Yay or Nay to Lisbon....?

The Lisbon Treaty - A Bad Deal for Ireland: A Bad Deal for Europe - Summary 10. Summary

It is hard to think of any major function of a State which the new European Union would not have if the Lisbon Treaty were to be ratified. The main one would seem to be the power to make its Member States go to war against their will. The Treaty does provide that the EU may go to war while individual Member States may "constructively abstain".

The obligation on the Union to "provide itself with the means necessary to attain its objectives and carry through its policies"(Art. TEC/TFU 269 a), which means raising its "own resources" to finance them, may be regarded as conferring on it wide taxation and revenue-raising powers, although these would require unanimity to exercise. Currrently public expenditure and the tax measures needed to finance it remain overwhelmingly at national state level. This is because such social services as health, education, social security and public housing, as well as defence, policing and public transport - the government functions which cost most money - are still mainly at this level.

However the new European Union would have its own government, with a legislative, executive and judicial arm, its own political President, its own citizens and citizenship, its own human and civil rights code, its own currency, economic policy and revenue, its own international treaty-making powers, foreign policy, foreign minister, diplomatic corps and United Nations voice, its own crime and justice code and Public Prosecutor. It already possesses such normal State symbols as its own flag, anthem, motto and annual official holiday.

The peoples of Europe do not want this kind of highly centralized Federal European Union whose most striking feature is that it is run virtually entirely by committees of politicians, bureaucrats and judges, none of whom are directly elected by the people. The Constitutional Treaty setting it up has already been rejected by the French and the Dutch in 2005. As French President Nicolas Sarkozy has admitted, the Prime Ministers and Presidents have agreed among themselves on no account to have referendums on the Renamed Constitutional Treaty, for that would be rejected everywhere again.

Irish people would be striking a blow for democracy and showing their solidarity with their fellow-Europeans across the EU by resoundingly rejecting the Lisbon Treaty/EU Constitution in this country too and telling the EU's Prime Ministers and Presidents to go back and think again.
As the Former President of Germany Roman Herzog put it:

astrofool wrote: »

I'll be voting yes, because if you vote no, you're a gobsh*te.

More seriously, the EU has been a good thing for Ireland, and the risk being that if we do vote no, and end up outside the EU, we will be well and truly f*cked.

That's the big problem with all of this. People seem to think that we will be kicked out of the European union of we vote no. We will not. The current treaties that keep us members are legally binding and cannot be changed without our vote. That's the beauty of the arrangement. We have to be asked if we want things changed. After this we won't have to be asked.

4Xcut wrote: »

That's the big problem with all of this. People seem to think that we will be kicked out of the European union of we vote no. We will not. The current treaties that keep us members are legally binding and cannot be changed without our vote. That's the beauty of the arrangement. We have to be asked if we want things changed. After this we won't have to be asked.

I don't think people think we will be kicked out of the EU. I'm leaning towards Yes myself but I'm far from decided. One thing that has me doubting is the recent housing crash. Now I know it was exacerbated by the credit crunch, but the governments inability to dampen the flames by lowering interest rates is a direct result of us voting away our powers.

What is the EU all about? Of course its about a United States of Europe and I actually think that for a small country like Ireland that is a good thing (we will have things that our taxes could never cover). But lets be smart and make sure we still retain some power for when sh!t happens to us that nobody else in Europe gives a damn about.

The way I look at it is I wouldn't sign a contract for something I didn't understand or have a full grasp of, so why would I vote positively for this? It's easier to just be negative about it until someone bothers to come along and tell me why I should agree with it and what good it does me and others like me, be they from this country or any other.
I'm not anti-Europe, EU membership has done a lot for the country but I'm very nationalistic and I don't see what I can interpret of the Lisbon Treaty as being very good for small nationalistic countries...

So in short "No"; nearly everyone else I know is doing likewise and I'd imagine anyone who is unsure would do the cautious thing and choose No as well.
The thing about referendums is that it'll be the side that feels more strongly about their choice who ultimately win...in this case the No voters. If you feel adamant about not wanting this passed then that is far more of an incentive than people who'll choose Yes just because it's the government line and the "right thing to do" :rolleyes:...

stevec wrote: »

I'm more interested in someone explaining what's bad in it for us.

Yes me too... I should have included that alongside "good"...

Where's the FACT people? All I see in this thread is "Libertas said.. bleh so it has to be true" , "OMG conspiracy" etc etc. Libertas are complete tools and everything they say is entirely without basis in law or fact.

