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RTE Radio 1 to leave MW in March

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Why?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,716 ✭✭✭zilog_jones


    many elderly people did not have long wave radios
    Again, where are they getting this from?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 858 ✭✭✭marclt


    Again, where are they getting this from?

    Probably some rough research.

    I did some comparing of the MW/LW services this morning. LW has for a while suffered from a poor processing quality. It sounds a slightly hollow and not quite right. MW has always been alot more 'comfy' sounding, warmer even. Perhaps, they'll spend some more time tweaking the processing or move the MW processor to the LW site now.

    Upping that power is a must. The Isle of Man don't appear to be using their 279 LW allocation - they've been talking about it for years. Why dont they just apply to use that instead. 279 was supposed to have good coverage across UK and Ireland.

    I used to live in Bristol and MW was far superior to LW there during the day. Both suffered badly at night. Perhaps RTE should look at going on DAB in the UK... there are a few spare slots after all????


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,716 ✭✭✭zilog_jones


    It's unavoidable that LW is going to sound worse than MW, due to the lower frequency and stuff.

    Actually, what kind of freqency response and SNR does one expect to get from AM MW and LW stations, and Band II FM? I know what's generally expected from CDs, cassettes, LPs etc, but never knew what radio is like in comparison...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭watty


    AM is about 7kHz on LW and 8 or 9KHz on MW. Varies from Country to Country. I don't think USA has ANY LW.

    FM Audio on TV used to be 12KHz.

    FM Mono Audio or L+R on Radio about 15Khz. Then pilot tone at 19KHz. 15KHz worth of L-R is modulated on a 38KHz subcarrier using DSBSC (hence the 19KHz pilot to assist PLL decoder).

    CD is 44.1KHz sampling so it's broken if any frequency above 22.05Khz gets in. Real CD capture is tending to be 16KHz to 20KHz depending on studio/equipment/date etc.

    Audio Cassette is about 10kHz, maybe 16KHz on some high end units. Reel to reel was 6KHz to 20KHz depending on make/model and tape speed (1&7/8th ips to 15ips)

    Basic VHS audio is 1/2 cassette speed! It's terrible. Barely 6kHz and very noisy. Stereo version VERY noisy. HiFi VHS uses FM helical Track and does about 20KHz, can be CD quality. There is NO SUCH THING as NICAM VHS (just VHS with HiFi FM recording and a NICAM decoder in the tuner). I don't know off hand the frequency spec of NICAM.

    LOw frequency cut off is between 20Hz and 300Hz depending on system. On 3Khz systems it actually improves speech readibility to limit the LF to 300Hz.



    LPs 8KHz to 22KHz depending how many times played. One play reduces it to < 16KHz typically.

    I think AM audio on old 405Line TV was 10KHz, not sure.

    SSB audio and NBFM audio on Communications, walkie talkies, etc.. 2.3KHz to 3KHz
    Telephone 3KHz (ISDN and most VOIP codecs samples at 8KHz so in theory does up to 4KHz, but really for 3KHz, and relaxed filter slope).

    SNR is worse on LW than MW due to line scan of CRT of TV and Computers. Plasma & LCD make LW, MW, SW and even VHF worse. But not as bad for LW. Flatscreen TVs can vary by 60dB in the amount of interference they make.

    Other culprits that will destroy LW reception are dimmers and CFLs, but some CFLs are not so bad.


    SNR is much better on FM-VHF than cassette, which is better than MW. Of course signal strength applies, as signal degrades there is a point where AM performs better than same level of FM. FM SNR "falls off a cliff" though not as badly as DAB or Digital Tv as signal get weak.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,757 ✭✭✭lawhec


    NICAM uses a bit rate of 728kbps with Musicam encoding at a sample rate of 32kHz.

