Ceremony, rituals and protocol

yomchi

When are ceremony/rituals justified?

I know that some MMA clubs promote themselves as ceremony free, as a marketing strategy which is fine. Ie - 'at our club you'll find no bowing, no salutations, etc etc' some clubs go out of their way to highlight the fact as it's just about the training. Again, all fine and thats not a gripe.
However, as we all know the striking for MMA is heavily influenced by Muay Thai and MMA clubs advertise their striking as Muay Thai based or as Muay Thai itself - you know whats coming next! We all know that Muay Thai probably uses the most ceremony and ritual of all the MA's - that I know anyway. The pre fight praying and spiritual cleaning of the ring, the pre-fight dancing and music, the music during the fight. The fact that fighters practice very long times learning traditional Thai ceremonial dance for Muay Thai. Alot of the time, especially towards some 'TMA's' ceremony is scorned and laughed at, but not for Muay Thai - why?
Will it boil down to the sport is tougher so no one minds?
When can one ritual be accepted and one scorned upon within Martial Arts?

I suppose this raises another question too, if you are teaching Muay Thai without ritual, can it be classed as Muay Thai?

Taken from www.muaythai.com
The Wai Kru (respects to the teacher) also known as Ram Muay (boxing dance) is an important part of any evening watching Thai Boxing. These are ceremonies that are performed before each Muay Thai bout. Sometimes the Wai Kru are brief and basic, but other times they may be eloquent performances that draw praise and applause from the crowd. It is said that those who see well can determine who will win the fight by watching two fighters perform their Wai Kru. Teachers are highly respected in Thai society, and many artistic disciplines, not just Muay Thai, perform Wai Kru or "respects to the teacher". Foreigners viewing these rituals should take care to be polite and not act disrespectfully regarding the Wai Kru. The Thais take seriously any insult to the Wai Kru, just as you would if somebody insulted your spiritual beliefs.

Any input is appreciated, not looking to flame but genuinly interested.

Colm_OReilly

I imagine Fianna will be on in a minute to point out how we're ALL about ritual, etc. But I'll add my 2c first.

There's rituals and practices in all MMA clubs, just as there are in TMA. Now, maybe because these are closer to Western Culture than TMA's, they're not noticed. But we create nicknames for ourselves and our fighters, we teach the kids about "the athletic handshake", we have our acceptable levels of messing/joking/criticism, etc. We whip people when they get their new belts, etc.

All these things help foster a feeling of camaradarie in the club, which is what we're after.

I would put forth that this becomes dangerous when the ritual itself becomes more important than what it's meant to represent.

KIAI!
Colm

ryoishin

I have no problem with rituals and stuff as they can have positive effects, sense of community, part of mental prep. What I do have a problem with is the mindsets that the teacher can give the student a hiding but the respectful student cant go as hard on a higher grade, theres a difference between hard training and bullying.

Also some people forget the most imprtant ritual, was your gi!

yomchi

Maybe Paddy, Paul, Wayne or Craig can give an input as traditional Muay Thai teachers.

Roper

I have no problem with rituals and whatever. Touching gloves, high fiving, even saying certain things all become ingrained into a gym from time to time no matter how un-traditional they are. The problem starts when poorly understood rituals become more important than the training itself, or start to intrude on how well you can train.

I can't speak for Muay Thai teachers as I'm only a babysitter, but the importance of the Wai Kru, not putting pads facing the ground etc. has never interfered with any Muay Thai training I've ever done in Bridgestone or Chupasart, it's just something you do while training hard. So the atheists among us (or those who just don't buy into it) can train away and respect the traditions without it interfering with our training. Whereas I've been in situations where every single utterance, move around the gym etc. had a huge bearing on the training because you had to heed "traditions". The reality was that most of the traditions were modern. In other words it was "Hey, I'm a 4th Dan, I really should have a bit more respect from these new guys, lets make a rule that I have to be called something else".

