MA: Fighting Multiple Opponents

Black Swan

How many of you seriously train to fight more than one opponent at a time? If so, what percentage of your training is dedicated to multiple opponent fighting (in an average month)?

I've been in TKD for a decade (If you count the time when I was just a kid). Except during poomse (forms), or breaking, or SD routines (mostly learned for grading), we really didn't seriously deal with multiple opponent fighting.

About two years ago I began Japanese sword, mostly focused on the four basic moves of Iaijutsu using daito (long sword): nukitsuke (draw), kirioroshi (cut), chiburi (clean), and noto (resheath). Once again, our emphasis was on single combat.

My master has just introduced multiple opponent fighting, combining Iaijutsu with his unique version of Muso Shinden Ryu (sword fighting with more moves than Iaijutsu). In addition to cuts, we also use full contact kicks, finally making my training in TKD useful; i.e., you might cut one opponent, while kicking another (often back kick or side thrust), when both are closing. About half of our training time (3 days a week), will now include multiple opponent combat.

If you frequently train to fight multiple opponents, I thought it might be interesting to share on the SD&MA forum a few examples of how you train (like my cut and kick)? Comments?

ryoishin

I fight mulyiple opponents in training all the time, just never at the same time ha ha.

I think if your fighting more than one person you have to be determined to survive.

HammerHeadGym

Has your master spent a lot of time fighting multiple opponents? Or is it more theory based? The raeson I ask is, as far as I've ever learned or intuited, if your carrying a weapon and fighting, the best thing to put between you and the attacker is the weapon. Why carry a sword if you're gonna kick a guy? I spent some time in Japan studying with a former riot cop trainer, who reckons fighting multiple opponents is the same as one on one, just 'more martial than art'

Khannie

I don't train for self defence. Only ringsport. Multiple opponents doesn't come into it for me.

Dragan

HammerHeadGym wrote: »

'more martial than art'

Thats a pretty decent way to look at it. From my own experience anything involving multiple attackers or targets will boil down to how vicious you want/need to be and how lucky you are! Having a good delivery system is obviously a huge help but the simple fact is that one on one combat contains far too many variables to ensure a victory over any opponent ( talking about the "street" here as obviously in the sports realms those variables are limited ) so how people can really think you can effectively train for multiples is pretty much beyond me.

See a target, make a decision, act, re-evaluate. There is not going to be a massive amount of concious thought it a real multiple attacker situation....or maybe i just wasn't clever when i was involved with them?

I guess my main issue is that most systems designed for multiple attacker scenarios seem to be based around the idea of them being armed with something, you being armed with something and everyone having room to swing.

Roper

I think another, more revealing poll would be titled "What Percentage of Your Time Do You Spend Training for Multiple Opponents in an Effective Manner?"

I've been in 2 "mutliple opponent" "fights" in my "life" (hmm, overdoing the quote marks? Nah.) and both times I got "hockeyed" and only "running" saved my bacon. That's when there's only been me and there's been more than one of them. Once I was 16/17 and walking home from my girl's house when her brother and his mates jumped me while he distracted me. The second time was 2 lads trying to take some of my possessions when I was pretty drunk. No amount of training could have prevented either of those, but having the lungs to run a kilometre flat out certainly helped me in the first incident. Apparently, a heroin habit=bad cardio. In the second, I thought I did alright until I saw my face the next day .

Dragan

Roper wrote: »

In the second, I thought I did alright until I saw my face the next day .

Damn Barry,

i hope they got picked up for it man. Not the theft, damaging that work of art that is your face should carry some severe punishment!:D

** This line may include some smart-alecky-like-sarcasm!

Nothingcompares

Roper wrote: »

Once I was 16/17 and walking home from my girl's house when her brother and his mates jumped me while he distracted me.

He didn't approve of your courtship?

pearsquasher

Because the roots of Bujinkan training come from a feudal period where it's highly likely a fight will involve weapons AND multiples, training in this art has a built in sensitivity to that possibility from the start. Hence a large degree of staying mobile (ie. not going to ground), awareness of weapon use, use of tactical positioning, disengagement etc.

