Waterford Whinge (for and against)

merlante · 11-04-2008 03:07PM

mysterious wrote: »

Your also extremely hypocritical.:p

In your first paragraph you state a motorway should not be built to a city at 50,000 or 70,000

But In the second paragraph you state Waterford has a few towns near by, so Waterford should be favoured a motorway over Galway etc. So your actually going against what you said in the first paragraph.

Your obviously from the southeast judging by this post:D everything I say is probably rubbish, except my facts and some points I've made here

I think I'm clear in my post. Anyhoo.

Yeah, I was saying that not only are you wrong that inter urbans should be built in the order of the size of the cities (because regional population is most important) but that in any case there is (probably) more population in the vicinity of Waterford than Galway. (This is not an opinion, but a reasonably likely truth which I just don't have the figures to hand to prove.) Therefore, there is no compelling reasons (of any kind) to built a motorway to Galway before Waterford. They should be built concurrently anyway, as they are.

I don't think I've argued with any of your 'facts', there is still plenty to argue with in what you say.

merlante · 11-04-2008 03:17PM

mysterious wrote: »

The M9 is not needed. N11 would suited perfectly, or the N8 going along the N78/N79 which is the old Kilkenny-Waterford road. This topic has really outdated.

If there is going to be an inter-urban motorway, it should obviously start at Waterford, and if it left Waterford towards the N11, you would still be cutting out large towns like Carlow and Kilkenny, and towns such as Carrick-On-Suir and Clonmel would be isolated.

Great idea, except if you actually lived in the south east.

The M9 is much needed, as will become obvious when it opens. An N11 dual carriageway (for much of the way at least) is also needed.

I can't believe people are still whinging about a motorway being built to Waterford. It's time for people to grow up and move on. The decision will be vindicated and it was the only proper decision that could have been made anyway. We'll look back in years to come and ask how we ever could have gotten by on the 'back roads' that comprise many of our current 'national primary' roads.

mysterious · 11-04-2008 03:46PM

merlante wrote: »

Yeah, I was saying that not only are you wrong that inter urbans should be built in the order of the size of the cities (because regional population is most important) but that in any case there is (probably) more population in the vicinity of Waterford than Galway. (This is not an opinion, but a reasonably likely truth which I just don't have the figures to hand to prove.) Therefore, there is no compelling reasons (of any kind) to built a motorway to Galway before Waterford. They should be built concurrently anyway, as they are.

I don't think I've argued with any of your 'facts', there is still plenty to argue with in what you say.

Regional populations is the new topic... ffs lol...

All the interurbans are transporting people from one catchment population to the next.

There is so much against your argument.
Point one.

"Your defending the N9 getting priority over the N6 because the like's of a larger town is neaby Waterford?Ok then"

New Ross as an example you mentioned? it's not in the N9 catchment. The N11 will be the most obvious catchment here for New ross. etc. Your argument does not fit your preference of Waterford favoured over other cities in terms of regional populations. It's about what the roads catchment area of population.

Second point to prove your wrong. You say large regional populations are the main factor to build motorways to Dublin, right. Ok. N6/7/9 at present have larger catchment populations than the M9 will ever have due to the length and populations it reaches.

The N7 actually carries 3 regional populations towards Dublin.
For example. The southwest(Tralee, Kilarney) West( Ennis, Shannon) Midwest Limerick city and surrounding counties.

Third Point.
N6/7/8 have much higher percentages of heavy goods and commerce traffic than any of the sother national routes in this country. From a totally fair opinion, it's logical to say the N6 is higher on the list in preference over the N9. NRA even stated the Waterford N9 would be the last of the Interurbans to start. It only recently got ahead, as Mr. Cullen speeded up this corridor over the other roads.

Fourth point
Wateford is still less populated than the other regional cities.

Fifth point
Waterford N9 has the lowest long distance traffic to Dublin of all four. NRA roads needs study has the info

Sixth point
The south east will 3 motorway corridors This will also make the N9 less efficient in terms of taking the entire south east population you claim to say.

mysterious · 11-04-2008 03:55PM

merlante wrote: »

If there is going to be an inter-urban motorway, it should obviously start at Waterford, and if it left Waterford towards the N11, you would still be cutting out large towns like Carlow and Kilkenny, and towns such as Carrick-On-Suir and Clonmel would be isolated.

Great idea, except if you actually lived in the south east.

