Yay or Nay to Lisbon....?

Rb · 25-04-2008 12:44PM

For those of you that didn't get this in the door today, from Libertas (libertas.org), and I think it's a good summary of why indeed everyone should vote no. I'm going to type it out as I couldn't find it on the website.

Fianna Fail on Lisbon - and why they're wrong.
"Lisbon WILL make the European Union more democratic" - Ireland loses its commissioner under Lisbon, leaving us with NO voice at the most important table in the EU for five years at a time, and Lisbon creates an unelected President and Foreign Minister of Europe.

"Lisbon WILL make the EU institutions more efficient" - Do we want to make it easier for Brussels to smother us in more red tape? Why is this a good thing? Why are we accepting a halving of our vote while bigger states double theirs?"

"Lisbon WILL provide better protection for the rights of citizens of the EU by giving legal status to the EU charter of Fundamental Rights" - The Charter already exists, this Treaty gives the European Courts power to enforce their views on Ireland.

"Lisbon WILL safeguard Irelands position on taxation" - Ask the European Courts what they think of this one! Irelands tax regime will be subject to the EU's jurisdiction on matters of competition.

"Lisbon WILL guarantee Irelands position on abortion" - The European courts can decide what a human right is. And they can decide whether abortion is a "service" falling under the "free movement of services" directive. That sound like a guarantee to you?

"Lisbon WILL enhance the role of our national parliament in EU decision making" - Our National Parliament is controlled by the Government who agree to the decisions in the first place, so that's not relevant, and not true.

Libertas' view on Lisbon and why you should vote No.

Lisbon can be amended without a futher referndum - When the government say that Lisbon "protects Irelands veto on Tax", they don't tell you that the veto can be given away under Article 48 of the Treaty, and that you don't have to be asked in a referendum. Do you trust our politicians that much?

Lisbon will be decided on by the European Courts - The text we are voting on is over 500 pages long. It is hard to understand - that's why you keep hearing people arguing over what it means. If we vote for it, these arguments will continue in Bruseels. They will eventually have to be decided by the European Courts - who could decide that it means anything - on tax or neutrality. Ask for a clearer text - Vote No.

Lisbon has already been rejected - 95% of this text was rejected by people who voted in France and Holland. Now they are being forced to accept it anyway. This used to be called a constitution, now they call it a "reform treaty". It's still the same stuff, and it's still bad for Europe.

Lisbon creates an unelected President of Europe. - You've heard about this one. Some people think the next President of Europe will be Bertie Ahern. All we care about is that there will be a President of Europe lecturing s on how to run our country, and we won't get to vote for him. Let's not go down that road, - Vote no.

Lisbon gives more power to Brussels - Lisbon hands power in over 60 new areas of decision-making to the European Union. Finna Fail think its about 30 new areas - so Libertas don't agree. What we do agree on is that it hands over more power to Brussels, and that we don't get anything back. The EU hasn't had it's account signed off for 13 years because it's become so corrupt. We're doing just fine as we are, why should we hand over all this extra power?

So, for the record, I'm not affiliated with Libertas, I just quoted that from their leaflet (apologies if there's typos, I type quickly and didn't proof read it) as it's quite a clear and concise statement about the Lisbon Treaty, something which we certainly haven't seen from Fianna Fail as of yet. If you read their website, they go much futher in depth about it. There's certainly other good info about, yet again, not provided by our Government. I think the No party should target the largest voters, the elderly, and make it clear to them why this is not a good thing. Simply because, old people are morons who shouldn't be allowed vote ( as it's been proven they can't do it right ) but since they are, they should at least be educated on the thing rather than being allowed to vote based on what some Fianna Failer said to them when the agreed to have a cup of tea with them.

Tigger · 25-04-2008 12:53PM

rb_ie wrote: »

If this happens a second time I'd like to see public hangings of every member of our government. It's a f*cking joke that it happened once.

No to the Lisbon Treaty. If anything, it'll prevent Europe enforcing the harmonised company tax rates and retain some of the international investment in this country. It only means bad things for Ireland (as well as the rest of Europe) and even the lack of information being given out by the government disgusts me.