Khannie

Nothingcompares wrote: »

He didn't approve of your courtship?

Yeah....bit harsh that. Did you do something to him? Or did he just not like you with his sister?

cletus

I have difficulty dealing with one guy when im sparring, let alone aving another guy come after me

Scramble

My take on this is-

1. The vast, vast majority of people out there still have enough problems dealing with an opponent of their own weight and ability, let alone multiple opponents.

2. If you are outnumbered by a significant number of people then no matter how good you are then there is a good chance you're going to get absolutely hammered and end up going off in an ambulance. I accept that maybe training could make a difference in terms of exactly how badly you get hurt, but to be honest all the mutliple opponent training/drills I've seen have been clearly choreographed or else toned down in terms of the contact involved to the point it defeated the purpose.

Dragan

pearsquasher wrote: »

Because the roots of Bujinkan training come from a feudal period where it's highly likely a fight will involve weapons AND multiples, training in this art has a built in sensitivity to that possibility from the start. Hence a large degree of staying mobile (ie. not going to ground), awareness of weapon use, use of tactical positioning, disengagement etc.

So your not really studying an art form that is relevant in todays modern life, so are hardly training for self defence with regard to multiple attackers. Your are training because you are enjoying what you are doing, not because it has any real application to your modern life.

It's like a friend of mine who is really into and works with theoretical future communications but also studies and collects old telegram technology. It's no use to him in his real life application but he just enjoys it.

I would call it training for fun, not training for self defence myself.

Unless you can pull a High Lander and do a nifty job hiding that sword to ensure it is on your person when the multiples attack?

challengemaster

Mainly train for competition sparring in Karate, always has been really.. near blackbelt now.That's all 1v1.. And am still a lowly beginner in TKD for now, only sparring so far has been 1v1 also.

HammerHeadGym wrote:

if your carrying a weapon and fighting, the best thing to put between you and the attacker is the weapon. Why carry a sword if you're gonna kick a guy?

Well.. unless you're able to attack atleast twice as fast as either opponant, and strike with great effectiveness at the time when it counts(which in live combat, will be harder than training no doubt),then I doubt that you'll be able to take on 2 opponants attacking/closing in at the exact same time.

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

you might cut one opponent, while kicking another (often back kick or side thrust), when both are closing.

However I think that working on speed might be more beneficial in such a situation. Trying to back/side kick one person whilst precision sword combat another is no easy feat I'd imagine, and if the kick were to miss for any reason...

If fighting 2+ opponants there's really 3 situations I can come up with that are possible.
1) If you've something giving you a major advantage, eg. weapon with adequate training to deal with such events.
2) Run the **** away.
3) If possible, disarm/disable one attacker in such a way you can use him as a hostage.

Obviously #3 would be hard enough to do (even in 2 opponant), so unless you're confident of your ability to do so, wouldn't be advised.

Roper: wtf? Why would her brother just attack you? Unlucky

Roper

Uh, I'm sorta sorry I wrote that now because it is quite a long story.

The nuts and bolts of it are that he had a heroin habit that was out of control (is there any other kind?) and he was stealing from his family. He was caught by his mother one night when I was in the house and I had to restrain him and since I didn't really know how to restrain someone back then, I ended up just hitting him a lot. In my defence, he had swung for his own mother and nearly connected and given her a few shoves. Anyway, after that he had it in for me and gave me the regular evil eye, but I thought he was just acting tough. Then he stopped me one night as I was walking home to "apologise'' to me and his mates jumped me when I was talking to him. I swung at them a bit and then was starting to take a beating so I managed to get away and just cheesed it. I wouldn't mind but the reason I was seeing that girl was because it was the first regular lay of my life. I was absolutely gutted after that because even that wasn't worth getting a hiding for every time.

FiannaGym.com

Kicking in a sword fight?

That pretty much breaks every essential rule of sword fighting.

Peace

ryoishin

There are some kicks but usually from a kneeling position. But in standing footwork is so crutial so its best to avoid kicking.

Ah the regular lay and here i thought it was your bad jokes Roper.

challengemaster

FiannaGym.com wrote: »

Kicking in a sword fight?