For my part, the members of my gym call me Barry, and for my part I don't call them my students or anything. I like to think of the organisational structure of my gym as being flat I suppose.

yomchi

Thanks Barry, some good points there.
The use of the term student and instructor are prevalent in Taekwon-Do, which stems from General Choi's Confucian beliefs of demarcation between teacher and student. Food for thought none the less.

Judomad

Roper wrote: »

For my part, the members of my gym call me Barry

ok Roper........:D

ezemska

Alot of the time, especially towards some 'TMA's' ceremony is scorned and laughed at, but not for Muay Thai - why?
Will it boil down to the sport is tougher so no one minds?

Well I've trained in all sorts of martial arts and fighting sports in the last three decades: Kenpo Karate, Wado Ryu Karate, Bujikan Ninjutsu, Vale Tudo, Submission Wrestling, Judo, Taekwondo, Boxing, Kickingboxing (the real kind), Kickboxing (the gay kind) and Muay Thai.

The only ones I've any respect for are: Vale Tudo, Submission Wrestling, Judo, Boxing, Kickboxing (the real kind), and Muay Thai. The reason I respect them is that they actually improve your fighting ability.

Doing kata or forms won't make you a better fighter. Semi or light-contact "fighting" will have minimal effect on making you a better fighter.

If you really want to be a great fighter, you get there by hitting pads hard and most importantly by competing against other great fighters.

Muay Thai isn't laughed at because it produces great fighters... and who laughs at great fighters?

Khannie

There are practical aspects to the Wai Kru / Ram Muay also (edit; I'm not saying that it's not spiritual / superstitious, only that there is also a practical aspect): It's a good oul' stretching session and allows the fighter to focus before beginning. Pads not touching the floor: Keeps dirt off them. You stick your shin on a gritty pad at high speed and you wont forget about it in a hurry.

Personally, I really like the Wai Kru / Ram Muay, but I also like that I don't have to bow to Paul every time I go to train at bridgestone. He has earned my respect, but I'd hate to have to just give it unquestioningly, if that makes any sense?

Judomad

ezemska wrote: »

Well I've trained in all sorts of martial arts and fighting sports in the last three decades: Kenpo Karate, Wado Ryu Karate, Bujikan Ninjutsu, Vale Tudo, Submission Wrestling, Judo, Taekwondo, Boxing, Kickingboxing (the real kind), Kickboxing (the gay kind) and Muay Thai.

The only ones I've any respect for are: Vale Tudo, Submission Wrestling, Judo, Boxing, Kickboxing (the real kind), and Muay Thai. The reason I respect them is that they actually improve your fighting ability.

Doing kata or forms won't make you a better fighter. Semi or light-contact "fighting" will have minimal effect on making you a better fighter.

If you really want to be a great fighter, you get there by hitting pads hard and most importantly by competing against other great fighters.

Muay Thai isn't laughed at because it produces great fighters... and who laughs at great fighters?

again, you still have alot of unanswered questions, before you go calling for what you have and havent got respect for..you know the lads whos sports your dissing are gonna have something to say..answer the questions asked to yourself before you do any more Sh!te talking please.

Charlie3dan

Judomad wrote: »

again, you still have alot of unanswered questions, before you go calling for what you have and havent got respect for..you know the lads whos sports your dissing are gonna have something to say..answer the questions asked to yourself before you do any more Sh!te talking please.

here here!

Khannie

Judomad wrote: »

again, you still have alot of unanswered questions, before you go calling for what you have and havent got respect for..you know the lads whos sports your dissing are gonna have something to say..answer the questions asked to yourself before you do any more Sh!te talking please.

+1. At this stage you're looking very much like a troll Ezemska.

Colm_OReilly

ezemska,

This is Colm the Mod talking here. The lads are right, you're making very inflammatory statements, and not really relevant to the thread.

Please be more relevant and diplomatic.

