RTE Radio 1 to leave MW in March

rlogue

It's been inevitable since the launch of Radio 1 on 252 kHz, however the announcement by RTE that the MW version of RTE Radio 1 is to close in March seems to have taken some Indo journos and politicans by surprise...

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/anger-as-rte-to-switch-off-medium-wave-band-1269254.html

Fine Gael communications spokesman Simon Coveney said shutting down medium wave transmissions has implications for people in rural parts of the country and at sea.

"This is a public service broadcaster and this shouldn't be abandoned," he said.

Labour communications and marine spokesman Michael McCarthy said the decision would have the biggest implications for fishermen working 50 or 100 miles off the coast and relying on the broadcasts for weather reports and for farmers.

For a start the LW version of Radio 1 has a more robust signal and must be able to travel further at sea?

Foggy43

Thank you for the info!
What is happening with DRM?
OK! It was only a test which seems to have stopped or else I keep missing the transmissions at night. Can RTE use 252khz for both DRM and analogue simultaneous transmissions, I think not?

mike65

Need a radio with LW band of course. Many don't these days.

Mike.

watty

No only one or the other. They will change entirely to DRM soon on LW & MW.

So a LW car radio unless it does DRM is not going to be much use soon for RTE in England.

DMC

No mention of the Friday night Eircom League of Ireland action on MW and LW, cute considering they've just signed a long-term deal with the FAI.

L1011

Suspect that'll be shoved on to LW and the digital outlets for the AM service and they'll claim that you can just get a DAB if you've no LW tuner. Ignoring the 38% or whatever DAB coverage...

Antenna

watty wrote: »

No only one or the other. They will change entirely to DRM soon on LW & MW.

So a LW car radio unless it does DRM is not going to be much use soon for RTE in England.

There are no LW DRM car radios or portable radios on the market as of now

Only a few enthusiasts are equipped for DRM as of now, and they are using it only at fixed locations (not mobile/in car) where FTA satellite would be a more effective and cheaper to run option than using a PC to decode...

A bit premature to convert it to DRM totally. Even if the RTE LW went DRM tomorrow, it isn't going to stimulate manufacture of DRM MW/LW radios when it hasn't taken off elsewhere in Europe.

Antenna

MYOB wrote: »

Suspect that'll be shoved on to LW

they are on LW as well as MW already.

It is only the weekend repeats ('second helpings') which are MW only (on analogue)

mike65

RTE are going to give "50% off" vouchers to the needy who require a new radio!

Its being discussed on the lunchtime news right now.

Mike.

rlogue

And what about the nerdy who want a new radio? Is there a discount for us too!??

watty

It will be intersesting to see if there is typical Irish Short termism, or if recommended radios do FM, AM, DAB and DRM.

It seems daft to subsidise radios that will be obsolete fro LW in a year or two.

zilog_jones

The only portable consumer DRM radio I know of is that Morphy Richards one which costs over €200 - I'm sure there's a lot of people not willing or not able to afford that, even with a 50% subsidy. Also, I've never seen this for sale outside the internet. I think it's going to take a lot longer for DRM to take off...

L1011

zilog_jones wrote: »

The only portable consumer DRM radio I know of is that Morphy Richards one which costs over €200 - I'm sure there's a lot of people not willing or not able to afford that, even with a 50% subsidy. Also, I've never seen this for sale outside the internet. I think it's going to take a lot longer for DRM to take off...

I don't think thats what was meant by "portable"! I've got one here and its GIGANTIC, and doesn't take batteries.

Theres also Sangean, Starwaves and Himalaya receivers. And a Roberts I've never seen on sale thats the same as the Sangean (ironic as Morphy and Roberts are the same firm)

zilog_jones

MYOB wrote: »

I don't think thats what was meant by "portable"!

Well it's not a PC, at least

L1011

zilog_jones wrote: »

Well it's not a PC, at least

Its bigger than a Mac Mini

Well, so is my standard Pure Evoke 1XT DAB... and most of my FM radios too!