That pretty much breaks every essential rule of sword fighting.

Peace

Excuse me if I question your qualifications, but how can you say this? Have you studied sword for years? are you infact a qualified master in sword?

3KINGS

The Thai arts of krabbikrabong have been kicking in there sword arts for hundreds of years 'n' they normaly have two swords.......along with Indian,Phillie and Indo arts as well.

There's tones of stuff out there on group attacks,some people just get to focused on either sport boxing ,wrestling,Muay Thai.......while other's focus to much on battlefield stuff,that with out the balance of playing sport ( military games ) they end up in the land of make believe.

Sport and traditional arts,are one in the same.........they are just different sides of the same coin

Peace...........J

pearsquasher

Dragan...you're incorrect in what you say about my training in the Bujinkan.

Re-read what I said about it here. It's one of the basic premises of the art.

Dragan

pearsquasher wrote: »

Dragan...you're incorrect in what you say about my training in the Bujinkan.

Re-read what I said about it here. It's one of the basic premises of the art.

Hey dude,

i have re-read your post but still cannot fathom how your training in Bujinkan could be considered a way of training that is relevant to modern day self defence? I mean, something based around a weapon you will not have on you just does not strike me as relevant.

I am not trying to be dimissive and am genuinely curious as to what point i am missing. If you wouldn't mind breaking down the real world application for me i would be very grateful.

Black Swan

An interesting exchange, so far... But some misunderstanding with regard to Iaijutsu. Please realise that, although I've trained hard for two years, I'm a novice at best, with years to go to become skillful. But I am a bit more knowledgeable than the lads that do cucumber or apple cutting demos to amuse the crowds at MA tournaments...

First, it's not a sport like kendo, but rather an art form that's about 1000 years old. Yes, it was used in combat, as well as self-defense, but all these modern day street fighting comparisons are moot indeed, cause I could hardly go shopping down Grafton in Dub with my long sword tucked in my belt without drawing a bit of attention from the gardai?

Second, most of what you have read in books or seen in the movies about Japanese swordfighting is myth, pure dramatic nonsense, or lost in translation. There is no clash of swords, cause with such swords they would chip and dull the blades. With Iaijutsu, after a million training repetitions over years with slight cut variations, you draw and cut your opponent in one fluid motion (or he cuts you), and game over!

Third, in Iaijutsu YOU are the weapon. The sword is merely an extension of YOU. Yes, your blade is primary, but in combat you use all you've got to win, consequently, if by chance a second opponent gets too close and leaves himself open, kick his a*s and cut him while he's off balance! Game over! Thank the gods we use wooden bokens to fight with in practice and not shinken (live blades) or we'd all be dead.

And lastly, I am amused by critiques on the uselessness of ancient martial arts like Iaijutsu. Be honest with yourselves and admit that you are into MA or MMA (or whatever) cause you are having fun, staying fit, and the practical application to the street may be good for chest thumping at the pub over a pint of Guinness, but is extremely rare to be used in the real world or you'd be spending time in court or jail.

Dragan

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

And lastly, I am amused by critiques on the uselessness of ancient martial arts like Iaijutsu. Be honest with yourselves and admit that you are into MA or MMA (or whatever) cause you are having fun, staying fit, and the practical application to the street may be good for chest thumping at the pub over a pint of Guinness, but is extremely rare to be used in the real world or you'd be spending time in court or jail.

Nice post, slightly derogatory but it did give me some answers that i was looking for.

Degsy

If you want to fight multiple attackers,i reccomend you learn the ancient art of swinging people round by the hair whilst kneeing them in the face.You might also want to practise kicking people once they're on the ground to stop them getting up again.Oh yeah,and running like ****.

Khannie

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

And lastly, I am amused by critiques on the uselessness of ancient martial arts like Iaijutsu.

That comes accross as fairly pretentious to be fair. Modern ringsports are more effective in many respects than most older martial arts. Blade arts are an edge case (badum-tish! ).

edit: I know nothing of Iaijutsu. I infer from your post that it's a blade art. Anyone doing blade arts (as you point out) isn't doing it for self defence in a modern context (unless they're carrying a concealed blade weapon for self defence purposes, which I consider unlikely).

