Worlds best 11 post 1994 World Cup

eZe^ · 25-04-2008 03:02PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

To people who still put Makelele and Vieria in ahead of Keane. Consider that the video of Keane vs France at Lansdowne in Sep 2005 is used by many academies in the UK as an example training video of how to play defensive midfield.

Well why don't YOU consider that Makelele basically invented and perfected the position of DMF in world football.

PHB · 25-04-2008 03:04PM

Raul scored big goals in big games when it mattered, and dragged his teams to victory in the CL and the league.

His medal collection shows how great a player he is, imo better than Shearer by some distance.

Here are some of his honours:

La Liga: (5) : 1995, 1997, 2001, 2003 and 2007
Spanish Super Cup: (3) : 1997, 2001 and 2003
Champions League: (3) : 1998, 2000 and 2002
Intercontinental Cup: (2) : 1998 and 2002

Individual

Pichichi Trophy: : 1999 and 2001
Spanish Player of the Year: : 1996-97 season
UEFA Club Football Best Forward Award: : 2000, 2001 and 2002
Champions League Top Scorer: 1999-2000, 2000-2001
World Player of the Year, Bronze award: 2001
European Footballer of the Year, Silver award: 2001

eZe^ · 25-04-2008 03:06PM

Its almost idiotic that he has never won World Player of the Year. I'm not complaining though, Barca have more World Player of the Years than Madrid by 1, so I get to taunt them with that.

Mr.Nice Guy · 25-04-2008 03:07PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Stoichkov has been mentioned a few times, but I wonder if he played his best football before and during 1994? Hagi stuck around for about 6 years after and I remember him captaining Romania against Italy in Euro 2000. Italy won but Hagi was the best player on the pitch and hit the bar and went close a couple of times creating chances from nothing. I think I'd have him on my bench because he could turn a game in a second. There were questions about his consistency and temperament - but when he wanted it, he could destroy.

Agree with you there. I mainly included Stoichkov for how he captured my imagination during the 94 WC and Hagi was super in that event too. I was close to including Hagi in my team. Both top players.

Now that I think back to the 94 WC there were so many great players on show. Maybe nostalgia is getting the better of me but it doesn't seem to me that we see players announcing themselves on the world stage the way they used to in previous World Cups.

Boggles · 25-04-2008 03:10PM

eZe^ wrote: »

Well why don't YOU consider that Makelele basically invented and perfected the position of DMF in world football.

I have seen you say that a couple of times, it's pure nonsense. The Brazilians are credited with inventing it, Dunga been a prime example.

Makelele perfected how to spend most time in the centre cirle and offer nothing going forward midfielder!

eZe^ · 25-04-2008 03:17PM

Boggles wrote: »

I have seen you say that a couple of times, it's pure nonsense. The Brazilians are credited with inventing it, Dunga been a prime example.

Makelele perfected how to spend most time in the centre cirle and offer nothing going forward midfielder!

Makelele was the greatest DMF ever imo, he perfected the modern defensive midfield role, Dunga wasn't solely employed to screen the back four. Thats enough for me to justify his place ahead of Keane or any other defensive midfielder.

LuckyLloyd · 25-04-2008 03:18PM

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Agree with you there. I mainly included Stoichkov for how he captured my imagination during the 94 WC and Hagi was super in that event too. I was close to including Hagi in my team. Both top players.

Now that I think back to the 94 WC there were so many great players on show. Maybe nostalgia is getting the better of me but it doesn't seem to me that we see players announcing themselves on the world stage the way they used to in previous World Cups.

Well, I think part of it is to do with the fact that today we have much better access to clips / news from other leagues around the world. If there is a Stoichkov like player out there we get to read about him in our Irish Times WC / EC preview pull - out guide and then just need to google him to see what he looks like / get some clips of him in action.

I think it was Phil Babb who talked about the awe he felt in the tunnel at Giants stadium in 94 when the Italians walked up alongside him. Eventhough Babb played at an equivalent level he didn't know half their names and got a bit of stage fright for a few seconds thinking how am I going to match up against these guys - they look so professional!!

LuckyLloyd · 25-04-2008 03:25PM

eZe^ wrote: »

Makelele was the greatest DMF ever imo, he perfected the modern defensive midfield role, Dunga wasn't solely employed to screen the back four. Thats enough for me to justify his place ahead of Keane or any other defensive midfielder.

For the last two or three years of his career Keane sat as a defensive midfielder. And stuffed the likes of Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal (Makelele, Vieria, Gerrard) doing it - as well as being money in the Ireland / France game (seriously folks, it was an incredible performance).