Colm

Tim_Murphy

The only problem I have with protocol, rituals etc is when it becomes overly important to the people involved, generally the high grades. I saw this happen in my old club over time and the training suffered because of it. When getting ritual right is as important as getting whatever you are meant to be actually training right then there is a problem. It can end up being quite farcical.

I was at a TKD Ireland competition a while back and it was refreshing to see the complete lack of BS that you often see in TKD. I bowed when I was meant to and called people Sir, as that’s generally what’s done, but that was the end of it (bar Mark insisting on me calling him Mr. Leonard :rolleyes:). No BS, nobody ponsing about with lapel badges and no egos.

john kavanagh

Jon wrote: »

I know that some MMA clubs promote themselves as ceremony free, as a marketing strategy which is fine. Ie - 'at our club you'll find no bowing, no salutations, etc etc' some clubs go out of their way to highlight the fact as it's just about the training.

hmmmm sounds like SBG?? anyway its more a statement of fact than a 'marketing strategy'. we're more like a boxing gym than a karate dojo, i just like people to know this before they come down.

colm, tim and barry already put down what i would have said...i've no problem with 'ceremony' etc as long as it doesnt get weird. bowing is no big deal in japan etc...but it can quickly get weird in the west. guys get power trips etc we have ceremonial belt whipping...bit of craic not taken too seriously (unless ur the one gettin whipped )

in saying that i just finished training with (get ready for name drop..) ricardo liborio. it was just us two yet he bowed walking on and off the mat. however he didnt make a big deal about it, just like shaking hands....and he is is 'not bad' (completely smashed me!!!! :eek: ) on the mat. he's not 'hiding' behind his rank with nonsense ritual, gets on the mat and puts it together.

yomchi

Hi John,
I wasn't having a go at SBG, in fact I wasn't having a go at all - btw the new site looks good!

No BS, nobody ponsing about with lapel badges and no egos

Ponsing about with lapel badges unless they were trying to balance the lapel badge on their nose, I'd say its hard to ponce about with one:cool: You stick on your lapel, where it stays there quite happily!

As for the no ego's.. unless you were in a hall full of robots i'd find that hard to believe. The very fact that it was a competition where people pit skill against skill indicates ego's are involved! If the people were completely egoless, ewll then there'd be no competition!
Just because people don't use TKD protocol doesn't mean they are egoless, and just because they use it, doesn't mean they are egotistical - one is not governed by the other. It most cases, its the done thing, and people just use it. Outside of any official setting everybody is just themselves.

Tim_Murphy

Just because people don't use TKD protocol doesn't mean they are egoless, and just because they use it, doesn't mean they are egotistical - one is not governed by the other.

True enough.

It most cases, its the done thing, and people just use it. Outside of any official setting everybody is just themselves.

Agreed, and in this case (i.e. most of the people, most of the time) protocol isn't a problem, and doesn't really have a negative impact. That unfortunately is the best I can say about it. It doesn't really contribute anything position, bar making people feel important, but hey, each to their own. Many people are happy playing along with it and there's nothing wrong with that.

Siamdragon

First of all I want to say I like all Martial Arts and believe all Values should be up held, in what ever Art you choose to practice, I also believe no one has the right to disrespect another Martial Art form as it takes years of commitment and practice to develop once skill and I believe you never stop learning not matter how long you live.
I had a great teach in Thailand , before he died at the age of 84, I remember him telling me after all these years of Training that it was only now that he really started to understand the Art,

MUAYTHAI is my chosen Art as I believe it to be the Best

To truly consider yourself a Muaythai teach one must understand and respect the Art of Muaythai in all its values and traditions, and if someone is to consider themselves a Muaythai Fighter you must perform Wai Kru if not its not real Muaythai
There are two parts to in this ceremony Firstly it is the
Wai Kru the 3 Wai honoring Family, your teacher, your spiritual Guides what ever Religion you believe in, a chance to focus mind body and soul, Showing respect.
Then you perform the Ram Muay the fighting dance it’s a chance to clam once self before battle, gather strength, from the earth, fire and water show people your skills hidden in the dance for those who know what they are looking for can see there skills in foot work balance blocking knee, elbows, and direction as they perform this beautiful but deadly dance.
So long and short of it are no Wai Kru, & Ram Muaythai it’s not really Muaythai as they can not be separated. One lives in the other.
Just like mind and body