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

Be honest with yourselves and admit that you are into MA or MMA (or whatever) cause you are having fun, staying fit, and the practical application to the street may be good for chest thumping at the pub over a pint of Guinness, but is extremely rare to be used in the real world or you'd be spending time in court or jail.

I admit that I like the side benefit of being less likely to get the **** knocked out of me if push comes to shove (badum-tish!). Since I left school I've been in one fight and have avoided a good few with some good old fashioned cop on. Chest thumping has nothing to do with anything. If anything, feeling more confident gives me the ability to walk away more easily, as I've nothing to prove. I'm happy to step into the ring to prove myself to myself and don't have to batter some drunken muppet who's looking for a fight to feel good about myself.

Roper

Hey there Blue Lagoon,

Just wondering what you feel the things that are more commonly used in the real world are, since you think that kicking, punching, kneeing, elbowing, throwing and grappling are rarely used and are merely for chest thumping?

Also, just FYI, I see you live in California and you may not be atuned to Irish sensibilities, but implying things like we all sit around in the pub drinking Guinness is a bit like saying go bomb someone to a Muslim. A wee bit stereotypical and offensive to some. Just letting you know.

Khannie

Pretty sure she's Irish. Wasn't mental about the chest thumping tar-brush myself.

Nothingcompares

Blue lagoon dips into this forum from time to time, the style and content of her posts never change, regardless of the change in tone and atmosphere of the board wrt to time. She seems almost oblivious to MMA etc., impervious to change, resolute in her opinion and steadfast in her position. A constant.

Charlie3dan

I don't think that blue lagoon was taking a stab at the irish there at all, but that's me.

As for the poll, I think the original question is poorly phrased. What does "seriously"
training for multiple attackers mean?

I could see some benefit from the choreographed or watered down group traing drills that are mentioned in previous posts, but definitely this wouldn't be sufficient.

Developing knockout power would be essential (if you taking on a group, you have to be able to stop guys with one shot). Conditioning (you got to be able to take a shot, although this is null and void if the shot comes from a metal bar accross the back of the head obviously) and most importantly running fast quite fast!!!

....the things I mentioned above aren't exclusive to training for multiple attackers but are probably more valueable than the drills discussed

MrO

IMO - training against multiple opponents is interesting, a wee bit of eye-opener and worth spending *some* time on. It requires developing a little mental flexibility - and (for me) its a little like when you start training with weapons in that you're trying to divide your attention between a couple of things and one can end up messing up the other. So, you're using a stick, staff, knife, swords whatever and you become so focused on that - that your normal reactions and movement become stiff or messed up. Similar issue when facing multiple attackers in a sense.
Anyway - worth doing now and then I think - but as someone else mentioned the choreography can be a little much sometimes so it all depends on how you approach it.

I like Guinness.

Black Swan

Roper wrote: »

Just wondering what you feel the things that are more commonly used in the real world are, since you think that kicking, punching, kneeing, elbowing, throwing and grappling are rarely used and are merely for chest thumping?

Hi Roper! Quite to the contrary. That was not the meaning of my post, but rather to point out that most of us have fun doing MA, and that we should chill out, relax, and not get so serious about street talk.

In addition to TKD at our dojang, we teach SD that includes all of the above.
But in a decade of training, I only had to use SD once. In this regard, I'm no different than most who practice a form of MA for several years, in that it is extremely rare (if ever) that it is used in the street. We had a thread in this forum not too long ago that confirmed this. In spite of its rarity in practice, it comes up a lot in these threads, as it did in this one, almost as if the value of your MA was dependent upon its street value.

Edits:
Hi Khannie! Rugadh i Gaillimh me'

MrO: I love Guinness!

Charlie3dan: Cinnte! Go raibh maith agat.

Nothingcompares: Not going to say how far we go back... Ha!

Dragan

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

In spite of its rarity in practice, it comes up a lot in these threads, as it did in this one, almost as if the value of your MA was dependent upon its street value.

That was probably my fault and mostly because i miss interpreted the whole "multiple opponent" thing to mean that you were actually training to deal with multiple attackers in a real life situation.

