In the Name of the Fada

janeybabe wrote: »

What I think is great about the show is that he's saying what everyone else is thinking.

"I, Des Bishop, am an unfunny knob".

zuchum wrote: »

janeybabe seems to have a liking for tis show/des bishop...i have a slight feeling you might be preaching to the converted.



EDIT:damn...thats unintentionally witty...

May I say that I am thoroughly thoroughly confused! Muinteoir's comment wasn't directed at me. I just replied to it!

I like that Des Bishop is saying how freaking stupid the Irish curriculum is (because I'm a teacher and I have to teach it) and I like that someone is making an effort to learn Irish and that it's being watched by a lot of people.

As for Des Bishop, he's hit and miss, but I find a lot of what he's saying about Irish hilarious.

And as for the 'converted'.....

zuchum wrote: »

...it seemed funny at the time..which of course was 02:07 in the morning...so i think I can be forgiven...

LOL fair enough!

Its the best thing going:D

watching it is kinda making me want to learn irish, even though i hated it last year in the leaving. anyone else feel this?

I think we all have to say 'maith go leor' to Des for his 'In the name of the Fada' series. It may increase the learning of Irish, but it may have little real effect.

One problem that kids have in school is that they do not get the opportunity to immerse themselves in the language for a full year. They live in an english world, getting a cupla focal at school everyday, being forced to learn Irish litreature which has nothing to do with language development. If immersed in a language, people will learn by osmosis. The other aspect of Irish is that it is a minority language on a global scale, so is economically of little value, although not defunct completely as it is cultural.

Authorities should take the hard dcision to reduce the importance of Irish in schools, to stop forcing people to learn the liteature, and to teach it as a language, not as a subject matter which is more litreature than spoken. That way, we all gain: we will have more people speaking it, more people not wasting their time learning irrelvant stuff and idiomatic grammar, and instead spending more time on international languages in primary level and 2nd level.

Des, unlike many kids, had the opportunity to learn Irish for a full year. Kids nor most of the population get that opportunity, nor as a nation should we do that. There is nothing wrong with Irish but we do have to think of its usefulness.

The high-browness and the usage of Irish as a class distinction in gael scoilleana, especially in Dublin, is socially abhorrent. Irish is being used as a social separator, rather than it being used for inclusiveness. There are 100's of now adults who abhor Irish as they were forced to go to gaelscoilleanna or galetacht's in the summer or millions of people who just got sick of the subject at school as it was forced down their throats.

Múinteoir wrote: »

Irish isn't actually a hard language to learn, if taught correctly.

In fact, I've seen it stated more than once that English is considered one of the hardest languages to learn by learners

Interestingly, Des and gaelige speakers intersperse many of their sentences with english words, and get grammar arseways which is acceptable in many areas. However, if you did this in school you would be marked wrong and corrected immediately! If you spoke like this or even like Ros na Run in the Dail or in your classroom, you would get stern looks of disapprovement.

The other thing about many Irish speakers and teachers, is their dictatorapproach. The teach Irish through Irish and without context. How does that work? Badly. Very badly in fact. It leaves kids behind with no way to catch up.

Also, Irish gets unfair bias which is I believe against EU laws of discrimination of it were challened in the courts. For example, I think its still true that if you answer a Leaving Cert maths paper as gaelige, you will get 10% extra. That is criminal in my opinion. If you are a Garda, and you are in or near a Gaeltacht and you get the teanga whatever its called, you will get I understand 10-15% extra salary. That is discrimination against english speakers which should have the same upholding in law according to our constitution - the same!

The debate on Irish in Ireland is a big one and an emotive one, as no-one will ever forget the 10 hrs of Irish they did each week of their 13-14 years in school.

Redspider

ps: lame lame lame was a joke on leim leim leim, I suspect.

Das Kitty wrote: »

I learnt Irish through Irish, I also learnt French through French.

Best way to learn IMO.

It used to be the way that you'd get 5% of the mark you didn't get extra for a maths paper answered in Irish, it wasn't that big of a benefit really! I think they're doing away with it now though.

It was 10% of the mark you didn't get for other subjects that involved more writing. Science was a pain because there were no Irish language textbooks for leaving cert when I was doing it.

+1

I was surprised to learn that a girl who is, like me, training to be an Irish teacher, was taught Irish through English! As a result she isn't very confident when speaking it.

The bonus marks make very little difference unless you do very badly.

And as regards science, I had the book in Irish for the Junior Cert and it was so much easier! The words were easier than in English.