Zaphod

RTÉ report here:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0121/6news.html

Why would MW technology be "environmentally unsound"?

L1011

Zaphod wrote: »

RTÉ report here:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0121/6news.html

Why would MW technology be "environmentally unsound"?

Power output. Burning 500kW compared to, ooh, only 300kW in Summerhill

They claim MW broadcasting is going to become a "thing of the past" despite a new MW licence having been issued last year...

marclt

MYOB wrote: »

Power output. Burning 500kW compared to, ooh, only 300kW in Summerhill

They claim MW broadcasting is going to become a "thing of the past" despite a new MW licence having been issued last year...

RTE should have used the coming off of MW as an opportunity to promote the launch of DAB services... Ditch your old fuzzy MW with a new stereo DAB signal etc etc... But they have missed out on that one... !

It would be interesting to know if more people actually tune in on LW over MW? Does RTE think LW is superior to MW? After all, every radio in my house has MW but only two have LW. I've noticed that recently LW is no where near as strong as the old Atlantic signal and I often listen on MW when in Wales - especially at night because the signal is more stable.

DMC

RTÉ have botched this. They are maybe doing the right thing, but they don't have the new technology in place. I would like to know what happened when they turned Athlone off for 6 or 8 months a couple of years ago to "upgrade" and see what listener reaction there was.

marclt, hammer > nail > boink.

They should've waited until DAB was approved, get the tx's ready and then, it would've been reason to change to DAB. With Mass and Service on Sundays, it would've been a great way of getting them to upgrade.

Also, it should be noted, that a lot of rural elderly listen to local radio, and how many ILR's broadcast religious services on Sunday? LMFM and Northern Sound certainly do, can we build a nationwide picture of what happens?

Zaphod

MYOB wrote: »

Power output. Burning 500kW compared to, ooh, only 300kW in Summerhill

Ah! And there was me trying to figure out what the power consumption of a standard radio would be in comparision to a DAB one.

Has the LW output always been 300kW or was it higher during the Atlantic 252 days?

zilog_jones

The Wikipedia article says Atlantic 252 was 300kW as well although they do not cite this claim. Reception this side of the country doesn't seem any worse than back in the good ol days

L1011

Atlantic was 500 at day, 100 at night. Many sources to prove this from.

DMC

As MYOB said, WRTH 1997 ftw.

Propellerhead

Half a minute, it might be well RTÉ's techies' intention to convert to DRM on MW and/or LW, but what justification would there be if virtually no-one anywhere has a DRM receiver?

They might as well switch off LW while they are at it as well. :mad:

watty

Oh there ARE DRM receivers. And PC adaptors for radios to receive DRM on PC.

Expect some more this year. DRM is going to abolish AM shortwave very soon.

FM to DAB is no significant change and can be worse or better.

AM (LW,MW,SW) to DRM is almost like changing from AM to VHF, very marked of course for HF (shortwave).
DRM+ can even do better than DAB or FM (in lower bandwidth) at nearly CD quality. (It's for VHF, rather than LW/MW/SW)


I saw a nice portable evoke DAB/FM radio in HMV, €139. Now when it has DRM too I'll bite.

L1011

Propellerhead wrote: »

Half a minute, it might be well RTÉ's techies' intention to convert to DRM on MW and/or LW, but what justification would there be if virtually no-one anywhere has a DRM receiver?

They might as well switch off LW while they are at it as well. :mad:

I've a DRM receiver....

rlogue

So do I - for my laptop. However if I could get a DRM car radio then I would be very interested...

Zaphod

The shutdown ads have started on MW.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBycKEJR_CU

The glitch in audio at the start is at RTÉ's end when they cut into the FM output - you can hear where they rejoin again at the end. The background whine is interference from some box or another.

fm_radio

watty wrote: »

Expect some more this year. DRM is going to abolish AM shortwave very soon.