But in Keane's prime when he turned in some of the most breathtaking individual performances ever put in by a European footballer he played box to box and was a destructive energetic presence all over the pitch. Makelele in his prime was very good at protecting the back four and playing a simple pass - but Keane gave you so much more than that. Additionally, he would stand out as a leader and the hungriest player on a team of superstars. And if we are going to have a team of 11 dynamic footballers I think Keane is so much more deserving and fitting to be there than a limited player like Makelele - even if he does those limited things as well as anyone.

eZe^ · 25-04-2008 03:31PM

Ok ok ok, for my team, I needed a player who was SPECIFICALLY just going to defend to screen the back 4, Dunga could yes do this, but Dunga was also partial to getting himself forward every now and then. With Figo, Zidane, Ronaldo, Romario and Guardiola, I needed someone who's sole purpose on the pitch was to hassle the **** out of the oppositions midfield. It was a toss up between Gatusso and Makelele, and since Mak is basically the perfect example of that position, I picked him.

You just have to look at Madrids achievements with him and without him to see his presence. Also, wiki have some nice quotes on the whole Makelele leaving Madrid debacle;

Club president Florentino Pérez infamously poured scorn on Makélélé's footballing abilities and proclaimed that Makélélé would not be missed:

“ We will not miss Makélélé. His technique is average, he lacks the speed and skill to take the ball past opponents, and ninety percent of his distribution either goes backwards or sideways. He wasn't a header of the ball and he rarely passed the ball more than three metres. Younger players will arrive who will cause Makelele to be forgotten. ”

His opinion differred from that of players like Zinedine Zidane, who remarked the following after Makélélé' was sold and Beckham was bought:
“ Why put another layer of gold paint on the Bentley when you are losing the entire engine?”

In his autobiography, published in 2006, McManaman described Makélélé as the most important and yet least appreciated midfielder at Real. Retired former Real Madrid player and captain Fernando Hierro also criticised Perez for both Makélélé's departure and the manner of his departure, saying:
“ I think Claude has this kind of gift - he's been the best player in the team for years but people just don't notice him, don't notice what he does. But you ask anyone at Real Madrid during the years we were talking about and they will tell you he was the best player at Real. We all knew, the players all knew he was the most important. The loss of Makélélé was the beginning of the end for Los Galacticos... You can see that it was also the beginning of a new dawn for Chelsea. He was the base, the key and I think he is the same to Chelsea now."

Also, I never really liked Keane.

LuckyLloyd · 25-04-2008 03:36PM

eZe^ wrote: »

Also, I never really liked Keane.

Ah, should have just said that. I won't waste any more of your time sir - we'll have to agree to disagree.

It is interesting how people are allowing their hatred of certain teams / players cloud their judgment and opinions. A bit sad really. I have two Utd players and no Liverpool players in my 11.

LuckyLloyd · 25-04-2008 03:39PM

Oh and by the way, I'm not for one second questioning how great Makelele was at Real or how good of a player he is. I dunno though, I was in Landsdowne for Ireland / Portugal in June 2001 and it left a mark. Keane wanted it.

DerekD Goldfish · 25-04-2008 03:40PM

Then take these seasons;

98/99 29 goals
99/00 29 goals
00/01 32 goals

Only behind Shearer by 6 goals over there 3 year comparisons. Hardly like that's of a enough difference to not put him up there too.

If you look at league games only a more fair comparison due to blackburn not playing as often in europe
Shearers best 3 year period compared to Rauls
Shearer has 96 in 117 a 82% strike rate
compared to 76 in 107 a 71% strike rate for raul

in retrospect Battigoal and Van Nistelroy probably come close to these stats
but im not going to waste any more work time checking
IMO despite his modest medal haul Shearer was probably the best out and out striker england ever produced and im neither a blackburn or newcastle fan to cloud my judgment

weemcd · 25-04-2008 03:46PM

While i don't think he would start in a lineup with the likes of figo,zidane & co., i'm suprisded Pirlo hasnt been mentioned yet?

2 champions leagues, 1 world cup, 2 uefa super cups, scudetto, italian cup, italian super cup, world club championship, 2006 FIFA World Cup Final Man of the Match, 3 man of the match awards in the 2006 WC.

very decorated player, not even on anyones bench?

ziggy · 25-04-2008 03:50PM

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eZe^ · 25-04-2008 03:53PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It is interesting how people are allowing their hatred of certain teams / players cloud their judgment and opinions. A bit sad really. I have two Utd players and no Liverpool players in my 11.

Well, I won't say I hate him, he was an absolutely fantastic player. Of course emotions cloud my judgement, I have bloody Guardiola in there, I bet alot of people here don't even know who he is.

If I didn't have him there Id have put Redondo, but then it'd almost seem like Im a Blanco fan, and we can't have that now can we.

spiderdan · 25-04-2008 03:54PM

I totally agree that Keane was a better all round player then Makelele but again does anyone else think Redondo was better in his prime! the classic all round DFM! He could have played anywhere in midfield.

From the number of teams posted the majority of people have gone for Keane- Big fan of Pirlo, just too much competition for this position IMO

DerekD Goldfish · 25-04-2008 03:59PM

weemcd wrote: »

While i don't think he would start in a lineup with the likes of figo,zidane & co., i'm suprisded Pirlo hasnt been mentioned yet?