SJP.
www.muaythaiireland.com
sitjaipetch@muaythaiireland.com

yomchi

Agreed, and in this case (i.e. most of the people, most of the time) protocol isn't a problem, and doesn't really have a negative impact. That unfortunately is the best I can say about it. It doesn't really contribute anything position, bar making people feel important, but hey, each to their own. Many people are happy playing along with it and there's nothing wrong with that.

There is an excellent point in that. Military custom and Taekwon-Do ceremony/protocol have become tangled throughout the years.
As the founder of TKD was a strict military man - a general in the Korean army, he lived his life in a very militaristic fashion. And as a retired general, as is custom he still maintained his rank and was answered by yes sir, no sir.
When TKD was first trained it was trained in the army, hence the straight lines, lining up by rank and using all the titles that maybe used in a military parade. This is the additional custom that adds to the ego's. General Choi's ways were adopted by other 'Masters' and instuctors and has now become a commonality.
Common courtesy is different, and I like view it as being embodied in the simple bow. Taekwon-Do bowing and shaking hands is just mannerly, just like the guy John Kavanagh mentioned, who bowed leaving the mat.
I know many 6th dans, 5th dans etc who get embarrassed by being called sir, and have often asked 'please don't refer to my as 'Master' or 'sir' - its just me!
So because of this militaristic back ground, some 'instructors' get off on the fact they can be refered to in such a way - it gives them a meaning in what is probably a shallow life!
I remember phoning one Taekwon-Do guy from a WTF style once and he answered the phone by stating his official name and rank :rolleyes::eek:
These are the guys to avoid!

First of all I want to say I like all Martial Arts and believe all Values should be up held, in what ever Art you choose to practice, I also believe no one has the right to disrespect another Martial Art form as it takes years of commitment and practice to develop once skill and I believe you never stop learning not matter how long you live.
I had a great teach in Thailand , before he died at the age of 84, I remember him telling me after all these years of Training that it was only now that he really started to understand the Art,

MUAYTHAI is my chosen Art as I believe it to be the Best

To truly consider yourself a Muaythai teach one must understand and respect the Art of Muaythai in all its values and traditions, and if someone is to consider themselves a Muaythai Fighter you must perform Wai Kru if not its not real Muaythai
There are two parts to in this ceremony Firstly it is the
Wai Kru the 3 Wai honoring Family, your teacher, your spiritual Guides what ever Religion you believe in, a chance to focus mind body and soul, Showing respect.
Then you perform the Ram Muay the fighting dance it’s a chance to clam once self before battle, gather strength, from the earth, fire and water show people your skills hidden in the dance for those who know what they are looking for can see there skills in foot work balance blocking knee, elbows, and direction as they perform this beautiful but deadly dance.
So long and short of it are no Wai Kru, & Ram Muaythai it’s not really Muaythai as they can not be separated. One lives in the other.
Just like mind and body

Great post and answers some of my queries relating to traditional Muay Thai.
Thanks Craig, I think it's Craig anyway !

Tim_Murphy

As the founder of TKD was a strict military man - a general in the Korean army, he lived his life in a very militaristic fashion. And as a retired general, as is custom he still maintained his rank and was answered by yes sir, no sir.
When TKD was first trained it was trained in the army, hence the straight lines, lining up by rank and using all the titles that maybe used in a military parade. This is the additional custom that adds to the ego's. General Choi's ways were adopted by other 'Masters' and instuctors and has now become a commonality.