FM to DAB is no significant change and can be worse or better.

AM (LW,MW,SW) to DRM is almost like changing from AM to VHF, very marked of course for HF (shortwave).

DRM is dead in the water.

Here are some comments by Nigel Chapman of the BBC World Service in the 2007 WRTH

"I'm not very optimistic about DRM, to be perfectly honest"
"We should keep a toe in the water, but I wouldn't want to invest more in DRM at this stage"
"As you've probably already gathered, we're members of the DRM sceptic's club in Bush House"

So, I doubt if RTE will be using DRM fulltime on 252 khz anytime soon.

SPDUB

Zaphod wrote: »

The shutdown ads have started on MW.


The glitch in audio at the start is at RTÉ's end when they cut into the FM output - you can hear where they rejoin again at the end. The background whine is interference from some box or another.

They also have Larry Gogan doing the ad .He was on the one I heard before the 8am news last thursday ,24th.

Zaphod

SPDUB wrote: »

They also have Larry Gogan doing the ad .He was on the one I heard before the 8am news last thursday ,24th.

Haven't heard that one but did hear another with Ronan Collins.


Will Cork also be shut down on 729 kHz?

watty

fm_radio wrote: »

DRM is dead in the water.

Here are some comments by Nigel Chapman of the BBC World Service in the 2007 WRTH

"I'm not very optimistic about DRM, to be perfectly honest"
"We should keep a toe in the water, but I wouldn't want to invest more in DRM at this stage"
"As you've probably already gathered, we're members of the DRM sceptic's club in Bush House"

The BBC WS seems to be concentrating on FM/VHF relays and Satellite. Most traditional HF/SW broadcasters seem to be concentrating on Satellite. But TV satellite is not exactly portable.

The BBC seem to have generally lost the plot since sell off of transmitter network, outsource of IT & much productions and run down of R&D and Communications Engineering.

What are French, Germans, Dutch, Austrians, Swiss, Italians doing?

Antenna

Saving energy has a lot to do with bringing forward the MW shutdown I would think! RTE sees it as its contribution to reducing energy consumption!?

As a compromise, I wonder might they, for a period of a few months after the date of the announced shutdown, put the MW on air during the times of the existing separate (to FM) programmes (which are some sports, religious and the 'second helpings') and power it down the rest of the time?


this would usually only amount to a few hours every week.

there are hardly any listeners in this country who have a MW only radio (no FM and/or LW), however there are probably many who have no LW radio but want to hear some of the existing non-FM programmes , such as the Eircom League coverage for example (currently on both MW and LW and also DAB in the NE at present).

This shutdown (allbeit brought forward) seems to have been on the cards for 4 years or more, RTE really ought to have made public announcements about this long before now - and in particular to the motor trade of the need for car radios (difficult and expensive to replace) in cars sold in Ireland to have LW.

Foggy43

Am I correct in thinking that Summerhill 252LW is DRM ready?

I do not think there has been a DRM broadcast from there since a convention in Amsterdam in September. I do admit it is a while since I tried 252 at night......it is 2251 hours tried it and no signal.

Typical! 567khz coming in loud and clear for me here in Hammersmith.

zilog_jones

Antenna wrote: »

This shutdown (allbeit brought forward) seems to have been on the cards for 4 years or more, RTE really ought to have made public announcements about this long before now - and in particular to the motor trade of the need for car radios (difficult and expensive to replace) in cars sold in Ireland to have LW.

Any car radio I've used here can do LW - Ford and possibly others put it on the same "band" as MW on theirs. Well, except for radios in Japanese imports, which do FM and MW wrong, never mind LW!

I've also noticed some retailers/suppliers trying to supply LW radios over MW where possible. I bought a Sony radio alarm clock a few years ago, and noticed after RTÉ starting on 252 that shops were selling the same radio but with LW instead of MW tuners (like on mine). Coincidence?

watty

Foggy43 wrote: »

Am I correct in thinking that Summerhill 252LW is DRM ready?