The M9 is much needed, as will become obvious when it opens. An N11 dual carriageway (for much of the way at least) is also needed.

I can't believe people are still whinging about a motorway being built to Waterford. It's time for people to grow up and move on. The decision will be vindicated and it was the only proper decision that could have been made anyway. We'll look back in years to come and ask how we ever could have gotten by on the 'back roads' that comprise many of our current 'national primary' roads.

OH GOD lol.... I must be wrong so...

Not to mention earliar, you stated a motorway should not be built to a city of 50,000 or even 70,000. Your quote. your so right.
Now You tell "me" or "us" that the M9 should be in fact be built. You know you are very confusing.

invincibleirish · 11-04-2008 04:15PM

merlante wrote: »

If you'd read my post you would recognise that I wasn't arguing for any funding for Waterford Airport -- I was justifying the survival package that was given to it a few years ago. That very small amount of funding (much less than 10 million iirc.) has already paid huge dividends and will continue to.

If I have a gripe it's that every other regional airport has a PSO route to Dublin except Waterford. Not very fair is it? Something more equitable should be put in place so that there is a level playing field between the airports.

I accept that in principle, but what you are ignoring is that every such decision is strategic as well ameliorative. Investment fixes a problem but it also establishes a trend. For example, Dublin will always have the strongest argument for infrastructural investment, but if we always give to Dublin in proportion to its needs versus the rest of the country then we will always drive the development of that city which in turn will create more problems which in turn will drive up the need for infrastructure in Dublin. The cycle is only broken by the introduction of some strategy, which on the surface of it is unfair to Dubliners, but which in the long run is good for the country.

It's the same with any other case where a simple metric such as 'number of vehicles on a road' is used to determine delivery. It's a good indicator, yes, but it's not the only guide. A depressed city and region such as Waterford and the south east could well account for low numbers of traffic on portions of the N9, whereas a more prosperous west could well account for relatively high amounts of traffic. Similarly Cork and Limerick and their respective regions are doing quite well. If this is the case, then strategically it would be a very poor move to punish Waterford and the south east by withdrawing or delaying investment, due to low traffic figures, as this would mitigate against the delivery of further infrastructure in the future, as the gap in performance between Waterford and other cities increases (due on the surface of it to a sensible policy of giving where the need is greatest).

The reason we have a spatial strategy (albeit a poor one) is to acknowledge the fact that if we keep going the way we're going there will be a pattern of development that is not in the national interest.

It's crap, but it's a good idea. The gateways fund nonetheless exists and a lot of money will be spent through it.

Effectively automatic. The infrastructural deficiencies suffered by Waterford and the south east have until recently been acute, and by no means imagined or 'perceived'. There are objective measures of such things.

The will lead to the cycles outlined above where the 'winners' of the 20th century become the 'winners' of the 21st. Cities and regions, with the exception of Dublin, do not have the independent capacity to generate wealth that they once had. Therefore, their development and relative development is guided by government policy -- as it is in most modern countries. Ireland should be planned as most European countries are, and not left to fight and squable for investment on a playing field that is not level.

We need some kind of a spatial strategy. Spending sheerly on the basis of need only reinforces bad planning.

1. you are right PSO flights are unfair, they should be abolished.

2. Dublin has an infrastructural deficit, it is playing catch up, its the economic heartland of the country, it doesnt just deserve priority when it comes to spending, its responsible for there being money to spend in the first place. before dealing with regional desires for development, lets focus on the one key region important to the whole country.

3.Cork & the Mid West have done well economically, the S/E hasnt, instead of lobbying for new Motorways maybe the Waterford folk should start looking for other forms of government support. you seem to follow the western mindset that infrastructure development drives growth, it should be the other way around. look at the Cork Harbour area, tis the biggest heavy industry area on the country, all the MNCs are there, its another few years before it'll get a new DC, the N28.

4. the reason we have such a poor National Spatial Strategy is because of places like Waterford. if we were to have a proper workable NSS, then it would only focus on 2/3/4 suitable places nationally to concentrate development. i seriously doubt Waterford would make the cut.

5. the West isnt prosperous, its a net beneficiary of Social transfers as well.

6. in 21st century Ireland, the East creates most of the Wealth, Cork holds its own and Limerick nearly does.