It's really just part of a broader problem in arts such as TKD. This type of militaristic-ish training encourages ritual, conformity and protocol and by it's nature discourages critical thinking, innovation and a general self awareness of what you are actually doing and why.

So because of this militaristic back ground, some 'instructors' get off on the fact they can be refered to in such a way - it gives them a meaning in what is probably a shallow life!

Without naming names I've come across quite a few people like that. Some in a very obvious way but others in a much more subtle way, they relish having a title and having a bit of power. I'd guess most don't even realise it themselves.

I remember phoning one Taekwon-Do guy from a WTF style once and he answered the phone by stating his official name and rank

Quality! LMAO Don't think I've ever come across anything that ridiculous but I do remember a few years back having a snotty comment thrown my way on another forum by a person I'd known and trained with for years because I called him by his first name and not Mr. So & so. :rolleyes:

mmaireland.com

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

I would put forth that this becomes dangerous when the ritual itself becomes more important than what it's meant to represent.

My vote for most sensible thing said in the forum for quite some time. 100% agreed.

yomchi

I'd guess most don't even realise it themselves

Very true, infact even myself sometimes. I know on my website there is a piece about Taekwon-Do custom, about sir and ma'am and all of that, but I make sure I state the differnce between customary procedure and having real respect for someone. I know the people I have real respect for, these are the people you can phone up and chat to, have a laugh, no demands, talk about training and advise each other - like friends. If one person demands Taekwon-Do protocol like some, well then friendship can never be nurtured - how can it? It dictates one person is lower than the other.
Taekwon-Do ettiquette can and should be used in a humble manner, as a show of courtesy.

I do remember a few years back having a snotty comment thrown my way on another forum by a person I'd known and trained with for years because I called him by his first name and not Mr. So & so

hehe I remember that!

ezemska

First of all I want to say I like all Martial Arts and believe all Values should be up held, in what ever Art you choose to practice, I also believe no one has the right to disrespect another Martial Art form as it takes years of commitment and practice to develop once skill and I believe you never stop learning not matter how long you live.

What exactly is "skill" though? Many of the traditional martial arts are more a form of acrobatics than fighting, and poor acrobatics at that. I've known people who've trained in a particular martial art for more than ten years, and it's really a joke the things they practise. If you spend ten years practising an ineffective slap kick, then it's still an ineffective slap kick. These people get punched around by anyone who's done boxing for a month.

To truly consider yourself a Muaythai teach one must understand and respect the Art of Muaythai in all its values and traditions, and if someone is to consider themselves a Muaythai Fighter you must perform Wai Kru if not its not real Muaythai

Thaiboxing is stand-up fighting, end of story. Scumbags have been beating the crap out of people for millennia with great success, and they don't do a dance beforehand.

There are two parts to in this ceremony Firstly it is the
Wai Kru the 3 Wai honoring Family, your teacher, your spiritual Guides what ever Religion you believe in, a chance to focus mind body and soul, Showing respect.

What if you don't want to honour your family? What if your father's in prison and your mother's a drunk? Also, speaking of religion, Thaiboxing is all about Buddhism; if you got to Thailand I think you'll find they don't mention "whatever religion you believe in".

Then you perform the Ram Muay the fighting dance it’s a chance to clam once self before battle, gather strength, from the earth, fire and water show people your skills hidden in the dance for those who know what they are looking for can see there skills in foot work balance blocking knee, elbows, and direction as they perform this beautiful but deadly dance.
So long and short of it are no Wai Kru, & Ram Muaythai it’s not really Muaythai as they can not be separated. One lives in the other.Just like mind and body

Deadly dance? You're sounding a bit "wax on wax off" there. Mike Tyson had f*** all respect for pretty much anything on this planet yet he was still a great fighter. As for what looks good when you're dancing, well you should see me throw a spinning hook kick it looks deadly, but then ask me to throw one in a fight and I'll probably get knocked out.