I do not think there has been a DRM broadcast from there since a convention in Amsterdam in September. I do admit it is a while since I tried 252 at night......it is 2251 hours tried it and no signal.

Typical! 567khz coming in loud and clear for me here in Hammersmith.

They swapped the TX a while ago and have even broadcast 3 channels at once for 24hrs once or twice.

May only be from Midnight for DRM. Rest of time it's AM

DMC

It all ends for 567 khz after Brendan Balfe gives it a bit of a nostalgiafest on Monday afternoon..

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/specials/1193939.html

DMC

marclt wrote: »

RTE should have used the coming off of MW as an opportunity to promote the launch of DAB services... Ditch your old fuzzy MW with a new stereo DAB signal etc etc... But they have missed out on that one... !

They must have cottoned on to that, as DAB coverage has been expanded to Cork and Limerick cities in recent weeks.

zilog_jones

DMC wrote: »

They must have cottoned on to that, as DAB coverage has been expanded to Cork and Limerick cities in recent weeks.

Really? They sure as hell haven't advertised it much, because that's news to me!

DMC

Indeed, its there on the RTÉ Press Release website yet curiously not on the digital radio section.

Limerick was announced on the DAB thread a couple of days ago. Cork too.

http://www.digitalradio.ie/ has coverage maps.

Zaphod

Mr. Mick Kehoe: I wish to clarify that from a technical perspective. There has been much anecdotal evidence from very interested people on coverage of medium wave and long wave into the UK, Northern Ireland and around Ireland, especially in regard to interference. There are sky waves and ground waves and all kinds of frequency planning issues which make long wave and medium wave much more susceptible to interference, and Tipaza knocks out long wave, but there are also other channels which knock out medium wave.

To allay people’s concerns, two years ago we decided to go to four different locations - Derrybeg in northern Donegal; Ballydavid in south Tipperary; Evesham in the UK; and Crawley in south London. We set up recording with more or less standard radios and aerials to find out what people could hear. We recorded over 24-hour periods because I had no particular interest in people who run a 200 m cable up the side of a building or who do something specialist. We wanted to find out what the average person could hear with a more or less average radio. Medium wave, bar perhaps two or three hours, does not exist in London. Long wave lasts for most of the day in London. It dies out in the evening but comes back at about midnight.

The coverage of medium wave is fairly okay as far as Evesham but south of it, it is only available for a couple of hours a day while long wave is available for most of the day. That was what we found from recording what was delivered rather than what those with specialist equipment hear. We got a very good measure of what was happening.

Long wave coverage to the UK is far superior to medium wave. It is well above Tipaza and sky wave interference. It is just a recorded, on-the-ground effect.

Deputy Mattie McGrath: I have listened to the debate with interest and learned a great deal. However, there are several rural communities about which I am concerned. One of these is that relating to my parish, which is located in the Chairman’s constituency, where it is not possible to receive long wave transmissions. It is important that we cater for the 10% of people who cannot receive such transmissions. RTE is doing a good job but this was announced as a fait accompli. I accept that the latter is not the fault of our guests. The people in the area to which I refer pay their licence fees and are entitled to receive long wave transmissions. Perhaps the station could supply them with radio sets which would allow them to do so. In addition, people in the area are also unable to receive RTE 1 and Network 2 television signals. This fact has been ignored for several years.

Mr. Cathal Goan: Rather than getting into specifics, if the Deputy wishes to contact us about the area in question we can discuss the position.

Deputy Mattie McGrath: There are similar pockets throughout the country.

Mr. Mick Kehoe: Radio waves are naturally produced by the Earth. We, therefore, tag radio and television signals on to what is a natural resource of the Earth. Unfortunately, radio waves do not go around bends that well and do not dip down into valleys. The typography of the land makes it impossible to reach every house. However, we make concerted efforts to reach as many homes as possible.