Check out
http://nationalplatform.wordpress.com/?page_id=66
http://www.no2lisbon.ie/ ( though I'm not exactly pro-sinn fein )
http://www.voteno.ie/
http://www.libertas.org/content/view/191/110/

I know there's not a huge amount of information available to the general public, but I swear to f*cking God if this gets a "yes" then I'll have lost all faith in the voters in this country as well as the education system.

i'm willing to bet €100 that it will go through

Rb · 25-04-2008 12:57PM

Tigger wrote: »

i'm willing to bet €100 that it will go through

Indeed, the elderly are a massive problem in this country.

Tigger · 25-04-2008 01:06PM

in after hours speak we are loosing lots and gaining nothing
we will be totally screwed because we have been using obseenly low company tax to glean americian companies
if that is taken away from us the americians will leave they will take all the jobs to countries that are either cheaper like poland or have better infra structure like botswana

we will have less votes because we have too many at the moment
we have the same number of votes as germany at the minute
we will have like a 16th of whta they have soon that would be fair but were irish why would we want to be on leve pegging is the whole point that we are ahead and should stay ahead

we will loose the right to veto so what ever silly rule the eu brings in we will have to obey
sweeden has outlawed kellogs cerals that are fortified with b vitiams

they want to make it that online traders have to comply with the laws of all 27 member countries rather than just domestic rules

now can some one tell me this if the irish constitution is workig why change it
we are the only ones in europe still free enough to decide this dosent go ahead
if they wanna change it make them at least bribe us but i see nothing but nothing that will help me or ye about this treaty

some one poist out something rather that its fair
it'd be rude
they've done loads for us
or
wel'll be sorry

anybody

astrofool · 25-04-2008 01:07PM

I've seen Libertas' arguments against be torn apart time and time again, unless they can come up with a few new arguments, all they amount to is spreading FUD.

I thought this guy gave a nice sum up on the treaty:

http://egoeccentric.blogspot.com/2008/04/egoeccentrics-idiots-guide-to-lisbon.html

Tigger · 25-04-2008 01:09PM

rb_ie wrote: »

Indeed, the elderly are a massive problem in this country.

they will vote it through tho
you knbow it and i know it

25-04-2008 01:13PM

By far the worst thing about this treaty is that it ties successive EU administrations to an economic model. And one which in my opinion is very Thatcherite.
Imagine if the Irish Constitution tied the hands of all the following governments in setting economic policy? Where would we be now?
It is very important for governments to be able to change tack when the going is bad and vice versa. Lisbon will not allow that.

And a document which mentions the word Market ten times more than the word Society is a document written by business people for business people.

VOTE NO

And if anyone makes the argument that the EU has been good to us therefore we must vote yes is whoring our sovereignty,shame on you.

Tigger · 25-04-2008 01:13PM

astrofool wrote: »

I've seen Libertas' arguments against be torn apart time and time again, unless they can come up with a few new arguments, all they amount to is spreading FUD.

I thought this guy gave a nice sum up on the treaty:

http://egoeccentric.blogspot.com/2008/04/egoeccentrics-idiots-guide-to-lisbon.html

thats a artistic weanna be european there were irish we like curry sauce and cushy jobs and phoning in sick and having the right to vote 16 times more than a german and driving with no tax and smoking on the bus and corn flakes

tell me something that will help me
or you

Tigger · 25-04-2008 01:15PM

Deleted User wrote: »

By far the worst thing about this treaty is that it ties successive EU administrations to an economic model. And one which in my opinion is very Thatcherite.
Imagine if the Irish Constitution tied the hands of all the following governments in setting economic policy? Where would we be now?
It is very important for governments to be able to change tack when the going is bad and vice versa. Lisbon will not allow that.

And a document which mentions the word Market ten times more than the word Society is a document written by business people for business people.

VOTE NO

And if anyone makes the argument that the EU has been good to us therefore we must vote yes is whoring our sovereignty,shame on you.