Lisbon isn't exciting, it isn't radical but it is important. It affects over 500 million people and as a result of legal and political accident Ireland is the only country to vote on it. If you are going to vote then at least consider both sides of the argument.

Now I've studied the thing, I'm about to sit exams about it and I've talked to the leading experts in Europe on it so everything I'm saying is based on what's actually in the damn thing.

So for rest of the flame war if you crib some arguments from Libertas at least be prepared to back them up.

So what's in Lisbon? It's kind of unfortunate that it has to be sold to the Irish people in terms of what's in it for them and them alone. But I guess this kind of response is understandable so I'll try to answer the question - What's in Lisbon for you? Very little is the answer. The Treaty is a technical document that ties up lots of loose ends in Europe. The idea is to help the EU get off its ass and equip it to do things that do benefit you - climate change, food prices are two issues that come to mind where it's being totally inept.

Lisbon will allow Europe to move beyond the debate about itself that has distracted us for years and focus on more important things.

@ rb_ie, the Libertas document is total nonsene and I'll explain why:

fredzer wrote: »

Devil is in the detail and if the Lisbon Treaty is passed the EU is then free to ammend it without any futher referendum... bye bye to Ireland's low corporate tax.

No, just no. This isn't an opinion. The fact is very simple, it's in the text, it's enshrined in law, there is no debate - Lisbon has nothing whatsoever to do with corporate tax. The EU operates, and always has operated, on the basis of delegated powers - much like the United States. It does not have the power to act in an area unless we expressly give it the power to do so. "Competences" is the technical term for these powers, look at the Treaty and you'll see that direct tax isn't there as an exclusive competence.

Europe cannot harmonise corporate tax unless the Irish government agrees, expressly. I'm not suggesting that some countries don't want to change corporate tax, they do but that's nothing new. They haven't been able to because Ireland says no and will continue to say no.

rb_ie wrote: »

For those of you that didn't get this in the door today, from Libertas (libertas.org), and I think it's a good summary of why indeed everyone should vote no. I'm going to type it out as I couldn't find it on the website.

Fianna Fail on Lisbon - and why they're wrong.
"Lisbon WILL make the European Union more democratic" - Ireland loses its commissioner under Lisbon, leaving us with NO voice at the most important table in the EU for five years at a time, and Lisbon creates an unelected President and Foreign Minister of Europe.

Commissioners don't represent their countries, they were never intended to do so and they never have. McCreevy doesn't represent the Irish view of things, he represents the Commission.

The Council of Ministers has a president already, the presidency just rotates, this would fix the term. The President is unelected in same same way that the Taoiseach is unelected - ie. democratic governments that have been elected to represent their people choose him/her. That's how representative democracies work, you live in one.

"Lisbon WILL provide better protection for the rights of citizens of the EU by giving legal status to the EU charter of Fundamental Rights" - The Charter already exists, this Treaty gives the European Courts power to enforce their views on Ireland.

The Charter mainly codifies rights that already exist. It only applies where our government or courts are implementing EU law - the European Courts already "enforce their views" to use a stupidly inappropriate phrase in these clearly defined areas of EU competence. Libertas will be shocked to learn that this hasn't changed since the 1970s.

"Lisbon WILL safeguard Irelands position on taxation" - Ask the European Courts what they think of this one! Irelands tax regime will be subject to the EU's jurisdiction on matters of competition.

See comment above about tax, this quote doesn't even make sense.

"Lisbon WILL guarantee Irelands position on abortion" - The European courts can decide what a human right is. And they can decide whether abortion is a "service" falling under the "free movement of services" directive. That sound like a guarantee to you?

Again, see tax argument. Europe can't impose anything of the sort on Ireland, absurd and false. Abortion (in the context of EU law) is a service - because this was decided in the 1980s. Irrelevant and settled.

This means that the most that can happen is that Ireland gets into trouble if we prevent people traveling to obtain abortions. Remember the X case? The referendum? The Irish people decided that this idea was so unacceptable that we needed a constitutional amendment to prevent it happening.

Clearly this bit is to excite the religious right, seems to have worked.

Lisbon can be amended without a futher referndum - When the government say that Lisbon "protects Irelands veto on Tax", they don't tell you that the veto can be given away under Article 48 of the Treaty, and that you don't have to be asked in a referendum. Do you trust our politicians that much?