So apologies for that one!:o

The Bored One

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

almost as if the value of your MA was dependent upon its street value.

The street value of pure uncut karate is at 10,000 a kilo these days.

Khannie

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

Edits:
Hi Khannie! Rugadh i Gaillimh me'

Hi.

Is as baile atha cliath mé. Is aoibheann liom an Gaillimh.

I take your point on street value and rarity of use. As I said, I don't train my own MA for street value, but it is a very nice side benefit.

Rare as these incidents are though, they can be very serious. It's a bit like the seatbelt in my car ; There is a small chance that I will need it....but it may save my life if I do.

So how far back do yourself and NC go? That was a very cryptic comment indeed.

challengemaster

Roper: Don't judge books by their cover

Khannie wrote: »

Wasn't mental about the chest thumping tar-brush myself.

Well it's a fair point to make. In fairness, there are some people who do it for such reasons, not all though. also something to note. Comparable somewhat to Martial Arts Breaking? Something which could be seen as just for boasting - who can break more, yet it is a competitive aspect internationally.

Regards what was said about ending up in jail for proper use of what you know, from what I know, the law allows apropriate force to be used with regard to the level of threat. So someone threatning/attempting to kill you v something much less serious, what happens is depending on the amount of force you use. However I think that it gets far more 'cloudy' if you were to really look into it. I mean if you were to kill someone in self defense, probably you would end up in jail. Laws are weird like that.. I say make it texan style! Shoot first, ask later. (sarcasm btw)

Charlie3dan wrote:

Developing knockout power would be essential (if you taking on a group, you have to be able to stop guys with one shot). Conditioning (you got to be able to take a shot, although this is null and void if the shot comes from a metal bar accross the back of the head obviously) and most importantly running fast quite fast!!!

Knockout power.. maybe. I wouldn't say power there, but more-so technique, speed and focus. I know you're probably thinking - technique?! wtf?! - But muscle memory, practice something the right way enough, and your body remembers. In TKD every(i think) movement is based on sine wave to generate more power, basically getting your whole body force behind the technique. With muscle memory and speed this is do-able on the street. Small bit of physics - Force = mass by acceleration. If you can focus the power you're generating onto vital points at speed, rather than just brute force attacks, it will prove to a lot more benifit (At a guess).

Again drawing reference to TKD - which I am novice at so please anyone higher grade please feel free to correct me on this - There's two types of most technique. One which uses pure speed, a fighting technique as such, and one which uses pure force. Take for example a front kick. You can put all your power into a front smashing kick, or you can do a very quick, pinpoint frontkick. chances are the powerful one will put them down - but that power needs a lot more control, but the speed attack will do enough damage to allow a get-away, possibly even make them throw up if hit right. Not something anyone's going to want to fight during...

Khannie: ha! don't even get into probability of things.. If you were only to compare.. Stuff people worry about vs more realistic happenings..

Khannie

challengemaster wrote: »

Khannie: ha! don't even get into probability of things.. If you were only to compare.. Stuff people worry about vs more realistic happenings..

I'd say there are around the same number of fights as car crashes in Ireland on a day to day basis....give or take. You wear your seatbelt don't you?

challengemaster

You know what I mean, not just in the two cases you mentioned, but in general.

This isnt a proper fact, but just for the sake of it (im not sure what the actual probability is, but its probably available) - eg. you're probably 10 times more likely do be hit by a car going somewhere than die in a planecrash.. etc, yet people worry more about planecrashes.. if you get where im going

anyway.. [/offtopic]

CM's words of wisdom for the day - Expect the unexpected!

FiannaGym.com

I hate these kinds of debates because you have to go over all the basics what we've discussed on other discussions.

Firstly, I should have said that kicking goes against every rule of Japanese Sword Fighting. Anyway,

Any art that is designed for combat on the battle field has self preservation as a secondary goal. Kung Fu, Krabi, and all the tarditional arts had the notion of killing more people than your life was worth as their central premise.

They were not designed for individual soilders to defend themselves with, rather to kill as many people as possible before they died.