I HAVE STOLZ YOUR ELLOQUENZZ

faceman · 25-04-2008 01:16PM

Rb, some of those comments you quoted are completely incorrect.

Im not a fianna fail fan at all, ive read much documentation on the treaty (albeit not the full treaty itself) so i would vote yes. The treaty is good for the EU.

However my disappointment at how poor communication and explanation has been to the irish public has me steering toward a no vote.

Tigger · 25-04-2008 01:18PM

faceman wrote: »

Rb, some of those comments you quoted are completely incorrect.

er care to enlighten the rest of us?

Gegerty · 25-04-2008 01:26PM

Tigger wrote: »

now can some one tell me this if the irish constitution is workig why change it

The Irish constitution is outdated.

Irish people have always been afraid of change. Cherry coke and BBQ monster munch never stood a chance in this country

Tigger · 25-04-2008 01:29PM

Gegerty wrote: »

The Irish constitution is outdated.

Irish people have always been afraid of change. Cherry coke and BBQ monster munch never stood a chance in this country

monster munch should have the cyclops on the back
that is all

Blazer · 25-04-2008 01:31PM

4Xcut wrote: »

I'm going to vote no, for several reasons, some vague and abstract and some specific, such as specific amendments to existing agreements on how Europe is run.

Firstly, this is a further step towards a federal Europe. This is something that i do not believe will work. Firstly, because we all speak different languages, so the level of cohesion that they enjoy in the US cannot be achieved. Secondly, I don't feel that a German politician should have even the slightest say what laws we pass here, no more than an Irish one should have any involvement in domestic decisions for Germany.

Secondly, I do not wish to change the constitution of Ireland that says that our "obligations to Europe" will override Irish Law and even Constitution in certain cases.

Thirdly, i do not wish to have a common Foreign Representative. We are capable of representing ourselves on an international stage thank you very much.

Fourth, we will not loose out if we vote no. We might even get properly informed about the treaty. We will not be kicked out of the E.U., we will not loose trade, we will not be punished like bold school-children.

However, I fear that there will be a yes vote. Mainly be cause of the fact that most people will think along these lines;"well, i don't know much about the treaty but our politicians are telling us to vote yes and they always have our best interests at heart, so I'll vote yes". Then they'll go down the pub and complain how dishonest our politicians are just like they do every day.

I won't ask anyone to vote no just because i think its the right way to vote, but please try and read, or search google or just about anything to get some information before you vote. An informed vote is always the right vote, no matter what way you vote.

Exactly my thoughts...I'm voting NO..

gamer · 25-04-2008 01:32PM

1ST of all its an riduculous cos its written in legalese only understandable by bureaucrats and lawyers ,so if an english translation is not sent out to all households explain its main provisions in plain english,if a 14year old kid can,t understand it we should vote no.2nd it dilutes ,or neutralises the right of the government to set ,our own tax rates,the only thing keeping the economy going
is our low corporate tax rates ,we are an island we certainly cant keep competitive with cheap fast rail links like france /germany.the west of eire has lost most direct routes to london by air.
I say vote no.

faceman · 25-04-2008 01:33PM

Tigger wrote: »

er care to enlighten the rest of us?

I dont need to, read the bleedin documentation!

Perhaps RB can back up those comments referencing where in the treaty those points are valid.

ART6 · 25-04-2008 01:44PM

Everything I have read about the Treaty makes me very uncomfortable indeed. Naturally, if democratic government is sidelined and all power is placed in the hands of civil servants, whether in Brussels or anywhere else, the administration becomes much easier. If you don't have to answer to anyone you can't be criticised or called to account for your actions. Therefore, in my view, irrespective of the detail of the Treaty, if it goes through the democracy in Europe (and Ireland) will be a thing of the past.

Being pressurised by our government to vote "yes" doesn't convince me at all, since all too often in recent years we have been given evidence of the standard of honesty among our elected representatives. If Bertie & co can't convince the tribunal that his tax and financial affairs are in order, then he ain't going to convince me about Lisbon either.