    LW broadcast radio does not exist outside of ITU region 1, confined to Europe, North Africa, Mongolia and Russia (I believe there are Middle East allocations but aren't used.)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,716 ✭✭✭zilog_jones


    watty wrote: »
    I don't think USA has ANY LW.
    Yeah not for commercial use anyway. 160-190kHz is used for amateur/experimental radio and 190-435 for beacons according to Wikipedia.
    Audio Cassette is about 10kHz, maybe 16KHz on some high end units.
    My recent hi-fi says 50-13000Hz with normal Type I tapes, but that's probably being optimistic. I think high-quality decks and metal tapes can reach 20kHz but you don't really see either of those these days...
    HiFi VHS uses FM helical Track and does about 20KHz, can be CD quality.
    VHS tapes could be used as a cheap way of recording CD quality PCM audio too (I assume using all the video bandwidth). I've seen what looked like such equipment piled in a dark corner in a music technology lab in college - of course they use Mac's for recording there these days :)
    SNR is worse on LW than MW due to line scan of CRT of TV and Computers. Plasma & LCD make LW, MW, SW and even VHF worse. But not as bad for LW. Flatscreen TVs can vary by 60dB in the amount of interference they make.
    I've noticed our recent LCD TV does very bad things indeed to shortwave radio reception, even at the other end of the house :(
    FM SNR "falls off a cliff" though not as badly as DAB or Digital Tv as signal get weak.
    Yeah it's quite ironic how "digital" the reception of DVB is - you either get a picture or you don't! I always wondered how they didn't try to make signal degredation more graceful, e.g. dropping colour components similar to how you lose PAL colour reception (although I don't know if MPEG video can work like that, and know that PAL colour is on a separate sub-carrier and all that). I still have yet to experience the glorious 20 year old technology that is DAB...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 878 ✭✭✭More Music


    marclt wrote: »
    .....Upping that power is a must. The Isle of Man don't appear to be using their 279 LW allocation - they've been talking about it for years.......QUOTE]

    Not an option. 252 is allocated 500kW for daytime which is good. The bad?? They bought a new transmitter lately (it is DRM ready) but it's output is 300kW max. Not sure if it runs at full power though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,440 ✭✭✭Antenna


    Both 567kHz and 729kHz were switched off this afternoon (Monday 31/March)

    They had been broadcasting the retuning/closure info looping announcement for the past 7 days

    I left something recording the 729k (Cork) all day :) knowing it was going off today. The audio ended at about 3:00 PM (safe to assume the same on 567). Carrier switched off at about 3:15PM


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,733 ✭✭✭Zaphod


    Irish Times - 01/04/2008
    An Irishman's Diary

    Henry Kelly

    THE PHOTOGRAPH in The Irish Times last week of broadcaster Brendan Balfe marking the end of medium wave transmission on RTÉ brought back those types of memories that you think you've forgotten and probably had until something sparks the brain into life.

    Who now remembers Radio Éireann, never mind 2RN from days when the radio was the wireless? Then, an outside broadcast consisted of a reporter with one of the heaviest tape-recorders man has ever carried - the L2 - which looked like something a small army would use on manoeuvres for sending un-hearable messages on crackly lines, when a race-course tic-tac man would have sent the same message in a few seconds.

    I spent many happy Saturday evenings in the late 1960s working on Bunny Carr's Later Than Late on Radio Éireann. We followed The Late Late Show and the plan was to pick up where Gay Byrne had left off. One night sticks in my memory. Gay had discussed communism. Bunny sent me out to vox pop, that is, ask people in the street their views on communism.

    I went out three, maybe four times, embarrassingly to the same group of men gathered in the gloom near the GPO. Reason for repeat visits? The men were articulate, had fascinating memories - including one who had known James Connolly. Trouble was, the L2 never told you, never gave a clue as to when the batteries were going to give out!

    Semi-professional memories, however, are overwhelmed by the memories of Radio Éireann. If you are 55 or over surely you remember some of the great programmes? Who can forget The Foley Family, The Kennedys of Castlerosse, Living With Lynch.

    And what of Take The Floor with Din Joe, a variety show which included Rory O'Connor tap-dancing on the wireless? And no Sunday afternoon was complete without Micheál O'Hehir and his seminal broadcasts from Croke Park? Then along came Terry Wogan and Hospitals Requests which marked the great man's first steps to a glittering career in broadcasting.

    George Burrows, long gone, was a sub-editor on The Irish Times when I joined as a baby reporter in 1968. He was also among the regular contributors to Topical Talk, broadcast at lunchtime just after the news where his enthusiasm for the wildlife of this country came through with every word. The late Michael Dillon, the finest agricultural correspondent you could hope to meet, managed to do his cattle market reports for Radio Éireann and later RTÉ, and then arrive at The Irish Times to write - and all without removing his hat or coat.