Tim_Murphy

If one person demands Taekwon-Do protocol like some, well then friendship can never be nurtured - how can it? It dictates one person is lower than the other.

Exactly. I had that realisation myself when I was talking to a high ranking TKD person, shortly before I stopped training. He was disagreeing with what I was saying, which is fine of course, but I realised that he actually didn't care what I thought on the matter. In his mind, as the senior rank, his opinion was the only one that actually mattered.

hehe I remember that!

I didn't help matters of course by calling him John again in the next post, then again, I wasn't trying to help matters.

Tim_Murphy

If you spend ten years practising an ineffective slap kick, then it's still an ineffective slap kick.

Which is only a problem if they thought they were training it as an effective kick, which they may or may not have been.

ezemska

Which is only a problem if they thought they were training it as an effective kick, which they may or may not have been.

Then let them call themselves an acrobatics club! I mean christ look at the stuff that passes for "martial arts" these days:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8Lqqy4mIunM

Yes, it looks cool, but she'd probably cry if you hit her a dig.

phoenix-MT

Throughout my MT training and fighting ive always bowed to instructors (not just at the gym i was training at, but if we visited other clubs or at fights) as respect to your mentors/instructors etc. Also training partners before you start and at the end of training. It was focused more on when you really get into training, accidents and low blows do happen-therefore it was a way of saying if anything does happen it isnt intentional and apologies in advance.
I also trained in BJJ, where when you entered the gym and after training you shook hands with everyone-same principle.
Ive kept that attitude throughout my club and i respect everyone just as much as they respect me if not more...thats just me. I can see though that it might get to some peoples head, and become more of an ego thing.

SorGan

ezemska

What exactly is "skill" though? Many of the traditional martial arts are more a form of acrobatics than fighting,

and many of the martial arts that train aerobatics simply arnt interested is real world fighting ability...i for one still applaud the skill involved.

What if you don't want to honour your family? What if your father's in prison and your mother's a drunk? Also, speaking of religion, Thaiboxing is all about Buddhism; if you got to Thailand I think you'll find they don't mention "whatever religion you believe in".

Buddhism ain't a religion mate.

ezemska

Buddhism ain't a religion mate.

Kind of like the way Dove isn't a soap?

challengemaster

ezemska wrote: »

Then let them call themselves an acrobatics club! I mean christ look at the stuff that passes for "martial arts" these days:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8Lqqy4mIunM

Flexibility show? I'd still say it'd help in both speed and effectiveness of kicks while sparring. If you're able to kick high with speed, then your kicks to midsection if focused, will be much better again. Force = Mass x Acceleration. Flexibility helps the acceleration part, faster you can get your knee up to X height, faster you can throw a technique, and good flexibility makes it easier & quicker to do so.

Sure, It won't be usefull as much in a real life combat situation - but I wouldn't judge someone like

she'd probably cry if you hit her a dig.

this unless I've enough grounds/proof to say it on, eg. seeing it happen.

Pride Fighter

ezemska wrote: »

Then let them call themselves an acrobatics club! I mean christ look at the stuff that passes for "martial arts" these days:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8Lqqy4mIunM

Yes, it looks cool, but she'd probably cry if you hit her a dig.

You have been nothing but rude and obnoxious since posting on this board, do everyone a favour and shut up!

SorGan

ezemska wrote: »

Kind of like the way Dove isn't a soap?

correct.
it doesn't involve a belief in any god.


..im nit picking i know.:)

Tim_Murphy

correct.
it doesn't involve a belief in any god

Is belief in a specific deity entirely necessary before something can be labelled a religion?

yomchi

According to Buddhist spiritual leaders, for example the Dalai Lama and the Tibetin Karmapa, Buddhism is classed as a non-religion as there is no belief in a creator god.

One definition of religion can be summed up as:
'belief in a divine or superhuman power or powers to be obeyed and worshipped as the creator(s) and ruler(s) of the universe'

or;

'an organized system of faith and worship'

Neither exist in Buddhist philosophy.

