen people break the governing body rules with regard to steroids. I have been around current fighters early in their career who juiced and are still juicing. Its my honest opinion that most of the fighters in the upper echelons of both PRIDE (now gone) and the UFC have or are juicing during their training regimens. Its up there with Tour De France in that regard. You can be an also ran or you can juice and be a top contender. Thats not taking away from the training and commitment these athletes put in, I just dont believe the vast majority are doing it chemical free. And further to the point, I dont believe every athlete that has stepped in an Irish Cage or Ring show is clean either. I think there is definitely steroid use albeit on a much smaller level. Do I have scientific evidence to back that up, no, because if the Nevada State Athletic Commissions testing proceedures are prehistoric, then ours are in the primordial ooze. What I do have is a degree and post grad in sports science, and a lot of observation time in gyms and shows in the US.

And you know what, Just because you don't get caught, doesn't make you innocent when it comes to cheating in sport.

Tim_Murphy

And you know what, Just because you don't get caught, doesn't make you innocent when it comes to cheating in sport.

Agree completely. However that doesn't mean that one can simply label someone a cheater based on your own past experiences of other fighters and on how he looks. The NSAC testing procedures may be prehistoric as you say (I have no idea) but it's still got to be better than just looking at a guy and making a judgement call purely on his appearance.

Aside: apparently the nsac has introduced random testing for mma fighters, Sherk recently came back clean http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=6196&zoneid=13

t-ha

OK, my main point is that some people look at a guy who isn't built and assume he's clean, and look at a guy who is built and assume he's using. I've no doubt that there is widespread steroid use in MMA, as with pretty much all sports, but I've seen enough guys on steroids and enough natural guys to know that it's not always the ones you think just by looking at them. If it's so widespread then why pick on Houston and not GSP, JZ or any of the multitudes of other fighters that are discussed on these boards all the time?

silat liam

t-ha wrote: »

I've no doubt that there is widespread steroid use in MMA, as with pretty much all sports, but I've seen enough guys on steroids and enough natural guys to know that it's not always the ones you think just by looking at them. If it's so widespread then why pick on Houston and not GSP, JZ or any of the multitudes of other fighters that are discussed on these boards all the time?

Just wondering, if this is the case, can mma not be train without taking steroids, or does that leave you with a disadvantage. Otherwise the message it giving young kids joining the sport, that you need to start taking steroids / drugs to make a name for yourself. Which goes against the ethos of doing martial arts in itself.

David Jones

Agree completely. However that doesn't mean that one can simply label someone a cheater based on your own past experiences of other fighters and on how he looks.

My original comment was vitamin s? :rolleyes:

Speculation using a question mark, not labelling, ie I have my suspicions which Im entitled to.

Aside: apparently the nsac has introduced random testing for mma fighters, Sherk recently came back clean

Testing proceedures often find what they want or are told to find. Are you seriously telling me that Sherks physique is down to the 40 or so vitamins and herbal stuff he takes plus some organic vegetable shopping which was filmed on inside the UFC? C'mon. At least Franca owned up.
In the 1984 LA Olympic games, many US athletes sample A's tested positive, somewhere between one floor of the same testing facility and another, their sample B's went missing. Coincidence?

How did Linford Christie suddenly drastically improve his 100m times after age 30? How come it took years for the British Governing Body to find out about his steroid use? Tests were supposed to be random yet many British Athletes knew in advance who was going to be tested and when and Linford at one stage had up to 10 addresses which made him very hard to track down. Carl Lewis for years the Golden boy of US athletics and one of those most outspoken in condemning Ben Johnson for steroid use was himself guilty as sin of the same crime. In fact the top 4 athletes in that infamous 1988 100m all tested positive for steroids at some point in there career, so are we to assume the guy who came 5th was clean and legitamately won the race? When our own Michelle Smith suddenly started improving her swimming times drastically ie in the space of 2 seasons, and her husband is a dutch man with a history of using steroids was it any surprise to all but the most naiive of people that she was on some performance enhancers?

If it's so widespread then why pick on Houston and not GSP, JZ or any of the multitudes of other fighters that are discussed on these boards all the time?

Its my honest opinion that most of the fighters in the upper echelons of both PRIDE (now gone) and the UFC have or are juicing during their training regimens.

I thought I did that.

Just wondering, if this is the case, can mma not be train without taking steroids, or does that leave you with a disadvantage

Anything can be trained without steroids. Not taking them will only disadvantage you if you are competing against other athletes who are taking them and not being caught.

Drunkmonkey79

Is this a steroid debate or a show of hands as to who would/would not be interested in attending!?!