Acting Chairman: Rather than referring to specific areas, perhaps Deputy Mattie McGrath might contact Mr. Kehoe after the meeting to discuss the issue in greater detail.

Senator Joe O’Reilly: As Deputy McManus stated, it would obviously have been preferable if the difficulties had been rectified in advance of the change. However, we must deal with the situation as it now stands.

I am concerned about Irish emigrant communities. I accept the point in respect of broadband, new technologies and so on. However, I am particularly concerned about those who emigrated in the 1950s to places such as the Kilburn High Road and who may be living in bedsits. These people may have old radio sets and they love RTE’s broadcasts.

Full coverage in respect of Northern Ireland is a major issue. Will our guests indicate when they anticipate rectifying the difficulties in this regard? How long will it take to do so?

It was stated that vouchers could be made available to help people overcome the difficulties. That would be admirable. How would such a voucher system operate? Are there any tentative plans in place? If people receive vouchers, that will be one problem solved. The only issues that will remain outstanding will be those relating to Northern Ireland and England. Many of us have lived among or visited the emigrant communities in London. Access to home means a great deal to people living in bedsits in the Kilburn High Road who only have access to old-style radio sets.

Senator Joe O’Toole: I completely agree with the concept of moving to long wave because the reception is far better. I can receive RTE’s long wave signal on my car radio from Edinburgh to Dover and also in areas of northern France. People on the Kilburn High Road will certainly receive

---

Deputy Liz McManus: Not at night.

Senator Joe O’Toole: Yes, I was just about to comment on that.

As I stated at another forum, attempts need to be made to educate members of the emigrant community and to make available to them long wave radios. When people see AM-FM radios, they presume that such sets cannot receive long wave transmissions. I was in someone’s car last week and the driver informed me that his radio has only two bands. I pointed out that, in fact, it has three, one of which is long wave. He did not realise that the AM band covers both medium and long wave. We must engage in a process of educating people.

I do not want to repeat what was said previously regarding interference involving Radio Algeria. Is it not the case that there is a vacant slot adjacent to 252 kHz, which is not being used and in respect of which there is not an overlap? The difficulty at night is that Radio Algeria interferes with the long wave signal and transmissions from this station drift right the way up to northern Europe. However, on the last occasion I checked, there was a vacant slot on the long wave band at approximately 269 kHz. If either RTE or Radio Algeria moved to that frequency, the problem would be solved. This would be a good time to move and it would not cause much difficulty to transfer transmission from 252 kHz to 269 kHz or whatever. We should investigate the possibility of doing so.

At the same time, perhaps our guests might introduce emigrants to the concept of using broadband radio, which is easier to use than either of the other to options. One need only press a button and one can listen to either Radio Kerry or RTE.

Mr. Cathal Goan: I thank the Senator for his observations regarding long wave. I do not know what is the position regarding the additional frequency.

Mr. Mick Kehoe: There are a couple of long wave frequencies available. As already stated, however, radio waves are a natural resource of each country. They were allocated in 1961. If someone approached ComReg in respect of a frequency not currently being used, they would face a battle to establish whether that frequency was actually ours.

Senator Joe O’Toole: They could do a straight swap.

Mr. Mick Kehoe: Unfortunately, it does not work like that. We have inquired about two or three different frequencies and engaged in discussions with various broadcasters. We will be obliged to commence the process of undergoing international co-ordination. It could take five or six years for that process to be completed.

Senator Joe O’Toole: Do we still own our short wave band?

Mr. Mick Kehoe: No.

Senator Joe O’Toole: We did have such a band.

Mr. Cathal Goan: I am not aware of such a band. I know there were plans to establish a short wave radio band in the 1940s. However, these were shelved following the election of the first inter-party Government.

[...]

Senator Joe O’Reilly: What is the position with regard to vouchers?