Its a massive debate tbh

Tim_Murphy

Its a massive debate tbh

Indeed it is. One that is perhaps not entirely relevant to this thread.

yomchi

I suppose it has its place in relation to Wai Kru as discussed earlier, but that could meander way out of control

Khannie

Jon wrote: »

I suppose it has its place in relation to Wai Kru as discussed earlier, but that could meander way out of control

Yeah, some people wont perform the Wai Kru because they're not Buddhist (recent example in "Contender Asia" by a Muslim lad).

Musashi

Jon and some of the lads probably know I was originally ITK RITA TKD, for the unbelievers that means tha Original and bestest TKD on Earth!

I can remember being told at an Umpires course that as 1-3 Dans we were not to talk to colour belts at Tournaments. The 3rd Dans up were also instructed to not talk to us! Blue blazers don't mis with Green Blazers!

Thankfully I never got the blazer or the attitude? I knew a few "Masters" who were more interested in jewellry and grading fees than teaching, and insisted on being called "Master"

Another guy was of similar rank, we called him "Bisto" and he taught us anything he could, no ego and no BS! We often met him at our instructors house and he'd be the one getting the kettle on.

I don't miss that end of the style, but there were good folks involved and good training to be had. I can't remeber who suggested that TKD and similar don't train daily, run and fight, avoid drink and fatty foods? May have been Ekzema? I know a lot of lads live and train for fighting, even if not in one of the "Approved Stand Up" fighting Arts!

RedRaven

Jon wrote: »

'belief in a divine or superhuman power or powers to be obeyed and worshipped as the creator(s) and ruler(s) of the universe

Somebody mention me...!!!:D:D:D:p;)

yomchi

I can remember being told at an Umpires course that as 1-3 Dans we were not to talk to colour belts at Tournaments

Hi Mush,
I may be able to shed some light on this, however you were at this umpire course, so I maybe wrong.
Officially a B class umpire or 2nd to 3rd dan at a tournament shouldn't mix or fraternise with competitors, this can be construde as non-professional. For example, a corner judge in sparring over sitting down having a natter with a possible competitor that will be in his or her ring, they maybe only catching up, but it doesn't look good, favouritism is on show and may bring protest from other competitors or coaches.
'A' class umpires, 4th degree and over are the one's who over see the running of rings, they generally have more experience at that level, so they officiate at jury level, and over see the B class umpires and make sure everyone is performing well at a judging level, they dismiss any judge that may seem to be bias or just daft, - so chin wagging between them at tournaments is classed as non-professional.

Its really just about keeping tournaments above board and keeping everything running on a professional bases.
When the tournament is over everything is back to 'normal'

Maybe thats what was meant, which is common practice at official ITF tournament,

yomchi

Just to come back to the subject of ceremony, as we've read the wai kru is a very spiritual ceremony paying respect to family, teacher and art. I remember watching Craig O'Flynn fighting Nong Toom, and the ceremony Toom performed included what looked like putting on make up and dressing up and looking pretty.
Where does that come into the whole spiritual aspect and respect? Or was that one he/she made up him/herself?

found it- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBtYxJ14HNk

ezemska

Don't forget the Ram Muay where he mimes out digging a grave and then goes on to piss on it.

ryoishin

the make up thing...... google beautiful boxer, a true story film about a thai boxer who was a man who wanted to be a woman, so fought for money to get a sex change.

I bought that movie by accident. The cover showed it got all sorts of awards for the ring scenes and how people got knocked out in the filming. When i got home i opened the case to see the dvd had a pic of a hand with wraps on and long red finger nails. I thought i bought porn by mistake, so i put it on anyway, savage movie.

yomchi

ryoishin wrote: »

the make up thing...... google beautiful boxer, a true story film about a thai boxer who was a man who wanted to be a woman, so fought for money to get a sex change.