So, with one on one combat this premise obviously changes. Japanese Sword fighting, dispite what has been made up or rehashed over the last century and a half was based (as far as sword fighting goes) on one on one combat situations.

This means the rules and techniques from a battle field art are not interchangable with those of a self defence/one on one style.

Next of all Iaijutsu isnt 1000 years old.

And my qualifications? what does that even mean? This is the single biggest problem with Japanese and Chinese Martial Arts today. I have the exact same cert Musashi Miyamoto had. In keeping with that, It's not my opinion that kicks should not be used in sword fighting, but his.

Peace

Charlie3dan

challengemaster wrote: »

Knockout power.. maybe. I wouldn't say power there, but more-so technique, speed and focus.

Yes agreed, I just used the word power as a kind of blanket term that a layman would use....should have known I wouldn't get away with that !

Black Swan

FiannaGym.com wrote: »

Firstly, I should have said that kicking goes against every rule of Japanese Sword Fighting.

Recommend that you review Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-Ryu in all its variations. It's one of the oldest Japanese martial arts. It's an eclectic fighting system where kenjutsu (sword technique) was the major combat method for the samurai skilled in this ryu, which included iaijutsu when first engaging the enemy, but also included other secondary weapons (because samurai just didn't rely on swords), in combination with jujutsu (a weaponless, largely grappling technique). When reviewing the "variations" of this "eclectic" fighting system, in addition to grappling, kicking and other weaponless strikes were sometimes used, although always secondary in importance to the sword.

Another source of interest to this discussion would be the new book by the famous Japanese martial art historian and author Masaaki Hatsumi, Unarmed Fighting Techniques of the Samurai (2008).

Although many Okinawans would not consider themselves Japanese (yet they are citizens of today's Japan), you might want to review the Ryukyu history (Okinawan samurai). In Shosin Nagamine's book The Essence of Okinawan Karate-Do, he observes "The forbidden art (Kara-Te) was passed down from father to son among the samurai class of Okinawa."

You mentioned Miyamoto Musashi (full name Shinmen Musashi no Kami Fujiwara no Genshin)? In addition to being cited as the author of the Book of Five Rings (Gorin no Sho), it is also mentioned that this Kenshi (Sword Saint) developed and wrote a manual for an unarmed system of combat. In all his hundreds of fighting episodes, several where he confronted multiple opponents, I wonder if he ever kicked one while he clobbered the others with his wooden sword? (He preferred bokuto over shinken);)

phoenix-MT

roper, dont take it the wrong way but is that how you then got into martial arts? Ive been asking my students the same this week and found some interesting answers.
Anyway about multiple opponents, it is unrealistic (in my oppinion) to train like that as there is billions of combinations and ways in which it could happen giving you a false sense of security when you are actually confronted by 4 or 5 angree drunk meat heads! I think the best way is to sharpen up on your one on one training, fitness and be aware of your surroundings at all times (at the end of the day i cant put 2 people down at once). multiple opponent training is just one on one training but switching to different attackers (usually very quickly!!) hope i didnt offend anyone, no disrespect meant.

ryoishin

Sure you can kick while using the sword but not stab that guy and side kick another at the same time. Sure there may be exceptions. But in general you would try to keep your body away from the opponent, your foot might get lobed off by his sword. But i think i know where your coming from.

The kara te in samurais training is the china ha method as opposed to the empty hand. The kanji is different but the romanji is the same. Im not saying that at later stages samurai did nt study the empty hand karate. You have to be careful with names in japanese jujutsu they are used in different ways by different arts and differently at different times as Im sure you know.

FiannaGym.com

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

Recommend that you review Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-Ryu in all its variations. It's one of the oldest Japanese martial arts. It's an eclectic fighting system where kenjutsu (sword technique) was the major combat method for the samurai skilled in this ryu, which included iaijutsu when first engaging the enemy, but also included other secondary weapons (because samurai just didn't rely on swords), in combination with jujutsu (a weaponless, largely grappling technique). When reviewing the "variations" of this "eclectic" fighting system, in addition to grappling, kicking and other weaponless strikes were sometimes used, although always secondary in importance to the sword.