Mr. Adrian Moynes: There is a voucher scheme available which will allow people who cannot afford to purchase new radios - even though they are very cheap - to do so. We have already discussed this matter with Age Action Ireland and we will discuss it with the Society of St. Vincent de Paul on Friday next. People such as district health nurses, who are in contact with the elderly, and members of the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, who visit people in the community, will be aware of this matter. We have also provided information in respect of retuning to 3,500 parishes and religious communities throughout the country. Extensive information is available. If people contact us directly, we will provide vouchers.
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=MAJ20080227.XML&Ex=All&Page=6

I've noticed on numerous websites that interference from Algeria is the major problem with LW for many listeners in parts of the UK and throughout Europe - it's pretty noticeable down here after 7pm, and RTÉ is often unlistenable around 10pm.

Did Atlantic 252 encounter the same problems when they were in operation?

DMC

I'm surprised by the educated level of this matter of our elected representatives

rlogue has pointed LW reception at night as an issue many times here before, him being one of those said individual brickies in a bedsit in Kilburn.

I think the points made are LW penetrates further than MW ever did, and while Algeria does interfere in the south of England in the evenings, RTÉ's attitude is that something is better than nothing, and tbh, RTE Radio 1 is at its best during the daytime hours when reception is at its best.

In the early days of Atlantic 252, it was a 7am-7pm station, telling listeners to tune to Radio Luxembourg

DMC

And if that wasn't bad enough, there is 2 days of maintenance due in a few weeks.....

mike65

I thought RTE had a SW slot?

Mike.

DMC

They rent one from DW for the All-Ireland finals.

watty

Broadband Radio!

Ha! On anything other than a PC, RTE is a horror to use.
They keep changing the rstp address
The address is in an SMIL file
The SMIL is a link inside javascript on their page.

I have to look at source on PC, then download the SMIL file.
Open it in text editor and then have the link to type into a gadget or Internet Radio.

The BBC web page is fairly horrid on phone or and not as bad on Archos, it at least with a bit of fiddling you can find the rstp address, and unlike RTE it doesn't change.

RTE has NO streaming links on its phone handset friendly and well designed pda version.

watty

RTE on SW???

Ha Ha

They think having time on WRN is enough!

Broadcasting since the 1920s and historically a large population abroad and only in recent years have they bothered about an external service at all. There are 3rd world countries with more advanced SW & Satellite services than we are even thinking about When I lived Abroad in 1989/1990 I existed with snippits of irish news from BBC World Service, on SW and oddly possible to receive on VHF/FM in Jerusalem on car Radio! (Possibly from Cyprus as J'lem is very high up)

BHG

Mr. Mick Kehoe: Radio waves are naturally produced by the Earth. We, therefore, tag radio and television signals on to what is a natural resource of the Earth. Unfortunately, radio waves do not go around bends that well and do not dip down into valleys.

now i thought it went like this - Radio waves are usually produced by electric current alternating at radio frequency flowing in a special purpose conductor, called an antenna. [wikipedia ref] Should our national broadcaster have spokespersons that get principles so wrong. There is background earth radiation but broadcasters do not "tag on" to this natural resource of the Earth. I spat out my cornflakes reading that back in early March.

And secondly Mr. Kehoe says waves don't bend. well MW/LW are far better than UHF/DAB/SAT at the bends. SW hits the sky and falls. No Mr. Kehoe that does not mean the sky is falling.

I was listening to the final show on MW. The transmission was cut at 3pm followed by silence. At about 3:30 this announcement was put on a loop.

Zaphod

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeUSIskc6tY

rlogue

Quite frankly 567 was always a dead loss for me here in London. I did try and tune into 567 this lunchtime but even with a tuned loop antenna hard wired into a good quality AM radio I could get nothing at all, so I switched on to 252 and listened there instead.

Will I miss 567? Not at all. I'd be upset if 252 went, but frankly I really don't get the upset over the close of it. I still can hear Radio 1 and pretty much every other Irish radio station thanks to satellite and the Internet.