MA: Fighting Multiple Opponents

Dragan · 08-04-2008 04:41PM

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

In spite of its rarity in practice, it comes up a lot in these threads, as it did in this one, almost as if the value of your MA was dependent upon its street value.

That was probably my fault and mostly because i miss interpreted the whole "multiple opponent" thing to mean that you were actually training to deal with multiple attackers in a real life situation.

So apologies for that one!:o

The Bored One · 08-04-2008 04:45PM

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

almost as if the value of your MA was dependent upon its street value.

The street value of pure uncut karate is at 10,000 a kilo these days.

Khannie · 08-04-2008 05:17PM

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

Edits:
Hi Khannie! Rugadh i Gaillimh me'

Hi.

Is as baile atha cliath mé. Is aoibheann liom an Gaillimh.

I take your point on street value and rarity of use. As I said, I don't train my own MA for street value, but it is a very nice side benefit.

Rare as these incidents are though, they can be very serious. It's a bit like the seatbelt in my car ; There is a small chance that I will need it....but it may save my life if I do.

So how far back do yourself and NC go? That was a very cryptic comment indeed.

challengemaster · 08-04-2008 06:32PM

Roper: Don't judge books by their cover

Khannie wrote: »

Wasn't mental about the chest thumping tar-brush myself.

Well it's a fair point to make. In fairness, there are some people who do it for such reasons, not all though. also something to note. Comparable somewhat to Martial Arts Breaking? Something which could be seen as just for boasting - who can break more, yet it is a competitive aspect internationally.

Regards what was said about ending up in jail for proper use of what you know, from what I know, the law allows apropriate force to be used with regard to the level of threat. So someone threatning/attempting to kill you v something much less serious, what happens is depending on the amount of force you use. However I think that it gets far more 'cloudy' if you were to really look into it. I mean if you were to kill someone in self defense, probably you would end up in jail. Laws are weird like that.. I say make it texan style!

Shoot first, ask later. (sarcasm btw)

Charlie3dan wrote:

Developing knockout power would be essential (if you taking on a group, you have to be able to stop guys with one shot). Conditioning (you got to be able to take a shot, although this is null and void if the shot comes from a metal bar accross the back of the head obviously) and most importantly running fast quite fast!!!

Knockout power.. maybe. I wouldn't say power there, but more-so technique, speed and focus. I know you're probably thinking - technique?! wtf?! - But muscle memory, practice something the right way enough, and your body remembers. In TKD every(i think) movement is based on sine wave to generate more power, basically getting your whole body force behind the technique. With muscle memory and speed this is do-able on the street. Small bit of physics - Force = mass by acceleration. If you can focus the power you're generating onto vital points at speed, rather than just brute force attacks, it will prove to a lot more benifit (At a guess).

Again drawing reference to TKD - which I am novice at so please anyone higher grade please feel free to correct me on this - There's two types of most technique. One which uses pure speed, a fighting technique as such, and one which uses pure force. Take for example a front kick. You can put all your power into a front smashing kick, or you can do a very quick, pinpoint frontkick. chances are the powerful one will put them down - but that power needs a lot more control, but the speed attack will do enough damage to allow a get-away, possibly even make them throw up if hit right. Not something anyone's going to want to fight during...

Khannie: ha! don't even get into probability of things..

If you were only to compare.. Stuff people worry about vs more realistic happenings..

Khannie · 08-04-2008 06:46PM

challengemaster wrote: »

Khannie: ha! don't even get into probability of things.. If you were only to compare.. Stuff people worry about vs more realistic happenings..

I'd say there are around the same number of fights as car crashes in Ireland on a day to day basis....give or take. You wear your seatbelt don't you?

challengemaster · 08-04-2008 07:02PM

You know what I mean, not just in the two cases you mentioned, but in general.

This isnt a proper fact, but just for the sake of it (im not sure what the actual probability is, but its probably available) - eg. you're probably 10 times more likely do be hit by a car going somewhere than die in a planecrash.. etc, yet people worry more about planecrashes.. if you get where im going

anyway.. [/offtopic]

CM's words of wisdom for the day - Expect the unexpected!

