Ceremony, rituals and protocol

SorGan · 28-04-2008 08:34PM

ezemska wrote: »

Kind of like the way Dove isn't a soap?

correct.
it doesn't involve a belief in any god.

..im nit picking i know.:)

Tim_Murphy · 28-04-2008 09:58PM

correct.
it doesn't involve a belief in any god

Is belief in a specific deity entirely necessary before something can be labelled a religion?

yomchi · 28-04-2008 10:27PM

According to Buddhist spiritual leaders, for example the Dalai Lama and the Tibetin Karmapa, Buddhism is classed as a non-religion as there is no belief in a creator god.

One definition of religion can be summed up as:
'belief in a divine or superhuman power or powers to be obeyed and worshipped as the creator(s) and ruler(s) of the universe'

or;

'an organized system of faith and worship'

Neither exist in Buddhist philosophy.

Its a massive debate tbh

Tim_Murphy · 28-04-2008 11:34PM

Its a massive debate tbh

Indeed it is. One that is perhaps not entirely relevant to this thread.

yomchi · 28-04-2008 11:36PM

I suppose it has its place in relation to Wai Kru as discussed earlier, but that could meander way out of control

Khannie · 29-04-2008 09:03AM

Jon wrote: »

I suppose it has its place in relation to Wai Kru as discussed earlier, but that could meander way out of control

Yeah, some people wont perform the Wai Kru because they're not Buddhist (recent example in "Contender Asia" by a Muslim lad).

Musashi · 29-04-2008 09:49AM

Jon and some of the lads probably know I was originally ITK RITA TKD, for the unbelievers that means tha Original and bestest TKD on Earth!

I can remember being told at an Umpires course that as 1-3 Dans we were not to talk to colour belts at Tournaments. The 3rd Dans up were also instructed to not talk to us! Blue blazers don't mis with Green Blazers!

Thankfully I never got the blazer or the attitude? I knew a few "Masters" who were more interested in jewellry and grading fees than teaching, and insisted on being called "Master"

Another guy was of similar rank, we called him "Bisto" and he taught us anything he could, no ego and no BS! We often met him at our instructors house and he'd be the one getting the kettle on.

I don't miss that end of the style, but there were good folks involved and good training to be had. I can't remeber who suggested that TKD and similar don't train daily, run and fight, avoid drink and fatty foods? May have been Ekzema? I know a lot of lads live and train for fighting, even if not in one of the "Approved Stand Up" fighting Arts!

RedRaven · 29-04-2008 10:02AM

Jon wrote: »

'belief in a divine or superhuman power or powers to be obeyed and worshipped as the creator(s) and ruler(s) of the universe

Somebody mention me...!!!:D:D:D:p;)

yomchi · 29-04-2008 12:16PM

I can remember being told at an Umpires course that as 1-3 Dans we were not to talk to colour belts at Tournaments

Hi Mush,
I may be able to shed some light on this, however you were at this umpire course, so I maybe wrong.
Officially a B class umpire or 2nd to 3rd dan at a tournament shouldn't mix or fraternise with competitors, this can be construde as non-professional. For example, a corner judge in sparring over sitting down having a natter with a possible competitor that will be in his or her ring, they maybe only catching up, but it doesn't look good, favouritism is on show and may bring protest from other competitors or coaches.
'A' class umpires, 4th degree and over are the one's who over see the running of rings, they generally have more experience at that level, so they officiate at jury level, and over see the B class umpires and make sure everyone is performing well at a judging level, they dismiss any judge that may seem to be bias or just daft, - so chin wagging between them at tournaments is classed as non-professional.

Its really just about keeping tournaments above board and keeping everything running on a professional bases.
When the tournament is over everything is back to 'normal'

Maybe thats what was meant, which is common practice at official ITF tournament,

yomchi · 29-04-2008 12:24PM

Just to come back to the subject of ceremony, as we've read the wai kru is a very spiritual ceremony paying respect to family, teacher and art. I remember watching Craig O'Flynn fighting Nong Toom, and the ceremony Toom performed included what looked like putting on make up and dressing up and looking pretty.
Where does that come into the whole spiritual aspect and respect? Or was that one he/she made up him/herself?

found it- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBtYxJ14HNk

ezemska · 29-04-2008 01:54PM

Don't forget the Ram Muay where he mimes out digging a grave and then goes on to piss on it.

ryoishin · 29-04-2008 02:01PM

the make up thing...... google beautiful boxer, a true story film about a thai boxer who was a man who wanted to be a woman, so fought for money to get a sex change.

I bought that movie by accident. The cover showed it got all sorts of awards for the ring scenes and how people got knocked out in the filming. When i got home i opened the case to see the dvd had a pic of a hand with wraps on and long red finger nails. I thought i bought porn by mistake, so i put it on anyway, savage movie.

yomchi · 29-04-2008 02:26PM

ryoishin wrote: »

the make up thing...... google beautiful boxer, a true story film about a thai boxer who was a man who wanted to be a woman, so fought for money to get a sex change.

I bought that movie by accident. The cover showed it got all sorts of awards for the ring scenes and how people got knocked out in the filming. When i got home i opened the case to see the dvd had a pic of a hand with wraps on and long red finger nails. I thought i bought porn by mistake, so i put it on anyway, savage movie.

Ay, seen the film, great one too. In the youtube clip he hasn't made the change and is still a male. My question was however on that particular dance, in comparison to more traditional ones.