2 champions leagues, 1 world cup, 2 uefa super cups, scudetto, italian cup, italian super cup, world club championship, 2006 FIFA World Cup Final Man of the Match, 3 man of the match awards in the 2006 WC.

very decorated player, not even on anyones bench?

I recon he has missed out for 2 reasons
1) His playmaker DMF role would mean for a balanced team you would need a Keane/Gatusso beside him so it means leaving out an attacking midfeilder winger or striker to facilitate him
2) His form post world cup has been patchy at best

Pepe LeFrits · 25-04-2008 04:04PM

DerekD Goldfish wrote: »

IMO Adams was far superior to Sol in terms of english CB's
He wasnt as fast as Sol put read the game far better was at the top of his game for longer and won more throphies.

Adams certainly beats Campbell in terms of longevity and trophies but at his peak, Campbell was better (although I realise that won’t be a popular opinion!). He was named in the Team of the Tournament at World Cup 98, World Cup 2002 and Euro 2004, and was simply an immense centre-half.

He should be more highly regarded but England's failures, combined with his controversial transfers and unusual off-the-pitch behaviour, have made him a derided figure.

ziggy · 25-04-2008 04:17PM

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LuckyLloyd · 25-04-2008 04:40PM

ziggy wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Close the lid on that can sir!

I think Saipan is relevant, in so much that it meant that Keane did not play an international tournament at the very height of his footballing powers. He was at his very best coming into that tournament. If he had played, and played like he did in the preceding qualification campaign one is left to wonder how far he could have dragged us (obv taking nothing away from Kinsella and Holland who gave some career performances in the competition and worked their socks off in every game).

Because he didn't play though, I wonder if Keane will be mentioned in the conversation of best world 11 outside of Utd / premiership fans in 30 years time - when I think he should definitely be in any conversation along those lines. Having a great world cup or a European championship is key to being remembered long - term. They are such high profile tournaments - and they are written and talked about for years after, that not appearing in one at your peak means you do get forgotten about to an extent. Which is a shame.

Pigman II · 25-04-2008 04:44PM

ziggy wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Do Crash-test-dummies count as models?

LuckyLloyd · 25-04-2008 04:46PM

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

Adams certainly beats Campbell in terms of longevity and trophies but at his peak, Campbell was better (although I realise that won’t be a popular opinion!). He was named in the Team of the Tournament at World Cup 98, World Cup 2002 and Euro 2004, and was simply an immense centre-half.

He should be more highly regarded but England's failures, combined with his controversial transfers and unusual off-the-pitch behaviour, have made him a derided figure.

Campell was an absolute beast (and is still one of the better centre halves in the premiership). And apart from a couple of patchy months towards the end at Arsenal when he seemed to struggle with some personal issues, I think he has been a model professional.

I think he is forgotten about a little because he played for many years at a spurs side that won nothing; then when he won trophies at Arsenal the concentration was on the flowing football that was been played by that side - and the fact that they could defend was kind of ignored to a certain extent.

It is worth noting that Campell put in a heroic performance in the Champions League final against Barcelona.

Seaneh · 25-04-2008 04:52PM

I'm stunned Seedorf isn't in any of these teams...

4 Champions League medals with 3 clubs since 1994...

And a few championships thrown in there too...

ziggy · 25-04-2008 04:55PM

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Seaneh · 25-04-2008 05:00PM

--Cafu----Nesta

Desailly----Maldini seems to be the most common defence.

ROCKMAN · 25-04-2008 05:02PM

This selection is just a personal indulgence, YES I am playing players out of position but in their prime they would have been able to deal with it and still put in a performance. and also I just have to have them in my team.

..................SCHMEICHAEL..................

.......NESTA......DESAILLY.....MALDINI......

.......................KEANE.....................

........................ZIDANE.....................
RONALDINLO.............................BERGKEMP
..........................HAGI.....................

........RONALDO..................RAUL................

tdv · 25-04-2008 05:16PM

I'm suprsised albertini hasn't got more mentions. He was better than Pirlo.

Seaneh · 25-04-2008 05:19PM

tdv wrote: »

I'm suprsised albertini hasn't got more mentions. He was better than Pirlo.

He's on my bench.

And to say he is better than prilo is kinda, I dunno, Harsh.

LuckyLloyd · 25-04-2008 05:32PM

ROCKMAN wrote: »

This selection is just a personal indulgence, YES I am playing players out of position but in their prime they would have been able to deal with it and still put in a performance. and also I just have to have them in my team.

..................SCHMEICHAEL..................

.......NESTA......DESAILLY.....MALDINI......

.......................KEANE.....................

........................ZIDANE.....................
RONALDINLO.............................BERGKEMP
..........................HAGI.....................

........RONALDO..................RAUL................

Just move Hagi to the left; put Raul in the hole; and stick Berkamp up front and everyone is playing in positions that they are somewhat accomplished at.

Seaneh · 25-04-2008 05:44PM

I'd put Bergkamp in the hole behind Raul and Ronaldo TBH...

Worlds best 11 post 1994 World Cup

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