FiannaGym.com · 08-04-2008 08:36PM

I hate these kinds of debates because you have to go over all the basics what we've discussed on other discussions.

Firstly, I should have said that kicking goes against every rule of Japanese Sword Fighting. Anyway,

Any art that is designed for combat on the battle field has self preservation as a secondary goal. Kung Fu, Krabi, and all the tarditional arts had the notion of killing more people than your life was worth as their central premise.

They were not designed for individual soilders to defend themselves with, rather to kill as many people as possible before they died.

So, with one on one combat this premise obviously changes. Japanese Sword fighting, dispite what has been made up or rehashed over the last century and a half was based (as far as sword fighting goes) on one on one combat situations.

This means the rules and techniques from a battle field art are not interchangable with those of a self defence/one on one style.

Next of all Iaijutsu isnt 1000 years old.

And my qualifications? what does that even mean? This is the single biggest problem with Japanese and Chinese Martial Arts today. I have the exact same cert Musashi Miyamoto had. In keeping with that, It's not my opinion that kicks should not be used in sword fighting, but his.

Peace

Charlie3dan · 09-04-2008 10:05AM

challengemaster wrote: »

Knockout power.. maybe. I wouldn't say power there, but more-so technique, speed and focus.

Yes agreed, I just used the word power as a kind of blanket term that a layman would use....should have known I wouldn't get away with that !

10-04-2008 01:21PM

FiannaGym.com wrote: »

Firstly, I should have said that kicking goes against every rule of Japanese Sword Fighting.

Recommend that you review Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-Ryu in all its variations. It's one of the oldest Japanese martial arts. It's an eclectic fighting system where kenjutsu (sword technique) was the major combat method for the samurai skilled in this ryu, which included iaijutsu when first engaging the enemy, but also included other secondary weapons (because samurai just didn't rely on swords), in combination with jujutsu (a weaponless, largely grappling technique). When reviewing the "variations" of this "eclectic" fighting system, in addition to grappling, kicking and other weaponless strikes were sometimes used, although always secondary in importance to the sword.

Another source of interest to this discussion would be the new book by the famous Japanese martial art historian and author Masaaki Hatsumi, Unarmed Fighting Techniques of the Samurai (2008).

Although many Okinawans would not consider themselves Japanese (yet they are citizens of today's Japan), you might want to review the Ryukyu history (Okinawan samurai). In Shosin Nagamine's book The Essence of Okinawan Karate-Do, he observes "The forbidden art (Kara-Te) was passed down from father to son among the samurai class of Okinawa."

You mentioned Miyamoto Musashi (full name Shinmen Musashi no Kami Fujiwara no Genshin)? In addition to being cited as the author of the Book of Five Rings (Gorin no Sho), it is also mentioned that this Kenshi (Sword Saint) developed and wrote a manual for an unarmed system of combat. In all his hundreds of fighting episodes, several where he confronted multiple opponents, I wonder if he ever kicked one while he clobbered the others with his wooden sword? (He preferred bokuto over shinken);)

phoenix-MT · 10-04-2008 02:03PM

roper, dont take it the wrong way but is that how you then got into martial arts? Ive been asking my students the same this week and found some interesting answers.
Anyway about multiple opponents, it is unrealistic (in my oppinion) to train like that as there is billions of combinations and ways in which it could happen giving you a false sense of security when you are actually confronted by 4 or 5 angree drunk meat heads! I think the best way is to sharpen up on your one on one training, fitness and be aware of your surroundings at all times (at the end of the day i cant put 2 people down at once). multiple opponent training is just one on one training but switching to different attackers (usually very quickly!!) hope i didnt offend anyone, no disrespect meant.

ryoishin · 10-04-2008 02:06PM

Sure you can kick while using the sword but not stab that guy and side kick another at the same time. Sure there may be exceptions. But in general you would try to keep your body away from the opponent, your foot might get lobed off by his sword. But i think i know where your coming from.