I bought that movie by accident. The cover showed it got all sorts of awards for the ring scenes and how people got knocked out in the filming. When i got home i opened the case to see the dvd had a pic of a hand with wraps on and long red finger nails. I thought i bought porn by mistake, so i put it on anyway, savage movie.

Ay, seen the film, great one too. In the youtube clip he hasn't made the change and is still a male. My question was however on that particular dance, in comparison to more traditional ones.

Nothingcompares

My interpretation of the wai kru and all that is that it's like the Haka. It's a cultural thing you don't have to do unless you feel it is appropriate to do so. Therefore, people can come up with any kind of dance that they like. There isn't someone at the side checking angles of your feet and ****. I really like the wai kru and the music I think it really ads to the athmosphere of thai bouts, really reminds you that it isn't "just kickboxing with elbows".

Colm_OReilly

ezemska,

Take a week break. PM me when you feel you can carry on a decent conversation.

Siamdragon

First of all I think this person Ezemska has a lot of question to answer on previous post first before any of us both entertaining him on his abrupt point of view witch is serious lacking in respect for anyone or any Art he obviously is missing the whole concept of Martial Arts.

I have lived in Thailand for over ten years, Been around some of the worlds best fighters and trainers, we run our own Muaythai Camp in Thailand witch is a Thai camp not a farang one, and we also Run a gym in Ireland, with Thai back and forth all the time.
Wai Kru and the Ram Muay is misunderstood by many which is a real shame, Just like many of you think its associate with religion, Buddhism is not a religion it is a philosophy a way for one to live life, Thailand is mostly a Buddhist Country so it has strong ties to the People there, there are also many Thai Muslims for which Wai Kru & Ram Muaythai plays a big part of there prefight preparation, One of such fighters that some of you might know is the Famous Namsaknoi he does a beautiful Ram Muay, I also know Catholic Thai that perform this pre fight ceremony
As someone asked about the Nong Tomb Ram Muay it is an old Ram Muay,
where it look like Tomb is putting on lipstick and make up your right as she/he has adopted the dance in that way for personalizing it and showmanship, Which Tomb has done very well and I am please for her, but in the original forum of that dance its very similar the warrior is putting on war paint brushing his hair and making himself look good before battle and anyone who knows Thai way its important one looks good in battle it case it your last as most of us would.
As a lot of the dances including my own Ram Muay which I perform is Rama hunts the Golden Deer, which is another old dance which can be seen on the Grand Place walls in Thailand, a lot of the dances have stories attached to them which show meaning and again understanding of Muaythai the Art and tradition not just the Fighting side
Muaythai is as much a Martial Art as it is a Fighting sport, and Just because many people concentrate on the Fighting sport of Muaythai which is fine, One must not disregard the Martial Art Muaythai and its old values and ways.
Like many things if people keep cutting away pieces all the time the true magic and art gets lost and people only end up doing half
Half of anything is not the full Picture.

SJP

sitjaipetch@mauyhaiireland.com
www.muaythaiireland.com

Khannie

Siamdragon wrote: »

One of such fighters that some of you might know is the Famous Namsaknoi he does a beautiful Ram Muay

Here it is.....absolutely class IMO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC6_-xhBv54

crokester

A savage Wai Kru by Yoddecha Sityodtong

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re7C5B0aGsA

footbag_man

ezemska wrote: »

Then let them call themselves an acrobatics club! I mean christ look at the stuff that passes for "martial arts" these days:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8Lqqy4mIunM

Yes, it looks cool, but she'd probably cry if you hit her a dig.

wow that unreal man, what is that called?

here's the best in the world at it ... what ever it is

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=U9pENtaUCHY

yomchi

footbag_man wrote: »

wow that unreal man, what is that called?

here's the best in the world at it ... what ever it is

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=U9pENtaUCHY

Thats easy done. You just heat the floor area up to 500 deg/cel and away you go