David Jones

well said drunkmonkey.

john kavanagh

silat liam wrote: »

Otherwise the message it giving young kids joining the sport

the message we give kids in our mma training is

keep yourself in shape - healthy body, healthy mind
eat right...for the most part
avoid chemicals that'll have a negative impact on your health
lose the ego...training in combat athletics will do that for you as you are constantly being reminded how much you need to improve in all ranges by drilling with resistance or sparring

liam all sports which have an element of physical endurance and has mucho $$$ involved are dogged by steroids.....swimming, cycling, baseball....it doesnt matter. to believe otherwise would be naive. however to keep kids away from sports because of this would certainly be throwing the baby out with bathwater...or whatever that saying is

cletus

@silat liam: i don't think anybody is suggesting that you cannot train in mma without taking steroids, the discussion is really revolving around the use of steroids at the highest level in the sport. this conversation could just as easily be applied to almost any other sport at its highest level, such as track and filed events, swimming, cycling, etc etc. However, i don't think anybody would suggest that children do not run, swim, or cycle due to this

EDIT: John Kavanagh got there aead of me

Tim_Murphy

David Jones wrote: »

My original comment was vitamin s? :rolleyes:

Speculation using a question mark, not labelling, ie I have my suspicions which Im entitled to.

Fair enough.

Are you seriously telling me that Sherks physique is down to the 40 or so vitamins and herbal stuff he takes plus some organic vegetable shopping which was filmed on inside the UFC? C'mon.

No, I was simply stating the results of a recent drugs test. I doubt many people were that surprised when Sherk tested positive the first time.

Testing proceedures often find what they want or are told to find.

If you say so. Again using this logic it’s impossible to falsify anything. Nobody can prove thems innocent.

Tim_Murphy

Drunkmonkey79 wrote: »

Is this a steroid debate or a show of hands as to who would/would not be interested in attending!?!

Good point, the discussion should be moved to a different thread really.

MaeveD

If someone has the time could they stick up a poll please? ....I'm a bit thick and don't know how to do it Just a simple yes or no to whether people are interested in attending a course.

By the way, for those of you concerned about supporting home grown talent, Mick Doyle is from Ballymun.

Roper

Liam,
Edgar Davids was caught using nandralone, but that doesn't mean it's unhealthy for kids to be put into soccer clubs. Equally, the drug's scandals that have afflicted cycling don't mean that getting on a bike and racing someone else is not healthy.

I have to say debates like this, even one that's spiraled out of control like this one, are likely to be picked up in the wrong light by those outside of the sport. Liam for example has more or less asked what anyone from the outside looking in might ask if they saw this topic.

john kavanagh

MaeveD wrote: »

By the way, for those of you concerned about supporting home grown talent, Mick Doyle is from Ballymun.

clondalkin dont be tryna claim a southsider as 'one of yer own'!

mick has taught at my gym and had some interesting applications for muay thai/kickboxing for mma

MaeveD

john kavanagh wrote: »

clondalkin dont be tryna claim a southsider as 'one of yer own'!

mick has taught at my gym and had some interesting applications for muay thai/kickboxing for mma

So Rays been tellin me porkie pies the dirty feicer edit: oops, no he hasn't, born in the Mun, brought up in Clondalkin!

Did you get your new gym member yet spidyman? (shivers down my spine)

dlofnep

David Jones wrote: »

Yeah and you get that vascularity and size by maximuscle and pints of milk alone I suppose, c'mon. Just a bigger version of Sherk.

Well, he hasn't failed any tests - Has he? And I'm sure, someone of his stature would be a primary target for testing. People's bodies vary. Maybe he puts hard work in the gym? But no - anybody with any remote amount of muscle mass, must be juicing. It's theoretically impossible for someone to gain due to hard work.

David Jones

Well, he hasn't failed any tests - Has he? And I'm sure, someone of his stature would be a primary target for testing. People's bodies vary. Maybe he puts hard work in the gym? But no - anybody with any remote amount of muscle mass, must be juicing. It's theoretically impossible for someone to gain due to hard work.

You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. There are plenty of hard working gym rats, I used to be one before JK gave me the whole blue pill / red pill thing. Its not theoretically impossible for someone to gain due to hard work, you are right, but imo a large proportion of pro fighters juice. That is an opinion, you are entitled to disagree, and I respect that.

cowzerp

Some people just look unnaturally muscled for there size, theres a few in ireland that that could be used against too, personally i think alexander looks like he's made to be big, Sherk looks obviously unnatural, GSP shows signs! I'm of the belief that its innocent untill proven guilty.
but cheats cant feel the same about there win as us natural folk-:D

If your in it just for money then maybe that does not matter to ya!

john kavanagh

MaeveD wrote: »

edit: oops, no he hasn't, born in the Mun, brought up in Clondalkin!

ah so thats where he got his manners/class from...:D

MaeveD wrote: »

Did you get your new gym member yet spidyman? (shivers down my spine)

yep....a real beauty

say ello to ma lil frien....

dlofnep

Jesus, size of that thing. My friend has 8 tarantulas! They scare the heebie-jeebies out of me.