The kara te in samurais training is the china ha method as opposed to the empty hand. The kanji is different but the romanji is the same. Im not saying that at later stages samurai did nt study the empty hand karate. You have to be careful with names in japanese jujutsu they are used in different ways by different arts and differently at different times as Im sure you know.

FiannaGym.com · 10-04-2008 02:13PM

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

Recommend that you review Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-Ryu in all its variations. It's one of the oldest Japanese martial arts. It's an eclectic fighting system where kenjutsu (sword technique) was the major combat method for the samurai skilled in this ryu, which included iaijutsu when first engaging the enemy, but also included other secondary weapons (because samurai just didn't rely on swords), in combination with jujutsu (a weaponless, largely grappling technique). When reviewing the "variations" of this "eclectic" fighting system, in addition to grappling, kicking and other weaponless strikes were sometimes used, although always secondary in importance to the sword.

Another source of interest to this discussion would be the new book by the famous Japanese martial art historian and author Masaaki Hatsumi, Unarmed Fighting Techniques of the Samurai (2008).

Although many Okinawans would not consider themselves Japanese (yet they are citizens of today's Japan), you might want to review the Ryukyu history (Okinawan samurai). In Shosin Nagamine's book The Essence of Okinawan Karate-Do, he observes "The forbidden art (Kara-Te) was passed down from father to son among the samurai class of Okinawa."

You mentioned Miyamoto Musashi (full name Shinmen Musashi no Kami Fujiwara no Genshin)? In addition to being cited as the author of the Book of Five Rings (Gorin no Sho), it is also mentioned that this Kenshi (Sword Saint) developed and wrote a manual for an unarmed system of combat. In all his hundreds of fighting episodes, several where he confronted multiple opponents, I wonder if he ever kicked one while he clobbered the others with his wooden sword? (He preferred bokuto over shinken);)

Exactly my point. I'd never suggest people dont learn how to kick but rather that kicking in a sword fight goes against all of the most basic principles in one on one sword fighting. Of course if you find yourself without a sword, a weapon or what ever then perhaps kicking is used.
But even as you point out, for Samurai, fighting without a weapon meant closing distance and control (like S.T.A.B.). hahaha

Peace

phoenix-MT · 10-04-2008 02:15PM

yeah i agree with you totaly but i was looking at it more as self defence situation. Unless of course you carry a sword with you at all times....then i would defo be relying on my lung capacity :-)

FiannaGym.com · 10-04-2008 02:29PM

Wait, you DONT carry your sword with you everywhere you go?

How do you live with yourself?
How do inkeepers know what grade of saki to serve you?

Peace

Roper · 10-04-2008 02:34PM

phoenix-MT wrote: »

roper, dont take it the wrong way but is that how you then got into martial arts? Ive been asking my students the same this week and found some interesting answers.

You mean cos I got hockeyed? No. Actually, the real reason I got into martial arts (and nobody really believes me when I say this) is remarkably similar to why I was walking home through Swan's Nest and got jumped. I joined my first TKD school because I wanted to get laid. Does that sound shallow? It's true though.

I had just left college and was thinking about boxing again and maybe going back playing football or maybe joining a running club. I was at a loose end really. Then my mate had rejoined TKD and he asked me and a mate to come up and give it a shot. We walked in, the place was full of fit girls, we stayed. I married one of them.

I said that to one of the girls in my gym one night and she was horrified! But hey at least I'm honest most people say "to learn self discipline" and stuff like that but I bet if you delve deep enough you'll find a girl story.

phoenix-MT · 10-04-2008 02:35PM

lol not usually, so thats how you get the good stuff! :-)

phoenix-MT · 10-04-2008 02:38PM

haha fair enough mate, good answer

Roper · 10-04-2008 02:40PM

Yes you might say I followed my moral compass....

HammerHeadGym · 10-04-2008 02:57PM

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

...It's one of the oldest Japanese martial arts...

It sure is but 1000 years it ain't.

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

...the famous Japanese martial art historian and author Masaaki Hatsumi...

Most famous in martial arts circles for being laughed out of court when he tried to prove his legitimacy.

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

...In all his hundreds of fighting episodes...