Again, welcome to representative democracy, you live in one. Don't like it? Vote for someone else or move to Switzerland. Lisbon certainly can't be amended without government approval and for any changes that are in any way significant the Irish constitution requires a referendum.

Lisbon will be decided on by the European Courts - The text we are voting on is over 500 pages long. It is hard to understand - that's why you keep hearing people arguing over what it means. If we vote for it, these arguments will continue in Brussels. They will eventually have to be decided by the European Courts - who could decide that it means anything - on tax or neutrality. Ask for a clearer text - Vote No.

This one annoys me. There is a difference between being able to understand generally how Europe works and being able to understand the text of the Treaty. Politicians do a crap job of explaining Europe, it has to be said. Europe should be easy for people to understand and there is government FAIL here.

It's an entirely different thing to suggest that the text should be simple - Europe is one of the most ambitious and complicated legal systems ever created that represents and protects the rights of over 500 million people from different cultures with different views.

Do you really want the detailed legal documents that such a union is based on to be simple enough for anyone to understand? Simplicity is not always a good idea. That's what lawyers are for.

Lisbon gives more power to Brussels - Lisbon hands power in over 60 new
areas of decision-making to the European Union.

The list is there for you to see. Vetos are almost never used in Europe and countries hold on to the ones that count - again, see tax, it's going nowhere.

So, for the record, I'm not affiliated with Libertas, I just quoted that from their leaflet (apologies if there's typos, I type quickly and didn't proof read it) as it's quite a clear and concise statement about the Lisbon Treaty, something which we certainly haven't seen from Fianna Fail as of yet.

Clear and concise statement about Lisbon it may be, shame it's an utterly false one. Why should you just accept what it says? Have a look at the referendum commission booklet, at least it's neutral.

stevec wrote:

As the govenment don't seem to give a ****e about educating people about this - I'm voting no.

Sure fianna fail suck but in all fairness, what a stupid way to vote. Yes they should do way more to educate people and they've done f*ck all but this isn't about Irish politics - you're planning to vote down something that affects 500 million people. If you couldn't be arsed finding out about it then abstain. If you're voting no, at leave have a decent reason to do so.

rb_ie wrote: »

However, I have to admit, I don't care about 500 million people, I care about this country and the people in it, be they of Irish birth or otherwise.

Well that's fair enough. So consider what's good for us. Ireland has done exceptionally well out of EU membership over the years. Even if you don't accept this, you might say we've done very well despite it.

In every referendum we've had since we joined in 1973 the No side has said the same thing. We're not talking about just similar argument here, I mean the exact same arguments. European superstate, taxation, army yada yada. Or how about "The EU wants to murder fetuses!" (I swear Dana once said that to me - this is the level on which the no side operates, really a WTF moment).

None of this has come to pass. We've seen reform after reform and this hasn't happened - the only thing that has is that our economy has gone from strength to strength and we have become a respected player on the world stage.

France is opposed to the Treaty, so you can pretty much take a chunk of that 500 million and say they outright don't want the thing.

I was actually in Paris during the vote and was fairly surprised to see what was going on. The French didn't vote on the Constitution, they were pissed at the government like lots of people here. There was so much xenophobia associated with the whole thing and a significant portion of the vote was anti-Turkish, something that again had nothing to do with the Constitution. I know this sounds horribly elitist but most people just didn't have a clue what they were voting for. More government fail.


So why vote for it? Ireland hasn't done badly out of Europe at all, you know I'd say we owe Europe everything. Other member states hold us up as a shining example, hell they're even talking about offering the presidency to Bertie (if only they knew), not more pro-integration politicians. Not bad for a island with 4m people on it.

Europe needs to make some changes to continue working properly with more members so we can continue to benefit. Lisbon makes those changes - nothing terribly exciting but the changes are necessary and positive.

If anything it's a step back from a "United States of Europe" - national governments are more important than ever in the constitutional order.

If it doesn't pass then we are back to square one, we spend the next 10 years talking about what to do next. The stuff that people found objectionable in the Constitution has already been cut out (references to a flag, anthem - the hollow but apparently symbolic stuff) and what we are left with is the stuff that is necessary but that people really shouldn't get excited about. In other words, there is nothing left to agree on.

I'm sick of the debate on the future of Europe as I'm sure you are. It's time to move on and let the EU continue to work the way it was intended to. Our government deals with issues that are best left to us and the EU tackles the problems that we simply can't do anything about on our own.

I don't know what will happen in the long run if we vote no - what will definitely happen is that we'll waste all our efforts talking about the same thing all over again.