Yay or Nay to Lisbon....?

Simplicity

Does any body even understand the question?

I don't

admiralofthefleet

i havent a fecking clue whats in it so ill reserve judgement til the government 'educates' me

The whole EU president thing is scary so it'll be a No from me. I don't want a "United States of Europe."

Only they'll probably throw it back in my face saying "that's not what we wanted so vote again." :rolleyes:

knird evol

The treaty itself is complete twadlle.
Vague, notional, waffley twadle.
Its a broad framework that says eurocrats run the EU as they wish on a day to day basis as always. Since all EU countries (except Ir) just formally ratify it, then all things go on as normal with bureaucrats in central europe running the EU confusion, but as ever we have a confusing referendum on it. We don't have a plebiscite on anything we give a sh1t about, the issues that effect out lives but we have a national vote on this twaddle. Old age pensioneres will vote as always. Should work out alright.

Karoma

Yes means no, so what does it matter?

Rb

Karsini wrote: »

Only they'll probably throw it back in my face saying "that's not what we wanted so vote again." :rolleyes:

If this happens a second time I'd like to see public hangings of every member of our government. It's a f*cking joke that it happened once.

No to the Lisbon Treaty. If anything, it'll prevent Europe enforcing the harmonised company tax rates and retain some of the international investment in this country. It only means bad things for Ireland (as well as the rest of Europe) and even the lack of information being given out by the government disgusts me.

Check out
http://nationalplatform.wordpress.com/?page_id=66
http://www.no2lisbon.ie/ ( though I'm not exactly pro-sinn fein )
http://www.voteno.ie/
http://www.libertas.org/content/view/191/110/

I know there's not a huge amount of information available to the general public, but I swear to f*cking God if this gets a "yes" then I'll have lost all faith in the voters in this country as well as the education system.

The_Minister

rb_ie wrote: »

If this happens a second time I'd like to see public hangings of every member of our government. It's a f*cking joke that it happened once.

OK. Try and open your mind nice (pun intended) and wide. And listen.
The 2nd Nice Treaty was different from the first.
/waits for rb_ie to recover
Europe will not stop or disintegrate because Ireland says No. We are a country of only 4 million, at the back-arse of Europe, Europe will not stop just because we let ourselvesbe scared into voting No by a bunch of Communist, Socialist or Nazi retrobates (which constitutes the vast majority of No-side activists, except Libertas).
So what will happen if we say No, is what happened at the Nice treaty.
They will look at why we said No, and they will try and change the Treaty to accomodate that, if they can.
For instance, neutrality played a big part in the No to Nice campaign.
Therefore, the triple-lock was added, and the people of Ireland voted it through (in far larger numbers then voted No), their fears of having to march to war to save Britain vanquished.
The basic text of the Nice Treaty was maintained because certain changes had to be made for the future expansion of Europe, but those bits that were objected to (normally on spurious grounds) were changed, if they could be, to make it more palatable to the Irish.

rb_ie wrote: »

No to the Lisbon Treaty. If anything, it'll prevent Europe enforcing the harmonised company tax rates and retain some of the international investment in this country.

It doesn't allow the EU to change our tax rate, we can veto that. What they can do is change how tax is calculated, which they can do already so Lisbon doesn't matter one whit on that issue.
But nice scare-mongering there.

rb_ie wrote: »

Check out
http://nationalplatform.wordpress.com/?page_id=66
http://www.no2lisbon.ie/ ( though I'm not exactly pro-sinn fein )
http://www.voteno.ie/
http://www.libertas.org/content/view/191/110/

That is all biased towards the No side, much of it lies.

Rb

The Minister is a PD, lets all boo him together.

Booooo

fredzer

The_Minister wrote: »

That is all biased towards the No side, much of it lies.

Would love to know the truth about this "treaty". Is Lisbon the EU Constitution in disguise, would really like to know how this will benifit Ireland without being told by Bertie and co just to vote yes and no questions.

The_Minister

rb_ie wrote: »

The Minister is a PD, lets all boo him together.

Booooo

/Waves to mob

:)
Sorry 'bout that, just one of my pet hates about Irish politics is people who still maintain that Nice1=Nice2 (in a few months it will probably be people who think EU Constitution = Lisbon Treaty).
Yes, quantitatively, most of the text is the same, but the controversial bits are all in certain small parts of it, and many of them were altered/new bits added in. The majority of both documents is not particularly controversial.

fredzer

The_Minister Sorry 'bout that, just one of my pet hates about Irish politics is people who still maintain that Nice1=Nice2 (in a few months it will probably be people who think EU Constitution = Lisbon Treaty).

Drawing the conclusion that The Lisbon Treaty is The EU Constitution with some ammendments annoys you! Why is that?

Yes, quantitatively, most of the text is the same, but the controversial bits are all in certain small parts of it, and many of them were altered/new bits added in. The majority of both documents is not particularly controversial

Devil is in the detail and if the Lisbon Treaty is passed the EU is then free to ammend it without any futher referendum... bye bye to Ireland's low corporate tax.

Sherifu

Simplicity wrote: »

Does any body even understand the question?

I don't.