Actually, he had 60 duels in which his life was in danger. It's in the introduction to Gorin no Sho

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

...I wonder if he ever kicked one while he clobbered the others with his wooden sword?...

He may have, but he certainly didn't advocate the idea. He mentions in the scroll of fire (chapter 3) that [a warrior] should not concern oneself with learning fanciful techniques but instead devote ones practise entirely to the sword and the business of killing.

As my learned frien Ryoishin alludes to, making a sword attack and a kick at the same time will result in two poor techniques, rather than wipe two opponents out.

challengemaster · 10-04-2008 06:32PM

FiannaGym.com wrote: »

Exactly my point. I'd never suggest people dont learn how to kick but rather that kicking in a sword fight goes against all of the most basic principles in one on one sword fighting. Of course if you find yourself without a sword, a weapon or what ever then perhaps kicking is used.
But even as you point out, for Samurai, fighting without a weapon meant closing distance and control (like S.T.A.B.). hahaha

Peace

Please tell me why you're replying to a 'Fighting Multiple Opponents' thread while having one on one sword fighting in mind? You may not be wrong for 1v1, but seeing as this is about 2 opponents attacking at the same time.. I'd say rules for 1v1 go out the window.

FiannaGym.com · 10-04-2008 08:03PM

challengemaster wrote: »

Please tell me why you're replying to a 'Fighting Multiple Opponents' thread while having one on one sword fighting in mind? You may not be wrong for 1v1, but seeing as this is about 2 opponents attacking at the same time.. I'd say rules for 1v1 go out the window.

The question really is, why are you discussing self defence situations involving you using a katana?

Peace

challengemaster · 10-04-2008 11:22PM

The question is why are you trying to change topic once you realise you're wrong.

"peace"

FiannaGym.com · 11-04-2008 02:36PM

Ha, Im not at all.

So lets just assume I'm wrong, and you refuted my argument (which of course you didnt) please tell me how Musashi Miyamoto is wrong?

Self defence with a Katana? Sounds like a plausable scenario.

So if we are talking like a couple of guys with a columbine mentality then I would suggest never kicking when using a Katana, I only suggest this because all of the greats through history, using a Japanese sword, or ore, suggest not kicking.

But why would you kick? Who's gonna attack you when you have a sword? The police maybe? It's not me that wrong, its the mentality that comes up with this stuff. "Lets train being attacked by multiple opponents while carrying a sword".

It's like when I was out at the St Patricks day parade in Bray. All these men walking down the road in their Samurai costumes and some kid shouts out "He's got a plastic sword" then him and his mates laugh with the rest of the crowd.

I hope those guys enjoy what they do and feel better about it. But when it comes to martial arts and opinions about them I like to pressure test them. I dont care what anyone does in their dojo, Its not like Im ever gonna attack them once I see they have a sword.

Peace (why you would put that in quotation marks boggles the mind)

15-04-2008 08:54AM

Interesting discussions and differences of opinion, sometimes on the topic of multiple opponent combat (and at other times addressing single combat)...

FiannaGym.com wrote: »

I only suggest this because all of the greats through history, using a Japanese sword, or ore, suggest not kicking.

I would be cautious in making sweeping all inclusive statements about anything (including Japanese sword experts, combat systems, and related ryu's that have evolved over the centuries).

fifthcolumn · 07-06-2008 11:38PM

I've been in three multiple opponent fights and I didn't get seriously injured.
In the fourth I got my head kicked in.

The key is this: keep your opponents AWAY and then RUN as soon as you get a chance. If you go to the ground you will get your head kicked in.

The first: drunk out my face in a club in Glasgow. The girl I asked to dance got me thrown out and pounded by several bouncers who were kicking and punching me. I was nearly thrown down the stairs but grabbed the bannister and held on for dear life all the while trying to kick them away. I probably only survived a seriously beating because they stopped hitting me.

The second: drunk out of my face in mallorca. Three English guys I was stupidly trying to outdrink who I knew didn't like the look of me from the get go decided to start it. The one broke a bottle with the intention to hit me in the face with it. I knew it was coming so I blocked it and picked up a chair and smashed it into him. I don't know what happened after because I blacked out but I must have ran after putting distance between myself and them because I found myself on the street with blood running down my face.