Nothingcompares · 29-04-2008 02:39PM

My interpretation of the wai kru and all that is that it's like the Haka. It's a cultural thing you don't have to do unless you feel it is appropriate to do so. Therefore, people can come up with any kind of dance that they like. There isn't someone at the side checking angles of your feet and ****. I really like the wai kru and the music I think it really ads to the athmosphere of thai bouts, really reminds you that it isn't "just kickboxing with elbows".

Colm_OReilly · 29-04-2008 03:10PM

ezemska,

Take a week break. PM me when you feel you can carry on a decent conversation.

Siamdragon · 29-04-2008 03:11PM

First of all I think this person Ezemska has a lot of question to answer on previous post first before any of us both entertaining him on his abrupt point of view witch is serious lacking in respect for anyone or any Art he obviously is missing the whole concept of Martial Arts.

I have lived in Thailand for over ten years, Been around some of the worlds best fighters and trainers, we run our own Muaythai Camp in Thailand witch is a Thai camp not a farang one, and we also Run a gym in Ireland, with Thai back and forth all the time.
Wai Kru and the Ram Muay is misunderstood by many which is a real shame, Just like many of you think its associate with religion, Buddhism is not a religion it is a philosophy a way for one to live life, Thailand is mostly a Buddhist Country so it has strong ties to the People there, there are also many Thai Muslims for which Wai Kru & Ram Muaythai plays a big part of there prefight preparation, One of such fighters that some of you might know is the Famous Namsaknoi he does a beautiful Ram Muay, I also know Catholic Thai that perform this pre fight ceremony
As someone asked about the Nong Tomb Ram Muay it is an old Ram Muay,
where it look like Tomb is putting on lipstick and make up your right as she/he has adopted the dance in that way for personalizing it and showmanship, Which Tomb has done very well and I am please for her, but in the original forum of that dance its very similar the warrior is putting on war paint brushing his hair and making himself look good before battle and anyone who knows Thai way its important one looks good in battle it case it your last as most of us would.
As a lot of the dances including my own Ram Muay which I perform is Rama hunts the Golden Deer, which is another old dance which can be seen on the Grand Place walls in Thailand, a lot of the dances have stories attached to them which show meaning and again understanding of Muaythai the Art and tradition not just the Fighting side
Muaythai is as much a Martial Art as it is a Fighting sport, and Just because many people concentrate on the Fighting sport of Muaythai which is fine, One must not disregard the Martial Art Muaythai and its old values and ways.
Like many things if people keep cutting away pieces all the time the true magic and art gets lost and people only end up doing half
Half of anything is not the full Picture.

SJP

sitjaipetch@mauyhaiireland.com
www.muaythaiireland.com

Khannie · 29-04-2008 04:53PM

Siamdragon wrote: »

One of such fighters that some of you might know is the Famous Namsaknoi he does a beautiful Ram Muay

Here it is.....absolutely class IMO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC6_-xhBv54

crokester · 30-04-2008 04:16AM

A savage Wai Kru by Yoddecha Sityodtong

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re7C5B0aGsA

footbag_man · 30-04-2008 03:46PM

ezemska wrote: »

Then let them call themselves an acrobatics club! I mean christ look at the stuff that passes for "martial arts" these days:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8Lqqy4mIunM

Yes, it looks cool, but she'd probably cry if you hit her a dig.

wow that unreal man, what is that called?

here's the best in the world at it ... what ever it is

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=U9pENtaUCHY

yomchi · 30-04-2008 04:13PM

footbag_man wrote: »

wow that unreal man, what is that called?

here's the best in the world at it ... what ever it is

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=U9pENtaUCHY

Thats easy done. You just heat the floor area up to 500 deg/cel and away you go

Judomad · 30-04-2008 04:30PM

Jon wrote: »

Thats easy done. You just heat the floor area up to 500 deg/cel and away you go

touch of class about that post...im glad im irish, posted a comment on an american forum, which was just a general comment and some dude misunderstood comlletely, so frickin dumb he was....im sure thats common on it too haha

Kalakick · 30-04-2008 05:13PM

The thai guy I know has a Ram Muay that originated from the gym he trained at for 15-20 years in bangkok (he was sold to them when he was 5 or so). Siamdragon I think he did something similar to your Golden Deer (shooting an arrow at his opponent?), I watched him do it quite a few times and it was one of the most unusual and beautiful things I've seen in Muay Thai, which isn't necessarily the most graceful of MA! I saw him do it when in the ring for a demo fight, it was fantastic leadup to the bout because it created tension between him and his opponent, especially when the guy knew how to respond by breaking the arrow over his knee! I would post a link to it on youtube but that's banned at our work

The balance and how he drew the rhythm out of the music was amazing. From what I gather its also used to cleanse/bless? the ring before fighting. Coincidentially this guy is actually mates with/trained with the thai guy who played Nong Toom in the movie. He seems to have a lot more respect for him as a practitioner of Muay Thai than Tony Jaa.

I give respect when respect is deserved, and in all cases, my instructors have deserved it. Many of the 'traditions' involved however such as bowing in/out of the club or on/off the mat is to do with respecting the art, not just the instructor. I like having a way of formally showing my appreciation for MT, and practitioners

TheBigCheese · 01-05-2008 03:26PM

I don't think Tony Jaa ever had a proper fight, although the guy who played Toom still fights these days. Maybe why your mate respects him more. Jaa still the man though IMO.

Ceremony, rituals and protocol

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