Another source of interest to this discussion would be the new book by the famous Japanese martial art historian and author Masaaki Hatsumi, Unarmed Fighting Techniques of the Samurai (2008).

Although many Okinawans would not consider themselves Japanese (yet they are citizens of today's Japan), you might want to review the Ryukyu history (Okinawan samurai). In Shosin Nagamine's book The Essence of Okinawan Karate-Do, he observes "The forbidden art (Kara-Te) was passed down from father to son among the samurai class of Okinawa."

You mentioned Miyamoto Musashi (full name Shinmen Musashi no Kami Fujiwara no Genshin)? In addition to being cited as the author of the Book of Five Rings (Gorin no Sho), it is also mentioned that this Kenshi (Sword Saint) developed and wrote a manual for an unarmed system of combat. In all his hundreds of fighting episodes, several where he confronted multiple opponents, I wonder if he ever kicked one while he clobbered the others with his wooden sword? (He preferred bokuto over shinken);)

Exactly my point. I'd never suggest people dont learn how to kick but rather that kicking in a sword fight goes against all of the most basic principles in one on one sword fighting. Of course if you find yourself without a sword, a weapon or what ever then perhaps kicking is used.
But even as you point out, for Samurai, fighting without a weapon meant closing distance and control (like S.T.A.B.). hahaha

Peace

phoenix-MT

yeah i agree with you totaly but i was looking at it more as self defence situation. Unless of course you carry a sword with you at all times....then i would defo be relying on my lung capacity :-)

FiannaGym.com

Wait, you DONT carry your sword with you everywhere you go?

How do you live with yourself?
How do inkeepers know what grade of saki to serve you?

Peace

Roper

phoenix-MT wrote: »

roper, dont take it the wrong way but is that how you then got into martial arts? Ive been asking my students the same this week and found some interesting answers.

You mean cos I got hockeyed? No. Actually, the real reason I got into martial arts (and nobody really believes me when I say this) is remarkably similar to why I was walking home through Swan's Nest and got jumped. I joined my first TKD school because I wanted to get laid. Does that sound shallow? It's true though.

I had just left college and was thinking about boxing again and maybe going back playing football or maybe joining a running club. I was at a loose end really. Then my mate had rejoined TKD and he asked me and a mate to come up and give it a shot. We walked in, the place was full of fit girls, we stayed. I married one of them.

I said that to one of the girls in my gym one night and she was horrified! But hey at least I'm honest most people say "to learn self discipline" and stuff like that but I bet if you delve deep enough you'll find a girl story.

phoenix-MT

lol not usually, so thats how you get the good stuff! :-)

phoenix-MT

haha fair enough mate, good answer

Roper

Yes you might say I followed my moral compass....

HammerHeadGym

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

...It's one of the oldest Japanese martial arts...

It sure is but 1000 years it ain't.

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

...the famous Japanese martial art historian and author Masaaki Hatsumi...

Most famous in martial arts circles for being laughed out of court when he tried to prove his legitimacy.

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

...In all his hundreds of fighting episodes...

Actually, he had 60 duels in which his life was in danger. It's in the introduction to Gorin no Sho

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

...I wonder if he ever kicked one while he clobbered the others with his wooden sword?...

He may have, but he certainly didn't advocate the idea. He mentions in the scroll of fire (chapter 3) that [a warrior] should not concern oneself with learning fanciful techniques but instead devote ones practise entirely to the sword and the business of killing.

As my learned frien Ryoishin alludes to, making a sword attack and a kick at the same time will result in two poor techniques, rather than wipe two opponents out.

challengemaster

FiannaGym.com wrote: »

Exactly my point. I'd never suggest people dont learn how to kick but rather that kicking in a sword fight goes against all of the most basic principles in one on one sword fighting. Of course if you find yourself without a sword, a weapon or what ever then perhaps kicking is used.
But even as you point out, for Samurai, fighting without a weapon meant closing distance and control (like S.T.A.B.). hahaha

Peace

Please tell me why you're replying to a 'Fighting Multiple Opponents' thread while having one on one sword fighting in mind? You may not be wrong for 1v1, but seeing as this is about 2 opponents attacking at the same time.. I'd say rules for 1v1 go out the window.