    For many listeners from those days, I suspect an abiding memory will be the presence of the Droitwich whistle - a piercing sound that would make you jump from your seat. It lasted only a few seconds, but the added anxiety was you never knew when it was going to happen again. It was the most annoying thing about trying to listen to the wireless in the 1950s and 1960s. Most families, my own included, had a big old-fashioned wireless: a Bush was a popular one. They had tuning aids in-built: ours had a glass eye.

    It was green and had two black halves , one on either side of the eye. As you got closer to the station you required the black halves disappeared until the green eye suggested you were spot on. Sneaking down stairs at am to listen to the BBC broadcasting the cricket from Australia, I'd eventually give up on the green eye and take whatever the signal sent me. Thus I managed to get Frank Tyson's six wickets for 16 runs against Australia and the late Archbishop David Shepherd's century in perfect sound but from memory, that was about it in a five-match Test series!

    Droitwich is a spa town in Worcestershire which has had a noble history in British broadcasting. The war ended on May 8th, 1945. In the previous year the BBC's director-general had promised that within 90 days of Victory in Europe, peace-time broadcasting would be restored. On July 29th, 1945 regional programmes were resumed, the original National Programme was replaced by the Light Programme and carried by Droitwich Long Wave on 1500 metres and 200 kilohertz. An additional service started the following year, called The Third Programme.

    This was broadcast from Droitwich on 583 kilohertz using a transmitter released from wartime service. But. . . but. . . but. The Droitwich transmitter had to run on low power because the frequency was shared by a station in Latvia. That one was unstable, causing it to deviate from the agreed frequency. It was this deviation which caused what wireless buffs call a heterdoyne whistle to chip into the Droitwich signal and ruin Radio Éireann's programmes!

    The BBC Monitoring Service, then at Tatsfield in Surrey and now in Caversham in Berkshire, swung into action. Instructions were relayed to Droitwich to " steer" a specially designed piece of kit to the same frequency as Latvia and though the change didn't get rid of the whistle totally, in most cases it reduced it to insignificance. It didn't require listeners to re-tune their sets but it had the bizarre effect, with the whistle almost gone, of letting Radio Éireann listeners every now and then hear Latvian Radio.

    Interference from foreign stations is always worse during the hours of darkness and in the days I'm referring to the BBC Third Programme went on the air only in the evenings, so the problem was even worse. Eventually Latvia moved to another frequency and the situation resolved itself.

    One final memory. I was brought up in Athlone in Co. Wesmeath where there was a radio transmitter for Radio Éireann.

    As a child I really thought it was great that my town was on the tuning dial along with Hilversum (wherever that was!) and, of course, Dublin. The transmitter was a few miles walk from where we lived and my dad used to tease me when we walked out there that if I listened really, really carefully I could hear Radio Éireann. . . even without a wireless. I never heard any programmes, no matter how hard I tried. . . just the Droitwich Whistle.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,733 ✭✭✭Zaphod


    Irish Times 15.04.08
    RTÉ says listeners easily made medium wave move

    ALISON HEALY

    RTÉ'S DECISION to shut down its medium-wave service appears to have gone more smoothly than expected as it has only received requests for 50 free or half-price radios from the public.

    "There was a very low level of response," said Sarah Martin, RTÉ senior press officer. The station had originally planned to provide free long-wave radios for the most needy people and to also provide half-price vouchers for Roberts radios. Because of the low level of response, RTÉ provided free radios to all 50 applicants.

    "We're really getting the impression that our listeners have made the switch comfortably to FM and other new ways of listening to radio such as internet, mobile phone, via television and the DAB [ digital audio broadcasting] trials," Ms Martin said.

    She said the station had also played looped announcements after the closure, telling listeners how to retune and had placed notices in the RTÉ Guide .

    Ms Martin said the station received about 35 calls last week inquiring about switching from the medium-wave service and fewer than 200 calls in the week after the closure.

    "We've had very few calls from UK listeners," she said.

    RTÉ was criticised by politicians and groups representing the elderly and emigrants when news emerged that it was to close the medium-wave service.

    They said it would deprive elderly people who only had medium-wave radios, people living in areas with poor FM coverage, and the Irish living in Britain, of a radio service.