7. the point is made by a number of posters that numbers on the M9 will increase dramatically when it opens, so figures like 6000 at paulstown will be redundant. but this logic applies to the N20 also. if the M9 increases traffic by 100% and reaches 12,000, thats still less then the 14k using the current N20!, if the N20 became the M20 whose to say how much that 14k figure increase? the N20 is an inter urban as well remember! not all roads lead to Dublin.

invincibleirish · 11-04-2008 04:17PM

mfitzy wrote: »

Indeed, such as the debt Dublin airport are carrying for the building of a new terminal in Cork. Why if this was so badly needed can it not pay for itself

Blame Aer Rianta & Seamus Brennan.

invincibleirish · 11-04-2008 04:28PM

Zoney wrote: »

This is just silly. There are three straightforward reasons for this. Answer? It's a lot quicker, much easier and far cheaper to reopen a short bit of railway from Ennis-Athenry (providing Limerick-Galway intercity and Ennis-Athenry-Galway commuter) than to design and build a heavy-rail underground central connector in the capital, regardless of how essential the latter is (and I will certainly say that it is vital). About the only two things the two projects have in common is that they are rail projects and repeatedly parroted in Dublin vs. West (or the Rest) rants.

Why are they mentioned in the same vein? because they highlight the janus faced nature of irish transport spending policy. the Interconnecter was needed 5 years ago. it is a complex, much needed project. its the key to Dublins suburban rail network, it was floating around as an idea for a few years before it got inclusion in T21.

The WRC is the other side of irish transport policy. a result of group campaigning, political pressure and other methods more to do with astute political campaigning then required rail need.

the Interconnector should have been built, opened & used before the WRC ever got off the drawing board. instead its the other way round.

invincibleirish · 11-04-2008 04:33PM

merlante wrote: »

That's where we're at in Ireland. It is not necessarily where the 'people of the regions' are at. Waterford (for example) cannot expect to get a motorway or a university without fighting for it, using any and all means at our disposal -- (1)we must jump through all hoops and play all political games, not because we want to but because we have to. This is despite the south east being as large and as populous a region (if not more so) than other regions where delivery is automatic. (2)The people of Waterford and the south east would be only too delighted if the government would come up with a fair strategy for how infrastructural funds were to be spent over the next 50 years.

1. overall, this is the problem in this country, the way our politic system works. i despise it.

2. if they came up with a *fair* way to distribute infrastructural funding, Waterford would not like it.

E92 · 11-04-2008 06:21PM

I've been following this thread with interest.

As a Cork person, I've absolutely no problem with Waterford getting their own Motorway to Dublin. Why can't they have one? Anything that tries to stop the population growing in Dublin and encourages people not to live in Dublin has to be welcomed. I'm sure even the Dubs here would appreciate that their city is totally incapable of dealing with dealing with all the people that live in it or in the vacinity. It's bad for Dublin and bad for the country as a whole that we are so completely dependent on one city for the vast majority of economical growth and prosperity.

Personally, I think that even when the Inter Urbans are done there still won't be enough Motorways in the country.

Every other country has a national Motorway network, when the Inter Urbans are done we will have Motorways from the 4 cities and the border to Dublin. And they'll be done 4 years late. We should have been able to get from Dublin, to Limerick, Cork, the border, Waterford and Galway on almost full Motorway since 2006.

That doesn't qualify as a national Motorway network to me.

I do think that Cork is being neglected though for transport.

Why can't we have a full blown Motorway to Waterford, Limerick/Galway, and Tralee as well as to Dublin? Or even a Dual Carriageway? I understand that to Tralee that all of the Dual Carriageway for this road has been built(Ballincollig bypass). And that to Waterford we'll only be getting Dual Carriageway never mind Motorway only to just outside Youghal(and the Waterford city bypass assuming we actually go on that).

And Cork-Limerick will be remaining it's current shambolic standard till 2012 at least.

The Cork-Limerick road is an absolute disgrace for a road that's supposed to be connecting the second biggest city in the republic to the third.

I don't approve of Limerick-Galway being done before Cork-Limerick.

Irish and Proud · 13-04-2008 06:07PM

cargo wrote: »

has anybody got anything to say about the Carlow Bypass itself or the opening date possibly? Think some people on here need to open a new thread and take their debate on the critical traffic volumes for a motorway justification to a SEPARATE thread as it does not belong here.

Agree!

invincibleirish · 14-04-2008 12:31AM

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Agree!