And finally, as someone else pointed out here, we are being asked to vote in favour of giving away the democracy that generations of Irish fought for to an organisation that has failed its annual audit every year for ten years. If my company did that for even one year I and other directors would be in very serious trouble indeed. How many of the unelected are in such trouble? None. No wonder Bertie wants us to join them.:D

Duiske · 25-04-2008 01:44PM

rb_ie wrote: »

I think the No party should target the largest voters, the elderly, and make it clear to them why this is not a good thing. Simply because, old people are morons who shouldn't be allowed vote ( as it's been proven they can't do it right ) but since they are, they should at least be educated on the thing rather than being allowed to vote based on what some Fianna Failer said to them when the agreed to have a cup of tea with them.

My dad is 81, and to be honest he has a far better grasp of what the text of the treaty boils down too than I have. He reckons the text "as stated" is grand, except for one thing. He sees the Lisbon Treaty as a contract, ie, if the majority of people vote yes to this treaty then they agree to be bound by the text of the treaty. However, he can't see how anyone can agree to a contract where the terms of that contract can be changed at a later date by one party, without consultation with the other party involved.
For that reason, and unless he is convinced otherwise before 12th June, he will be voting No, as will I.

rb_ie, are we to understand from your comment above that you will cease to be an active voter at the age of 65, as it will only be then that you become a moron ?

Tigger · 25-04-2008 01:52PM

faceman wrote: »

I dont need to, read the bleedin documentation!

Perhaps RB can back up those comments referencing where in the treaty those points are valid.

i have read it but you can just say (well you can but its pointless) that some one is wrong but not where
ou want for him to debate himself
its tiring enough reading the post as it is

Rb · 25-04-2008 01:56PM

Duiske wrote: »

My dad is 81, and to be honest he has a far better grasp of what the text of the treaty boils down too than I have. He reckons the text "as stated" is grand, except for one thing. He sees the Lisbon Treaty as a contract, ie, if the majority of people vote yes to this treaty then they agree to be bound by the text of the treaty. However, he can't see how anyone can agree to a contract where the terms of that contract can be changed at a later date by one party, without consultation with the other party involved.
For that reason, and unless he is convinced otherwise before 12th June, he will be voting No, as will I.

rb_ie, are we to understand from your comment above that you will cease to be an active voter at the age of 65, as it will only be then that you become a moron ?

Well fair play to him, he's went through the trouble to educate himself on it and it seems to have paid off.

I'll quit voting the minute I decide which way I'm voting before I've read anything on it, or I decide which was I'm voting based on what my local FF rep said to me when he "dropped by" for a "friendly" cup of tea one day.

I wouldn't consider anyone who's 65 to be "elderly" btw.

nomorebadtown · 25-04-2008 02:13PM

and its a no from me

Gegerty · 25-04-2008 02:23PM

Duiske wrote: »

However, he can't see how anyone can agree to a contract where the terms of that contract can be changed at a later date by one party, without consultation with the other party involved.

Excellent point. If you can back this up with facts you'll have a Yes voter converted to the No camp :-)

po0k · 25-04-2008 02:38PM

So where's the article stating "We're consolidating our continental assets in preparation for the economic war with the East"?

BKtje · 25-04-2008 02:46PM

I still haven't decided but if im honest the way people are going on in this thread would have me leaning yes rather than no.

things like

who shouldn't be allowed vote ( as it's been proven they can't do it right )

piss me off so much. You feel your vote is better/more important than anyone elses? While the elderly would probably vote differently from me, i'm not gonna blame them for "getting it wrong". It's is their vote and if they choose to use it then fair play. It would be up to us to try and educate them.

The whole "shouldn't be allowed to vote" has a very American feel to it where they struck numerous people off the ballot because they disagreed with what the people in power wanted.

I have read some dodgy information in this thread or partial truths (or at least i feel they are from my study) and while i agree with the conclusion in some cases i just hate to see things being twisted to suit someones purpose.

Overall i was hoping this would modernise Ireland in some shape or form as i do still this country can be very backwards but at this stage i'm not sure.