    RTÉ said it shut down the service because the audience was very small. The closure will save the national broadcaster €1.5 million a year.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭watty


    So how many would complain if they closed the LW & VHF/FM and DAB too? :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,127 ✭✭✭Digifriendly


    watty wrote: »
    So how many would complain if they closed the LW & VHF/FM and DAB too? :)

    Quite a lot I guess. Loss of MW is no great change for vast majority of listeners due to availability of LW through most of British Isles. Only for those who have no LW and for whom FM is difficult to pick up and who have no internet access is there a problem and this can't amount to that many surely!?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Sorry I forgot the joke tags.


    The fact is the number that complain direct is usually tip of iceberg in this country. You could have 10,000 complain to each other and more phoning a high profile radio show than complaining about an issue directly.

    Activists that convince their TD seem to get the most mileage on any subject. (e.g. so called Deflectors or Phone Masts).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71 ✭✭BHG


    Only for those who have no LW and for whom FM is difficult to pick up and who have no internet access is there a problem and this can't amount to that many surely!?

    i disagree, lets say you have LW, in the car, and you live not so far away (in LW terms) like South Wales, its winter 4pm getting dark, and on 252LW 60% of the audio is 252 ALGERIA (Tipaza). The fact is nobody knows the number. UK listeners of RTE do not feature in the JNLR in Ireland or in the RAJAR measurement in the UK, like my listening to BBC R5L (yesterday) doesn't count. nor does the R5L listeners in Leitrim and all over the country (Ireland) that listen in to R5L sports/news coverage. So while the numbers may be large/small/significant they are unknown and as spill over is not an entitlement and complaints are historically low based on a spirit and consciousness that is post celtic tiger... [edited myself] RTE may get away with such moves.

    Because of Tipaza and the co channel interference on 252 it is a crime that RTE are on half their licenced power on LW, they should not complain until they restore full power. This week saw LW off air Tue/Wed, more disruption. All this follows on the heals of diaspora broadcasting (incl. radio) been written into the most recent legislation. Not one cent of the MW money that will be spent on DAB will be heard in the UK mainland. The Green Party minister supports RTE on this move. The problem wasn't MW (which is just about ready for DRM upgrade) but the fact that RTE was using an old transmitter than was designed in the middle of the last century. Financial case made here WHAT SAVINGS? http://url.ie/axf


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,127 ✭✭✭Digifriendly


    Fair Point. Didn't know about reduced power and haven't been across the water in England/Wales for quite a while. Would have thought that with just the one non FM frequency RTE would have wanted to increase rather than decrease its ERP. Doesn't seem fair to the diaspora especially across the water.


  • Posts: 18,160 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    BHG wrote: »
    Because of Tipaza and the co channel interference on 252 it is a crime that RTE are on half their licenced power on LW, they should not complain until they restore full power.[/url]
    They can't now. the 2x250kW Continental rigs have been replaced by one 300kW DRM compatible transmitter of German origin.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71 ✭✭BHG


    correct on 300KW. and its DRM but with no MW fall back LW DRM switch over is going to be more painful than MW switch off. Now, forgetting that RTE are using MW (?savings?) money to roll DAB, analog to digital in the AM bands is even less likely with one AM TX versus 2. Gun Shot Foot Miss? No, got both feet.

    Are the Irish Diaspora less worthy of 500KW licenced power that RTE claimed was needed to get LW to London to the people at the Trim Tribunal/Public Hearing, less worthy than the British kids they pumped pop music at with full 500KW on atlantic 252. It seems so. Pig in a poke, a nice new lower power DRM rig and no DRM strategy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,585 ✭✭✭DublinWriter


    rlogue wrote: »
    It's been inevitable since the launch of Radio 1 on 252 kHz, however the announcement by RTE that the MW version of RTE Radio 1 is to close in March seems to have taken some Indo journos and politicans by surprise...
    Hi Richard,

    Totally off topic I know, but it's great to see that you've got a broadcasting history forum here...I didn't even know it existed!!!

    I've enjoyed your http://www.irish-tv.com/ site for years...it's well worth a visit people!

    I don't think you'll remember me, but I contacted you a few years ago about clearing a quote of yours regarding RTE not publicly releasing their transmitter info for an article I was working on.

    Keep up the good work, it's great to see you on boards.ie


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