Hey i acknowledged i was bringing the thread way off topic, im sure artful modding would have been able to create a new thread, it would be terribly boring however.

Consensus?

Dont argue with the regions!

mysterious · 14-04-2008 03:15AM

invincibleirish wrote: »

Hey i acknowledged i was bringing the thread way off topic, im sure artful modding would have been able to create a new thread, it would be terribly boring however.

Consensus?

Dont argue with the regions!

LMAO:D @terribly boring

Invincibile get's for that 1+

merlante · 14-04-2008 08:37AM

invincibleirish wrote: »

4. the reason we have such a poor National Spatial Strategy is because of places like Waterford. if we were to have a proper workable NSS, then it would only focus on 2/3/4 suitable places nationally to concentrate development. i seriously doubt Waterford would make the cut.

Waterford is far more strategically located than either Galway or Limerick due to its proximity as a port to Europe. It has always been a significant industrial/commercial centre in Ireland for its history, and is growing strongly again despite a long government assisted decline during the 20th century. It also has a great rail and road network.

Sensible gateways would be: Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford, with Sligo earmarked for the future. In terms of population and location these are the obvious candidates. If you look at other countries with the same population as Ireland, they often prioritise even more centres than these, and their capital is usually smaller than Dublin. Those that think that everything should be focused on Dublin or somehow we will never achieve a certain critical mass should realise that their opinion would be considered eccentric elsewhere.

mysterious · 14-04-2008 04:19PM

merlante wrote: »

Waterford is far more strategically located than either Galway or Limerick due to its proximity as a port to Europe. It has always been a significant industrial/commercial centre in Ireland for its history, and is growing strongly again despite a long government assisted decline during the 20th century. It also has a great rail and road network.

Sensible gateways would be: Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford, with Sligo earmarked for the future. In terms of population and location these are the obvious candidates. If you look at other countries with the same population as Ireland, they often prioritise even more centres than these, and their capital is usually smaller than Dublin. Those that think that everything should be focused on Dublin or somehow we will never achieve a certain critical mass should realise that their opinion would be considered eccentric elsewhere.

LOL Mods get the rolling pin. smack smack.

Limerick is more strategically located than Waterford since its on Ireland's largest and busiest waterway. The shannon Estuary is perfect for a super Euro port, As this is on the cards. On the western seaboard for Transatlantic traffic between America and Europe. The largest crossroad between the regions. Etc etc.. You could say other positiives about Galway, and Other's about Cork. I could go but I'd rather not.

Waterford.. GET OVER IT:p

invincibleirish · 14-04-2008 05:10PM

Should i reply to Merlante? should this thread die? how about a thread in infrastructure about Waterfords role in 21st century Ireland. i will leave the M9 thread alone.

*edit* that thread will also be terribly boring, im not gonna start it!

road_high · 14-04-2008 05:52PM

mysterious wrote: »

LOL Mods get the rolling pin. smack smack.

Limerick is more strategically located than Waterford since its on Ireland's largest and busiest waterway. The shannon Estuary is perfect for a super Euro port, As this is on the cards. On the western seaboard for Transatlantic traffic between America and Europe. The largest crossroad between the regions. Etc etc.. You could say other positiives about Galway, and Other's about Cork. I could go but I'd rather not.

Waterford.. GET OVER IT:p

Irelands busiest waterway? I presume this is a joke or something right

?

Yes lets transport all Irelands exports via the west coast to/from a point further away from Europe and the east coast where the vast majority of the population actually live

And I can see just see Rotterdam quaking in their boots now as this "Europort" on the remote west coast of Ireland is going to cater for traffic between Europe and America :rolleyes:

invincibleirish · 14-04-2008 05:56PM

mfitzy wrote: »

Irelands busiest waterway? I presume this is a joke or something right ?

Yes lets transport all Irelands exports via the west coast to/from a point further away from Europe and the east coast where the vast majority of the population actually live

And I can see just see Rotterdam quaking in their boots now as this "Europort" on the remote west coast of Ireland is going to cater for traffic between Europe and America :rolleyes:

Guess they should all go to that monument of brilliant planning,Rosslare Europort :rolleyes:

road_high · 14-04-2008 05:59PM

invincibleirish wrote: »

Guess they should all go to that monument of brilliant planning,Rosslare Europort :rolleyes:

Well it is the shortest crossing between Ireland and south Wales so I don't see your point really?
Apart perhaps that Waterford and Rosslare ports should be as one?

mysterious · 14-04-2008 07:30PM

mfitzy wrote: »

Irelands busiest waterway? I presume this is a joke or something right ?