The third: drunk out of my face in temple bar. A girl didn't like my amorous comments and so she and her two male friends decided they were going to teach me a lesson. Luckily none of them could fight and a taxi was right there. I was taking hits but they didn't know to try to pull me to the ground so I got the taxi door open and in. If I had got pulled to the ground I was probably dead.

The fourth: I got in a fight with a guy outside a club. I fell down and I tried to pull him down with me to groundfight him. He was good enough to block my takedowns and I was too drunk anyway. His mates showed up and I was grabbed and held while my head was kicked. Luckily they stopped before I was killed.

It seems to me that the most effective technique against multiple opponents is pushing/smashing weapons and just being seriously, seriously violent. Also don't let the fight go longer than is needed to make enough space to just run.

In one to one fights where it's a punching/kicking session I usually get injured even if I win. The way to end most fights the quickest is definitely grappling and throws. I've never seen anyone get up from being thrown. The next move is just to run. Don't wait around. All this idea about being ultimate streetfighter is a bunch of ****e. Most decent fighters can take a few punches or kicks.

The one fight I was in the guy smacked me on the side of face. My eye closed right up. I tried a back kick. I got the guy full on in the stomach. My went "oof" and paused. Then I moved in and it went close range. I got some hits in but so did he. I think that though I beat him I still lost. I shouldn't have tried to win and instead should have ran when he went "ooof".

Strike hard and run. I think once the distance is opened up they remain with the memory of getting hit hard and don't want to come back for more. It's easier. If you're in close and hitting but also getting hit they can tell how the fights going.

Definitely hit and run.

phoenix-MT · 08-06-2008 01:56AM

maybe drinking isnt such a good idea either ;-)

conor rowan · 08-06-2008 05:01AM

the only time ive trained in multiple opponents was a 7vs7 bjj session which was admittidly a lot of fun but not very practical.

the last time i was in a group fight situation, i was coming out of portobello bar where id organised a fundraised to see my mate lying on the ground while 3 scumbags kicked him trying to get his phone. so i felt duty bound to intervene. i stood over him and used takedowns to put the scumbags on the ground but as there were three of them it was this never ending conveyor belt of scum ie by the time you put the other 2 on the ground the first guy is back up. eventually one of the bouncers saw what was happening and came running down and the lads legged it to get planks.
this was the cue for me to ride off into the sunset (my mate had already lumbered off ages ago).

what i learnt from this was to develop more striking and stop trying to reason with scum. the normal rules dont apply they ARE interested in resorting to violence. next time i would be so gentlemanly.
from what i remembered they only really attacked one at a time so i figure the best thing to train at would be an effective striking and stay on your feet and when the moment comes, run away. ive said it before but any MA where you spar regurlarly and has you in shape and used to thinking with adrenaline should suffice.

slan
conor
ps
'I wouldn't mind but the reason I was seeing that girl was because it was the first regular lay of my life'
oh roper youre such a romantic, you bring a tear to my leg:p

David Jones · 08-06-2008 04:31PM

drunk out my face in a club in Glasgow

drunk out of my face in mallorca

drunk out of my face in temple bar

I got in a fight with a guy outside a club.

i was coming out of portobello bar

Is there a pattern here or is it just me?

conor rowan · 09-06-2008 05:35AM

David Jones wrote: »

Is there a pattern here or is it just me?

yup, nearly all fights are avoidable, except when alcohol is involved and people dont seem to think straight.

David Jones · 09-06-2008 07:53AM

yup, nearly all fights are avoidable, except when alcohol is involved and people dont seem to think straight.

So the best defence against multiple opponents is not to get pissed out of your face.......wow i didnt even have to go to a seminar to work that out, and it doesnt have to be pressure tested either or drilled in combat trousers with knives and biting. Brilliant strategy, wonder why more people dont adopt it. :rolleyes:

MA: Fighting Multiple Opponents

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