Xavi6

What's the Lisbon Treaty?

danniemcq

it's whats given out to good lisbons. like a little sweet to reward them. like dog treaties

Mahatma coat

the european consttitution wouldnt wash with alot of the states, so to avoid Refferenda in most places they have rebranded it as Cosntitution Lite/ Lisbon treaty.

the theory is that once the treaty is ratified they can sling back in all the bits people objected to.

dont you know that the faceless beurocrats in Brussels know whats best for us so we should let them off with it and stop askin annoying questions about freedoms and liberties and the EU taking both

fillmore jive

it's actually ridiculous how little anybody knows about the treaty, yet still can make their mind up on yes or no. i'm in the exact same boat though. nay all the way.

constitutionus

"nay" from me.

mainly because i dont believe in giving away stuff for free. this is actually the first "treaty" that i dont see us getting a single thing out of.

even nice got us 10 accession countries we could get dirt cheap dental care in. and i voted against that one! (didnt like the idea of a two tier europe, which lisbon re enforces).

but do have to confess that i stuck 50quid down on a no vote when ivan yates gave 5 to 1 odd though celtic bookmakers. so theres 300 quid riding on this for me.

oddly enough he's suspended betting on it

Kev_ps3

Its nay from me too.
I think that while europe has been good to us in the past its about time we put the brakes on and stop this gradual drift into a united states of europe. We faught for Independance and now we need to keep it in this country not in Brussles.

oblivious

I am leaning towards no

boneless

As a Socialist and Communist reprobate (yes The_Minister:p) and a very advanced Republican to boot I will be voting a resounding No to the Lisbon Treaty. Apart from the implications for Irish soveriegnty, as far as I can see it is the Capitalist, Imperialist money grabbing right wing reprobates who are pushing it so they can screw us even more.

The_B_Man

From what I'm told, Lisbon is driven towards helping the bigger member states and bigger corporations, and basically screwin over the little guy, ie Ireland.

4Xcut

I'm going to vote no, for several reasons, some vague and abstract and some specific, such as specific amendments to existing agreements on how Europe is run.

Firstly, this is a further step towards a federal Europe. This is something that i do not believe will work. Firstly, because we all speak different languages, so the level of cohesion that they enjoy in the US cannot be achieved. Secondly, I don't feel that a German politician should have even the slightest say what laws we pass here, no more than an Irish one should have any involvement in domestic decisions for Germany.

Secondly, I do not wish to change the constitution of Ireland that says that our "obligations to Europe" will override Irish Law and even Constitution in certain cases.

Thirdly, i do not wish to have a common Foreign Representative. We are capable of representing ourselves on an international stage thank you very much.

Fourth, we will not loose out if we vote no. We might even get properly informed about the treaty. We will not be kicked out of the E.U., we will not loose trade, we will not be punished like bold school-children.

However, I fear that there will be a yes vote. Mainly be cause of the fact that most people will think along these lines;"well, i don't know much about the treaty but our politicians are telling us to vote yes and they always have our best interests at heart, so I'll vote yes". Then they'll go down the pub and complain how dishonest our politicians are just like they do every day.




I won't ask anyone to vote no just because i think its the right way to vote, but please try and read, or search google or just about anything to get some information before you vote. An informed vote is always the right vote, no matter what way you vote.

Crochet

I cant understand why anyone would vote yes to change something when they dont understand the change.

Sam Kade

I will vote no. The Nice treaty was a joke. If the majority vote no and they ask for another vote I will vote no again.

astrofool

I'll be voting yes, because if you vote no, you're a gobsh*te.

More seriously, the EU has been a good thing for Ireland, and the risk being that if we do vote no, and end up outside the EU, we will be well and truly f*cked.

funk-you

Tbh, i'd like to read the whole treaty and try make an informed decision but the government hasn't supplied the full text for me so without the full info i'll vote no.

-Funk

funk-you

astrofool wrote: »

I'll be voting yes, because if you vote no, you're a gobsh*te.

More seriously, the EU has been a good thing for Ireland, and the risk being that if we do vote no, and end up outside the EU, we will be well and truly f*cked.

How far would you go agreeing with Europe on everything just not to be "f'cked"?

-Funk

Dyr

there is no vote, there is no treaty. Move along, nothing to see, the govt will take care of everything

humanji

Crochet wrote: »

I cant understand why anyone would vote yes to change something when they dont understand the change.

It's just as bad as the thousands who will vote no because they don't understand it. If you don't know what you're voting on then don't vote. It's just stupid to assume everything will be ok if you vote a certain way.

astrofool

funk-you wrote: »

How far would you go agreeing with Europe on everything just not to be "f'cked"?

-Funk

I'll treat each vote as it comes, but in this case, the benefits far far outweigh the negatives, and this comes with having actually understood what this treaty is about.

If you're worried, next time there's a vote, give me a pm, and I'll tell you if it's gone too far this time.

And to save the government the trouble of spoon feeding you like a baby, the full text is available at the external links on the wiki page here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon#External_links

or you could follow the Treaty of Lisbon page from the council of the EU:

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/cms3_fo/showPage.asp?id=1296&lang=en&mode=g

Andy-Pandy

Im voting no, simply for the fact that they are being a little underhanded with pushing the yes vote. I dont like the way that the vote is being taken away from the public in all euro countries bar Ireland. And that leaked memo asking for difficult debates on the subject to be held off untill after the vote did it for me.