The re- opening of the canal waterway's in Limerick and fermanagh will mean it will be possible to travel by water from the Atlantic up to Enniskillen.

Welll it certainly is one of ireland's most important waterways, and is a great asset to Limerick. It certainly is a busy waterway for tourism etc too. In terms of location, it has a major impact on the city in the aspect you describe Waterford been on the east cost to benifet there.

mfitzy wrote:

remote west coast of Ireland

The shannon estuary is not the most remote part of west coast of Ireland's. LOL.
For heaven sake. I'm going to be smarter and not listen to your fallable arguments. Waterford in population and economically is a fraction of what Cork or Limerick powerhouse is . Waterford did not grow to be as prosperous as a result.
Stop this OT on how magnificent Waterford is..

Rosslare port has nothing to do with this topic. it ain't no Europort either. It never will be.

road_high · 14-04-2008 07:42PM

mysterious wrote: »

The re- opening of the canal waterway's in Limerick and fermanagh will mean it will be possible to travel by water from the Atlantic up to Enniskillen.

Welll it certainly is one of ireland's most important waterways, and is a great asset to Limerick. It certainly is a busy waterway for tourism etc too. In terms of location, it has a major impact on the city in the aspect you describe Waterford been on the east cost to benifet there.

The shannon estuary is not the most remote part of west coast of Ireland's. LOL.
For heaven sake. I'm going to be smarter and not listen to your fallable arguments. Waterford in population and economically is a fraction of what Cork or Limerick powerhouse is . Waterford did not grow to be as prosperous as a result.
Stop this OT on how magnificent Waterford is..

Rosslare port has nothing to do with this topic. it ain't no Europort either. It never will be.

Last time I checked the Shannon estuary was on the west coast and Waterford was in the east side of the country- check out a map there.

And don't get me started on your canal link to.....enniskillen. Canal transport in Ireland ended about 200 years just in case you didn't realise yet lol:D:

mysterious · 14-04-2008 07:50PM

mfitzy wrote: »

Last time I checked the Shannon estuary was on the west coast and Waterford was in the east side of the country- check out a map there.

And don't get me started on your canal link to.....enniskillen. Canal transport in Ireland ended about 200 years just in case you didn't realise yet lol:D:

Oh really.... God the weather is not great atm, hope things speed up on the carlow bypass.

Waterford is on the south east..... oh I think this is so boring having to correct childishness-in-NESS.

ipodrocker · 14-04-2008 09:35PM

whats with the waterford bashing, isnt this forum supposed to be talking about m9 and the carlow bypass!

merlante · 15-04-2008 01:50PM

mysterious wrote: »

LOL Mods get the rolling pin. smack smack.

What are you on about you lunatic?

mysterious wrote: »

Limerick is more strategically located than Waterford since its on Ireland's largest and busiest waterway. The shannon Estuary is perfect for a super Euro port, As this is on the cards. On the western seaboard for Transatlantic traffic between America and Europe. The largest crossroad between the regions. Etc etc.. You could say other positiives about Galway, and Other's about Cork. I could go but I'd rather not.

Waterford.. GET OVER IT:p

There is nothing strategic about the locations of Limerick or Galway, and until another country appears off the west coast of Ireland, there never will be.

For as long as there is shipping Waterford will always be strategic. It is a natural gateway for the country in every sense.

merlante · 15-04-2008 02:05PM

mysterious wrote: »

Waterford in population and economically is a fraction of what Cork or Limerick powerhouse is . Waterford did not grow to be as prosperous as a result.
Stop this OT on how magnificent Waterford is..

Rosslare port has nothing to do with this topic. it ain't no Europort either. It never will be.

Limerick is between 1.5 and 1.8 times the size of Waterford depending on whether or not you include Tramore (since the city's population growth has been spread between the two for the past 10 years). Cork is a lot bigger than both.

In this day and age, with the central government in effective control of the distribution of all major infrastructure, FDI, etc., it is the Irish government and not the industry of a city the size of Limerick or Waterford that makes a centre a 'powerhouse'. Waterford Crystal at its peak made Waterford a powerhouse of sorts in the 80's when the country had big problems, but these days, large employers are not indigenous and the success of cities and regions are a national responsibility, and not as much a local or regional one.