Edit:

However, he can't see how anyone can agree to a contract where the terms of that contract can be changed at a later date by one party, without consultation with the other party involved.

That would be the best point in this entire thread i feel.

Rb · 25-04-2008 03:03PM

So you'd vote yes in an effort to píss me off as a result of me píssing you off with something I said on an internet forum?

You shouldn't be allowed vote tbh.

Tigger · 25-04-2008 03:11PM

rb_ie wrote: »

So you'd vote yes in an effort to píss me off as a result of me píssing you off with something I said on an internet forum?

You shouldn't be allowed vote tbh.

will you stop that

rb_ie acually wants the treaty to go through
don't give him the satisfaction

to paraphrase Terry a vote for the treaty is a vote for rb_ie

skywalker · 25-04-2008 03:22PM

rb_ie wrote: »

If this happens a second time I'd like to see public hangings of every member of our government. It's a f*cking joke that it happened once.

No to the Lisbon Treaty. If anything, it'll prevent Europe enforcing the harmonised company tax rates and retain some of the international investment in this country. It only means bad things for Ireland (as well as the rest of Europe) and even the lack of information being given out by the government disgusts me.

Check out
http://nationalplatform.wordpress.com/?page_id=66
http://www.no2lisbon.ie/ ( though I'm not exactly pro-sinn fein )
http://www.voteno.ie/
http://www.libertas.org/content/view/191/110/

I know there's not a huge amount of information available to the general public, but I swear to f*cking God if this gets a "yes" then I'll have lost all faith in the voters in this country as well as the education system.

100% agree on the first point.

I know a little about the treaty but not enough. So I went to that voteno.ie website, seeking a clear cut explanation of what this treaty entails. On the homepage they have a thumbnail of a pamphlet outlining their reasons to vote no, but when you click on it your greated with a page outlining how you should send off a cheque or postal order to get it! :rolleyes: For crying out loud!

Ive been to the libertas site before & found it way too confusing & long winded. Why isnt there a 1 paragraph summary on this anywhere? If they cant break it down to that level then how on earth can they expect people to vote on it?

As of right now Im voting no mainly in protest at the lack of information the govt is putting out there about this treaty. Whenever any govt asks you to vote for something without bothering to explain what it is, then something is wrong.

Rb · 25-04-2008 03:27PM

skywalker wrote: »

Ive been to the libertas site before & found it way too confusing & long winded. Why isnt there a 1 paragraph summary on this anywhere?

http://www.libertas.org/content/view/202/122/ ?

skywalker wrote:

Whenever any govt asks you to vote for something without bothering to explain what it is, then something is wrong.

100% agree.

BKtje · 25-04-2008 03:33PM

So you'd vote yes in an effort to píss me off as a result of me píssing you off with something I said on an internet forum?

huh? I don't really care if your pissed off or not and not once did i say i'd vote yes just to piss off people like you. I said that if this thread is what i was going to base my decision from(after hours i know but i wouldnt be surprised if some people do base a final decesion on stuff said here) then your methods would have me leaning the other way as you are coming accross badly/elitist.

The other post that i quoted is really how I feel you should be going about trying to convince others to vote no (if thats what you're trying to do) or open up some kind of debate but again this is after hours so never mind, regarding this topic i'll just pass through.

funk-you · 25-04-2008 03:33PM

astrofool wrote: »

I'll treat each vote as it comes, but in this case, the benefits far far outweigh the negatives, and this comes with having actually understood what this treaty is about.

If you're worried, next time there's a vote, give me a pm, and I'll tell you if it's gone too far this time.

And to save the government the trouble of spoon feeding you like a baby, the full text is available at the external links on the wiki page here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon#External_links

or you could follow the Treaty of Lisbon page from the council of the EU:

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/cms3_fo/showPage.asp?id=1296&lang=en&mode=g

It was just a question, no need to be a condescending.....

EDIT: for something as important as a referendum shouldn't the government supply the people with the balanced info to form an opion on?

-Funk

Yay or Nay to Lisbon....?

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