Sure send all the kids to the Gaeltacht for a year! Immerse them in the language!

One thing that Des's efforts have done is to raise (re-raise) the debate on Irish and how it should be taught, etc.

Our discussions here probably should be moved to the Gaelige forum, but perhaps that is reserved for Gaelige only, or ????

professore wrote: »

I agree the uptight attitude to grammar and syntax in relation to Irish should be relaxed - at least to Junior Cert level.

I have never met anyone from a gaelscoil who hated Irish ... quite the opposite in fact. On the other hand, I know lots of people who went the conventional route and hated it (including myself). If the syllabus involved speaking Irish exclusively and oral was longer and 50% of the total grade things might change. I once went for an interview in the Flemish speaking part of Belgium and had French on my CV which I did to honours LC standard and for 3 years at university. The interviewer noticed this and immediately launched into a detailed technical discussion in French ... needless to say I was lost. On the other hand I speak fluent Flemish, and learned the basics in 3 months of evening classes where the teacher only spoke Flemish. It works and is the ONLY way to learn a language. Learn the grammar later. The way languages are taught here is scandalous. If you want to drive a car do you spend 10 years learning about how the engine works? Of course not.

The grammar should be relaxed also at LC level because Irish speakers (who are not Hitlers) will still understand.

I have met people who went to gaelscoil and whilst not hating Irish out and out, they wish they were never at a gaelscoil and instead spent more of their time doing other more useful worldly things, and they hate the fact that they were sent there. They made a specific choice NOT to send their kids to the a gaelscoil.

Like you, I've also learned a foreign language by immersion, and not with any evening lessons which were painful to be honest. I would hazard a guess that you learned more by living in the country and not your evening lessons.

Languages are living things and need to be used in context of their use. Des has a much better chance of learning useful Irish in 10 months (=2000 hrs or more) (plus its Irish with english words thrown in and grammar incorrect) than someone that spends 14 years being forced to learn Irish and taking major tests on its poetry, short stories and "novels", where everyday after those 2 hrs those kids are then living in an english-speaking environment. Their skills in Irish deteriorate each evening, think of a half-life analogy, or climbing a ladder - 2 steps up, 1 step back or indeed 2 steps back. Each summer (with no practice), it can be all the way back again nearly to the bottom. Then, when you finish school, the half-life process kicks in and in about 4 or 5 years 99% of the Irish that you did know at LC level is gone, if you are not in an Irish-speaking environment, which is the case for the vast majority.

I know that when I lived in France for 2 months, I picked up more French than the 5 years I did in secondary school. But it was immersion, French was all around me 24x7, no-one I worked with spoke english, it was contextual. Un Cafe au lait, sil vous plait. Many of the words I could speak, swear words included, I hadnt a clue how to write properly. A la vache. And no-one on the street was asking me about a French novel, or meaningless short stories, or caring too much about the grammar, etc. Its called living.

> Bad teachers! I teach Irish in an English speaking school and while I throw in the odd bit of English here and there to make sure the students, in particular 1st years, understand, I teach mainly through Irish. It's up to the teachers to implement immersion in the classroom.

The problem is the curriculum (is Fios Feasa still 'taught'?) and the impossibility of learning such material without its correct context. How do you explain a new word in Irish when you come across it in Fios Feasa? There are no pictures, there is no context. If a teacher explains it in Irish only, how can they be certain the exact meaning of it and its use gets abosorbed by all the class (not the best 10%). They cant. Hence, I will bet you that all the class still have a dictionary in their bags to translate. The curriculum and how Irish is taught is bad. Its not taught to teach people to speak as much as they can. Its taught as an academic subject. If we got rid of that aspect perhaps it would help.

But, the main question still remains, should we really be pushing our population to learn Irish? Yes, we need to keep the language alive, its important for our culture and has value, and everyone should have a cupla focal, but it should be optional, not forced, not compulsory (which may be changed in fact).

Merci, Slan agus Beannacht,

Redspider

ps: that beer ad using the wrong Irish words, cailin bainne, sharon ni bheolain, etc, also generated 'interest' in Irish, ironically, the lad in the ad would be typical of the irish many would have when aged 22-25 or whatever. Look at that ad to see the ultimate product of 14 years of Irish lessons!

Seriously a World Cup or something is needed to get everyone back with the ''Tiocfaidh are Lá'' attitude.

The last thing this country needs is the "Tiocfaidh ar La" attitude.