This all came out of a topic which had turned into a "Waterford shouldn't get a motorway or be in the NSS because it's small and non-strategic (or whatever)". Well, it's neither small (smaller but not small) in relative terms compared to Limerick and certainly Galway, and it is strategic. 'Magnificent' is subjective.

This off-topic, I know, but so are the posts I am replying to!

MarkPH · 15-04-2008 03:58PM

mysterious wrote: »

Regional populations is the new topic... ffs lol...

All the interurbans are transporting people from one catchment population to the next.

There is so much against your argument.
Point one.

"Your defending the N9 getting priority over the N6 because the like's of a larger town is neaby Waterford?Ok then"

New Ross as an example you mentioned? it's not in the N9 catchment. The N11 will be the most obvious catchment here for New ross. etc. Your argument does not fit your preference of Waterford favoured over other cities in terms of regional populations. It's about what the roads catchment area of population.

This is a ridiculous point by someone who obviously doesnt know the area. Not only would it serve New Ross, but it would serve the surrounding areas in Wexford, notably south west Wexford.

Most people in Ross would already use the N9 by travelling towards Borris and meeting the N9 at Bagnelstown. But, as part of the road development, there is a new bypass linking the M7 towards the N25, and therefore missing Ferrybank, so most people from New Ross would go this way to be on the motorway.

Know the roads and areas before making sweeping statements to cover your argument.

mysterious · 15-04-2008 04:44PM

merlante wrote: »

Limerick is between 1.5 and 1.8 times the size of Waterford depending on whether or not you include Tramore (since the city's population growth has been spread between the two for the past 10 years). Cork is a lot bigger than both.

Off topic. Don't start adding near by towns ffs..... we been through this. tramore is not and never will be part of Waterford's urban area.

merlante wrote:

This all came out of a topic which had turned into a "Waterford shouldn't get a motorway or be in the NSS because it's small and non-strategic (or whatever)". Well, it's neither small (smaller but not small) in relative terms compared to Limerick and certainly Galway, and it is strategic. 'Magnificent' is subjective.

Wher do read your crap. No i didnt say Waterford should not get a motorway.

I said that some of the funds could be put into the likes of the N20 for the time being. In present Waterford still have the option of using the upgraded N11.

merlante wrote:

This off-topic, I know, but so are the posts I am replying to!

In fairness you brought up the most of the off topicness, especially of late. ffs

mysterious · 15-04-2008 04:56PM

merlante wrote: »

What are you on about you lunatic?

enough with abuse, sort it please.

merlante wrote:

There is nothing strategic about the locations of Limerick or Galway, and until another country appears off the west coast of Ireland, there never will be.

For as long as there is shipping Waterford will always be strategic. It is a natural gateway for the country in every sense.

Yeah whatever...:rolleyes: Waterford port is no hong kong port... God this is so redicoulous.

You need to clearly explain your notions of strategic.... Limerick is strategic. Cork and Galway are strategic too for other such reason as so is Waterford likewise. Belfast is in the far north east but it's still strategic, so your argument is falluable.

Waterford hasn't really benifeted as much as the other's cities, in terms of aspects relating to strategic locations to grow and develop. If Limerick was not a good strategic location it would not have grown to a city it is today.

you've brought this off topic again. No point pointing fingers at everyone else.

So Anyhoo... Has the entire M9 started. Has the contract been signed for the castletown Stretch. Seen a bit of excavation going on on some parts. Not sure if its the actual building of the route.

mysterious · 15-04-2008 04:59PM

MarkPH wrote: »

there is a new bypass linking the M7 towards the N25, and therefore missing Ferrybank

Sweepin error here.

MarkPH wrote:

Know the roads and areas before making sweeping statements to cover your argument.

Ok. new Ross will still have two direct motorways to Dublin. dance around the bush with my lack of intelligence if you like.

Anyhoo this is boring.

Victor · 15-04-2008 05:56PM

Split from Carlow M9 thread.

Bards · 15-04-2008 07:01PM

mysterious wrote: »

Has the entire M9 started. Has the contract been signed for the castletown Stretch. .

Never heard of a Castletown on the M9??????? - and yes the entire M9 is now officially under construction

Waterford Whinge (for and against)

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