Dave - I appreciate where you are coming from and what you have seen in the background of MMA shows, but I'm a firm believer in innocent until proven guilty. If Houston tests positive, which he never has - then maybe we could have this discussion. But he hasn't - so until then, it's purely speculation and not something I'd like to make accusations based on.

David Jones

If Houston tests positive, which he never has - then maybe we could have this discussion.

If Houston tests positive, it wont be a discussion.

But he hasn't - so until then, it's purely speculation and not something I'd like to make accusations based on.

Vitamnin S? :rolleyes:

I thought that came across as a speculative comment? Like I said not accusing Houston or anyone but as far as I'm aware I'm still allowed speculate as to who might be juicing in the UFC.

arybvtcw0eolkf

David Jones wrote: »

Yeah and you get that vascularity and size by maximuscle and pints of milk alone I suppose, c'mon. Just a bigger version of Sherk.

He ain't that big.

No reason to suspect he's juicing just from his size & vascularity.

cowzerp

john kavanagh wrote: »

John are ya sure this fella is not on vitamin s??

arybvtcw0eolkf

cowzerp wrote: »

John are ya sure this fella is not on vitamin s??

Spider's on drugs..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHzdsFiBbFc

Mikel

Incidentally, Michelle Smith never failed a drugs test.
Does make her innocent?
Linford only failed one in the last race (I think) of his career in some mickey mouse event. Even then the apologists were out in force saying he wouldn't risk it for such a small event. So if he never ran that race are you not allowed point out he was obviously on gear?
Ben Johnson was obviously using, it was an open secret in athletics, Carl Lewis used to call him 'old yellow eyes' to draw attention to it. But up to that race he had never tested positive, does that leave him in the clear up to then?
We'll always have the believers who don't want to see whats in front of their eyes, and the cynics who think everyone's at it.

Interestingly, I read an interview with Johnson's coach Charlie Francis, he claimed that Johnson was spiked or the test was falsified because he wasn't using what he tested positive for.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/athletics/article1161566.ece

David Jones

Incidentally, Michelle Smith never failed a drugs test.
Does make her innocent?

No she was found guilty of tampering with a urine sample.

Linfords sample taken during the 1988 100m that ben johnson was disqualified also gave rise to some concern, i think at the time it was put down to herbal tea. He was banned for Nandrolone usage at the end of his career. Carl Lewis was nothing short of scum. He persecuted Ben Johnson while at the same time was no doubt juiced up to his eyeballs and was rightly stripped of his gold medals. The IOC is a sham, they limit the amount of athletes they catch because it looks bad for the games and the ethic they are supposed to represent, amaterism, citius, altius, fortius and all that chariots of fire BS.
The games are a test of who can take what, mask it with what and get away with it. Steroids are rampant in modern sport, which has been corrupted by tv, media, sponsors and public etc all demanding faster, higher, stronger, longer performances to boost ratings, revenue etc etc

When Lesnar fights Coleman later this year are we honestly going to believe that we are witnessing two "clean" athletes competing?? I dont think anyone with an ounce of intelligence believes that.

The idealist inside of all of us wants to believe our heroes and role models arent cheats. Then again if everyone is taking drugs is it really cheating? Has any athlete ever won the Tour De France without taking drugs? You would love to think so, its possibly one of the greatest endurance tests of man on the planet. But word from inside the sport is that everyone is on something and that if they arent they arent in contention. A friend of mine who does a lot of cycling and is planning on doing the Ras this year, was in conversation with some club cyclists. One of the older cyclists asked him if he needed gear, he said no he had all the shoes, lycra etc etc no realising initially the guy meant drugs. He copped it and then asked will I really need them? The old guy said only if you plan on being in the top 40, The key to avoid testing apparently is to avoid finishing top 10 on any day and you can pretty much take what you want.

At the end of the day, sitting around on your ass injecting steroids isnt going to make you a champion. It still takes all the hard work, sacrifice and commitment etc but it has to sour the joy of winning in some shape or form.

eoghan.geraghty

Never knew that about Carl Lewis,I always thought he might be clean, he had a fluid relaxed running style, I'd always link steroid usage (nandrolone or deca to bodybuilders) to a more explosive style. We judge with our eyes a lot I suppose.
Dave have you any links on the Lewis stuff, I'd like to read more on it so I'll get onto me googles too.